New Racist Israeli Law

[BrewMaster]

from the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/31/international/middleeast/31CND-MIDE.html?hp

Proposed Marriage Law Called Racist Moves Forward in Israel
By JAMES BENNET


JERUSALEM, July 31 — The Israeli parliament voted today to block
Palestinians who marry Israelis from becoming Israeli citizens or residents,
erecting a new legal barrier as Israel finished the first section of a new
physical barrier against West Bank Palestinians.

Supporters of the legislation called it a necessary bulwark against
infiltration by terrorists. "We are in a state of war — not with the
English, or the Americans, or the Dutch, or the Slovaks — we are at war with
our neighbors, the Palestinians," Gideon Sa'ar, of the dominant Likud Party,
told the parliament in debate before the vote. "It's a tragic reality."

Proponents also called the law a way to preserve Israel's Jewish majority.

Opponents of the law called it a racist measure that threatened to divide
thousands of families or force them out of Israel. Roughly 1.2 million of
Israel's 6.7 million citizens are Arabs, and they are far more likely than
Israeli Jews to marry Palestinians.

"It cannot be that because of the actions of one, or 10, or 20, that a
population of one million will be punished," said Ahmad Tibi, an
Israeli-Arab member of parliament. He called the law "blacker than black."

After occupying the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the Six-Day War of 1967,
Israel began permitting Israelis who married residents of the territories to
apply for their spouses in Israel under a program of family unification.
Last year, the Israeli government froze any such requests. Today's
parliamentary action, which effectively puts the government's freeze into
law, will lapse after a year if it is not renewed.

Yuval Steinitz, a parliamentary leader from Likud, accused the governing
Palestinian Authority of encouraging Palestinians to marry Israeli Arabs and
move into Israel. "It's not a humanitarian case — or not only humanitarian —
but a deliberate strategy by the Palestinian Authority to change the
demographic balance in Israel in order to destroy us," he said in a
telephone interview.

He said that if, as envisioned by a new peace plan, a Palestinian state is
to be created in the West Bank and Gaza, then "Palestinians should be
unified there."

Orna Kohn, a staff attorney for Adalah, a legal organization for Arab
minority rights in Israel, said her group would petition the courts to
overturn the law as violating basic rights. She noted that it did not apply
to non-Palestinian foreign spouses of Israelis, and she said that it was
also aimed at Israel's Arab citizens.

"You have an Israeli citizen who is an Arab, and you won't allow him to live
with his spouse?" she said. "If this is not racism, then perhaps we need to
have a new definition."

Tensions have been growing between Israel's Jewish and Arab populations over
the course of the conflict with the Palestinians, which began in September
2000. Today, Israeli education authorities shut down an Israeli-Arab day
care center in northern Israel that they said was extolling "suicide acts of
Palestinians."

The government did not disclose precise figures for how many Palestinians
had become Israeli citizens or residents, or had submitted applications to
do so. Israeli officials said that 49 Israelis had been killed in some 20
attacks that to some extent involved Palestinians who had entered Israel
through family unification.

The vote was 53 in favor and 25 against, with one abstention.

The Israeli Defense Ministry announced today that it had finished the first
85 miles of a barrier it says is intended to stymie Palestinian attackers
from the West Bank. Roughly 200 people, including Palestinians, Israelis and
Western activists staged a protest in Qalqiliya, a West Bank town of about
40,000 that is surrounded by the barrier, a network of fencing, concrete
walls, guard posts and ditches.

The protesters threw paint on a 25-foot-high wall that runs along the
western side of Qalqiliya, and spray painted it with "Free Palestine" and
other slogans. A fence brackets the other three sides of the town, with only
one exit, a heavily guarded Israeli checkpoint.

"We are living in a big prison," said Mahmoud Farahmeh, 46, a Qalqiliya
resident.

The Bush administration is pressing the Israeli government to divert the
planned path of the barrier so that it consumes less West Bank territory.

Also today, Israel solicited construction bids to build 22 new homes in a
settlement in the Gaza Strip. The new peace plan, the road map, plan calls
on Israel to freeze settlement construction, but Israel says it must keep
building to accommodate "natural growth."

[BrewMaster]

More info here too:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030731/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_mixed_couples_2


they've had 20 incidents of terrorism out of 100,000 marriages. that's 0.02%. hardly a reason for this law.

[Cantacuzene]

Typical knee jerk reactionary garbage.

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Typical knee jerk reactionary garbage. What's "knee jerk reactionary" about protecting your people? How many more bombs have to go off in Israel before its ok for them to respond? The Palestinians bring all of this upon themselves. Until they can quash those elements in their society that refuse to accept Israel's right to exist, I have little sympathy for them.

[attgig]

Originally posted by zenbooty
Until they can quash those elements in their society that refuse to accept Israel's right to exist

or..
until the Israelis can kill off all the racist palestinians. :hmm:

[johnnymk]

Originally posted by attgig


or..
until the Israelis can kill off all the racist palestinians. :hmm:

Shhh..don't say those kind of things. It's not politically correct thinking.

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by zenbooty
How many more bombs have to go off in Israel before its ok for them to respond? The Palestinians bring all of this upon themselves.

um, getting married brings no threat of bombs! get a clue. you can talk about security, and while I may not agree with methods, i can understand the fear and reasoning. but this is in a whole other league zenbooty.

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by johnnymk


Shhh..don't say those kind of things. It's not politically correct thinking.
political correctness...:bigmouth: :kawaii: :heh: :puke:

...i hate it...

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by zenbooty
What's "knee jerk reactionary" about protecting your people?

A better question is, what does banning marriage between two people do to protect your people? Call me crazy but I am against all human rights violators, especially the ones who receive tremendous amounts of american tax payer money to enforce laws which would be unconstitutional in america. There was a word for that in the old days: tribute. I don't know to many Americans who like paying tribute.

[zenbooty]

Their not banning marriage. They're passing a law saying marriage to a Palestinian is no longer getting him citizenship and a ticket into the country. Unorthodox, but so are terrorist methods. This is a war. War messes with people and practices when it hits at home.

[sbp]

Just 2 days ago Israel gave permanent resident status to 'Black Hebrew' community (http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/world/6402911.htm). That hardly seems like the act of a racist country.

[whitak24]

it is possible to accept black people and still harbor racists feelings about other groups of people.

i'm not saying israel is or isn't racist, i'm just pointing out that the "black hebrew" example has little to do with the marriage law.

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by sbp
Just 2 days ago Israel gave permanent resident status to 'Black Hebrew' community (http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/world/6402911.htm). That hardly seems like the act of a racist country.

well, considering that any foreigner (except Palestinians) can marry an Israeli and get citizenship shows me that they are singling out Palestinians as a whole. that is why I say it is racist. and i never said it was a "racist country" but a racist law. since we are on the subject, i think so many of israels laws are racist that i would classify them as a racist country, but then again, there are many countries that i would throw on that list along with israel. but that is neither here nor there. my point is that this law is not a general immigration law, it singles out Palestinian marriages, which is horsesh1t, IMHO.

[johnnymk]

Originally posted by BrewMaster


well, considering that any foreigner (except Palestinians) can marry an Israeli and get citizenship shows me that they are singling out Palestinians as a whole. that is why I say it is racist. and i never said it was a "racist country" but a racist law. since we are on the subject, i think so many of israels laws are racist that i would classify them as a racist country, but then again, there are many countries that i would throw on that list along with israel. but that is neither here nor there. my point is that this law is not a general immigration law, it singles out Palestinian marriages, which is horsesh1t, IMHO.

So they are racist. How does that affect your life?

Sounds like you're just jumping on the age old bandwagon looking for excuses to condemn the Jews and/or Israel.

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by johnnymk


So they are racist. How does that affect your life?

Sounds like you're just jumping on the age old bandwagon looking for excuses to condemn the Jews and/or Israel.

think about it before you speak. I am Palestinian and I have family over there. any other dumbass questions?

[johnnymk]

I didn't know you were Palestinian. Regardless, the same question applies.

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by johnnymk
I didn't know you were Palestinian. Regardless, the same question applies.

the same question applies? how does this affect my life? are you brain dead or something? that's like asking an American abroad why they would care about the goings-on in the US.

and as far as a bandwagon to condemn Jews and/or Israel, I'll condemn anyone that needs condemning! they are passing racist laws. is it a crime to criticize Jews just because they were persecuted in the holocaust? the Armenians were persecuted by the Turks and no one gets up in arms about criticizing them. I have much sympathy for Jews who are living in the hell of terrorism in Israel. No question that I despise suicide bombings and those who orchestrate them. i don't need "excuses" to condemn Israel. their governement has given me too many concrete reasons to condemn them. I have many beloved Jewish friends who join me in condemning stupid-ass policies of Israel. on this particular issue of the marriage law, many many Jewish groups are speaking up saying that it goes too far. ISRAEL IS NOT PERFECT! JEWS ARE NOT PERFECT! when will people realize this and stop freaking out everytime they are criticized? PALESTINIANS ARE NOT PERFECT! we need our own criticism too to make sure our leaders are kept in line. I am not anti-semitic, so don't even bring that up. This law is outrageous and i need no excuse to condemn it.

[whitak24]

Originally posted by BrewMaster
ISRAEL IS NOT PERFECT! JEWS ARE NOT PERFECT! when will people realize this and stop freaking out everytime they are criticized?
:stupid:

preach it, brew.

personally, i don't delve into the whole israel/palestine debate that much. i don't have any "horses in the race", so to speak, and i tend to concern myself with other problems in the world (not that i think the situation there is unimportant, but i just am not that interested in it).

however, i get sick and tired of this attitude that israel is off-limits when it comes to criticism. i think they should be held to the same standard as anyone else: if they do something good, then applaude them, if they do something stupid/wrong/misguided, then call them out on it.

[sbp]

This is really an incentive for the Palestinians to get their act together, get a state by peaceful means and deal with their extremists who are a cancer on their own future. Its sad much time has already been wasted. :disa: But once the Palestinians get their own state, they won't have to deal with those racist Israelis. Yes, and to top it off every Arab should leave Israel to teach those rotten Israelis a lesson! http://sbp777.homestead.com/files/icon10happy.gif

[johnnymk]

Originally posted by whitak24

i think they should be held to the same standard as anyone else: if they do something good, then applaude them, if they do something stupid/wrong/misguided, then call them out on it.

Well, if there were a standard, I would love to know what it is. If it was a standard based on the Arab world, it wouldn't be very high. As a matter of fact, the subject of an Arab marrying a Jew would more than likely be laughed at.

The last time I checked, there were 21 countries doirectly or indirecty surrounding Israel. Most of the countries were 97% to 99% Muslims. I would love to know if freedom of religion or freedom of anything exists in the majority of those countries. I would also like to know how Jews and Christians are treated in those countries.

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by sbp
This is really an incentive for the blacks to get their act together, get a state by peaceful means and deal with their extremists who are a cancer on their own future. Its sad much time has already been wasted. :disa: But once the blacks get their own state, they won't have to deal with those racist Americans. Yes, and to top it off every black should leave America to teach those rotten Americans a lesson!


Originally posted by sbp
This is really an incentive for the Armenians to get their act together, get a state by peaceful means and deal with their extremists who are a cancer on their own future. Its sad much time has already been wasted. :disa: But once the Armenians get their own state, they won't have to deal with those racist Turks. Yes, and to top it off every Armenian should leave Turkey to teach those rotten Turks a lesson!


Originally posted by sbp
This is really an incentive for the Jews to get their act together, get a state by peaceful means and deal with their extremists who are a cancer on their own future. Its sad much time has already been wasted. :disa: But once the Jews get their own state, they won't have to deal with those racist Germans. Yes, and to top it off every Jew should leave Germany to teach those rotten Germans a lesson!

It's amazing--and very sad--that many people can't see how similar their arguments are to some of the worst in history. :2far:

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by johnnymk
The last time I checked, there were 21 countries doirectly or indirecty surrounding Israel. Most of the countries were 97% to 99% Muslims. I would love to know if freedom of religion or freedom of anything exists in the majority of those countries. I would also like to know how Jews and Christians are treated in those countries.

Since I haven't really been keeping up with current events, I can't speak for today, but historically speaking, most of the Islamic countries were far better about religious freedom than their Christian counter-parts. For instance, if you were Muslim in Spain in the 1500's, you'd be lucky to make it out of the country alive... literally, in one piece. On the other hand, if you were a Christian living in one of the Islamic states, the only penalty you'd have to face was paying higher taxes than if you were Muslim.

The only knock against freedom in Islamic countries has been in reference to women's rights. But when you look at our own histories, it hasn't been much more than 40 years that women really started to become the equals of men, so... :shrug:

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by BrewMaster


um, getting married brings no threat of bombs! get a clue. you can talk about security, and while I may not agree with methods, i can understand the fear and reasoning. but this is in a whole other league zenbooty.

It is very possible that palestinians might start praying on single women who have been looking for a man for a while weather because they have low self asteem, or mentally ill, damn ugly, once infiltrated the marriage makes them citizens which gives them a free-to-go-in-card, and what's to stop them then?

Whatever has to be done is being done, NO PASSARAN!!!!

[topane]

Originally posted by Burzhui
It is very possible that palestinians might start praying on single women who have been looking for a man for a while weather because they have low self asteem, or mentally ill, damn ugly, once infiltrated the marriage makes them citizens which gives them a free-to-go-in-card, and what's to stop them then? Holy crap! It's just like those Russian mail-order brides!

[whitak24]

Originally posted by johnnymk


Well, if there were a standard, I would love to know what it is. If it was a standard based on the Arab world, it wouldn't be very high. As a matter of fact, the subject of an Arab marrying a Jew would more than likely be laughed at.

The last time I checked, there were 21 countries doirectly or indirecty surrounding Israel. Most of the countries were 97% to 99% Muslims. I would love to know if freedom of religion or freedom of anything exists in the majority of those countries. I would also like to know how Jews and Christians are treated in those countries.
that's fine and great. i never held up fundamentalist islamic states as a model, did i?

somehow there is this impression that because israel is more democratic and perhaps less of a military state than the countries around it, it should get a free pass.

like i said, i think it's great that they have more democracy than saudi arabia or iran or UAE. but they still have failures in their country, just like we do. and there's nothing wrong with a rational discussion of these failures.

ladogaboy, i don't have statistics (and i'm too lazy to look), but my impression is that in a majority of islamic countries in the middle east (saudi arabia, iran, etc), the right of free exercise are very limited or nonexistant. it seems that perhaps they are less tolerant than they were in the past.

[BrewMaster]

Originally posted by Burzhui


It is very possible that palestinians might start praying on single women who have been looking for a man for a while weather because they have low self asteem, or mentally ill, damn ugly, once infiltrated the marriage makes them citizens which gives them a free-to-go-in-card, and what's to stop them then?

Whatever has to be done is being done, NO PASSARAN!!!!
i would like to give this argument the benefit of the doubt, Burzhui, but honestly, the stats say otherwise. there have been 100,00 such marraiges and no more than 20 "leading to terrorist involvment." that is anything from meeting with terrorists to blowing oneself up. that's 0.02%, so your argument appears not to be supported by the facts.

and as for "NO PASSARAN," what does that mean?

[Ladogaboy]

Originally posted by whitak24

ladogaboy, i don't have statistics (and i'm too lazy to look), but my impression is that in a majority of islamic countries in the middle east (saudi arabia, iran, etc), the right of free exercise are very limited or nonexistant. it seems that perhaps they are less tolerant than they were in the past.

I don't doubt that. Many countries have become even more xenophobic in the last century.

[zenbooty]

Originally posted by BrewMaster

i would like to give this argument the benefit of the doubt, Burzhui, but honestly, the stats say otherwise. there have been 100,00 such marraiges and no more than 20 "leading to terrorist involvment." that is anything from meeting with terrorists to blowing oneself up. that's 0.02%, so your argument appears not to be supported by the facts.From the point of view of BrewMaster, sitting safe at home in the US, the stats don't support the action. 20 out of 100,000 marriages have led to the potential infiltration of terrorist elements. Too small a percentage to warrant a draconian measure. From the point of view of Sharon and the rest of the Israeli government, the stats certainly do support the action. They are elected to protect their people, who have endured periodic physical attacks and steady psychological attack for a number of years. Nothing has worked up to now to stop the attacks. The stat says 20 marriages have led to potential terrorist infiltration. That's 20 marriages too many in the eyes of those responsible for defending against it.

[slaus]

I guess thats why any hope for peace in the middle east is just a dream. The hatred between the peoples of the region is so intense that any attempt will ultimately be doomed to fail. Either side will always believe they gave up too much in negotiations because it's gotten to the point where absolute victory will be the only thing that satifies one side.