Suckage: Daily dose of "truth"...

[pennypinch]

OK, first off, I hate smokers. I can't stand 'e, puffin away on their filthy pestilence sticks. But those truth radio ads really piss me off. In particular, the one that says, "*rrip* this is for sticking me with a habit that costs me $140 a month". You know what, numbnuts, you stuck YOURSELF with that habit. No-one stuck a gun to your head and stuffed a cigarette in your mouth. This BS about cigarette companies coercing us to smoke just doesn't hold any water with me. The very thing that makes us human, supposedly, is free will. The folks running these ads take an insultingly low opinion of one's ability to choose.
I say, we make imperfect decisions all the time. We do dangerous, risky, hazardous things all the time. Yet because this is "big business", we perceive it to be subject to whatever treatment we so desire.

Wow, this'll probably open up a can o' worms.

[Timotheus]

Even those among us who are "less well informed" know the risks. I would hazard that there is not a single smoker in America who doesn't know smoking is risky. The fact is that they are addicted. They don't have the willpower to stop. Like most other addictions, it is more mental than physical. They're hooked and until they decide to unhook themselves, they will continue dying painful deaths.

[target]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Timotheus:
Like most other addictions, it is more mental than physical. They're hooked and until they decide to unhook themselves, they will continue dying painful deaths.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

agreed. it's in their heads. and pennypinch, i wasn't standing up for the whiners who come complaining after they've smoked for years and then blame the big tobacco companines. it was their choice to smoke, as it is our choice to deny sympathy.

[att]

oh man, i couldnt agree more. people who smoke need to take 100% of the responsibility for their habit. next thing you know we'll have people suing pot dealers for selling them weed that caused some physical ailment even though its an illegal substance. i can just see a lawyer saying that it doesnt matter if it was illegal or not, the fact is my friend here bought what he thought was a healthier strain of marijuana and he cannot be held responsible for his ailments.

[target]

it is true, media is extremely influential in this society. look at the bullsh!t that's on tv, this monica and elian crap. and the sad part is, after seeing it enough, lots of people actually begin to care about these asinine issues.

the truth ads are, in my opinion, good. there needs to be some balance against the tobacco companies. they aren't intended for the people smart enough to realize that smoking is stupid. they're for the people, teens and preteens, that aren't informed of the dangers/consequences of the habit.

[pennypinch]

Yes, I understand that tabacco companies have been...less than honourable in their intentions. But this marketing their product as cool...doesn't EVERYONE do that? Why in the world would I market my product, be it tobacco, alcohol, clothes, cars, furniture, anything, as UNCOOL?
To clarify my earlier post, I think some of the truth ads are quite good, especially the ones on TV with someone just holding an LED panel. What really chaps my ass is that they try to portray cigarettes as something that happens to you, something someone is doing TO you, and that simply is not true. We've all made choices, including the choice to smoke or not, and I don't think I'm at all special or unusual as a person that was offered a smoke, and just decided not to. It is simply a question of people taking RESPONSIBILITY for their actions, and I really see these truth ads as another step in the removal thereof.

[target]

but pennypinch, some people don't want to take responsibility for their actions, exercise freedom of choice or even think for themselves. surrendering all of these qualities seems sad to those who have decided that they will be the ones to shape their own futures, but there are people who want to be led around on a leash and told what to do. just take a step back and look at the majority of people who surround us on a daily basis. it's a shame. http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/frown.gif

[pennypinch]

In which case, don't bellyache when you reap the results of your actions. Whether you choose to be accountable or not, you will get your just deserts eventually.
Frankly, the worst thing is that people actually take pity on these saps. These are the people running these truth ads, trying to convince us that smokers are in some way victims. Victims, my ass. Be angry that tobacco kills, that cigarettes are carcinogens. Don't tell me about people in their 30's that are dying of lung cancer because I have no sympathy; they definitely knew the risks, and are now their choices are catching up, end of story.

[AJ]

my friend smokes cigarettes through his "rear end" to avoid lung cancer. but when he farts, its like a tobacco explosion...

http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/tongue.gif sorry that was uncalled for http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/smile.gif

[quest577]

ok,, if you follow my thesis, you (being this witch doctor would definetly be liable), a co. is not required to gauge the intellect of it's clientel, And it should not make a product that relies on that. But regardless, PEOPLE JUST DIDN'T KNOW BACK, THEN!......or whatever, maybe they did, i give up:rolleyes:

[pennypinch]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by quest577:
ok,, if you follow my thesis, you (being this witch doctor would definetly be liable), a co. is not required to gauge the intellect of it's clientel, And it should not make a product that relies on that. But regardless, PEOPLE JUST DIDN'T KNOW BACK, THEN!......or whatever, maybe they did, i give up http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ha ha, target, we've driven him into nonsensical typing and poor punctuation. Rack up another victim for the Pinchinator! http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[quest577]

I mean http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[target]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by quest577:
ok,, if you follow my thesis, you (being this witch doctor would definetly be liable<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

guess i should get out of the medical field then? http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[quest577]

i have not yet begun to fight!!...welll maybe i have...whatever, i'm still right

[target]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pennypinch:
Ha ha, target, we've driven him into nonsensical typing and poor punctuation. Rack up another victim for the Pinchinator! http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFLMAO http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/biggrin.gif to quote clueless...

score one for the proliferators of bad grammar!



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strength and honor

[quest577]

I think the main reason that all of the tobacco companies have just lost this multibillion dollar lawsuit is b/c the people who were named as the plaintiffs began smoking years ago. Years ago there were no warnings on cigarettes, people thought it was cool to smoke and nobody said otherwise. Smoking was permitted everywhere and everybody smoked. During that period of time, the only people who knew smoking was unhealthy was the tobacco companies, taht is why they are liable.

[att]

oh, come on, everyone has known that smoking was no good for you for ever. how can breathing smoke be good for you? dont you cough when your house is on fire? people just didnt care as much in the old days, now everyone wants to live forever.

[quest577]

Att, that is entirely not true. Do you honestly think people had death wishes back in the 40's and 50's? Just imagine the things that are bad for you now that you won't know about for another 20 or 30 years. You must be youg, b/cI have been told by enough people who smoked back int he day, that nobody knew a thing

[quest577]

and...i can't really say, b/c my house has never been on fire, thank god

[pennypinch]

Let's see, that means I should sue cow producers, for jacking up my cholsterol count all these years, and definitely the aesbestos manufacturers, my ciliatosis is really acting up today, and I'll probably take glass manufacturers to the cleaners, considering flying glass after the Oklahoma bombing cut tons of people. Glass manufacturers should have known that blowing up buildings could cause cuts, and should have started producing shatter-proof Plexiglas YEARS ago! http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
Quest, spare us the "back in the day" excuse, people may have been naive, but certainly not stupid. Sucking on a burning...well, anything, has never been considered a health benefit.
Additionally, the ads I was talking about are painting new smokers as victims. I cannot fathom a reason why I should feel sorry for someone who voluntarily chooses, in the face of overwhelming evidence, to ruin their lives. The tabacco industry is a business, and they are no longer culpable for anthing from here on out, in my opinion.

[quest577]

First of all, I'm not exactly sure who a cow producer is...
Second of all, yes you should definetly sue the asbestos producers for manufacturing carcingoenic material for years
Third of all, the glass that shattered in the Oklahoma city bombing was a result of a persons actions taken out upon the glass rather than the direct result of the product itself.
I do however agree with your point on the commercials, and cigarette smoking nowadays, people do have the knowledge necessary to make an educated decision on smoking. I f a person begins smoking today, it is most definetly at their own risk. I guess those commercials are just a warning, a reminder if you will (and yes they are annoying). I'm sure there have been no lawsuits involving people who began smoking after the warnings came out.
But I just can't accept the fact that you don't think the tobacco co's. are liable for misleading people prior to warnings. Ok...maybe you or I wouldn't have been fooled, and it's obvious to us that a flaming stick has gotta be bad for you. But, there's tons of stupid people out there, they believed the commercials that made cigarettes out to be the coolest thing. Imagine a person with low self esteem....now here's this product that you can use to make you look cooler...and everybody else is doing it...nothing wrong with it.....now thats an innocent victim!

[target]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by quest577:

Third of all, the glass that shattered in the Oklahoma city bombing was a result of a persons actions taken out upon the glass rather than the direct result of the product itself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

actually, cigarettes and tobacco alone are not dangerous products. they become dangerous as a direct result of persons actions taken on the tobacco; setting it on fire that is http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/biggrin.gif



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strength and honor

[quest577]

Actually, I take back the part about asbestos, b/c I don't think the asbestos manufacturers knew that their product was harmful, if they did, then yes they are liable

[quest577]

target...the main difference is taht the cigarettes intended use is to be lit, the glass's intended use is not to shatter

[pennypinch]

Innocent victims...reeks of apoligism to me! Do you realize that citizens of the United States are, far and away, the most lawsuit happy people in the known universe? Do you want to know why? Because we have accepted that someone with money should pay for another's stupidity. The McDonad's coffee incident, the Oprah/ostrich farmer case, the list of repulsive court decisions runs longer than this post will allow.
I certainly never want to be the object of someone's vengent stupidity complex (i.e., I choose to act stupidly, and it's not my fault). If we are going to tolerate a person suing for his own lack of self-esteem, we are in a much worse position than we all thought.

[pennypinch]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by quest577:
target...the main difference is taht the cigarettes intended use is to be lit, the glass's intended use is not to shatter<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You've clearly missed the point: granted, the glass is not supposed to shatter, but neither were cigarettes intended to cause cancer. These lawsuits presume that companies be liable for all risks current and yet undiscovered. That's ridiculous.

[quest577]

it's not ridiculous when they have knowledge of the fact, and that they are deceiving people. I feel that that is the real problem, if the manufacturers of cigarettes or any manufacturer for that matter, knowingly deceives the public, then they are automatically liable. Come on man, if you've ever even taken 1 law class then this is pretty basic stuff

[target]

wait a tick. there's deceiving and then there's having the common sense to see a risk. the whole controlled fire sticking out of my face is, in my opinion, risky. are you suggesting that the risk is shadowed by the advertising that focuses on the desire to be cool or fit in? what if i went to buy a new car and one of my options was not to have a brake system installed; which would reduce the sticker price of the car. so i say to myself, 'self, this is a pretty good deal i'm saving $$$.' the risk is overshadowed by my desire to save money? therefore, even though the car company knew that i would end up injuring myself they 'deceived' me by distracting me with the fact that i could save a few hundred bucks?

i don't buy it. 'deceiving' or not. our society has become pretty lazy when it comes to common sense because our leagal system allows them to blame anything and everthing that happens to them on someone else.

sorry i'm way OT now...

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strength and honor

[pennypinch]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by quest577:
if you've ever even taken 1 law class then this is pretty basic stuff<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I haven't taken a law class, making this less basic, philosophically http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/smile.gif
While the deception involved certainly clouds the issue, the fact remains that "first generation" smokers are attempting to substitute common sense with monetary compensation. The shirkin of responsiblity has become a secondary issue to tobacco's deceit. Should the fact that they lied about some things make them liable for all things? I don't think a company's misstep should critically cripple the rest of their ability to do business.

[pennypinch]

target, you beat me to it!! http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[quest577]

Damn, does everybody hate me...I wish I had some allies in this....anyway
1) Target, Let's say that when you bought a car, brakes were an option, but they weren't really popular yet, people didn;t know alot about them, but the salesman said that cars w/o brakes were perfectly safe, don't worry, you won't hurt yourself, all the cool people drive w/o brakes. Then yes, this salesman is definetly liable for misleading you.

2) Ok, Pennypinch....when Columbus said the world was round, nobody believed him, they said he was crazy, that was b/c nobody had ever explored the entire world before, it was new to them. I think you are taking the point of view of somebody who has always known cigarettes are bad, people just didn't know "back in the day". Really, my parents, who certainly are not ignorant or dumb, and happened to have never smoked, say that people has absolutely no idea that cigarettes were really harmful. And second, or third, whatever, there is no way you can consider murder a misstep. The co's. misstep was a deliberate attempt to profit off people who 's lives they were basically taking away.

Ok...wassup now..who wants a piece of me http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/cool.gif

[pennypinch]

Ah, but that presumes that people actually thought they were completely harmless, quite a stretch in rationality. I mean, sure few may have known the scope of harm, but it'd be difficult to convince me most people assumed no risk at all. That simply doesn't wash with me, and if they were willing to undertake some risk i.e., endanger some of their life, I find it roughly comparable to the companies lying about some things.

Right back atcha, bi-atch! http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[quest577]

Well...Pennypinch, I guess we've reached the point where we can recognize that actual point that we disagree on. I feel that people were not aware of any harm that might be caused by smoking, and you feel that there was at least some risk that was undertaken by the early smokers. **whew**
Of course we've solved nothing, but my fingers are definetly sore

[target]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by quest577:
Ok...wassup now..who wants a piece of me http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/cool.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

first of all, WAAAZZZZUUPPPP?!?! and, me me me! i want a piece! http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

quest it's not that i hate you, it's that i hate it when people blame others for consequences that were not specifically spelled out for them. people who don't use their heads piss me off.

for instance, let's pretend it's midevil times. you come to me with a headache because i'm the kingdom's doctor. i tell you, 'oooh it looks bad, your headache is caused by evil demons. take this sharp pointed stick home with you and stick it through your head, then pull it out. this will allow the evil spirts to drain from your head.' now let's also say, that i tried this technique on others and know that it doesn't cure the headache (well i guess it kinda does http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/smile.gif ), but i recommend this to you anyway. sure i deceived you, but you stuck a freaking stick through your head! who's really at fault?

i understand that you're more compassionate to these 'innocent victims' than i and you're main crusade is against people getting screwed by corporations. that's fine and good, i just wish people would use their heads for something besides whining.



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strength and honor

[target]

okay, pennypinch, you beat me that time http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/smile.gif

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strength and honor

[quest577]

Ok target, I haven't read your full reply, but I just wanted to give you props on the analogy........

[pennypinch]

And for a guy that works at MSDW, you sure are hard on corporations... http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/smile.gif

[target]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by quest577:
I guess we've reached the point where we can recognize that actual point that we disagree on. **whew** Of course we've solved nothing, but my fingers are definetly sore<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so does that mean we can all be friends now http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/smile.gif

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strength and honor

[att]

dont even try to say poeple didnt have any idea that smoking was bad for you. there's no way poeple were looking at other smokers coughing and spitting up tar and thinking that it must just be a coincidence. i mean back in the day, cigarettes weren't even filtered, you know people were coughing up som sh!t. and besides that, nothing that smells bad is good for you.

[renots]

Can we really blame older generations who were forced by draft to go war and had to smoke to mentally survive day to day boredom, brutality, and slaughter?

We must have compassion for those who were sent out to fight for our freedoms.

:0)

[carpenoctem]

Just a little side-bar I thought I would add...remember the Just Say No campaign? Yeah, everyone thought it was pretty cheesy...but since it has stopped teenage smoking has risen like 25%...and the kids who never got ANY Just Say No propoganda haven't even reached smoking age yet...it will be interesting to see what happens. I know everyone in my grade thought the JSN thing was pretty cheesy, but looking back, it actually may have worked...so the Truth ads may do some good, as long as they are raising awareness of the danger. And it seems, the 90s way to do it is to attack the corporation...in the 80s it was targeted more at the young audiences who may be influenced...I guess we'll see what happens. I just hate the fact that I go to the mall and watch a 20 year old mother standing outside in 5 degree weather smoking a cigarette while her young daughter whines "mommy, i'm cold" and the mom says "in a minute, mommy needs this". 'Tis a sad world.

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And furthermore, I believe that Carthage should be destroyed.

[hapoo]

NOW WHERE IS COLOSSUS WITH HIS LONG ASS ESSAY TO DISPROVE EVERYONE??????? http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/confused.gif

[renots]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chosenfool:
SHEEPS.

They didnt think, they just followed. Either by sheer ignorance or pure stupidity (knowing that it doesnt taste good at all, and that it IS harmfull to your health...oh, they knew it way back then already...)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh like Mountain Dew, Clariten, and ridiculously sized SUV's are really good for us. Take in a longer perspective. Things can be 20/20 in hindsight but pretty damn confusing when you are stuck right in the middle of crazy situations where everyone else is confused too. Kinda like trying to get sane in the looney bin.

:0)

[pennypinch]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by renots:
Oh like Mountain Dew, Clariten, and ridiculously sized SUV's are really good for us.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't put any stock in that whatsoever. Most college students are aware that MD is the most highly caffinated drink on the market (after Jolt), and the urban legends about Yellow 5 are widely accepted. Drug companies are required to publish the known side effects of their products. From there, it is the responsibility of the user and his doctor to determine the drug's fitness for use, just as it should be for any consumer product on the market. The same exists with SUV crash tests. Additionally, I don't see whose taste should be trusted to determine gradations of vehicle size. Frankly, many, including me, find the extra room that an SUV affords to be much more useful than a feul-miserly Ford Fiesta.
To get back on topic, just because the there were no required rules of disclosure in the 40's, common sense would dictate that inhaling smoke during a fire is deadly (and don't try and tell me they didn't know about smoke inhalation). The logical extension would be that inhaling smoke of any variety would be harmful. My point is that consumers in the 40's may not have had perfect information, but their capacity for choice lay in their choice to ignore common sense.

[renots]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pennypinch:
My point is that consumers in the 40's may not have had perfect information, but their capacity for choice lay in their choice to ignore common sense.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What common sense? Heck, even doctors recommended smoking back in the day; it was the perfect cure for stress back then. Are you going to tell all the people that are presently on 'acceptable' means of stress relief (like Zoloft or Prozac) that they were Sheep 40 years from now when the real risks of these miracle cures becomes well known?

Hey everyone can be a perfect quarterback on monday morning; its a bit harder when your'e caught up right in the middle of the Game.

:0)

[renots]

Remember, we're only just starting to make our way out of Ignorance Addicted Culture.

;0)

[renots]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by target:
you come to me with a headache because i'm the kingdom's doctor. i tell you, 'oooh it looks bad, your headache is caused by evil demons. take this sharp pointed stick home with you and stick it through your head, then pull it out. this will allow the evil spirts to drain from your head.' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd go kick that doctor's #ss for giving me such crappy advice then maybe he would stop being such a fool

:0)

[renots]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pennypinch:
Frankly, many, including me, find the extra room that an SUV affords to be much more useful than a feul-miserly Ford Fiesta.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I hope you enjoy all that room when gas hits $15 a gallon. Or don't you think its common sense that gasoline will be getting significantly more expensive as the years go by ? I just don't want to hear any whining when it does happen because, hey, everyone who was alive and thinking must have known it was going to happen right?

;0)

[renots]

My point is that consumers in the 90's may not have had perfect information, but their capacity for choice lay in their choice to ignore common sense.

[renots]

Fluoride (http://www.sightings.com/general3/fluo.htm), nuclear byproduct that it is, is no good for you either

:0)

[dark helmet]

Only in America can you sue others for your own stupidity. If you are dumb enough to do something without knowing why and it kills you, you deserved it. Darwin was right. Even with all of our human glitz, we are still a part of nature, and we still have the elementary principle of "survival of the fittest" to live by. My grandparents quit smoking cold turkey after 20 years because my parents were pregnant with me. "Addiction", in my opinion, is a fancy word for lack of self-control.

P.s. I smoke cigars and occasionally a pipe, but not regularly. I used to smoke cigarettes, but stopped after a few months because i realized that I did not like anything about them other than the slight buzz they gave me. Now I enjoy different good flavors and a slight buzz in time spans so far apart that it is not a danger to me, so that I have few health concerns. So be careful when you say that you hate smokers, because there are severla different kinds.

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"I ALWAYS HAVE COFFEE WHEN I WATCH RADAR!!!"

[This message has been edited by dark helmet (edited 08-14-2000).]

[pennypinch]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by renots:
Well, I hope you enjoy all that room when gas hits $15 a gallon. Or don't you think its common sense that gasoline will be getting significantly more expensive as the years go by ? I just don't want to hear any whining when it does happen because, hey, everyone who was alive and thinking must have known it was going to happen right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I, as is every other SUV driver, am aware that SUV's consume more gas than most cars. Will that drive the cost of gasoline up? I'd be surprised if the relatively small population of SUV owners single-handedly increased the cost of gas. Additionally, yes, I'm aware that gas prices will continue to increase: like any fixed amount of a resource, the scarcer it becomes, it more expensive it will be. That is common sense, and frankly, this example is so far removed from a smoker's situation that it's farcical.

[Speedfreak]

http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net/smokin.gif = http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm/buck.gif
much earlier than normal.

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§=-Sp34dFr34k-=§

[reagancajun]

There was an old Paul Newman movie (might have been CAT ON A HOT TIN ROOF) from the 50s, in which he was offered a joint. He replied, "No thanks, I'd rather get cancer the old-fashioned way." So much for not knowing the risks back then. They all knew the risks: family members hacking up a lung, friends dying long, painful deaths from lung cancer. I think it's all a crock. I agree with Penny that no one stuck the cigarette in your mouth and forced you to puff. That was your own dumb choice. You have to live (or die) with it. My one gripe with the tobacco companies is the fact that they did (by their own admission) manipulate levels of nicotine to get consumers hooked. That is where they are responsible for certain addictions. This business about producing ad campaigns to target the young, however, just doesn't jibe with me. This is why: we are producing a nation of idiots who are unassuming and who don't have the good analytical skills God gave a pig. Teach your kids to be savvy consumers; the kind who don't believe everything they see on an infomercial or billboard. That's the ticket to preventing childhood smoking. My own incentive not to smoke was a lot better: it was my way of rebelling against a family where EVERYONE smokes. It's so yucky to smell like smoke all your life. I love my family, but couldn't wait to move away to college where I could tell people not to smoke in MY home. AAAAHHHH....clean air. Glad I can breathe it in.

[renots]

I recommend Rational Recovery (http://www.rational.org/recovery/) anyone who truely wants to end an abusive relationship with a substance.

Much better than AA/NA (http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000493.html)

From their website:

Rational Recovery suggests that any substance user or abuser learn about RR concepts before doing anything else or getting help. The reasons are simple:

Even though you have an alcohol or drug problem, there is nothing wrong with you that prevents you from abstaining.

Planned abstinence is a skill. Anyone can learn it. You may not yet know how to abstain, but you can surely learn.

Whatever problems you may have, they are most likely the result and not the cause of your addiction. When you abstain, they will probably fade or disappear.

Most people (over 70%) who quit substance addictions do it on their own.

The cost of getting help in time and money is great, to you, to others, and to society.

Getting help usually means extensive participation in recovery group activities instead of directly learning the skill of planned abstinence.

There is little if any research showing that getting help helps.

Recovery groups can aggravate addictions and cause new problems.

Given the choice, most people prefer independent problem-solving.

Quitting a substance addiction is much easier than it appears to be, or is made out to be.

...

:0)

[renots]

http://www.rational.org/recovery/DPI.html

The Declaration of Personal Independence (DPI)

...

The latest concept incorporated into AVRT is the DPI, or the Declaration of Personal Independence, which we recommend for recovery groupers getting started in Rational Recovery and working toward a Big Plan:

"I will never, ever, attend another meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous or any other recovery group organization, nor will I obtain professional services of any kind, for the purpose of ending my addiction."

Making this commitment is nothing more nor less than accepting personal, moral responsibility for your own conduct.
That's all it is, but neverthess usually produces a cringing feeling, similar to that which accompanies execution of a Big Plan. This distress signifies the Beast's fundamental attachment to AA; AA is the embodiment of the Beast, and the DPI vividly illustrates this fact.

...