Debate Christianity [Archive] - HP Deals, Computer Coupons And Bargains

RoniMan

05-29-2000, 02:13 AM

well, here's my two cents.
i am presently a buddhist, and this is my philosophy on ALL religions:

(now, this is much easier for me to explain in person, but since i can't i'm trying my best to make this clear, so please bear with me.)

look at the part of your body that's attached to the end of your wrist. what's that called? "hand" right? well, i know nothing about french, so can someone tell me what's the word for "hand" in french? but before you do, let me tell you. that's WRONG! because no matter what you say, i know that it's called "hand", so it doesn't matter what you call it in french. it's WRONG! there is only ONE right word for it is, and always is, "hand".

so, here's where you jump out of your chair, get your glocks, get your cars, and do whatever you can to tell me that there's more than one way to say "hand". whether it's in french, or spanish, or korean, or any language that you know). so who's right?

for those that speak spanish, they'll tell me that since i'm in southern california, spanish is like the main language here, next to english, therefore, spanish can't be wrong. they'll tell me that in spanish, it's "mano".

for those that speak chinese, they'll tell me that since one of the largest group of the world's population is the chinese, the chinese people has got to know what they're talk about, and in mandarin, it's "so".

for those that speak french, they'll tell me that since i don't know any french, how can i say that the french word is wrong? in french, it's " " (can someone help me fill in the blank?

then, just to back up everyone's theories, each person will take out their dictionary, and look up the word in their language to show me that i'm wrong.

so who's wrong here? NOBODY. am i right that the body part attached to the end of your wrists is called the "hand"? YES. but am i right to assume that that's the ONLY way to say it? NO. is it true that in spanish it's called "mano"? YES. is it true that in mandarin, it's called "so"? YES. will those words appear in each of the respective dictionaries? OF COURSE! so who's to say that this way is wrong or right? it's about perspective.

that's how i feel about christianity. (and if this offends anyone, i apologize. this is from MY own experiences, which is that the MAJORITY of the Christians i've met and dealt with has this point of view.)
i see "god" just as a 3-letter word. it's what's inside your heart that counts. and that's called something different to each different individual. and each person will have their own specific "dictionary" to look up, for the christians, it's the bible, for the buddhists, it's the scriptures, for the jews, it's the torah, for the muslims, it's the koran.

so just like in your own language, you know with absolute certainty that the way to say "hand" is " " (fill your own blank). you know that your own religion is 100% "right". but you don't know enough about other languages to say that their way is wrong. and if you don't know anything about the other religion, i don't think you have the right to say that it's wrong either.

see, if we look at religion as a whole, it's all basically the same thing: this life is not perfect, there is a more perfect life, and the way to the more perfect life is by following the path of a specific teacher/prophet/whatever you want to call it. if you ask someone from another religion what they believe, i bet you they believe in basically the same thing. don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, and do good things (ok, satanists excluded, i don't know. i could be wrong here too) and if you follow those basic principles, then you'll go to a better place.

see we're all the same. we just choose to call it something different. so instead of seeing the differences, why don't we look at the similarities, and it'll be a step towards a better tomorrow.

(this is something i've put a lot of thought into, so please let me know what you think about it. i'm thinking of writing it out and submitting it somewhere or something. but i need to know if that makes sense.

revil

05-29-2000, 03:01 AM

woah, long post, but good post. I agree with you roniman

Apex

05-29-2000, 03:51 AM

Actually, that doesn't work with 1 religion, Christianity. Christianity must either be right (and everyone else wrong) or someone or everyone else right (and Christianity wrong). This is simply because of the claims that Christianity makes. Jesus said "I am the ONLY way". With a statement like that, there is no wiggle room, either He was right or He was wrong. Period.

Another common misconception about Christianity is the virtues. Christianity says that heaven is everlasting togetherness with God, and Hell is everlasting separation from Him. How do you get to live eternally with this Christian God? One of two ways:

1. Measure up to His standards. Meaning: live a completely spotless life.

2. Choose to be forgiven of the mistakes you did make.

According to Christianity, there is no other way. So leading a "good" life or doing "good" things or being basically "good" or "moral" plays no part in making it to heaven.

So basically it comes down to this. Someone is wrong. Sound divisive? It is. I'm not trying to make it any more so; it simply is. Christianity can only be wrong and social/cultural relativism right, or social/cultural relativism wrong and Christianity right.

RoniMan

05-29-2000, 11:43 AM

Well, apex, I think you just backed up what I was saying.

Let me ask you: when you were in grade school learning english, or whatever primary lang you learned. I don’t think that the teacher said, “well, this is an “orange”. Oh yeah, it’s also known as a “juee-tzu” in mandarin, and in spanish it’s “naranja” they just taught you one way. so, now you will go down the rest of your life knowing for absolute that it’s an “orange”. However, as you grow, and learn, you will find out that there’s more than one way of calling it an orange. So do you doubt the english way? No. But it will also broaden one’s horizon to know that there’s more than just one way of saying it. And, at the same time, still have complete faith in the english way.

I’m not here to argue with you about the finer details. I’m not here to argue at all. So I’m asking you not to go into specific details, but rather, see the bigger picture with me. You’re right, in christianity, there is no room for anything else being right. But let me ask you this, do you really think that my religion, or ANY religion says, “well, you’re a buddhist, but if you want to freelance as a muslim…go right ahead”?

What you said about the virtues. Actually, they’re not unique. I’m talking about the fact that when you typed them out, you had the word “God” in your mind. So let’s use the virtues that you typed, and if you put the word “Buddha” in your mind, you have basic buddhism virtues. (eg. Virture #1? In your mind, measuring up to “His” standards…. By “His” you mean God’s, right? Well, that’s exactly the same in buddhism, but instead of thinking “His” as “God’s”, we think it’s “Buddha’s”.)

What I’m trying to say is this. What you call heaven, in mandarin it’s called “tien-tang”. So, if I go to “tien-tang”, does that mean I don’t go to heaven? No, I don’t think so. so let’s take it another step. How do you know that when we call nirvana, that it doesn’t mean the same thing? Just b/c Buddha isn’t spelled “G-O-D”, how do you know it doesn’t MEAN the same thing? If you know nothing about buddhism, or any other religion, how do you know that we’re not similar?

Most, not all, christians think I’m trying to say that there’s no differences in these religions. So they try everything possible to point out the little differences. But they never bother to listen to what I’m truly saying: “yes, there are differences, and if you focus on ONLY the differences, how does that make you any different than the people who sees only the differences between black people and white people?” so now people think that I’m attacking them. That’s is NOT true either, I’m trying to say, “see the differences, b/c that will help distinguish btw you and i. But ALSO see the similarities, b/c that will unite you and i.”

I honestly believe in all religions b/c I think that they’re doing the same thing: trying to make us all better beings. (the methods may be a bit different, but the GOALS are the same). I’m not asking you to believe what I believe. I’m only HOPING that you will try to understand what I believe. B/c only then, will people see, that in the end, we ALL believe in the same things. (That means, for the christians, we’re already ALL “christians”)

sbp

05-29-2000, 02:57 PM

Don't even get me started on those backstabbing, never won a war French socialist weenies! http://www.vr-zone.com/forum/smilies/freak.gif


<A href="

[This message has been edited by sbp (edited 05-29-2000).]

Snatchface

05-29-2000, 07:43 PM

According to Christianity, Jesus must be the most egotistical, conceited and arrogant man that ever lived. Assume I were to start an organization, let's say The Humanitarian Club, which consisted of all nice people who went around and did good things all the time and never sinned (whatever I define sinning as). However in order to get into this club you had to worship me and accept me as your lord. How well you think that'd go over?

Isn't that essentially what Christianity is? A club of people who purport to do good and who are required to worship one man in order to join the club and get the prize? If god were REALLY good and perfect, and not an egomaniac as it seems, would he really need to require people to worship him? Wouldn't he want good people in heaven regardless of their beliefs or willingness to grovel???

I think that's the part I understand the least about Christianity.

Apex

05-29-2000, 11:09 PM

I think the misunderstanding is at the point of holiness. If we have a God that is perfect, then it would be against His nature to be in the presence of imperfection. However, He has given us a way to be forgiven of such. It is our choice to accept it or not. The most common mistake I see is viewing the situation from the point of human morality. When you are trying to get into God's realm, whose yardstick do you think you have to measure up against? Other humanity or God's? God, by definition is perfect and to live with Him, we must measure up to His standards. Luckily for us, we have a God that is merciful enough to offer us forgiveness if we fail. We only need to accept His offer.

Apex

05-29-2000, 11:11 PM

Oh yeah, actually there are a lot of religions that claim that they are but 1 of many ways. You'd be surprised.

German Superman

05-30-2000, 12:45 AM

snatchface- it's all about not being selfish. That's how you can stand it. Don't be selfish.
And it's not worship me or die. it's you're going to hell! Luckily I have sacrificed myself to save you. Now you have a choice. You choose.

kimchicowboy

05-30-2000, 03:02 AM

hey roniman, i would like to disagree with your comment about not really a right/wrong with religions. actually, i agree on that, but would i would like to say is that there is more truth in Christianity than in others. But don't get me wrong. I'm not posting with the intentions of sounding like "i'm right and you're wrong." just my two cents. but can someone answer me this question? It seems like a lot of non-Christians try to refute Christianity when they have a lot of misconceptions about it. i would say that most people learn about other religions, i.e. buddhism, hindu, judaism, etc, in school, but to keep Christianity out of it, they don't talk about it. therefore many people do not fully understand it. then how can they try to refute when not properly educated? i hope i don't sound contradictory because i have learned aobut other religions, read books, and listend to speakers. thanks! =)

------------------
"I think. Therefore, I pray."

CornMonkey

05-30-2000, 04:09 AM

just to reply to snatchface's last post:

when you describe your club like that, then no, i would not like to join. after all, what do i benefit from it? ...nothing. besides, i don't even know you. aside from being around super friendly, perfect people, why should i join your club, let alone allow myself to worship you...? (no offense to you, of course...just trying to make a point)

but there is a difference b/w your club and this "club" we call Christianity. with Christianity, i believe that Jesus paid a debt that no human could possibly repay. because of this, we get to have a RELATIONSHIP with God--both here on earth and in heaven. Jesus died so that we may live...eternally.

contrary to what you say about God being egotistical, etc., Jesus taught a life of humility. He taught that "the first shall be last and last shall be first." essentially, God doesn't force us to be bowing and repeating chants 24/7 to worship Him. Christians also worship in not only obeying the will of God but also by serving others. in Matthew 25:40, Jesus says "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."

and yes, God not only wants good people but all people to enter into heaven. Romans 3:23, 24 says "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." you see, there is only one way to God--and that's through Jesus. and once this is accepted into one's heart, one can't help but to worship God BECAUSE He is good and perfect.

but for more professional opinions on this and other matters, i suggest you check out this site:
http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~jys/veritas2/radownloads.html

veritas is latin for "truth." recently, UCLA held a Veritas conference with speakers discussing topics such as:

"A Testable Creation Model"
"Does God Exist and Does It Matter?"
"Is there only one way to God?"
...and others.

the speakers of these topics are considered to be leaders in their respective fields. fortunately, each topic is downloadable on real audio format (hope you have a fast connection).

[This message has been edited by CornMonkey (edited 05-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by CornMonkey (edited 05-30-2000).]

Snatchface

05-30-2000, 05:37 AM

Nice argument, but it doesn't hold water. According to Christianity, I could be perfect - nevere ever do anything "wrong" (as the Christian Church defines wrong), spend my whole life volunteering and generally being "righteous" (a truly awful word). However, if I still did not accept Jesus as my "lord," then I am damned. Can you deny that?

I could be a perfect "Christian" my whole life and on the day before I die renounce Jesus as my lord and spend eternity in hell.

If Jesus were truly humble why would he state that his opinion was the only corect one? Why would he demand that people worship him or go to hell?

And why oh why would anyone want to spend eternity with someone who thinks that they are perfect and their opinion is the only right one??? I can't stand being around people like that for even a few minutes in this life!

speedracer120

05-30-2000, 08:56 AM

That's the beauty of it all Snatchface. It is impossible to ever think yourself as perfect unless you are delusional. Everyone is subject to criticism from within and without. Christians believe that God will forgive our sins, and that is what Christ came to earth for. He sacrificed hiself so that anyone who would believe in him would recieve a free ticket to paradise.

prtlewd

05-30-2000, 11:56 AM

There is only one god and all religions stem from and revolve around him(no gender). You can use or believe whatever and whichever and whomever you please but you are always going to the same entity, so let your heart be the middleman. All religions of the world have more in common than they do differences and those diffs are all man thought and taught. Man has changed this original teaching of Oneness and developed out of numerous mutually antagonistic sects. You don't believe if you don't can't communicate with God directly. This subject cannot be debated successfully if you are not open minded, which most people are not, because most people are not independent thinkers. God is above our petty arguments and the only eason he wants us to worship him is as aknowledgement not to hurt his creatures and help each other instead so as not to help satan win his argument that he can lead us to hell more easily than God can lead us to heaven. But that will never happen so don't worry about it.

Chief Broom

05-30-2000, 05:23 PM

One question about Christianity. If it is all about forgiveness and mercy, then why did God kill so many people? An entire city was destroyed for being wicked. God even destroyed the entire world with a flood. Almost all of Leviticus is about punishments for sins. They usually involve stoning, burning, some sort of death. Is this forgiveness??? I know that a lot of the bible is about forgiveness, love, etc. But not ALL of it. Death and destruction do not equal forgiveness and mercy in my mind.

If we are to live up to God, and his ideal I think this is our basic plan. We should tempt some people with an unexplainable rule. When they break the rule, we will take away everything they have and punish them for all of eternity ok? If someone makes us angry, by not believing that we are their masters...then we should set them on fire!!! Or better yet, we will drown them for 40 days. Hey...this is sounding alot like the slavery in the Old South....UT OH!

CornMonkey

05-31-2000, 02:14 AM

all major religions have similarities, yes. these similarities can be praying, fasting, doing good works, dietary restrictions, etc. and of course, there are differences. but the one and only noteworthy difference is that Jesus said something that no other religious leader ever said... in Luke 5:24 Jesus said "the Son of Man has power upon earth to forgive sins."

no matter what we can do to try to "feel better" about themselves, we cannot cleanse ourself of our own sin. only Jesus can do that. in fact, He already did. and if there was any other way to for us to have a relationship with God, then i'm sure Jesus would have laid them out all on the table for us to choose.

"It is constant torture for me that I am still so far from Him whom I know to be my very life and being. I know it is my own wretchedness and wickedness that keeps me from Him." --Mahatma Ghandi

prtlewd

05-31-2000, 01:52 PM

In all those stories of death and destruction of a certain people, in every sacred book, it has been mentioned that they were given several chances, by sending them prophets and books, to mend their ways and ask for forgiveness but they refused and so the Almighty decided to make an example of them for us to learn from. He still hits us with his wrath but some people can't place it because Gods stick doesn't make a sound.

Snatchface

05-31-2000, 02:14 PM

Speedracer,

That's the beauty of it??? Forgive me, but I see absolutely NO beauty in the fact that according to your religion a multiple axe murderer/rapist can make it to heaven and a generally good person will burn in hell - all determined by belief in Christ. That's not beautiful...its horrible. I can't believe people actually think that way.

Your parents, whom (I assume) love you and raised you and would give you anything they had will be roasting in hell if they do not believe in Christ while you will be living it up with Son of Sam and Jeffery Dahmer if they repent on the day before they die. Very, very far from beautiful. And certainly not the work of a "good" god.

Chief Broom,
Strong point. Also more truth about the cruelty and egotism of the christian god. Of course all that bad stuff happened to people who did little more than mess up their own lives (adultery, etc.) whereas today we have much worse people and their god does nothing. Just more scary stories to frighten people into reaching for their wallets when the contribution bowl comes their way.

revil

05-31-2000, 03:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snatchface:
Your parents, whom (I assume) love you and raised you and would give you anything they had will be roasting in hell if they do not believe in Christ while you will be living it up with Son of Sam and Jeffery Dahmer if they repent on the day before they die. Very, very far from beautiful. And certainly not the work of a "good" god.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

dude, don't be such an ass.

CornMonkey

05-31-2000, 04:45 PM

a common misconception that people have (including Christians) is that people think one sin is worse than the other. sure, in our society, lying isn't as bad as rape or murder.

but to understand the very nature of God, we must first understand that we are all sinners and that all sin is the same in God's eyes. God is holy. and God can't be holy if he's surrounded by things that aren't holy (holy by definition means "set apart").

it saddens me to think that my non-Christian friends/co-workers (some of whom are even nicer than some Christians that i know) will indeed go to hell. the point of the matter is that we can't live our lives trying to do good expecting to go to heaven automatically. our judicial system has punishments to fit the crime. with God, there is one judgement to fit one crime. and unless you're forgiven, you're going to face judgement whether or not you're a boyscout or charles manson. a bit unfair? yes... but if you look at the history of what God has tried to do for mankind according to the bible, it is due to our own stubborness that forces us w/ the circumstances we have today.

God is a God of love and mercy AS WELL as a God of wrath and judgement because He is a Holy God. let me ask you this: if God were to intervene in the our lives today the way He did in the days of old, would you recognize God's "message" and turn to Him for forgiveness?

revil

05-31-2000, 06:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by CornMonkey:
it saddens me to think that my non-Christian friends/co-workers (some of whom are even nicer than some Christians that i know) will indeed go to hell<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is my beef with people like you. You think your all special thinking your going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell. It's not your place to say who goes where. it's your god's place to say who goes where. So stop saying who is or who isn't going to hell, it makes you look like an idiot and hurts other peoples feelings.

Here is my beef with that philosophy of thinking: Your being a dumbass putting yourself on a pedastal. your human, your imperfect, you've sinned. by your little statement there, your going to hell. so shut up you ignorant, hypocritical bastard.

pennypinch

05-31-2000, 06:10 PM

Reading through this topic and that gargantuan whale back on the Deals page, I am struck by how rhetorical and scripted some of these responses seem. For better or worse, I see many of the Christians writing posts that would do their religious teachers proud. That either speaks to the teachers' instructive ability or the mindlessness of some belief.
Equally striking here is the persistent intolerance of Christian belief. Apex said it best: "Christianity must either be right (and everyone else wrong) or someone or everyone else right (and Christianity wrong)." That tenet is one of the best methods cults use to inculcate and retain their membership; that's exactly what Christianity would be called today if it was a lot smaller.
To finish up a wholly poorly planned post, I cannot understand the dichotomy between perfection/imperfection. If this God is so tolerant, why is he/she intolerant of imperfect things being around him/her? If he/she was so all loving, would he/she not automatically, unconditionally love humans? So many inconsistencies, perhaps just in the way we understand.

Snatchface

05-31-2000, 07:51 PM

Take a chill dudes. Don't get aggravated. Its a sensitive topic and we're all here to learn each other's minds on it. At least that's why I'm here debating this - because I have no clue what goes on in religious people's minds and I find it interesting to hear how they reconcile all of the inconsistencies in the rules that they base their lives on.

Remember, there's no right or wrong here. The Christians will die thinking that they are going to heaven and if they're wrong, what will it matter? The rest of us can plan on enjoying the company of the worms, and that's no different than any of our ancestors for the past 100 million years.

I meant no offense with the parents thing. It was just an example, and according to Christianity, a correct one. It is easy to make generalizations when they dont apply to people we love.

Snatchface

05-31-2000, 08:11 PM

My line of reasoning with all of this is leading to the following conclusion, correct or incorrect:

There are way too many inconsistencies in the bible and religious thinking which have never, to my satisfaction, been adequately addressed. Several of these inconsistencies have been pointed out above and in the previous thread.

However, ALL of these inconsistencies will make sense under my hypothesis which is as follows (this may be offensive to religious types):
1.) Religion was created by man, not a god.
2.) God represents an archetype in the thinking of man and religion exists to address the fears of people regarding the unknown and explain the world around us.
3.) The purpose of those who created organized religion was to accumulate followers, wealth and power.
4.) The more followers a religion has the more wealth and power that religion has and, hence, the more wealth and power its leaders have (e.g., the pope)
5.) The tools the church uses to enroll and keep followers is principally fear (of death, illness, damnation, etc.) and promise of reward for loyalty.
6.) As this has been perpetuated throughout the centuries, people have simply come to believe it because they are told so - not because they have any proof that it actually is right.
7.) As a result of this "church rule" people - society, really - is kept in line, generally behaves responsibly (for the most part) and pay eagerly to earn their way into heaven and have their minds controlled.

And those who started the whole thing? Well, it depends on the religion, of course. But there is a famous saying, "Our lies in time become truth." Stretch the truth a little and repeat it often enough and you will most likely believe it.

That is my hypothesis which will never likely be proven. However suddenly all the inconsistencies are understandable: why god is most vengeful of blasphemers (those that leave christianity), why people must accept Jesus and worship to remain in the club, why this good and forgiving god routinely (per the bible) goes around massacring millions of people for indiscretions mainly relating to nonbelief. Why people, no matter how good they are, will go to hell unless they come to church and pray. Does this sound like the work of god or the work of men trying to scare other men? To me, the latter.

Tuvi

05-31-2000, 08:15 PM

i just want to say one thing about the mentioning of the laws in leviticus.. jesus is more concerned with our love for him and every other person rather than if we follow every single rule. There is no way we can keep every rule anyway. we sin just by being human - let us not forget original sin. jesus even called the saducees hypocrites because they went around preaching to everyone about keeping all 613 laws. the most important thing is to accept jesus as your saviour and to do his will, which is the purpose of all human life. this purpose is to try to take as many people as you can to heaven with you by spreading god's word to the whole world.

i can't say anything philosophical on this topic, frankly because i dont want to, but also because whats more important is how god works in each of our lives. no one can deny our own experiences with the wonders of our lord. i believe that making scholarly arguments is not the way to spread the truth, its sharing the ways god works invidivually in our lives. satan's greatest accomplishment was getting people to deny jesus. i thank god everyday for what he has given me and for what he has done in my life. i dont know where i would be if i didn't have jesus in my heart. good luck everybody, i hope everything works out.

Tuvi

05-31-2000, 08:17 PM

one more thing.
god isn't evil nor does he "kill people" or harm them or whatever. satan does that. just read the book of job. its really a great story of faith.

Snatchface

05-31-2000, 09:07 PM

tsk, tsk Tuvi. Remember that little thing called the flood? Yup, god did that. And he turned Rachel (or Sarah?? I think) into a pillar of salt just for looking at something...not even really doing any harm... Endless tales of god's wrath in the bible dude. It all comes down to people either not listening to him or not believing in him, which essentially boils down to not coming to church and not putting their smack into the contribution dish. See above.

Oh, and I have read Job. I liked it. I even read the Heinlin version of it...more entertaining. That is the story that really convinced me that whoever wrote the bible were motivated to keep people under their control. The "no matter how much bad $hit happens you must still worship me" story. Written specifically to explain all the bad stuff that happens to people and why god lets it happen. That's the big problem most people, even religious people, have with religion so it needed a good story to address it. If all of the bible were as thoughtfully constructed as the story of Job, I would have a lot less ammunition. It is a bit obvious in its intentions, though.

[This message has been edited by Snatchface (edited 05-31-2000).]

Bires

05-31-2000, 10:42 PM

For those still reading this thread, I would like to respond to Snatchface's hypothesis about religion being a construct of man, not God...

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!!!!

Religion is a construct of man's thoughts and needs to **do** things to support his beliefs and values. We all do it. We decide upon a loyalty for whatever reason and act upon those loyalties.

The situation is similar with faith. I've been a Christian for almost twenty years and the mortal, living and breathing man in me still has trouble with the thought that I can get to heaven...how?...by just believing...

NO WAY! That's way too easy! I have to suffer for my faults. God would never let someone like me into heaven. Just last night, I struggled with pornography. I gave in. How could God forgive me simply by me asking for forgiveness? Certainly there must be something more.

So, I build a religion around me to comfort the world-bound me.
My faith assures me that I am saved from eternal separation from God simply be believing that Jesus was God and died as a sacrifice for my sins.
However, my flesh would feel more comfortable if I gave money, put myself through some pain, or asked another person (someone of apparent authority) ot forgive me and ask God to forgive me.

I am an insecure human being.

Throughout time man has exploited this to his own ends all in the name of getting you to heaven. It is a shame. Jesus doesn't want us to be religious, to blindly adhere to rules and regulations that the corner church has on its members. What He does want is a ***personal*** relationship with me. He wants to be my personal saviour. He wants to be the shoulder that I cry on.

I would encourage everyone out there to approach your critism of Christianity through the lens of Christ's love for each of us, not through interpretations of a few charasmatic (and usually well-meaning) preachers.

Thanks for reading this. It's a bit of my heart, and it's not easy for a proud person like me (snatch-I was in your shoes) to share his heart.

kimchicowboy

05-31-2000, 11:28 PM

I'm just curious about the posters who seem to be against Christianity here. Maybe i'm just misunderstanding the posts. do people here not believe in God or a god? because through all the wonders of the world, i can't imagine a world without a God. where did time come from? did man make up the concept of time? or space? how is it that man is the only animal that loves each other, shares with each other. in other animals, as in bats, they share with kin, but not with non-kin. humans are the only things on earth that help people out of family. why is that? where did right/wrong come from? because i don't know of any evolutionary trace of animals developing a sense of right and wrong. i'm just curious to know what others have to answer these questions. =)

to bires:
isn't it interesting to know that it's sooo easy to go to heaven? whole-heartedly accept
Jesus as our savior and to forgive our sins. easy to say that. but whole-heartedly? but i
believe that the building a religion around yourself is a sense of kicking yourself around on the ground. i've been in ruts where my mentality was "why would God want to forgive me? i keep sinning over and over again." and there i am stuck in a rut of self-pity. by knowing that God will forgive you and accept you and lets you go on with your life is great. you're cool with God and you're not left with some kind of grievance in your heart. sorry if i misinterpret your post in any way. =)

snatch-face:
you wrote: The purpose of those who created organized religion was to accumulate followers, wealth and power.
is that always the case? i sure haven't seen anything like that. of course, things like this will happen because people aren't perfect. but i think it's kind of hard to make such generalizations. in statement #6, i was wondering if you can clarify what you mean as proof and what you mean as "right." to comment on statement #7, it's not about works getting into heaven. but the catch is, people do good deeds as a representation of their faith. why do people become missionaries? to strike it rich? naw. and we don't worship Jesus to stay in a club. we praise Him for all the good He's done in our lives. CHristianity is about a relationship. that's the best i can describe it. if i've misunderstood any of your post, i apologize as i do to bires. thanks!

------------------
"I think. Therefore, I pray."

revil

06-01-2000, 02:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kimchi43:
I'm just curious about the posters who seem to be against Christianity here. Maybe i'm just misunderstanding the posts. do people here not believe in God or a god? because through all the wonders of the world, i can't imagine a world without a God. where did time come from? did man make up the concept of time? or space? how is it that man is the only animal that loves each other, shares with each other. in other animals, as in bats, they share with kin, but not with non-kin. humans are the only things on earth that help people out of family. why is that? where did right/wrong come from? because i don't know of any evolutionary trace of animals developing a sense of right and wrong. i'm just curious to know what others have to answer these questions. =)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I personally am an athiest. Peopple tell me all the time I'm agnostic, but I'm not. I respect the fact that god may exist, I can't deny that because I can't prove it one way or the other. But if I had to put bets down, I would say there is no god.

as to the question: where did time come from? did man make up the concept of time? or space?
I can't tell ya, nor do i care.

as to the question: how is it that man is the only animal that loves each other, shares with each other. in other animals, as in bats, they share with kin, but not with non-kin. humans are the only things on earth that help people out of family.
Do you really know wether or not an animal loves another one? of course not. there is no possible way to tell. hey, here's another tid-bit of info for you: humans are the only animal that drinks milk all through-out their lifetime. just another useless fact that may or may not be true.

The right and wrong factor is a very interesting topic, which i could go on for hours about.

ugly

06-01-2000, 07:07 AM

German Superman, I am so grateful that you have created an OFF TOPIC forum for this heated topic. I just got back from vacation and found my box cluttered w/ 80 messages (most of which were notifications of replies to my Free Christian CD post).

I will try not to post my two cents on this topic, b/c it is pointless.

German Superman

06-01-2000, 01:28 PM

Your welcome ugly, next time don't set it to send e-mails when someone replys. That way you can actually see your inbox.

------------------
GOD BLESS!

Kacarp

06-01-2000, 02:36 PM

Wow, what a debate... hmm where to start?

Well I will just say what I have to say about this.

Well I think the best way to put it would be to quote my friend from a paper he wrote.

"Let me stress before hand that I am not talking solely about Christianity in this essay, I only use it as an example because I am most familiar with it.

I have been thinking a lot about religion lately. I, like Einstein before me, have come to the conclusion that it cannot be literally true. In fact it seems littered with problems and inconsistencies, not to mention physical impossibilities. The more I think about, the more abstract and irrational it becomes. Does an all-powerful being that grants eternal life or eternal damnation really seem logical? It seems to me that most religions, such as Christianity, are used as a means to answer the unanswerable questions. Like bedtime stories read to children, to help dispel fears of monsters under the bed, religions help comfort us from that which we can not understand. How much easier is it to live through life when you get to look forward to eternal happiness in heaven? Religions help secure the belief that we have a purpose, that we are not a mere biological quirk. In our history religions were often used to explain disease and plague before the timely invention of science. In fact, to the dismay of the faithful everywhere, much of their religion conflicts with proven science. It is human nature to want to understand the fundamental questions of life. Religions are just one example of the human quest to answer these questions. There are many other ideologies that try to answer these questions, just as there are many religions. The more abstract of these groups are usually labeled cults and shunned to the edge of society. I am not saying that religions are bad, for I believe they, in general, provide a positive influence in society. But we must keep clear in our mind what is known truth and what is hopeful speculation.

To me, religion just seems illogical. The faithful remind me of a schoolboy, staring out the schoolhouse window, wishing it was a hot summers day. The faithful seem to be wishing for something better than life, they think that if they believe hard enough, it will come true. Religion has survived because people want to believe. They want to be comforted by the idea that they have a mighty protector, that they have an eternity of happiness to look forward, that death isn’t really the end of it all. If you asked a man unfamiliar with religion and Santa what sounds more probable:

1) A fat man in a red suit who lives on the North Pole brings presents to good children on the 25 of December by traveling around the world in a sleigh and sliding down chimneys.

2) An all powerful being who has existed forever and lives in a magical kingdom called heaven grants salvation to good Christians when they die, by methods that can not be logically or scientifically explained and have never been witnessed.

He would say you pulled both stories out of your ass. When you think about it... what difference is there between Santa and god? They both promise a reward for believing. It’s just that Santa doesn't eternally dam you to hell if you don't believe... just gives you coal... that is why god is a Santa for grown-ups. It is easier to accept the existence of Christianity when you realize that all Christian adults once believed in Santa.

Many parts of the bible are even more unbelievable the existence of god. For example, the story of Noah’s ark is riddled with problems. The first question that pops into most minds is how they fit two of every animal into the ark. The mere size of the ark would unfathomable. Do not forget that they would also have to bring enough food for the duration of the flood. Eating also raises some interesting questions. What did they feed the lions?

Noah: “Dam it, the lions are starving...Oh here we go, I’ll feed them a gazelle. OH ****! Now we only have ONE GAZELLE... oh well, to bad for the gazelles...

And what happens after the animals get off the boat? Do the carnivores sign a treaty with the herbivores promising not to eat them until their population grows back to a stable level? Not that the herbivores will be doing very much better with all the grass having been under the water for forty days and forty nights. The fact is that any species with a population of 2 will not survive. Any sophomore biology student will tell you this. Many other interesting questions arise when thinking of the ark. For example, how did they get all the animals to the ark? What did they consider an animal? Were all the millions of kinds of bugs taken on the ark too? How did they track down every kind of bug? Did they take fish? Because fish could survive better on their own than in the ark. How did they accommodate polar bears? How did they accommodate termites? Where did all the water come from for this flood anyway...? There are pages of stories of like this that make up the core of the bible. It would take hundreds of chapters to explain the problems of all of them.

I don't necessarily hate religion.... I just think it is a lie.... If god came down to earth and stared me straight in the eye, all the time hurling lightning and said, in a voice like thunder: "you are the DEVIL” then I would believe in religion...

There have been many disagreements between science and religion. As the liar knows, the more detailed the lie, the easier it is to prove false. It is an unfortunate circumstance that religion developed before science did. Because of this, religions attributed many things to religious phenomenon, when they would later be proven to have worldly causes. When conflicts like this did arise, religion would reinterpret itself, or slowly change to fit the changing beliefs of society. Science and religion are merely two different ways of finding answers; it was religion that changed because facts cannot be altered. It astounds me how blind some students faith is. Even when presented with a factual alternative that is based on logical reasoning, not wishful thinking they still cling to what a 2000-year-old book says. This might be due to the fact that religion can take hold earlier in the child’s mind that science can. A child is usually baptized far before he is taught how to read. One of the largest discrepancies in the history of science and religion was that of the creation of humans. Christianity long held that god put humans on earth in a day, and that they were images of himself. This was fine and dainty until a man called Charles Darwin proposed a theory that all species evolved from pre-existing species. Over the years, piles of evidence were discovered supporting this theory. More evidence than could fit in an entire volume of bibles. In fact, evolution has been witnessed. Viruses and other organisms with short life cycles are able to quickly evolve to better adapt to their surroundings. Science has explained the mechanism that causes evolution, natural selection, and even found the carriers of evolutionary traits, genes. Still, some faithful still hold to the myth that humans did not evolve from earlier primates and steadfastly believe that humans are the image of god, put here on some day during the creation of the world. For the earlier part of our history religion dictated that earth was at the center of the universe. People believed this because it made them feel special and powerful, and because they had no evidence to prove otherwise. Unfortunately the telescope was invented. Among other things it gave humans of actual intelligence the ability to study the night sky in more detail. Copernicus was one man who studied the sky, and he found evidence that pointed to another theory. That the earth, and many other planets, all revolved around the sun. Other scientists found other flaws with traditional Christian ideals. For one, the stars did not look like holes in the perfect crystal sphere

reg

06-01-2000, 02:36 PM

CornMonkey

06-02-2000, 03:06 AM

kacarp,

from what you state, it seems you try to disclaim Christianity from the basis of the thoughts of early astrologers (before the works of Copernicus, Galileo, etc). if the Bible did say that the earth was the center of the universe and that moon was a perfect spherical rock, then you would have a point. but the claims of these people during these Middle Ages were just that: claims. sure, these theories made man feel "special and powerful." and why wouldn't it? since, according to the Bible, this universe was created for us anyways! it would be easy to think that we should be at the center of what was given to us, right?

fortunately(not unfortunately, as you state), along came the telescope and Copernicus. Copernicus, himself, was a man of faith and even dedicated his most famous work, "On the Revolutions" to the Pope. so in no way was Copernicus trying to disprove his own faith and the faith of countless others. much like Martin Luther trying to point out the flaws in Catholicism, Copernicus was trying to point out the truth.

i have much more to say, especially about Darwin and evolution. but it's late now and i need to wake up early in the morning. though i'm not finished with my point, i'd like to take this time to thank you all for all the personal opinions and beliefs stated on this thread. even though some were a bit uh, excessive, i respect the fact that we are able to gather here to have a lively debate/discussion about this subject.

i'll try to start/end my point about Darwinism tomorrow...

[This message has been edited by CornMonkey (edited 06-02-2000).]

bNorrish

06-02-2000, 09:38 AM

a thought:

Science starts with questions. Science then creates theories to try to answer those questions. Science then creats experiments to test those theories. If the tests results conflict with the theory, the theory is changed.

Christianity starts with answers. Whenever a new question comes up, they dig out their big book-o-answers(bible) and try to find an answer that fits the question. If something conflicts with one of their answers,and it has, they reinturpurt their book and say "Ah yes, thats what we ment the whole time"

ProMinx

06-03-2000, 04:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Chief Broom:
Haha I hope you're talking about Nietzsche's Superman instead. Maybe Shaw's?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hopefully he is talking about Hegel's superman, rather than hitler's or nietzsche's. Hegel believed that the superman lived to help others, while friedrich (nietzsche) believe they had the power to be self-governing (partially due to their lack of a conscience).

ProMinx

ps - i used to try to consider myself a nietzschean superman...but then i had to drop that theory because i kept missing out on opportunities when i reallly really wanted to beat the crap out of some people.

pss - let's make my post fit into the thread main topic: i am a christian; i haven't been attending a church at ucla, but whenever i go home, i go back to the church where i am a member. I never opened this thread until tonight because i was afraid of what i might find. As is...i only read about 1/4 f the posts.

CornMonkey

06-03-2000, 04:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kacarp:
it was religion that changed because facts cannot be altered.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

when you say "facts," are you referring to the evidence of evolution?

evolution is but a theory. no one has been able to provide scientific proof for the theory of evolution. to back this up, Dr. Kent Hovind of Florida is offering a reward of $250,000 to "Anyone who can give any empirical evidence for evolution." you can check out more about this at:
www.drdino.com/Articles/Article1.htm (http://www.drdino.com/Articles/Article1.htm)

evolution, in the degree that Darwin speaks of, cannot be observed in a single lifetime. so no one has actually observed natural selection which discredits this theory even more. but what about the "piles of evidence" that was discovered?

PILTDOWN MAN--
in 1912, a british lawyer and amateur geologist claimed to have found the remains of a human skull with an ape-like jaw. experts instantly declared this find(to be 300,000 to a million years old) to be the evolutionary discovery of the century--Darwin's missing link has been found. 40 years later, in 1953, piltdown man was found to be a hoax. radiocarbon tests proved that the skull was of a 600 year old woman and the jaw of a 500 year old orangutan.

NEBRASKA MAN--
built from one tooth, was later found to be the tooth of an extinct pig.

HEIDELBERG MAN--
built from a jaw bone. scientists now reject his jaw bone because it's too similar to that of modern man.

NEANDERTHAL MAN--
expert examination concluded that this famous skeleton found over 50 years ago is that of an old man who suffered from arthritis.

PEPPERED MOTH--
i remeber reading about this "clear case" example of natural selection in my high school biology class. you might too...
hypothesis: there are two types of peppered moths--a light kind and a dark kind. before the industrial revolution, almost all peppered moths were the light variety. this type was able to camouflage itself on the bark of light colored lichen-covered tree trunks. the black variety stood out and was readily eaten by birds, thus favoring the survival of the light variety of the peppered moth.
then came the industrial revolution. the ensuing pollution caused by factories eliminated the lichen and covered the tree trunks with soot. now the darker pepperd moths were camouflaged and the number of the lighter peppered moths began to deteriorate.
when anti-pollution laws were passed in the 1950s, the population of the light moths began to increase, supposedly, due to the regrowth of lichen on tree trunks, once again giving the lighter moths better camouflage. experiments performed in the 1950s seemed to confirm the keys points of this hypothesis. scientists later proclaimed that this peppered moth experiment was "the clearest case in which a conspicuous evolutionary process has actually been observed."
one problem... peppered moths are nocturnal animals and are not known to rest on tree trunks during the day. and since these moths don't rest on tree trunks that birds can see, the conclusions of this experiment fall apart. consequently, the experiments conducted during the 1950s and all other field work have been discredited as flawed science.
but what about the pictures of the moths on different colored tree trunks? it was revealed that these photos were staged. the moths were glued, pinned, or placed on trees and their pictures were then taken. the researchers trying to prove evolution through these experiments conveniently forgot to tell the readers of this crucial fact.
if this "clearest case" example for evolution turned out to be a fraud, what about other supposed examples of evolution? makes you wonder, doesn't it?

"To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."
--The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin

bNorrish,
you also said "if something conflicts with one of their answers, and it has, they reinturpurt their book and say 'ah yes, thats what i ment the whole time.'" can you give me some specific examples?

[This message has been edited by CornMonkey (edited 06-03-2000).]

CornMonkey

06-03-2000, 05:22 AM

Prominx,

what is it that you're afraid you might find? that what you thought to be real and true isn't real and true?

i used to have a lot of questions and doubts. i used to believe in many of the topics that was mentioned in this very thread...questions like "what about evolution," "why does a good God allow so much suffering," and "why is there only 'one way?'" i think...actually, i know i frustrated a lot of people with what i had to say. but one thing was certain--i couldn't allow what others said, no matter how sincere/insensitive, deter me from making my own conclusions about what i believed. of course, this was only achieved through seeking God Himself for the answers. this is where prayer and fellowship came in real handy. i encourage you, bro, to never stop seeking the Truth--the nature(love/grace/wrath/mercy) of God.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."
Matthew 7

bNorrish

06-04-2000, 11:33 PM

Hey CORNMONKEY

You seem to have a lot of info discrediting evolution. What can you say about bacteria and viruses? Are they not an example of a species gradually changeing its genome over time to better fit with its enviroment? What else could be causing them to become resistant to drugs? And what about Mosquitoes? When DDT was used in 40's and 50's in Panima it killed a very large percentage in the sprayed area. Now, in the very same area, DDT kills a very small percentage... have the mosquitoes become smart? Are they avoiding the sprayed area? Did they invent mosquitoe sized gas masks? Whats the deal? The only explanation I can think of is that in the begining a small percentage of the mosquitoes were naturally resistant to DDT, and over the years only those mosquitoes reproduced, resulting in a population with a larger percentage of mosquitoes resistant of DDT. Thats called evolution my friend, the changing of a species genome over time. Come on lets think about this logically. We know that any animals traits are described by DNA. We know that changing the DNA will change the traits. We know that DNA is naturally mutated through chemicals and radiation, and that the offspring of any organism are not exact replications of the parent, but have slight permutations. Is it REALLY logical to think that over thousands and millions of generations, a species genome will stay EXACTLY THE SAME? Evolution gave us our brain, lets start using it.

prtlewd

06-05-2000, 07:08 AM

You don't have to believe anything to go to heaven. Don't drive yourself crazy, calm down, take of your horse blinders. If you really want to understand religion study more than one as deeply as the one you were born into and conditioned to adhere to. God is the most merciful, the most wrathful, and everything in between. Our puny little minds can't grasp half a percent of his intentions or might. YOU WILL PAY FOR WHATEVER HE HOLDS YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR. YOU are your own savior, no one died for you. Most of gods prophets were born into, lived thru, and were subject to cruel, cruel injustices and pain, but they never gave up because their eyes were open to the truth.

tlminh

06-05-2000, 05:39 PM

Wow, what a debate... hmm where to start?
Well I will just say what I have to say about this.

Well I think the best way to put it would be to quote my friend from a paper he wrote.

"Let me stress before hand that I am not talking solely about Christianity in this essay, I only use it as an example because I am most familiar with it.

I have been thinking a lot about religion lately. I, like Einstein before me, have come to the conclusion that it cannot be literally true. In fact it seems littered with problems and inconsistencies, not to mention physical impossibilities. The more I think about, the more abstract and irrational it becomes. Does an all-powerful being that grants eternal life or eternal damnation really seem logical? It seems to me that most religions, such as Christianity, are used as a means to answer the unanswerable questions. Like bedtime stories read to children, to help dispel fears of monsters under the bed, religions help comfort us from that which we can not understand. How much easier is it to live through life when you get to look forward to eternal happiness in heaven? Religions help secure the belief that we have a purpose, that we are not a mere biological quirk. In our history religions were often used to explain disease and plague before the timely invention of science. In fact, to the dismay of the faithful everywhere, much of their religion conflicts with proven science. It is human nature to want to understand the fundamental questions of life. Religions are just one example of the human quest to answer these questions. There are many other ideologies that try to answer these questions, just as there are many religions. The more abstract of these groups are usually labeled cults and shunned to the edge of society. I am not saying that religions are bad, for I believe they, in general, provide a positive influence in society. But we must keep clear in our mind what is known truth and what is hopeful speculation.

To me, religion just seems illogical. The faithful remind me of a schoolboy, staring out the schoolhouse window, wishing it was a hot summers day. The faithful seem to be wishing for something better than life, they think that if they believe hard enough, it will come true. Religion has survived because people want to believe. They want to be comforted by the idea that they have a mighty protector, that they have an eternity of happiness to look forward, that death isn’t really the end of it all. If you asked a man unfamiliar with religion and Santa what sounds more probable:

1) A fat man in a red suit who lives on the North Pole brings presents to good children on the 25 of December by traveling around the world in a sleigh and sliding down chimneys.

2) An all powerful being who has existed forever and lives in a magical kingdom called heaven grants salvation to good Christians when they die, by methods that can not be logically or scientifically explained and have never been witnessed.

He would say you pulled both stories out of your ass. When you think about it... what difference is there between Santa and god? They both promise a reward for believing. It’s just that Santa doesn't eternally dam you to hell if you don't believe... just gives you coal... that is why god is a Santa for grown-ups. It is easier to accept the existence of Christianity when you realize that all Christian adults once believed in Santa.

Many parts of the bible are even more unbelievable the existence of god. For example, the story of Noah’s ark is riddled with problems. The first question that pops into most minds is how they fit two of every animal into the ark. The mere size of the ark would unfathomable. Do not forget that they would also have to bring enough food for the duration of the flood. Eating also raises some interesting questions. What did they feed the lions?

Noah: “Dam it, the lions are starving...Oh here we go, I’ll feed them a gazelle. OH ****! Now we only have ONE GAZELLE... oh well, to bad for the gazelles...

And what happens after the animals get off the boat? Do the carnivores sign a treaty with the herbivores promising not to eat them until their population grows back to a stable level? Not that the herbivores will be doing very much better with all the grass having been under the water for forty days and forty nights. The fact is that any species with a population of 2 will not survive. Any sophomore biology student will tell you this. Many other interesting questions arise when thinking of the ark. For example, how did they get all the animals to the ark? What did they consider an animal? Were all the millions of kinds of bugs taken on the ark too? How did they track down every kind of bug? Did they take fish? Because fish could survive better on their own than in the ark. How did they accommodate polar bears? How did they accommodate termites? Where did all the water come from for this flood anyway...? There are pages of stories of like this that make up the core of the bible. It would take hundreds of chapters to explain the problems of all of them.

I don't necessarily hate religion.... I just think it is a lie.... If god came down to earth and stared me straight in the eye, all the time hurling lightning and said, in a voice like thunder: "you are the DEVIL” then I would believe in religion...

There have been many disagreements between science and religion. As the liar knows, the more detailed the lie, the easier it is to prove false. It is an unfortunate circumstance that religion developed before science did. Because of this, religions attributed many things to religious phenomenon, when they would later be proven to have worldly causes. When conflicts like this did arise, religion would reinterpret itself, or slowly change to fit the changing beliefs of society. Science and religion are merely two different ways of finding answers; it was religion that changed because facts cannot be altered. It astounds me how blind some students faith is. Even when presented with a factual alternative that is based on logical reasoning, not wishful thinking they still cling to what a 2000-year-old book says. This might be due to the fact that religion can take hold earlier in the child’s mind that science can. A child is usually baptized far before he is taught how to read. One of the largest discrepancies in the history of science and religion was that of the creation of humans. Christianity long held that god put humans on earth in a day, and that they were images of himself. This was fine and dainty until a man called Charles Darwin proposed a theory that all species evolved from pre-existing species. Over the years, piles of evidence were discovered supporting this theory. More evidence than could fit in an entire volume of bibles. In fact, evolution has been witnessed. Viruses and other organisms with short life cycles are able to quickly evolve to better adapt to their surroundings. Science has explained the mechanism that causes evolution, natural selection, and even found the carriers of evolutionary traits, genes. Still, some faithful still hold to the myth that humans did not evolve from earlier primates and steadfastly believe that humans are the image of god, put here on some day during the creation of the world. For the earlier part of our history religion dictated that earth was at the center of the universe. People believed this because it made them feel special and powerful, and because they had no evidence to prove otherwise. Unfortunately the telescope was invented. Among other things it gave humans of actual intelligence the ability to study the night sky in more detail. Copernicus was one man who studied the sky, and he found evidence that pointed to another theory. That the earth, and many other planets, all revolved around the sun. Other scientists found other flaws with traditional Christian ideals. For one, the stars did not look like holes in the perfect crystal spheres that separated the domain of man from the domain of god. And another problem, the moon did not look like a perf

06-05-2000, 05:39 PM

reg

06-05-2000, 05:39 PM

Sjarred

06-05-2000, 07:20 PM

Dang http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/eek.gif That's one long post.

[This message has been edited by Sjarred (edited 06-05-2000).]

Renski

06-05-2000, 08:53 PM

Are you people writing the bible here? http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/smile.gif

Renski

CornMonkey

06-06-2000, 04:34 AM

whoa, what's with tlminh's post?

bnorrish,

you got a point there... but in my personal opinion, i think there's a difference between evolution and adaption.

scientists have observed viruses and bacteria exchange genetic material and mutate (i.e. become bigger, resistant to antibiotics), but have viruses and bacteria actually "evolve?" as far as i know, they've always been just that--viruses and bacteria. scientists have studied the e.coli bacteria over the past 100 years. with an average single generation span of 20 minutes, that's 2.5 million generations within its studied environment! according to documentation records, the e.coli is still an e.coli bacteria. has this bacteria adapted to the changing environment it? yes. has it evolved? no. i know i'm drawing a fine line here, but bear with me as i try to make my point.

let's look at people for a second... if you saw me walking down the street, you'd realize that i'm a bit darker than the average joe. now, i grew up on and around the beach. but, you look at my parents and you'd see that they're not dark like me. have i evolved? of course not. my body merely adapted to absorb more UV rays. but enough about me, let's look at humans in the big picture. if you look at people from all regions of this world, it's obvious that people look different.

...you know what? i don't know why i always respond at this time... basically i'm tired. but i'll try to sum up real quick...

many scientists overlook the fact that the "missing link" is missing. they try to believe in some random chance of events that connects monkeys to humans. from a strictly scientific point of view, the odds against evolution is staggering. the chance of a single protein molecule to form from "nothing" is one divided by ten to the 160th power. that's an incredibly small chance. to put that figure into perspective, some have compared this "something from nothing" theory to a tornado running through a junk yard and forming a boeing 747 from all the scrap parts. because of probabilities such as this, evolution is considered by many(Christian or not) to be a "scientist's religion."

(alright, now i'm really tired)

so what takes more faith? ...to believe that e.coli will eventually turn into a human or that we and everything else on earth was one day created?

[This message has been edited by CornMonkey (edited 06-06-2000).]

Chief Broom

06-06-2000, 10:11 AM

Ok, so God is not cruel right? He gave everyone a fair chance before he murdered them right? Let's recreate a scenario...

In the flood, there is NO WAY Noah could have gotten his message around the world, just in his local area...so immediately everyone outside of hsi continent has died unfairly. Now to the people near Noah...how are THEY supposed to really believe he is the word of God??? Many Christians say they would believe the word of God today, and that if they were sinning they would repent and yadda yadda....

So you are sitting in your house, as you step outside some old guy runs up and tells you that the world is about to flood... But whats great is, hes got God's Cadillac. It's a really nice big cadillac, and you will be saved from the flood if you drop your entire life and go with the old man. Hey he even has a few magic tricks that MIGHT be miracles. Are you really going in the Godmobile?!?! How are the people in Noah's time supposed to trust some "crazy old man with a boat"??!

God is fair?? Dude I hope you guys are all ready to hop into God's Cadillac. Even if its likely that its just a regular car and a crazy old man, you can't be too safe when God's on a rampage!!

Booyamos

06-06-2000, 10:42 AM

Preach on brother Chief Broom!! I totally agree with you there, and sorry I haven't responded to all the other posts here, but hey I can only slack off so much at work here...

But this discussion has brought up many interesting things. The way I personally look at it, religion is generally a good thing, well at times. It is good to get people together and do things for the community and help others out, but it seems like that is the church of the past, now it seems that that doesn't happen very often. People go to church to be damned and be told they are going to hell. So then they go around telling all the "non-christians" that they are wrong and they are going to hell. That is just what really pissed me off, religious people who think it is their duty to preach god's word. First of all, I don't give a flying **** what they think, I believe what I believe and hey I am cool with that, I don't run around telling them they are stupid, ha ha well maybe I do... but only on sundays. And secondly there is no scientific way that any one is this entire world can prove the existance of a higher power to me. Ya ya ya I know you can say "oh this happened... blah blah blah" but there is no proof at all that there is a god. There are unexplainable things that have happened which make people believe in god, but yet no proof. People look for explinations to the unexplainable. So one thing that a lot of chrisitians use is the creation of the universe, how did that happen? Well damned if I knew, I haven't been around for 15 billion years, but I can only speculate about it, and use scientific facts to create a hypothosis about it. So far we have the big bang, don't know what caused it or what was before it, but that is what we have. And for all of those out there that say the big bang and evolution is wrong, HA HA HA. It is amusing to me how all of these people are so blinded by their faiths that they can not see the truth. The scientific community looks upon these things as theories, yes, but widely accepted to be true theories they are.
So ya, this is my view on some of these things here, if anyone thinks that they can actually prove the existance of god to me I am all for it, but for now I am just waiting for a big booming voice in the sky to damn me to hell, hasn't happened yet. And by prove I mean with facts, not saying "oh the bible says this, the bible says that" for all I know the bible could have been written by some 40 year old man as a fictional story, I personally think the bible is crap, but hey I know I am gonna take some flack for that one.

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~Kacarp~

"Where is your ****** god now?" The mole

[This message has been edited by Kacarp (edited 06-06-2000).]

bNorrish

06-06-2000, 10:44 AM

Cornmonkey...
You have some valid points, but I disagree with you when you say that adaptation is not evolution. Evolution is the process when you add up all the little adaptations together. And another thing, I really don't like that airplane metaphore. I have heard it before, and it seems silly to me for someone to give the chances for a process like that to happen, before they actually know HOW the process happens. Yes I admit that we do not know in entirety how a mixture of molecules becomes life. We have bits and pieces of it, for example we know that specific mixtures of gases, when struck with lightning, will produce amino acids, one of the building blocks of life. But we don't know the whole story... so how can we give odds when we don't know how it happened? Look at it from a logical point of view. On the pre-life earth, there would be thousands if not millions of different chemicals present, and all these chemicals would would be interacting and reacting with each other. What would happen if, by chance, the right chemicals were brought together to create a series of chemical reactions that produced as their byproduct the same conditions that began the reaction? What would happen is that this reaction would spread as long as the the initial conditions remained the same. And when the conditions changed, and permutations in the original reaction that could survive the new conditions would spread. Really, that is all we are. We are a series of self replicating chemical reactions. This might offend those of you who believe that you are "chosen" or "special" or "build in his likeness", but it just doesn't work that way. Sorry, but you are just a heap of chemicals.

kimchicowboy

06-07-2000, 03:00 AM

to chief broom: for one thing, God's said that He's not going to destroy Earth with a flood ever again. and another thing, how do we know that there were other people around during Noah's time? when exactly WAS noah's time?
to kacarp: you say taht you're "just waiting for a big booming voice in the sky to damn me to hell." sounds kinda contradictory to you thinking that the Bible is possibly fictional. =) and in actuality, the big bang theory is losing more ground with scientist. if you go to http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/designevidence.html, there's a whole list of things that support creation. and this list is made by a former CalTech SCIENTIST, so he's going by way of science, not theology. finally, about your comment earlier in your post, i know that there are Christians who go to a church as you describe, but you can't make that generalization. heck, with the church i go to, we "get people together and do things for the community and help others out."

to bNorrish: you make a good point how humans are a bunch of chemical reactions. ok. so things happen. how does one thing become another? there is no fossil evidence of evolution happening. what about the whole cambrian explosion? i doubt evolution can cause soo many things to happen in such a short period in the scale of the history of the earth. you know what i mean? i recently saw my friend's new-born son the 2nd day of his existence. thinking that such a perfect thing came from mush is soo unexceptible. along the lines of natural selection/evolution, why would things like plants care if they survived? i never understood this. it's not like they can think for themselves. if they can't think for themselves, would plants REALLY care if they survived or not? i don't see why they would. their existence on earth has a purpose. humans and other animals would not be able to survive. a whole ecology depends on each other and how each part is in its place perfectly by chance seems unbelieveable. what do you think? =) peace out.

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"I think. Therefore, I pray."

CornMonkey

06-07-2000, 04:00 AM

finals are right around the corner...that means that my posts will most likely be short, few, and far between for the next couple weeks (this may be to the joy of some of you... http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/biggrin.gif)

bnorrish--
i'm sure you've heard of that experiment where scientists put together some molecules in a flask that was supposed to simulate early earth conditions. they also used sparks to simulate lightning. one of the problems with that experiment is that these scientists, in trying to recreate the air in the atmosphere, used NH3+ instead of NH4(NH4 was supposedly the dominant molecule in the atmosphere at the time). now, NH3+ is extremely reactive, whereas NH4 is extremely stable. so fill a jar with random mixtures of molecules and a volatile reagent, throw in a catalyst(such as an electrical spark) and you're bound to find something. do this same experiement with NH4, and you'll get nothing...

many experiments have been conducted, and that's where all the probabilities and odds come from. and in a way, you're right. we don't know what happened and we might never know. but coming from a strictly "logical," scientific point of view, the conditions that existed back then was not a life-forming-friendly environment. for life to form, you'd have to agree that water must be present (life can't form in the middle of dirt). for water to exist, oxygen must be present. but where does this oxygen come from? and from wherever it does come from, how is it able to produce a continual supply of this gas let alone create enough to produce water? scientists have been able to pinpoint the dominant gas in the air back then--this gas is not oxygen.

also, scientists have found what would be the ideal conditions to form nothing from something. unfortunately, these conditions never existed. but let's say that, for the sake of arguement, these conditions did exist, could life as we know today(plants, birds, mammals, humans, etc.) be formed in a relatively measly 4 billion years?

Chief Broom and Kacarp--
can i ask you guys a question? do you believe in God? from what you two said, i can't really figure out what your points are. do you believe that there isn't a God because if there is one, He wouldn't be so "cruel?" or are you saying that God doesn't exist because there's no proof? or even that God does in fact exist but He's a punk?

up late again... geez, i'm gonna fail my classes...

ejimakated

06-07-2000, 05:16 AM

Don't worry, I don't plan on cluttering up this page with any more rhetoric.

You all can decide for yourselves what "side" I'm on, whether I'm a Christian or not, but I only wanted to make a simple point...

If you plan on taking part in an argument, please take the time and do some research; KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Some of the posts I've read in here are sheer nonsense, while others are nothing more than the rantings of narrow-minded simpletons, neither of which are worth taking the twenty minutes to answer.

For example, Mr. Cornmonkey here has got his act together. In my opnion, the fact that he even made the effort to respond to some of the juvenile theories I've read is itself a testament to his passion.

I know a little something about Christianity, and I also know a little something about the arguments against it. If you ask me, Cornmonkey himself is winning this discussion on his own.

My advice to those of you arguing against Christianity is this: read a bit of the bible before you try to refute it, and if you have, then take the time out to get your stories straight before you post your ill-informed opnions up here and make fools of yourselves. Makes the rest of the non-Christians look ignorant.

That's all I have to say. If any of what I've written upsets you, see if I care. At least I didn't make any spelling mistakes.

ejimakated

06-07-2000, 06:02 AM

P.S.

Just so I am not misunderstood, all I'm saying is that the pro-Christian arguments here (i.e. Cornmonkey) are better organized, more informed, and, in my opinion, more convincing. The others just aren't cuttin the mustard.

prtlewd

06-07-2000, 08:24 AM

Ejivakated:

"get your stories straight before you post your ill-informed opnions up here and make fools of yourselves. Makes the rest of the non-Christians look ignorant."
opnions????(sp) I am sorry to say but your post is the most inane of the whole bunch. And you seem to know very little for someone against senseless ranting & raving done w/o research.

Chief Broom

"In the flood, there is NO WAY Noah could have gotten his message around the world, just in his local area...so immediately"

Who said the Ark which was to carry 2 of each chosen species, in existence, was not "built immediately". And if they could build ships they could travel, also the continents were not as spread out and there was more water back in those days.

On Gods cruelty: Everything dies eventually, painfully or painlessly regardless of good or bad, so it's not cruelty that makes god kill us. We all have to go to make room for our spawns and not became a burden on them or the society.

For those arguing about science and religion: God is the creator of all things, chemicals, minerals, the whole of the universe, they are interconnected with us and everything around us. It does not seem plausible to do experiments about the earth's atmosphere millions of years ago considering how much it has changed just in the past 100 years. I hear oxygen and this and that when we are all carbon based bio-neuro-psycho-social organisms.

Every human spends about half an hour as a single cell.
One human brain generates more electrical impulses in a single day than all of the world's telephones put together. Evolution is a pointless theory that will never be proven, I would say adaptation is the better argument. God is all knowing, all seeing, and the creator of everything on earth including the things we can create with the brains we have. We have reached the bottoms of the sees and torn the skies and still don't see god but that's what faith is, that the whole argument and test here.

I would agree with kimchi and I do respect everyone's opinions because god is a very individual thing that you can't learn from any organized religion.
Look at this link, philosophers who are notorious in refuting the existence of God have spent most of their lives arguing the issue
ie http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,115094+25,00.html

Descartes, the "father of modern philosophy," is significant in terms of his reacting against external authority in matters of belief, seeking a fresh basis for certainty, and finding it in the existence of his own mind. He must think in order to doubt his existence, hence his famous statement, Cogito ergo sum ("I think, therefore, I am"). Henceforward, much significance was given to the individual mind.

Y2J

06-07-2000, 10:48 AM

Lets look at this for a second:

The Old testament declares there to be one messiah, and when that happens, there will be world peace, and he will walk through the gates in Jerusalem and the dead will rise again and return to the holy land.

All of a sudden, Mary, who claimed to be a virgin (you never know) had a kid. Jesus Christ, an orthodox rabbi, who followed all customs in judiasm. He had some different intrepetations of the torah, and he started to have followers. Since you are not allowed to have people bow down to a mortal person in Judiasm, the head rabbis were upset at Jesus. He was actually killed by the mayor in the city he lived, a public execution. It is believed that the rabbis in Jerusalem bribed the mayor of the province to dispose (for lack of a better word) of Jesus. then 4 of his followers claim to have seen him again. BS.

Also, in the torah, G-D claims that he will send false prophets at us and make sure we are true believers. It seems to me as if the christians fell for it

Booyamos

06-07-2000, 11:15 AM

Well kimchi43 I went to that site you posted, nothing there, unable to find file, guess that just proves my point, he he just kidding bad link or something oh well.

Ya but anyways... first of all lets get this straight for CornMonkey, I do not believe in god, for these reasons:

1. No one has has even a little bit of evidence to show me that there actually is a god, and I am talking about facts here, not supposed "miracles". I am still waiting for people to bring about some sort of proof here, or any thing saying there is a god, and if you start quoting the bible, I don't care. I don't really believe the bible, yes it is full of some good stories and rules for people to follow, but I just don't believe it.

2. Logically it just doesn't make sense (well to me at least). I mean there is this all powerful being who is above us watching us and he decides if when we die we go to this magical place were everything is good, or we go to the pits of hell and live in torture, FOREVER. Forever is a looooooong time, you know how many people there would be in heaven, ha well probably hell right now? DAMN. It just sounds like a fairy tale to me. What would be the best thing that could happen to you after you die? You go to this other world were all your dreams come true and everything is happy and nice. What could be the worst thing? You burn for eternity and are tortured and live on in pain for eternity. Just seems like another one of those things to get people to behave, something you would tell a child so they would behave. If you are good santa will bring you presents, if you are bad santa will bring you coal. SAME THING.

There are many other reasons but I just don't feel like going on an on about that now.

To ejimakated:
In my opinion no one is really winning any arguement here, and hey that's how it always is, both sides are very stuborn so no one ever gets anywhere, but oh well. So you want more facts and for us to get out stories straght huh, well lets see I am at work, just chillin and in my free time I read a few posts, post some responses. I don't really care enough at the moment to go look up stuff. Maybe later sometime, but for now I am just arguing things with simple facts, fact A: no one can prove the existance of god, fact B: with out a god there is no religion. So ya, I know someone will respond with something to that... just waiting.

To kimchi43 (again): I know that not all churches are like that, and it is good that you and your church go out and do things for the community, just with the experiences I have had with church and my friends who go to church, just baddd things... blah. It seems that a lot of younger people are very religious just because their parents are, they are blindly following their faiths, until they get out on their own and can finally choose for themselves what is right and what is wrong.

Damn it I am doing to many things at oncehere, but I should get back to work, enough fun here. Anyways don't mean to piss anyone off, or do I? hmmmm... but just saying what I think.

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~Kacarp~

"Where is your ****** god now?" The mole

bNorrish

06-07-2000, 04:35 PM

What I REALLY don't like is when Christians prove their point by saying: "God is great, God is supreme, God is this, God is that, God did this, God did that, the Bible says this, the Bible says that, we are all scum sucking no nothings compared to him, yadda yadda yadda" These arguments prove nothing to me except how ignorant and stubborn you are and that you feel you have to advertise your religion. And if you really feel that you must continue this behavior, become a mormon, unless you already are.

kimchicowboy

06-07-2000, 08:46 PM

kacarp: sorry man. the link i had up had a comma at the end. click this: http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/designevidence.html . and you want proof of the existence of a god if not the Christian God. well, i think good proof IS the creation model. do you know of any other way the universe was created besides the big bang (since the big bang is being discredited)? and i think you are misguided in the going to heaven or a magical place. there is big debate if there is fate of free-will in Christianity. I personally believe in free-will. man has the free-will to accept God or not. so it is not God sending us to heaven or hell but ourself. do you think the humans are the only beings with souls? that's the difference between humans animals and othr things. so when the body dies, where does the soul go? =)

bNorrish: you never really answered the question i had up top in my previous post. i was wondering what your response is. =) no offense, but you sound ignorant yourself with that last post. what is truth to you? have you ever tried finding it? =) peace.

Y2J

06-07-2000, 10:05 PM

Good proof is the Christian model? That is the jewish model actually. Yes, the creation is the same for both of out religions

Y2J

06-07-2000, 10:45 PM

Proof (in my mind) there is a G-D.
A "life goal" is one that brings you to a heightened state of being. For example, a businessman's goal is to be rich. Trading stocks or investing in real estate is the means to help accomplish that goal.

A similar formula applies to Judaism. The goal of Judaism is to cultivate the greatest possible relationship with God.

The 613 mitzvot are separate constructs which teach us about the reality of God's existence and how to live with that awareness.

Most of the 613 mitzvot in the Torah require the performance of a certain action - like giving charity, or eating matzah on Passover. These are the means to the end.

The "goal mitzvot" are the Six Constant Mitzvot. Rather than requiring the performance of a certain action, these mitzvot are a state of being, of living with the reality of God's existence.

The Six Constant Mitzvot are:

Know there is a God
Don't believe in other gods
God is one
Love God
Fear God
Don't be misled by your heart and eyes
Every moment of awareness is another occasion to actualize these goals. None of the other mitzvot has that same constant opportunity, and that's why the Six Constant Mitzvot are our priority. All the other mitzvot only build and bolster these goals.

INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD
The first of the Ten Commandments declares: "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt" (Exodus 20:2).

This is the mitzvah to "Know there is a God."

The logic underlying this commandment seems difficult to understand. Someone who already observe God's commandments obviously believes in His existence -- so what need is there for a new command to do so? And if someone doesn't know that God exists, why should he listen to this command?!

So exactly who is this mitzvah for?

The answer is that we should not believe in God "on faith" alone. Investigate the evidence. Get knowledge. Research. Study. Analyze. It is a fundamental principle of Judaism: You have to know, not just believe.

EMOTIONAL TRUST
"You shall know this day, and understand it in your heart, that the Almighty is God" (Deut. 4:39, the Aleynu prayer)

But there's more. It is not enough to intellectually know that God is in charge of everything. You must also know it in your heart. This emotional knowledge is much more profound, because it affects how a person actually conducts his life.

The circus performer is willing to walk the tightrope because he is confident there's a net below to catch him. Similarly, a child will jump down off a ledge into his father's arms, completely confident that his father will catch him.

The whole point of life is to strengthen your awareness of God. How do you know if you're really aware of God? Through trust. If you are, then you are willing to walk the tightrope, so to speak, or jump into your father's arms.

STEPS TO TRUST IN GOD
Rebbeinu Bechaya, in his 12th century book of self-improvement, "Duties of the Heart" (Chovos Halevavos), describes key four steps to build trust in God:

Step one is to realize that the Almighty loves you with unbounded love. The closest thing we can compare this to is the love a parent has for a child. The Almighty is our Father in Heaven. His love for us exceeds all of the love in this world. Awareness of God is to live with this realization.

Deep down we know that God loves us. Anyone in trouble prays to God. This is true even of people who have ignored Him all their lives. As the saying goes, "there's no atheist in a foxhole." Even if you've done everything wrong, when you need your Father, He's there.

STEP TWO -- DIRECT LINE
The U.S. Defense Department spends millions of dollars each year to send broadcast signals to distant stars, on the chance there's life out there. It may take 2,000 years for the signals to get there, but they're still listening 'round the clock.

If they ever get an answer -- even just a "hello" -- the whole world would be flabbergasted.

Have you ever had a prayer answered? Four out of five people will say "yes." The Creator of this universe has privately communicated with you. It's mind-boggling.

Most people whose prayer was answered didn't even know in which direction to send the signal! They simply said, "God, please help..." Five billion human beings, a whole galaxy of planets and stars -- and God answered this individual!

The mitzvah of belief in God means living with the reality that you're not alone. God's awareness and attention to every detail is constant. He picks up signals when you ask.

STEP THREE - HE DOES IT ALL
If your parent gives you a dollar, you're actually diminishing his net worth -- even if he's a multi-millionaire. But if the Almighty gives you a billion dollars, it does not diminish His net worth. God has all the power. He created this universe from nothing. He can make you a genius. He can heal your child. He can do anything.

Think about how many miracles God made for you to breathe your first lungful of air. A fetus doesn't use lungs; it takes oxygen from the mother's blood. When a child is born, the baby has to breathe on its own and the whole biological system changes. A heart valve closes, the lungs inflate -- and it all has to fall into place at exactly at the right time.

Think about how much God has given you since you were born into this world. He is leading you every step of the way.

Everything God does for you is a gift. And whatever you want from God is nothing compared to what He's already given you. If you're asking for a billion dollars, it's nothing compared to a pair of eyes that He gave you for free.

God sustains the universe every second -- every creature, every blade of grass. God makes your heart pump. He provides your food. He created the sun with heat and light. There is nothing that can stop God. Your parents, teachers and boss are the delivery people. Every single thing you have is sent from God.

Knowing this gives you confidence to trust that God will continue to give you everything you need.

STEP FOUR -- BEST OF EVERYTHING
God doesn't need anything from you. He doesn't need you to eat kosher food, or to observe Shabbat.

God only wants to give. Everything in the world is for our benefit.

So if God doesn't grant your desire, you have to ask yourself why. Why hasn't God given you $100 million dollars?

Maybe it's not good for you. Maybe you'd become arrogant, greedy, excessive. Maybe you'd hire others to accomplish your goals, and you'd miss out on making the effort to try.

God knows what's good for us. Trust in God means understanding that when He doesn't give you something, it's a message. He's trying to wake you up, to get you to reevaluate your goals.

Good parents do this with their children, too. A child wants five cookies; you give him one. Or you take him to the doctor to get a shot: The child is crying, "Why are you doing this to me?" But you know it's for his own good.

Anytime something bad happens, you have to ask yourself, "Why?" Understand that God knows what he's doing. He's trying to raise us up. He knows what's good for us and He wants us to have the best of everything.

GIVING UP WHEN THINGS GET TOUGH
"Man's self-destructive tendency (yetzer hara) overpowers him daily and threatens to kill him. Were it not for God's help, man would not survive." (Talmud - Kiddushin 30)
Every single aspect of our existence depends on God. Whether we stand up, raise our hands, use our brain, do a mitzvah, or battle the desire to do the wrong thing, our ability is all a gift from God. We are powerless without Him.

It follows, then, that any goal is attainable if God gives us the power.

So how did the phrase "I can't" enter our lexicon?

The Talmud reports that Moses reprimanded the Jewish people: "When you stood at Mount Sinai, God asked, 'Who will insure that you will always fear God?' You should have replied 'Almighty, You will.' You should have seized the opportunity to request that God give you fear of Heaven."

The Jews wanted to be able to take full credit for their fear of Heaven, therefore they were reluct

06-07-2000, 10:45 PM

reg

06-07-2000, 10:45 PM

ejimakated

06-08-2000, 06:12 AM

To prtlewd:

I have read many of the posts here, from BOTH sides, some of which are thoughtful, and some of which are not. Just out of curiosity, when you state that I seem to know very little, I'd like to know upon what specifically you are basing this opinion. Something tells me that something I said touched a sensitive nerve in you; perhaps you felt I was personally attacking you...? If so, well, I wasn't directing my comment to anybody in particular, but perhaps there is some underlying reason you felt I was speaking of you...

Also, I would like to know if you consider yourself a Christian or not. It seems that many of your points favor the Christian argument, while still others border on blasphemy. Just wanted to have that cleared up so I know how to approach you.

I'm not trying to create any bad blood here. I've just found this whole discussion very amusing, and while I've enjoyed reading what everyone's had to say, I've also had to stop myself from laughing at some of the logic that has been presented. If that isolates me as judgmental or self-righteous, bah... I never put much stock in the company of others anyway.

This is shaping up to be an endless game of ping-pong, and though this may have its intellectual/philosophical/theological/logical merits, I fail to see its point. I'm beginning to feel some of the people here are no longer interested in the debate any more than they are interested in making themselves sound "smart." I mean, are we arguing for the sake of arguing here?

You'll have to forgive me for my cynicism. I like having enemies...

[This message has been edited by ejimakated (edited 06-08-2000).]

prtlewd

06-08-2000, 10:30 AM

Eji,

I guess I found your post offensive because it was judgemental. I see this topic as a debate and not an argument so no ones opinions should be considered right or wrong because if there is one thing that people will never agree on is religious belief.
They go against Gods own decrees and kill each other over it and thev've done so for millions of years.
The truth is very simple: If there is a god(by the way [I] don't question it), then there is only one how you get to him is entirely upto the individual mainly upbringing.
No story ever goes thru 10 people w/o getting embellished or summerized. So those are not the best ways to explain how anything works.
As for my religion I am a monotheist in the purest form and believe myself to be a Jew, Christian, and a Muslim and no one can tell me otherwise. I consider all the non-book religions valid also ie buddhism. God has had to send us hundreds of prophets because we take no time at all to lose our way. How long was moses gone when his people decided the golden calf was a more tangible god? Or we divide one religion into a hundred sects because a particular issue doesn't suit our mood or lifestyle.
Will anyways that's enough for me. My beef with you was just the narrow-minded comment of telling anyone they did not make sense. I admit I am ignorant, this planet is huge and the universe even bigger so there is no way anyone will ever know enough.

WAnk

06-08-2000, 01:08 PM

wow, i find it humorous that every forum i have been too has had this exact same discussion, with basically the same arguements presented http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/smile.gif a few things, i am an atheist, but i not about to flame anyone else for their beliefs. reason being, i have been outcast from my family, my friends and basically everywhere else for the 4 or 5 some years i have been a self-proclaimed atheist. anyways, i don't really have a beef with religion, as long as they don't try to convert me. I do have a major beef with christianity because of the way they practice their religion. my entire life i thought something was wrong, and got scolded by sunday school teachers and preachers when i questioned the practices of my church. basically, they way i think of it, i have been knocked for my beliefs for quite some time now, so as much as i would like to go rampaging and just bust out yelling about ignorance, why my beliefs are "better", etc etc, it just brings out the worst in all of us. in anycase, my views are represented here, and i don't really have too much in the way of constructive arguements to bring up. I don't know why people insist on debating this EVERYWHERE. people know full well what they are starting, people post, everyone gets mad, yadda yadda. what really irks me is when one side or the other claims they 'won' the arguement. i have seen this too many times, and was like WTF. no one wins this arguement. if they did, it would not be going on still. This post is rambling fairly well now, so, anyways have fun with the rest of the discussion http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/smile.gif call me a weak minded fool if you must for not joining, but hey, i am just the new guy, right? http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/wink.gif

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ummmmmm, WAnk????

prtlewd

06-08-2000, 01:17 PM

WAnk you did post so unbeknowest to you, you have joined. It's called a debate because no one will win, I hope no one expects too, that would be silly.

Booyamos

06-08-2000, 02:36 PM

I would have to agree with wank, maybe cause he is my friend.... but ya. To me this entire debate is just very amusing, it makes no difference to me what people think about my beliefs (since I have none really) but I find it interesting that you can get people so worked up about all of this. I think a lot of it is because if people cannot fathom what would happen if they were to let go of their religion. A world with out god to them seems pointless, and hey maybe it is. That is why in my opinion a lot of people cling to religion because they cannot live with out thinking that there is a purpose to their life. Well there is a purpose to our lives, to pass on our genes, multiply, we are all just animals anyways and that is the goal in all other animals, to pass on your genes as many times as you can.

Yep but anyways, that was a very long and interesting post there Y2J. I think you might be on the right track, I think people just need to "find god" (I use that term loosely...) in their own ways. For some of us it may be in realizing that there is no god, and dealing with that, for others it may be through christianity, not my personal choice http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/wink.gif but hey. Anyways I think this is enough posting for me on here, just something to do during slow times at work anyways.

------------------
~Kacarp~

"Where is your ****** god now?" The mole

[This message has been edited by Kacarp (edited 06-08-2000).]

CornMonkey

06-08-2000, 02:59 PM

Kacarp,

Can you prove that God DOESN'T exist?

I work in an office building. And, I wonder...how was this building made? Surely, there must have been an architect, or builder, if you will, who created this office. But how do I know? I've never experienced this builder with any of my five sense--I've never seen him, I've never heard him, I've never smelled him, I've never touched him, and I've never tasted him. I've never even read about him in some book filled with good builder stories.

Believing in the EXISTENCE of a god is one matter...and putting your faith IN a god is another.

But isn't it comforting to know that God doesn't believe in atheists, either?

P.S. Like a good friend told me, I believe atheists are in a win-win situation. If atheists are right, and there is no God, they are able to live their lives totally devoid of God(just the life they want). But if they are wrong, and God sends them to hell, they'll spend an eternity devoid of God(just the after-life they want). So whether they're right or wrong, if atheists hold on to their beliefs long enough, they'll eventually get what they want...

Booyamos

06-08-2000, 05:05 PM

Ha damn just keep getting sucked back in here. But to answer your question, no I can not prove that god does not exist, but you can not prove that he does exist. You can take unanswerable questions and say "I can't explain it so God did it". It is a no win situation. And lol, I liked your ps about athiest having a win-win situation. I would prefer it if I were to go to a heavenly place were there were beautiful naked women all around, but hey wouldn't we all http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/wink.gif

And I usually do no classify myself as an athiest because even with all of my experiences and things, I cannot explain everything that happens in this world. So I can not prove that there is no god, but I can no prove there is, so I am agnostic, don't know what there is, still looking. I must say it would make things a lot easier and more comforting if you were to know that something was up there watching you. But anyways, work is done, time to go home.. woo hoo.

------------------
~Kacarp~

"Where is your ****** god now?" The mole

Chief Broom

06-08-2000, 06:38 PM

TO KIMCHI:

"for one thing, God's said that He's not going to destroy Earth with a flood ever again. and another thing, how do we know that there were other people around during Noah's time? when exactly WAS noah's time?"

So as long as i promise not to kill kids anymore, it doesnt matter that I killed almost every kid in the entire world? I dont think so, thats just plain EVIL. And it doesnt matter if there were other continents with people on them really, it's the fact that God killed almost every single person in the world....THATS ****ED UP

--------------------------------

TO CORNMONKEY:

I believe in God, but not in the Christian God. I actually honestly believe that God is merciful, and perfect. I believe that God is beautiful, and forgiving (of EVERYONE...). The bible doesnt show me this God. It shows me a God of wrath, of judgement, and of anger. My God would never do such things. My God is above that, and is above all religions. Is their a heaven?? I really dont pretend to know... In other words, I'm an agnostic.

Im going to piss off a lot of people by saying this, but I see Evolution as a religion as well. It has insufficient evidence, and has much debated speculation. It offers me no real answer (like where did the big bang come from? what was before it? What was at the beginning?). Evolutionists tend to be just as dogmatic as any Christian, and will laugh at creationism just as Christians laugh at Evolution. I figure there has to be SOMETHING at the begining of everything...something eternal. You can call it what you want, I'll call it God (in whatever language that pleases you).

One good thing though, Evolutionists DO tend to be a lot nicer to a lot more people. I see less prejudice against minorities, and they dont firebomb any clinics....
-----------------------------
TO PRTLEWD:

"On Gods cruelty: Everything dies eventually, painfully or painlessly regardless of good or
bad, so it's not cruelty that makes god kill us. We all have to go to make room for our spawns and not became a burden on them or the society."

Ok fine, since im supposed to follow God's example Ill just head on down to India and start murdering everyone I see. They're so overcrowded... I'll free up plenty of room that way! I assure you I am not meaning any cruelty, I'm just freeing up resources and "burdens" on society.

Chief Broom

06-08-2000, 06:44 PM

Look...this is my basic point everybody.

I dont care if your Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Athiest, Agnostic, WHATEVER. As long as you treat EVERYONE nicely, as long as you dont hurt others, as long as you dont tell people they are "going to hell" for their beliefs, and as long as you are not racist, sexist, anti-gay, or prejudiced....I LOVE YOU!! You are a good human being, and a fine citizen.

None of us are going to successfully argue that one way is right, or another is wrong. I just critized Christianity because I see human beings screwing it up (by writing the Bible for instance), and by making a lot of otherwise good people into monsters. Unfortunately, religion is a GREAT tool for murder as well as for love. I hate seeing God used to justify hatred....

Just let others live their lives the way they please...Follow the ideas about liberty and freedom as long as no one is hurt....and we should all be happy! It doesnt really matter if you are religious or not, as long as you are fair, honest, and accepting right?

------------------------------

The arguments in this forum arent changing anybodies mind, and I honestly don't think any of us is getting anything new out of it right??

Why don't we all just agree to post up one final thought, and agree to let this topic die? I'm really getting tired of scrolling down 100 messages to get to an argument we've all heard before. "Can't we all just get along??!" =)

On that note, I'm not posting to this forum anymore. See ya all in another topic!! http://www.gotapex.com/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Chief Broom (edited 06-08-2000).]

Booyamos

06-09-2000, 12:18 AM

Good call Chief Broom. I think I will just post my final thoughts and end this topic here.

I agree with most of what Chief said there, in general a lot of religions are good, and as long as they don't go around damning people or preaching I am fine with them. It is all the religions that have all this hate with them that I really don't like, for example christianity and it's hatred towards gays. That is not my personal choice of life style but I have no problem with it, and it sickens me to see people who show up at a homosexual's funeral with anti-gay signs. That is just wrong. I do not think that anyone has the right to judge anyone else's life and what they do with it. But on the topic of god, I am a scientific man, I need evidence and hard core proof to belive things. As of right now I can not find any proof that there is a god, but at the same time I can not prove there isn't, I am still trying to find out. Hopefully there is because if not then life would be sorta pointless. So if any of you like, you can continue on this never ending debate, but it is sorta pointless in my opinion, no one is going to change their minds, and nothing good is going to happen. Anways see ya later.

------------------
~Kacarp~

"Where is your ****** god now?" The mole

ejimakated

06-09-2000, 05:49 AM

Despite the short time I have "contributed" to this discussion, I will also make this my last post. I see that Broom and Kacarp echo my sentiments of futility.

However, just a couple of quick things.

First of all, to address the statement that the Bible only portrays the vengeful wrath of God, I believe many Christians would argue by saying that while the Old Testament was indeed chock full of cities being thrashed and populations of people being wiped out, the New Testament (and if you really want to look hard enough, you can ALWAYS find exceptions to everything) tells the story of a "softer" (so to speak), more compassionate God in the human embodiment of Jesus, who preached love of all. Won't bother to go into detail bout that...

Secondly, here's a thought... I think the following two statements are generally agreed upon amongst the participants of this discussion:

(1) We cannot provide satisfactory "evidence" that God exists.
(2) We cannot provide satisfactory "evidence" that God DOESN'T exist.

Given that a person acknowledges these two ideas, both of which hold equal merit, isn't it interesting to note which of them he/she will then choose to accept and live by? One of these will eventually be proven false, and what if, upon our passing, logic reveals itself to be our most tragic human flaw?

Anyway, thanks for the kicks; I hope all your horizons have been expanded...

renots

04-29-2001, 04:09 AM

Is it all in Maxwell's Equations?

http://www.biols.susx.ac.uk/home/John_Gribbin/Time_Travel.html

It works like this. According to one interpretation of quantum physics (there are several interpretations, and nobody knows which one, if any, is "right"), every time a quantum object, such as an electron, is faced with a choice, the world divides to allow it to take every possibility on offer. In the simplest example, the electron may be faced with a wall containing two holes, so that it must go through one hole or the other. The Universe splits so that in one version of reality -- one set of relative dimensions -- it goes through the hole on the left, while in the other it goes through the hole on the right. Pushed to its limits, this interpretation says that the Universe is split into infinitely many copies of itself, variations on a basic theme, in which all possible outcomes of all possible "experiments" must happen somewhere in the "multiverse". [So there is, for example, a Universe in which Al Gore was elected which rapidly devolved into a militaristic police state; talk about the law of unintended consequences]

eSDee

04-29-2001, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by Y2J

Also, in the torah, G-D claims that he will send false prophets at us and make sure we are true believers. It seems to me as if the christians fell for it

The most bold of statements in this thread. Be prepared to back that up Y2J.

sbp

04-29-2001, 01:13 PM

Ancient thread alert! http://sbp777777.homestead.com/files/alertsiren.gif

hapoo

04-29-2001, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by renots
Is it all in Maxwell's Equations?

http://www.biols.susx.ac.uk/home/John_Gribbin/Time_Travel.html

It works like this. According to one interpretation of quantum physics (there are several interpretations, and nobody knows which one, if any, is "right"), every time a quantum object, such as an electron, is faced with a choice, the world divides to allow it to take every possibility on offer. In the simplest example, the electron may be faced with a wall containing two holes, so that it must go through one hole or the other. The Universe splits so that in one version of reality -- one set of relative dimensions -- it goes through the hole on the left, while in the other it goes through the hole on the right. Pushed to its limits, this interpretation says that the Universe is split into infinitely many copies of itself, variations on a basic theme, in which all possible outcomes of all possible "experiments" must happen somewhere in the "multiverse". [So there is, for example, a Universe in which Al Gore was elected which rapidly devolved into a militaristic police state; talk about the law of unintended consequences]

Anyone else watch Sliders?? :)

speedracer120

04-30-2001, 12:27 AM

That show was a trip. Too bad no one else watched it. But it got old after a few seasons anyways.

fakesurfers

05-01-2001, 07:48 AM

Why dont you people ask God if it/he/she is real?
Here is the homepage:

http://www.netstore.de/~god/

welfareloser

05-01-2001, 08:28 AM

nothing like showing up after the party is already over...

i don't care if there is a god or not. i have no way of knowing. what blows me away is how many people think they do know. if you want to have faith, ie, believe without proof, that's cool - but don't try to "prove" religion. it's just silly. like the whole "christian science" movement. it blows me away. it's an oxymoron, emphasis on the moron. i understand that there may be compelling evidence that the world is younger than we thought, that evolution isn't what we thought it was, blah, blah... but then it always degenerates into "you see! the polonium halos prove that everything happened just like those crusty old farts who wrote the bible said it did!" that's not scientific. science and faith are not irreconcilable, nor do they fit together like jigsaw puzzle pieces. they are apples and dodgeballs. i have yet to see anything approaching the basic scientific method in the realm of "christian science." if you want to believe, believe, do so without guilt, and without the need to try to wrestle matters of faith into the shape of science. it's like trying to fit twenty pounds of shit into a five pound bag.

i choose not to believe in anything, and when i die, i'll see what's what. maybe i'm a brain in a jar, being poked by a big slimy alien... maybe there's a blonde-haired blue-eyed jesus waiting at the end of the lighted tunnel... probably its just more of the same, with a slightly new twist just to keep things fun.

also, there are some smatterings of evidence that after the crucifiction, jesus and his girlfriend escaped, retired on the french riviera, and had some love children, leaving a genetic legacy to the world. wouldn't it be fun to be a descendent of jesus? yes, it would. that beats the hell out of having george washington in your fambly tree, don't it?

johnnymk

05-01-2001, 09:54 AM

The Bible says "The fool hath said in his heart that there is no God."
There is one truth and one God. There can not be many truths or many gods. Fortunately, I believe in Jesus who said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life". "Anyone who believes in me has Everlasting Life".
Once you die, it will be too late to repent. It's the absolute biggest gamble that a person will take in rejecting Jesus as their Saviour.
"Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Either you trust him as your Saviour in this life or he will be your Judge on Judgement Day.
"And he will say on that day, Depart from me into Everlasting Darkness, for I never knew you."

welfareloser

05-01-2001, 09:57 AM

AmRivlin

05-01-2001, 10:22 AM

IS GOD EVERPOWERFUL/ OVERPOWERFUL? Basically can God do anything he ever wanted?

"Can God make a rock that even he can't lift?"

The Rubeman Paradox
To big or can't make big

oblongmelon

05-01-2001, 04:14 PM

I can't believe you guys are fighting over religion. Everyone has their own beliefs-whether anyone thinks it's right or wrong is quite simply no one else's business.

LPMiller

05-01-2001, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by johnnymk
The Bible says "The fool hath said in his heart that there is no God."
There is one truth and one God. There can not be many truths or many gods. Fortunately, I believe in Jesus who said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life". "Anyone who believes in me has Everlasting Life".
Once you die, it will be too late to repent. It's the absolute biggest gamble that a person will take in rejecting Jesus as their Saviour.
"Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Either you trust him as your Saviour in this life or he will be your Judge on Judgement Day.
"And he will say on that day, Depart from me into Everlasting Darkness, for I never knew you."

Just because the bible says that doesn't make it true.
Dianetics says that Xenu is trying to control you through Thetans, but that doesn't make it true.
Hell, I'm a minister in the Universal Life Church; ergo, I pretty much have my own religion. Doesn't mean anything I say is true. Unless it's about the french.

It's Faith, which by it's very nature, can't be proven. Saying it's in the bible is like saying it's in the Enquirer. Doesn't mean anything.

That's why people need to get a grip, and enjoy their faith, without smacking others in the head with it. I know I do.

johnnymk

05-02-2001, 05:25 AM

Well, if your church can get you past the grave, I would be mildly impressed. However, I know that all of the religions that have ever existed are unable to do that.
Jesus offers Eternal Life for free; You don't have to work
for it, you don't have to obey the Ten Commandments, you don't have to give up anything and you don't have to prove anything to God. That's the reason it's called the Gospel, or good news. He knew we had no way out of the dilemma of facing death, so he died in our place. It's free, free, free for the asking!

jase71

05-02-2001, 05:41 AM

You know all the other religions in the world are unable to get you past the grave, but Christianity can?

How many times have you died? And to die once as a member of each religion, wow. I'm impressed. All that just to see which one was right.

Frankly, picking a religion is a lot like betting on a horse race. You can suspect who's going to win, you can hope who's going to win, but just like a horse race, you won't really KNOW until the end of the race. So you pick the best you can, and have faith that you're right.

Which is why arguing over religion seems a little silly to me. Everyone believes they are right with all their heart. Who would knowingly pick the "wrong" religion?

But ultimately, we won't find out until we each kick the bucket and see for ourselves.

Basically, anyone who claims to have all the answers, but hasn't personally died yet to find out is just talking smack.

fakesurfers

05-02-2001, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by jase71

Which is why arguing over religion seems a little silly to me. Everyone believes they are right with all their heart. Who would knowingly pick the "wrong" religion?

What about the Scientologists? :laugh: Even they have to suspect it's a load of manure.

I'm going for the Bart Simpson method, a lifetime of sin and then the easy deathbed conversion, recantation.

No muss, no fuss.

I think Jebus and I will have a good laugh about the legions of suckers who did it the hard way. :laugh:

johnnymk

05-02-2001, 07:22 AM

What if you get hit by a car(driven by John Travolta or Tom Cruise) and you don't have time to recant?

ironchef

05-02-2001, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by johnnymk
Well, if your church can get you past the grave, I would be mildly impressed. However, I know that all of the religions that have ever existed are unable to do that.
does that include christianty?

Jesus offers Eternal Life for free; You don't have to work for it, you don't have to obey the Ten Commandments, you don't have to give up anything and you don't have to prove anything to God. That's the reason it's called the Gospel, or good news. He knew we had no way out of the dilemma of facing death, so he died in our place. It's free, free, free for the asking!
wow, i can't believe you just said that.

you, my friend, have just outlined the very basis for why i won't ever subscribe to a christian belief.

How, how, how! can you promote ANYTHING by saying that the most basic and fundamental laws of it don't have to be followed? How?! You call this good news - living a morally defunct life, playing Pascal's cute little wager, just claiming to believe in something in the off chance that it might be true?!

What kind of God is this that I don't have to prove anything to him? Why the hell would I worship something that by your explanation is no better than myself? Why worship something that doesn't value the good in me? Hmm?

It's a fear-mongering establishment. You live your life in fear of death, you face death with the fear of judgement. You subjegate yourself to the whims of a ghost and damn yourself and others for having the brief glimpses of life without fear. Now is the only life worth living.

I value life. I value the good in people. I value the things that I can experience now. I don't ask for sacrifices and don't make them.

And let's talk about sacrifice. God sacrificed Jesus, yes? People sacrifice money for the good of the poor. Folks used to sacrifice animals to the old god in the bible. Do you know what a sacrifice is? A sacrifice is giving up that which you value for something that you don't value, or value less. What kind of light does that cast on the relationship of God to us? Us to God? Us to others? This is the basis of your religion and your morals.

If there is a God, I hope she's a Judge sitting in a court of law. Maybe she'll look at each person and say, "You there, you lived by your own conviction and acted with your own preservation and interest as your motives. You didn't claim to act for the benefit of others or claim to value life when all you really wanted was a lofty home in the grave. You demonstrated a love for life and for that you will be rewarded."

jase71

05-02-2001, 08:44 AM

Well said, Ironchef.

Christianity often seems too much like an exclusive country club to me. You're either a member, and thus a step above everyone else, or you're not a member, and damned in their eyes.

If there is a God, I would hope he/she would judge us each by our individual merits, by our actions, by what is in our hearts, and NOT by whether we were "Members of the Club".

Frankly, if "Membership in the Club" is the sole determiner of acceptance, I'm not sure I'd want to get in.

DeepTrout

05-02-2001, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by jase71

Christianity often seems too much like an exclusive country club to me. You're either a member, and thus a step above everyone else, or you're not a member, and damned in their eyes.

Can't we all just get along?

johnnymk

05-02-2001, 11:54 AM

If you live by the law, you will be judged by the law. Also, if you believe in a God who weighs your supposedly good deeds against your supposedly bad deeds, you still wouldn't make it. Fortunately, Jesus fulfilled the Law whwn he died, and he accepts those who believe in his free gift of Salvation. If you want to prove what a decent guy you are to God, please try, but it's not going to please God.

sbp

05-02-2001, 12:01 PM

"Christianity often seems too much like an exclusive country club to me. You're either a member, and thus a step above everyone else, or you're not a member, and damned in their eyes." Most Christians are also made fun of and looked down upon by the much of the left as ignorant bigots. :disa:

[Edited by sbp on 05-02-2001 at 12:06 PM]

ironchef

05-02-2001, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by johnnymk
If you live by the law, you will be judged by the law. Also, if you believe in a God who weighs your supposedly good deeds against your supposedly bad deeds, you still wouldn't make it. Fortunately, Jesus fulfilled the Law whwn he died, and he accepts those who believe in his free gift of Salvation.
What law are we speaking of, here? Your Christian laws, which operate off the premise that you're to practice something which by your very nature of being human you can't practice? Or human laws, which judge people on a (purportedly) rational basis?

We're born sinners, according to Christianity. Then left to try to follow Jesus and his perfection, but can't do so because we're human. Sounds like Hell should be a lot fuller than Heaven if that's the case.

If you want to prove what a decent guy you are to God, please try, but it's not going to please God.
Are you speaking for God now, Johnny? What is it God wants from me?

ironchef

05-02-2001, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by sbp
Most Christians are also made fun of and looked down upon by the much of the left as ignorant bigots. :disa:

[Edited by sbp on 05-02-2001 at 12:06 PM]
How'd you get politics involved in this?

And I noticed you removed atheist from your original comment. Are you stating that all leftists are also atheist heathens? Or are all atheists flaming liberals?

sbp

05-02-2001, 12:23 PM

"And I noticed you removed atheist from your original comment. Are you stating that all leftists are also atheist heathens? Or are all atheists flaming liberals?"Yup it was edited. Can't forget about Reverend Jesse "Lovedaddy" Jackson and Reverend Al. :disa:
Most atheists are of the leftist persuasion.

jase71

05-02-2001, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by sbp
Most Christians are also made fun of and looked down upon by the much of the left as ignorant bigots. :disa:

And much of the left is made fun of and looked down on by the right as "liberal weenies" and "bleeding heart liberals" (or much worse) for their beliefs.

It's not a political issue of left and right, and it's not something specific to Christianity. It occurs in many religions. Christianity is the subject of this thread, however.

I distrust anyone or anything that claims to have all the answers, and the ONLY answers to such important questions.
Anyone who claims to have ALL the answers is selling something.

sbp

05-02-2001, 12:31 PM

"And much of the left is made fun of and looked down on by the right as "liberal weenies" and "bleeding heart liberals" (or much worse) for their beliefs." Nah. Just some of them. http://www.geocities.com/sbp7777/wink.x And just because a person is a liberal weenie doesn't mean that person is bad at heart or a bigot.

ironchef

05-02-2001, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by sbp
Yup it was edited. Can't forget about Reverend Jesse "Lovedaddy" Jackson and Reverend Al. :disa:
Most atheists are of the leftist persuasion.

Hehe, the good reverends! Certainly can't forget about those two shining examples of good christians not following God's basic laws.

Those two are certain to go straight to heaven!

Y2J

05-02-2001, 12:36 PM

The question of the relative values of law and faith was not and is not simply a matter of opinions. It is a life-and-death problem for both Judaism and Christianity.

Judaism resolutely maintained that deed was paramount; that only action could express faith and attitudes. Christianity firmly held that faith was supreme; that deeds enacted as religious observances were inimical to right faith and served to divert man from his ordained goals.

The salient example and root cause of this clash was the persistent assertion by Judaism that a man could never become a Jew without circumcision, which is the mark of the covenant, the external sign of the inner transformation. The new Christians at the turn of the millennium could not expect to convert pagans if they were to insist upon circumcision as an absolute prerequisite. They then proceeded to declare it completely unnecessary, and even counterproductive to the religious life of a Christian, which demanded a man's soul, not his practice.

Until this point in the life of the new religion, the Jewish Sages had regarded their views as untenable, absurd, even un-Jewish, but they explicitly considered these Jewish "Christians" as sectarians, remaining within the fold of Judaism. Now, with the Christian annulment of the requirement of circumcision, they ruled that rejecting a Torah-required practice could not be countenanced and that the endorsers of this idea could no longer be considered within the ambit of the Jewish religion. No longer were they merely backsliding Jews; they were public betrayers who perverted the faith and then abandoned it.

The repudiation of Torah and the claim to possess a successor superior to it have been the contentions of Christians from the very beginning. The "good news" of the apostles was chiefly that the chains of the "law" had been lifted and superseded by faith. Paul's attacks against the law in Judaism are fundamental to Christianity.

The law was the first impediment inherited from Judaism and it had to be jettisoned as obsolete and even harmful. Whereas Judaism holds that ethics and morality are preserved by the law, Christianity contends that they are bludgeoned by the law. The dispute continues to this very day; it is the reason for the canard, glibly repeated by multitudes of Christians, that the "Old Testament" emphasizes a God of revenge and the "New Testament" emphasizes a God of love.

That view will not withstand a moment's glance at the history of religious wars, which will quickly demonstrate whether it was law or faith that preserved the spirit of love.

The law, therefore, will forever be the strongest element of contention between Judaism and Christianity, for its existence spells the negation of Christianity and its abrogation the negation of Judaism.

In fact, far from being enslaved by the law, Jews were enamored with it.

The law, so much criticized by its daughter faith as severe and unforgiving and identified with the "dead letter," is mayim chayim, refreshing, life-restoring, living waters to Jews; the sweetness of honey and milk, the joy and strength of wine, and the healing power of oil. It is an "elixir of life" that brings healing to all.

LPMiller

05-02-2001, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by sbp
"And I noticed you removed atheist from your original comment. Are you stating that all leftists are also atheist heathens? Or are all atheists flaming liberals?"Yup it was edited. Can't forget about Reverend Jesse "Lovedaddy" Jackson and Reverend Al. :disa:
Most atheists are of the leftist persuasion.

Prove it.

You can't, because it is in fact not true.

sbp

05-02-2001, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by LPM

Originally posted by sbp
"And I noticed you removed atheist from your original comment. Are you stating that all leftists are also atheist heathens? Or are all atheists flaming liberals?"Yup it was edited. Can't forget about Reverend Jesse "Lovedaddy" Jackson and Reverend Al. :disa:
Most atheists are of the leftist persuasion.

Prove it.

You can't, because it is in fact not true. Its not? How many atheists have you heard of that were conservatives?

LPMiller

05-02-2001, 05:57 PM

plenty. Being fiscally conservative doesn't always mean being religious. Wanting a strong military doesn't have to mean a belief in god.

I also know very devout liberals.

You always make a mistake when you paint with a wide brush, and yes, I realize saying always is the same mistake. heh.

ProMinx

05-02-2001, 06:09 PM

I just have to say that I love German Superman's name...
That and I am a believer...
ProMinx

sbp

05-02-2001, 06:26 PM

I said most athetists were of the leftist persuasion not all.

Its true being of the rightist persuasion does not mean a person is religous. A person can be agnostic like the good man marrying my younger sister at the end of this month.

"I also know very devout liberals."Absolutely there are liberals who are devoutly religous.

[Edited by sbp on 05-02-2001 at 06:40 PM]

VACILLO

05-02-2001, 08:42 PM

Ok this will probaly be one of the hardest things you will ever do But I urge you to pray This may be seem foolish to do if you don't believe In God But think about it, it won't hurt or harm you. And you may just come to find the most comfort and peace you can ever find.
Ask and you will recieve an answer Believe I did.
But Don't My Word for it.
Look in James chapter one Verse 5

{"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."}

Here are some thoughts and ideas I believe in.
I believe in God. And I know he lives.
I believe God is perfect. He is perfect, all-wise, all powerfull, mericeful, Kind and Just
I believe God is Our father in Heaven. I Believe That we are created in his image
I believe that We are Children of our Father in Heaven. Think about that, Just Think how great a Thought it is to think I am a Child of God! A God that Love's and Care for me.
I believe That God, Has a Greater Plan,
I believe God Loves us, ALL of us, He wants us to do well, To progress, To be Happy.
I also Believe he wants us to be more like him , to return to him,
We have the Potential To be like God,
I believe the Plan He has, was prepared to bring us joy in this life and eternal Life with Him.

Here are some Scriptural Resources I hope You will Read.
Mosiah 4:9 (" Believe in God, ... Believe that he has all wisdom, and power}
Genesis 1:26-27 {"God Created Man in his own Image"}
Matthew 5:48 {"Be Ye therefore perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect"}
Acts 17:24-29 {"We are the Offspring of God"}
Romans 8:16 {"We are Children of God"}
Also look here
2 CORINTHIANS 13:1 {".... In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established"}
John 10:14-16 {"Christ visits His other Sheep"}
"2 NEPHI 25: Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy•.
This comes from Scriptures I Read and Believe in. It is Called
"The Book of Mormon Another testament of Jesus Christ"
Which I believe to be another witness of Jesus Christ after the resurrection in America

I also Believe That Part of his Plan Is Freedom to choose,
I believe he allows us to our own decisions and learn from them,
Though Jesus Christ's Sacrifice and Resurrection,
We Can Over Come the effects of sin and all Men will live again after mortal death.
We Can Be Forgiving.

John 14:15 {"If ye love me. Keep my Commandments"}
1 Nephi 11:32-33 {"Jesus Christ was Slain for the Sins of the world"}

Knowledge is power Read The Bible.
Hope All is well
Best Regards All
Vacillo

xsiled

05-02-2001, 08:55 PM

hey i got an idea lets all stop argueing and fallow bob dole's way to complete a goal. just lose ; )

johnnymk

05-03-2001, 03:02 AM

We are not all Children of God; we are all creatures of God. Check your Bible. Only those who are born again are Children of God.

DeepTrout

05-06-2001, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by xsiled
hey i got an idea lets all stop argueing and fallow bob dole's way to complete a goal. just lose ; )

:cool:

mrbaseball

05-06-2001, 03:08 AM

Just a thought...
A lot of you speak of how God should judge us based on our merits, how we've lived our lives, how sincere our convictions may have been. But does it strike you that morality can differ very dramatically across different cultures and varying historical frameworks? What exactly is a "good" life? According to who and why should I accept this voice of authority? That's where everything gets so problematic... what's your standard for morality? From where does it come... and please don't say, "we all know what's right and wrong". I live in the heart of LA, and I've worked with and I've conversed with a wide range of people and let me tell you, a sense of ethics is not the same for everyone.
If there is no God and no real ultimate basis for morality... on what basis do I encourage a disheartened and very disillusioned teen to not kill or rob or swindle? The threat of punishment, societal standards? Trust me, they scoff at that idea... as it is, so many are suffering under the law (both justly AND unjustly); they figure they might as well get what they can while they can.
How many of you actually believe there is no real and ultimate "right" and "wrong"... don't be so quick to raise your hand. Isn't it wrong to rape a woman or to molest a child? Of course it is. But why? Sure our sense of morality keeps society in order but is that all it is? Morality is solely a pragmatic concern? So there is nothing inherently "good" or "evil"? What is practical for one society may be impractical for another all depending on what this "practicality" is based upon. Even when judging the societies of the past and present that we deem "immoral", we can't forget that their actions, however repugnant to us, were practical to them, be it only for the domination/exploitation of the weak, the survival of their group, or even a high value they've placed on hedonism.

So there must be a standard that transcends practical concerns. Now I'm getting redundant but... what is that standard?

Just a few thoughts. This is definitely a springboard for the issue at hand - religion, God, Christianity.