How do you feel about saving yourself for marriage/your lifemate?

[Bires]

Yup, it's the spin off thread. These are YOUR opinions on your experiences, not anyone else. I'll try and include some gray area because I know no issue is black and white.

Me...I am SO glad I waited. A few times I almost didn't make it, but boy, am I glad I did.

I know exactly what blows my wife's mind. Best of all, she knows I've never compared her to another woman, and I know I have her entire attention. Despite what Hollywood would try to convince us, sex is AWESOME with a single mate.

Oh yeah...no rubber involved or needed! :)

[InfiniteNothing]

Wait wait wait. Does this have anything to do with the thread at hand. Are you trying to prove a point or is this just a masterbatory act?


Oh and to answer the question I'm damn happy I didn't wait to get on the love boat. I can't imagine missing out on all these years of great sex. It's awsome knowing what else is out there and never having any doubts about what I'm missing; learning things I could never learn with just one woman. And hey, no rubber needed (now).

[DankNstickY]

um... sex is fun whenever. yay.

[kimchicowboy]

i'm waiting. hopefully no more than 5 years. hehehehe. just got to find the girl first.

[molecularfire]

Not so much saving myself for marriage as for when I am ready to have children.

[Nanotech9]

23... going on 24... getting damn impatient. probably not gonna make it to 24.

[Bires]

Wait wait wait. Does this have anything to do with the thread at hand. Are you trying to prove a point or is this just a masterbatory act?

Still making friends, eh IN?

Man...


Did I poop on your thread?

Why are you so bitter against those that would encourage morality and cleaner living?

[Jenny]

I wish I'd waited, yup. :(

[WhiskeyPapa]

24 is nothin'. I have a friend who just got married at 38 years old. Yes, he waited. And it's not like he's ugly or anything, either.

Oh yeah...no rubber involved or needed! :)Keep thinking like that and you'll end up just like me. Call me later and I'll hook you up with one of those 15 passenger vans.

[oblongmelon]

24 is nothin'. I have a friend who just got married at 38 years old. Yes, he waited. And it's not like he's ugly or anything, either.
Keep thinking like that and you'll end up just like me. Call me later and I'll hook you up with one of those 15 passenger vans.

LOL do you hold a van franchise now? how many kids its it? 7 right? I THINK THATS GREAT~! keep going..nothing like big family...I wish I had more than 4....

[WhiskeyPapa]

We had 7 when I started posting here, but that was four years ago. We're expecting number 10 in October.

[blueindian]

i think it's fine if that's what you want to do and if you don't want to wait that's fine too.

i didn't wait really, but my wife was the first person i had sex with. that was back in high school when we dated (sorry 'bout that swampfox, i know you told me not to but... :shrug: ). we didn't get married for 12 more years and both dated other people during that time.

i guess i can still lecture my kids though and tell them they should wait until they are with the person they are going to marry before they have sex :heh:

[usedillusion]

All the guys "saving" themselves, outta will and not force, should be posted on Got Deals ;)

We all need a deal every now and then, but it doesn't mean we need to spend on the cheapest or most available item up for grabs. I think quality matters, not quantity, but don't necessarily believe there is only one quality man on the planet. Oh and somwhere in this post via backward masking, you will find a direct answer to the question. :P

[Nija]

I believe life should be like an orgy....

[InfiniteNothing]

Still making friends, eh IN?

Man...


Did I poop on your thread?

Why are you so bitter against those that would encourage morality and cleaner living?

Well, not crazy about you using my words. I thought it was more like a counter tread but that it wasn't a logical counterargument. And well that last one is complex and personal.

[zenbooty]

Why are you so bitter against those that would encourage morality and cleaner living?You really set yourself up here when you provoke others with statements like this. What's makes saving yourself any more moral or clean than not saving yourself? What makes you think you are any more moral than IN, or myself?

[Bires]

You really set yourself up here when you provoke others with statements like this. What's makes saving yourself any more moral or clean than not saving yourself? What makes you think you are any more moral than IN, or myself?
Not me, per se...but reactions to many of the Off Topic forum posts of late.

Oh...and although I wasn't arguing that I was more moral than anyone else, I won't apologize for living in an obedient manner that brings honor to my family and God.

[InfiniteNothing]

Thanks Zen, I didn't even notice that he implied that having sex before 18 was immoral and therefore I must be less moral than him. I fell into that pointed question like a fool.

Bires, as for friends: in general I figure the middle path between being a slave towards pleasing everyone and being selfish and pissing off everyone is if 1/3 the people like me, 1/3 the people don't, 1/3 can't make up their minds, and the last 2/3s don't talk to eachother ;)

[zenbooty]

and although I wasn't arguing that I was more moral than anyone else, I won't apologize for living in an obedient manner that brings honor to my family and God.Oh, but you are. You may have not literally said, "I am a more moral person than you," but you definitely stated that saving oneself is a morally superior position to not saving yourself. Or at least, you certainly draw the correlation between celibacy and morality. From there it can be logically inferred that you believe someone who remains celibate until marriage is morally superior to someone who is not, all other things being equal. And I think that's just a bunch of voodoo mumbo jumbo nonsense.

[BrewMaster]

i think in the general understanding of morality, saving yourself is more moral.

the real question is whether you give a sh!t about that moral position. morals mean nothing in this world so I wouldn't get all bent outta shape because someone is calling you immoral. i see no reference to "morals" in the Bible.

so Bires, were you jerking off when you were an unmarried man? how moral was/is that?

[topane]

I was too young my first time but I can't say I regretted it. I had some longer relationships and sex was just icing on a very good cake. As long as you treat your partner with respect and understand the possible consequences of your actions, there is nothing wrong with pre-marital sex.

I don't feel it's necessary to save yourself for marriage, but if that's what you want to do, I won't condemn you for it.

[InfiniteNothing]

i think in the general understanding of morality, saving yourself is more moral.

the real question is whether you give a sh!t about that moral position. morals mean nothing in this world so I wouldn't get all bent outta shape because someone is calling you immoral. i see no reference to "morals" in the Bible.

so Bires, were you jerking off when you were an unmarried man? how moral was/is that?
mo·ral·i·ty http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dmorality) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (mhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif-rhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/abreve.giflhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif-thttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/emacr.gif, mô-)
n. pl. mo·ral·i·ties

The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality.
Virtuous conduct.
A rule or lesson in moral conduct.
Sorry Brew, I don't see any "saving yourself for marriage" in there.

[Booyamos]

Hmmm lets see... if i waited until i got married that would be in like 4 years at the earliest so 5 more years estimate. soo i woulda had 10 years of sex then marriage, or (23+5) 28 years of no sex...

choices choices... seems easy to me. Plus i am not religious so i don't really have to worry about that aspect of it.

[Bires]

...were you jerking off when you were an unmarried man? how moral was/is that?

Masturbation in and of itself is not immoral. It tends to lead to thoughts or actions that are immoral, but the action itself is not.

But, again, my point had nothing to do with relative morality (with respect to others), it had everything to do with how you feel now concerning what you did/are going to do with your virginity.

Most of you know my bias: In addition to education, I'm also a student of Judeo-Christian (Western) theology.

The bible calls virginity a treasure and a gift. I am thrilled that I got to give that gift to a single person, and she returns her thanks for my commitment everytime we make love. Without it, sex is just physical-I wanted something much much more, and I got it by waiting until I was married to my lifemate.

Despite what IN and ZB have claimed, I don't condemn you for having sex before marriage or sex with multiple partners. You're missing out on a lifetime of incredible emotional and spiritual experiences, but it's your choice.

[zenbooty]

Masturbation in and of itself is not immoral. It tends to lead to thoughts or actions that are immoral, but the action itself is not.What kind of immoral thoughts or actions? Enjoyment of it?

But, again, my point had nothing to do with relative morality (with respect to others), it had everything to do with how you feel now concerning what you did/are going to do with your virginity. :johnwoo2: VIRGINITY :fal:


The bible calls virginity a treasure and a gift. I am thrilled that I got to give that gift to a single person, and she returns her thanks for my commitment everytime we make love. Without it, sex is just physical-I wanted something much much more, and I got it by waiting until I was married to my lifemate.Sex doesn't have to be just physical just because you didn't wait to have it with your wife. What would you know about how premarital sex feels, anyway? You've never had it! :heh:


Despite what IN and ZB have claimed, I don't condemn you for having sex before marriage or sex with multiple partners. He just thinks that your engaging in immoral activities, that's all :rolleyes:

(You really shouldn't bait me by name like that, Bires. I was willing to leave you alone on this, but now that you've entered my "grill" space, I gotta do what I gotta do.)


You're missing out on a lifetime of incredible emotional and spiritual experiences, but it's your choice.Hogwash. Losing your virginity does not forever damn you to a life of emotionless and spiritless sex. On this point, all I gotta tell everyone is this: He has no basis upon which to compare premarital relations with anything, since he has not experienced anything of the sort. Ignorance is bliss :P

[ialsohaveadream]

Say what you want about waiting, but those I know that have done it ended up cheating on their spouse, because they were so incredibly curious about what else was out there. I'm content with the fact that I've had enough experience with other women to realize that mine is #1....in all respects. ;)

And now that I wrote that, I'm gonna print it and show it to her....and then get laid.

[Nija]

And now that I wrote that, I'm gonna print it and show it to her....and then get laid.

Your not the only one :P

[InfiniteNothing]

Masturbation in and of itself is not immoral. It tends to lead to thoughts or actions that are immoral, but the action itself is not.So masturbation is fine as long as you have a lobotomy soon after? What's your point?


But, again, my point had nothing to do with relative morality (with respect to others), it had everything to do with how you feel now concerning what you did/are going to do with your virginity.

I don't know how you get that from this

Originally Posted by Bires
Why are you so bitter against those that would encourage morality and cleaner living?

Just say you're sorry and we'll all have a nice day on this one.

[LPMiller]

Despite what IN and ZB have claimed, I don't condemn you for having sex before marriage or sex with multiple partners. You're missing out on a lifetime of incredible emotional and spiritual experiences, but it's your choice.

Ok, this confuses me. Neither my wife nor I waited, I'm not even sure that would have been possible, we were rabbitsl. But the point is, I fail to see what I've missed here after 10 years of marriage to a women I've been with for 21 years.

[Bires]

Research shows us that when highly emotionally intense episodes are experienced, chemicals are released into our brain that burn images and feelings into our long term memory.

Do you remember:
your first kiss?
an auto accident?
a near-death (or near-miss) experiences?
your first sex?

Here's what's really scary: if you were not your mate's first sexual partner, when you do have sex, her brain can't help but dredge up memories of her first time.

Do you want to be compared to someone else? Do you (or will you) enjoy comparing your mate to your first sexual partner?

[ShawnLee]

I'm saving myself, and have no problem saying that it's the moral route. Am I calling you immoral otherwise? I guess so, deal with it. :P

2. A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality.BTW, IN, Saving yourself for marriage falls under this category.

Am I comdemning you to hell if you've had premarital sex? No, cause that'd be redundant.

Edit: Hmm, I just realized I sound like a complete jerk on this post, so I'll clarify my position, and seem like... a jerk with a complete system of thought?

Being someone that anti-religious folks like to call a Bible-thumping fundie freak, I do believe that it is spelled out that sex is a gift from God to be enjoyed withing the sanctity of marriage. It is my belief that anything outside of that is wrong and hence it isn't for me. Call me names for it, accuse me of being on a high-horse, but that's fine.
I believe sex will be that much cooler when I have it with my wife, and it'll be great that our first times were with each other.
And that's how I feel about saving myself for marriage.

[Bires]

I believe sex will be that much cooler when I have it with my wife, and it'll be great that our first times were with each other.
And that's how I feel about saving myself for marriage.

It will. Too bad so many people choose to downgrade such a great thing as sex inside marriage.

BTW: Nice to know there is at least one other person here with strong mental, physical, and emotional discipline. SNAP! ;)

[InfiniteNothing]

Research shows us that when highly emotionally intense episodes are experienced, chemicals are released into our brain that burn images and feelings into our long term memory.

Do you remember:
your first kiss?
an auto accident?
a near-death (or near-miss) experiences?
your first sex?

Here's what's really scary: if you were not your mate's first sexual partner, when you do have sex, her brain can't help but dredge up memories of her first time.

What does that have to do with premarital sex? I'd really like to see a source on the last statement because I really don't believe you. Again, how would you know?


It will. Too bad so many people choose to downgrade such a great thing as sex inside marriage.

BTW: Nice to know there is at least one other person here with strong mental, physical, and emotional discipline. SNAP! ;)

Or someone that's really quite ugly ;) j/k SL, even though you think I'm going to hell.



BTW, IN, Saving yourself for marriage falls under this category.


While it falls under "christian morality" it does not fall under morality in general.

BTW bires, nice job avoiding the whole moral superiority accusations

[ialsohaveadream]

Here's what's really scary: if you were not your mate's first sexual partner, when you do have sex, her brain can't help but dredge up memories of her first time.

Ha ha ha. You're basing that on what? Whenever I have sex with my woman, I don't think of my first time.



Do you want to be compared to someone else? Do you (or will you) enjoy comparing your mate to your first sexual partner?

I do enjoy competition, that's why I play sports. Doesn't hurt my ego to know I'm #1 in another arena. ;)

And like I said, I compared my partner to others I've experienced, and she's #1. This is bad?

[Mike_N_Ike]

Research shows us that when highly emotionally intense episodes are experienced, chemicals are released into our brain that burn images and feelings into our long term memory.

Do you remember:
your first kiss?
an auto accident?
a near-death (or near-miss) experiences?
your first sex?

Here's what's really scary: if you were not your mate's first sexual partner, when you do have sex, her brain can't help but dredge up memories of her first time.

Do you want to be compared to someone else? Do you (or will you) enjoy comparing your mate to your first sexual partner?

Can't the same logic be used to argue that you shouldn't kiss before getting married or else your wife will always be thinking of her first kiss when she kisses you? Or hug...or hold hands...or any type of romantic encounter for that matter???

[Bires]

Can't the same logic be used to argue that you shouldn't kiss before getting married or else your wife will always be thinking of her first kiss when she kisses you? Or hug...or hold hands...or any type of romantic encounter for that matter???

Sure.

How devoted do you want to be to your future/eventual lifemate? Sounds crazy, but imagine the physical and emotional intimacy shared between two people if every sensual experience was explored together.


BTW bires, nice job avoiding the whole moral superiority accusations
I avoid non-issues.

[Bires]

I'd really like to see a source on the last statement because I really don't believe you. Again, how would you know?

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/special.htm
...research with both humans and animals indicates that high levels of stress enhance rather than impair memory -- perhaps by virtue of hormones that are released in response to stress and in turn regulate memory storage (McGaugh, 1992); or perhaps by virtue of activating the amygdala, a subcortical brain structure known to be involved in fear and other emotions (LeDoux, 1996).

I learned this a while ago in my research on neurochemistry...though I can't recall the exact hormones/chemicals involved.

Also fun reads:
http://web.umr.edu/~rhall/neuroscience/06_complex_learning/explicit_implicit.pdf
http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/070467.html

[blueindian]

Here's what's really scary: if you were not your mate's first sexual partner, when you do have sex, her brain can't help but dredge up memories of her first time.



That's the biggest load of bs i've ever read.

When my wife fantasizes about other men it's men she hasn't had sex with...like brad pitt for instance.

my wife is the first person i had sex with and i don't even think about her when we have sex. :heh:

[Mike_N_Ike]

my wife is the first person i had sex with and i don't even think about her when we have sex. :heh:
:laugh:

[oblongmelon]

We had 7 when I started posting here, but that was four years ago. We're expecting number 10 in October.


NO WAY! THAT IS WILD-wtg :)

[johnnymk]

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/special.htm
...research with both humans and animals indicates that high levels of stress enhance rather than impair memory -- perhaps by virtue of hormones that are released in response to stress and in turn regulate memory storage (McGaugh, 1992); or perhaps by virtue of activating the amygdala, a subcortical brain structure known to be involved in fear and other emotions (LeDoux, 1996).



I heard this about ten years ago and didn't want to believe it. But I really think that this process is what causes and prolongs sexual addictions and perversions which are either hard to or impossible to break.

When sex becomes another bodily function like eating, urinating and defecating, it becomes cheap and disposable. That's not the way it was intended, as Bires states.

[ialsohaveadream]

When sex becomes another bodily function like eating, urinating and defecating, it becomes cheap and disposable. That's not the way it was intended, as Bires states.

And how, pray tell, was it "intended"? And who provided the intent?

[ShawnLee]

And how, pray tell, was it "intended"? And who provided the intent?Well, I'd go by the way the Bible states it, but then since you probably won't accept that as a valid source of criticism, I'd point to the psychological data which suggests that extended sexual promiscuity develops into a weakened sense of the value of individuals, or something like that. That, and some other stuff, but I'll be honest in saying I've never really looked into it or studied it, so don't ask for references.

As for providing the intent, again, I'll go off of what some might accept, and call it natural law.

Oh, and...

my wife is the first person i had sex with and i don't even think about her when we have sex. :heh:That's friggin' hilarious.

[Nija]

sex is intended for spreading the male seed as many places as possible, to enusre that your bloodline continues.

sex is an instinct.
pleasure is just a side effect.

[InfiniteNothing]

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/special.htm
...research with both humans and animals indicates that high levels of stress enhance rather than impair memory -- perhaps by virtue of hormones that are released in response to stress and in turn regulate memory storage (McGaugh, 1992); or perhaps by virtue of activating the amygdala, a subcortical brain structure known to be involved in fear and other emotions (LeDoux, 1996).

I learned this a while ago in my research on neurochemistry...though I can't recall the exact hormones/chemicals involved.

Also fun reads:
http://web.umr.edu/~rhall/neuroscience/06_complex_learning/explicit_implicit.pdf
http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/070467.html


No no no. That's obvious. I meant the last statement.
Here's what's really scary: if you were not your mate's first sexual partner, when you do have sex, her brain can't help but dredge up memories of her first time.
Not that it's a problem for me, I just like to think that other women still think of me :king:


I'd point to the psychological data which suggests that extended sexual promiscuity develops into a weakened sense of the value of individuals,


I'd belive that. Esp for women.

[Momma Kitty]

My husband and I both waited, and I wouldn't want it any other way. Yes, you may not learn as many "tricks of the trade" by waiting, but that is half the fun, learning together how to pleasure eachother. :) I don't necessarily think that you should wait all the way until you are married, but until you are with the person you are going to marry (not just the person you love at the time). But again, making sure this is the one person you will make love to is important for that special bonding that occurs.

[InfiniteNothing]

I don't necessarily think that you should wait all the way until you are married, but until you are with the person you are going to marry (not just the person you love at the time).

That's much less judgemental. Marriage is just a peice of paper.

But it's not so much about learning the tricks of the trade as much as it is learning what's out there. It's just amazing to explore someone new. The curves and the crannys. Feeling foreign breasts (they have to be the MOST variable part). What pleases them and what pleases them alot. There's just nothing like new skin to feel. It's almost electric. It's just an altogether new amazing experience to sleep with someone else it's almost as new as sex itself.

It's not just the sex but you remeber thing alot more with other women. Like I remember much better the seconds before my first kiss with another woman. Those few seconds of intense anxiety of will she welcome the kiss, hoping that the kiss would come sooner, and feeling that kiss is absolutly burned in my mind. The thinner lips, how I touched her face softly, the sparkle in her eyes, the cool air, etc.

[eSDee]

Hey Bires if you are religious man why are you living out in Las Vegas? Dont' you think that place is the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah? If the Big Guy (that's right I said Guy ladies :P) upstairs ever wanted to come down and teach us a lesson, Vegas would be the first place to go!



jk mang.

[Grubbie]

Here's what's really scary: if you were not your mate's first sexual partner, when you do have sex, her brain can't help but dredge up memories of her first time.

Do you want to be compared to someone else? Do you (or will you) enjoy comparing your mate to your first sexual partner?

Come on now, just cause they had sex with somebody else doesn't mean they think of that time EVERY time they have sex. Who cares if they compare you to somebody else, if you aren't up to par hopefully they will tell you and you can correct your technique to become better.

If they have had another partner before you have to accept that, you can't just block the knowledge of them being with different people out of your head and believe it hasn't happened.


If people want to wait and save themselves for when they get married, good for them. I will enjoy all the sex I have before I turn 26-28. After the first time, you realize it isn't that big of a deal. IT IS HUMAN ****ING NATURE TO MATE.

Update:

sex is intended for spreading the male seed as many places as possible, to enusre that your bloodline continues.

sex is an instinct.
pleasure is just a side effect.

So true, if you think of an alpha male, they mate with all the females they can to pass on their genes for survival.

[InfiniteNothing]

After the first time, you realize it isn't that big of a deal. IT IS HUMAN ****ING NATURE TO MATE.

I just want to clear up what you mean: You mean it's not a big deal morally, not it's not a big deal physically, spiritually, emotionally right? I'm trying to save you from defending yourself later

[Grubbie]

I just want to clear up what you mean: You mean it's not a big deal morally, not it's not a big deal physically, spiritually, emotionally right? I'm trying to save you from defending yourself later

All of the above.

[topane]

sex is intended for spreading the male seed as many places as possible, to enusre that your bloodline continues.

sex is an instinct.
pleasure is just a side effect.:stupid:

It's all biology, kids. If you want to attach your morality to it, go ahead if it works for you ;).

[Bires]

Hey Bires if you are religious man why are you living out in Las Vegas? Dont' you think that place is the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah?

Yup, pretty much. Exactly why I'm here. The mission field is vast here, dense with people that are searching for truth, but don't know where to find it. Just like the internet.


It's all biology, kids. If you want to attach your morality to it, go ahead if it works for you ;).

Hmm... reducio ad adsurdum:
If we are driven purely by biology, then why should murder by immoral? It is afterall culling society by elimination of the weak so the strong may prosper.

No. Our triumph over our biological urges is one of the things that makes us a higher lifeform. With our gift of a soul comes with it self perception, altruism, guilt, and self discipline, among other human traits.

[topane]

Hmm... reducio ad adsurdum:
If we are driven purely by biology, then why should murder by immoral? It is afterall culling society by elimination of the weak so the strong may prosper.Hmmmm, yes... sex = biology therefore murder = moral. Nice strawman, amigo ;).


No. Our triumph over our biological urges is one of the things that makes us a higher lifeform. With our gift of a soul comes with it self perception, altruism, guilt, and self discipline, among other human traits.No. Our biological makeup makes us a higher lifeform. The "triumph" over our urges is good for the species and is a result of our intelligence. As a whole, we know that popping out babies all over the land isn't necessarily good for our (or their) lives, finances, etc. so we put thought into the process. Yes, there are exceptions, but most people I've known don't just pump out kids willy-nilly. They plan: make sure finances are OK, make sure they live in a decent house, good school district, etc.

[chadlnc]

my wife is the first person i had sex with and i don't even think about her when we have sex. :heh:
After posting your desktop picture I'm sure someone is thinking about her :P

[Bires]

...there are exceptions, ...They plan: make sure finances are OK, make sure they live in a decent house, good school district, etc.

Are these the majority in the world or the exceptions?

BTW: topane: look up "reductio ad absurdum" as a classic apologetics technique.

[topane]

Are these the majority in the world or the exceptions?
I was saying the majority think about it before having kids, at least in our part of the world.


BTW: topane: look up "reductio ad absurdum" as a classic apologetics technique.Oversimplification, usually fallacious, as in your example above.

[Bires]

Oversimplification, usually fallacious, as in your example above.

Wrong. It's presenting a proposition in a situation that creates an impossible or implausible situation. Reduced to absurdity. You propose that humans are run by their biology "it's all biology, kids." If that is so, then their should be little difference between us and wild animals, which are governed predominately by their biological drives and instincts.

Claiming that our motivations are driven purely by biology (I assume that's what you meant by "all") is a means to shirk personal responsability and accountability. I just showed that that conclusion is implausible by distilling your arguement and applying it to another situation that produces an absurd result. Reductio ad absurdum.

[topane]

Claiming that our motivations are driven purely by biology (I assume that's what you meant by "all") is a means to shirk personal responsability and accountability. I just showed that that conclusion is implausible by distilling your arguement and applying it to another situation that produces an absurd result. Reductio ad absurdum.I said no such thing. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned:


As long as you treat your partner with respect and understand the possible consequences of your actions, there is nothing wrong with pre-marital sex.

I was referring to sex. Isn't that what this thread is about?

[ialsohaveadream]

Well, I'd go by the way the Bible states it, but then since you probably won't accept that as a valid source of criticism

Yes and no. I'd accept that you believe the Bible explains what sex was intended for, but I don't know of anywhere in the Bible that says we shouldn't view sex as a natural function.


I'd point to the psychological data which suggests that extended sexual promiscuity develops into a weakened sense of the value of individuals, or something like that. That, and some other stuff, but I'll be honest in saying I've never really looked into it or studied it, so don't ask for references.


I minored in psych, and my fiance is a therapist working towards her master's. Doesn't sound familiar. Plus, I think she would've heard of it, since she goes to a Christian university.

[johnnymk]

Yes and no. I'd accept that you believe the Bible explains what sex was intended for, but I don't know of anywhere in the Bible that says we shouldn't view sex as a natural function.



I minored in psych, and my fiance is a therapist working towards her master's. Doesn't sound familiar. Plus, I think she would've heard of it, since she goes to a Christian university.

Check the Bible for the word "fornication". It says a lot about this practice outside of marriage. If you want, I can quote several verses, but I don't think you would want to hear them.

[ialsohaveadream]

I think you're misunderstanding me. I said I don't know of any scriptures that say we shouldn't view sex as a natural function. It is a natural function, just like eating, drinking, and sleeping, it's necessary for survival, only in a more indirect way than the others.

[ShawnLee]

I think you're misunderstanding me. I said I don't know of any scriptures that say we shouldn't view sex as a natural function. It is a natural function, just like eating, drinking, and sleeping, it's necessary for survival, only in a more indirect way than the others.No one says it's not natural. In fact the Bible emphasizes the fact and says that there is a reason that man will leave his parents and become on with his wife. But the thing is that this is not an intended for outside of marriage.

[Bires]

...leave his parents and become on with his wife...
:heh:
You mean "one with his wife..." ;)

[ShawnLee]

Nah, I meant he should get it on in the Marvin Gaye sense of the word. J/K

Yes, I meant "become one with his wife."

[welfareloser]

boy, what a bunch of fear-mongering. yes, strong emotion makes strong memories. if your wife was ever in love with someone else, she will be thinking about that man's face from time to time... when you don't even know about it... maybe even, horror of horrors, wondering what sex might have been like with him... has she ever been in love before you? what about a crush? do you even know? MY GOD MAN, RUN AND FIND OUT NOW SO YOU CAN TRY TO NIP THIS IN THE BUD!!!!!!! CONTROL THIS!!!!

i think those who wait are hopefully doing something good for themselves, and they should be able to feel good about it. if they have been forced into it be shame-mongering parents, it's not a positive thing, at all. i've known people like that who have never been able to enjoy sex with their eventual spouse, which is heartbreaking to both of them. and their parents are the ones who should be ashamed. those who don't wait are hopefully doing something good for themselves... safely having enjoyable sex. some people do it for the wrong reasons, or can't feel good about it because of self-esteem or other issues, and it is similarly heartbreaking.

i had sex once with my first serious bf, after which he decided he wasn't actually ready for sex (i know, i had to find the one friggin 16-year-old boy who felt he wasn't emotionally ready for sex... arrrrggghhh!!! i sure can pick em) and so we both became born-again virgins for the second year of our relationship. when that ended, i began dating another virgin, and we fell madly in love, starting having wonderful sex like rabbits within a few months, and married many years later. he had serious issues with shame and control when it came to sex, and he deteriorated over the years.

fast forward to my divorce... after two years of very unpleasant forced sexual episodes, once my husband was out and had a restraining order keeping him away, i decided not to let any "shame" over others opinions of sexual freedom get in my way (that is, i decided i didn't care if anyone thought i was a slut), and had absolutely wonderful sex with a dear friend, nodamnedsense. he had been with many women in the past, he was in the process of breaking up with his girlfriend, neither one of us had gotten laid in a while, and we had some wonderful sex for 4 weeks.

then i hooked up with another dear friend whom i am now married to. guess what... the last guy i slept with, nodamnedsense, is my husband's best friend. he knows i slept with nds. he knows it was fun for both of us (since we both told him all about it!) and it doesn't bother him one damned bit. the past is the past. he doesn't worry about me being in a room alone with the guy - it's happened at least twice in the last month. he doesn't worry about whether or not i ever think about it. i have known my husband for just a smidge over 20 years. he's only been my significant other for the past three. the past is the past. we both know that, and getting at all worked up about where someone's heart (or p****) was before it belonged to you is a great way to drive yourself nuts and make yourself an ******* to the person you're supposed to love. i cherish the memory of sex with nds and have no shame or regrets. it's a part of who i am, and my husband loves who i am, and neither one of us would change it even if we could. i am glad to have that between us, and so is nds. it did not in any way diminish the depth of feeling for my husband (i am deeply in love with my husband, and the sex is the best i've ever had. if it was any better, my brain would stop working and i wouldn't be able to walk. so i'm having a hard time thinking that somehow not saving myself for him destroyed some fragile wonderful thing that i can never again recapture... cowpies, i say!) nor did it enhance it (there's nothing i learned elsewhere that i couldn't have learned with my husband)... it was what it was, good sex with a good friend. i don't think going out and sampling the wares and gaining skills is at all necessary... you can learn it all with the one person you saved yourself for. i similarly don't think it that virginity is some special thing that can utterly alter some important facet of your life if it is not disposed of properly.

please keep your religion off me, is all i'm saying. realize that i am more than happy to respect your opinions of preserved virginity as precious and premarital sex as immoral - because of your viewpoint, those are good choices for you and you should feel good about doing it. however, i can only respect these opinions so long as you are willing to accept the fact that sex for me is not what it is for you, and that my choice, made outside of your religion, is a valid and moral choice for me. my choices were the right choices. they hurt nobody. including myself. if you see me in hell because of it, feel free to shake your head in sorrow (or gloat), but unless and until that happens, leave me outside of your system of christian morality.

anyway. my point: the only reason any reasonable non-religious sex afficionado ever gets upset at the mention of relgiously restricted sex is when it is mentioned as obviously superior to any other way of thinking about sex. as was done here. anyone who simply says they save themselves for themselves, and leaves any mention of moral inferiority of others and what someone else ought to be doing out of it, doesn't take any crap from anyone else. you might be able to prove that to yourself if you'd just try it...

for example: i will hold kb0wwwpbop (or however you spell it ;) ) as a shining example of virtue... he has very strong opinions about premarital sex and christianity in general. he makes his opinions known. his opinions are easy to respect, both because they are well stated and because i've never known him to imply that anyone else was inferior in any way to him because of their different opinions. (now, he may well be thinking i'm evil and just biting his tongue, in which case he's simply a good example of putting on a good show :P )

[WhiskeyPapa]

Wow, wf. I'm glad I resisted the urge to say "You're all a bunch of sinners!"

[zenbooty]

Always good to have Welfare grace us with her presence again.

[InfiniteNothing]

Good words WL. I knew bringing the debate back to the OT forum was a good idea.

[Nija]

:love:

I love you :love2:

[Bires]

...if you see me in hell because of it...

That's exactly what many of us religious nuts are trying to avoid.

You've made your choice(s), but please understand that not everyone has, and until the end of this world, there will be those of us out here saying the unpopular things to open eyes and ears to an often-neglected truth.

[welfareloser]

That's exactly what many of us religious nuts are trying to avoid.

You've made your choice(s), but please understand that not everyone has, and until the end of this world, there will be those of us out here saying the unpopular things to open eyes and ears to an often-neglected truth.

see that's just fine. preach all you want. i kinda missed the part where you were helpfully trying to bring others to your way of thinking, but if that's what you think you were doing, whatever. but you missed the point entirely...

you're imposing your morality on others in an offensive manner and THEN scratching your head like you don't get why this might result in people attacking your morality code. you want to attack without being attacked.

people will be as smug and annoying to you as you are to them.

[Bires]

i kinda missed the part where you were helpfully trying to bring others to your way of thinking...

What did you have in mind?



you're imposing your morality on others in an offensive manner

What, specifically, did you find offensive?

[welfareloser]

Why are you so bitter against those that would encourage morality and cleaner living?

You're missing out on a lifetime of incredible emotional and spiritual experiences

Here's what's really scary: if you were not your mate's first sexual partner, when you do have sex, her brain can't help but dredge up memories of her first time.

Do you want to be compared to someone else? Do you (or will you) enjoy comparing your mate to your first sexual partner?

How devoted do you want to be to your future/eventual lifemate? Sounds crazy, but imagine the physical and emotional intimacy shared between two people if every sensual experience was explored together.

Too bad so many people choose to downgrade such a great thing as sex inside marriage.

BTW: Nice to know there is at least one other person here with strong mental, physical, and emotional discipline.


okay, here's the progression...

wait, first off, before i dissect, let me say this...

i will give you the benefit of the doubt and grant that you are genuinely interested in bringing people into the light. great intent, crappy execution. instead of throwing up your hands and wondering why everyone finds your attempts at saving them so offensive and reacts to them badly, let me let you in on something: YOU ARE GETTING SOME VALUABLE FEEDBACK. DON'T IGNORE IT. here's my motto... if you think you're surrounded by ***holes, it's probably you that's the problem, not everybody else.

so. your attempts are abrasive. if you actually want to make progress and have people listen to you, pay attention. you come off as smugly congratulating yourself for your own moral superiority, nto as someone who is interested in helping others. hence, your "help" gets rebuffed.

the first quote... nobody is going to react favorably to "why are you such a poop to me when i'm just trying to make you as cool as ME?"

the next one... nobody is going to react favorably to "you permanently messed everything up and will never be as happy as ME!!!!"

the next three are just fear-mongering silliness. you sound like a scary guy who'd love to beat someone up for their past. luckily, most people don't do that. the kind of people who harp on "oh yeah, but was (s)he better than ME?!?!?" are the ones with the problem and tend to get dumped for a good reason. right now, as i read over those three quotes again, i'm thinking of several people that i personally know who might have said the exact same things... controlling people who want to harp on the faults of others to obscure their own. i'm not saying that's what you're like. i'd be willing to bet you're not. i'm telling you how such statements come off.

the next one "too bad so many people downgrade..." by "so many people" you seem to be referring to the people who have spoken up here as having had premarital sex. it's extremely offensive that you are calling our eventual marital sex degraded. here's where i'm coming from: i was married to a man who made marital sex a nightmare. the next guy i had sex with i never married and never had any intention of marrying, and sex was wonderful, positive for both of us. sexual healing, if you will. the marital sex i have now is emotionally, spiritually, and physically satisfying in a very deep and wonderful way. from my non-religious POV, marriage is a piece of paper that some people choose to wipe their butts with, and anyone who wants to knock me for having sex outside of marriage or imply that my marital sex is in any way inferior ought to have some sense knocked into them. that particular statement was deeply offensive to me, and i'm sure didn't make a lot of other people particularly happy, either.

and the last one... deeply offensive that you think nothing of implying that anyone who has premarital sex lacks discipline. it was a choice, not a weakness. discipline for discipline's sake is silly. i could starve myself. i could whip my back til i bleed. to no purpose. that's what denying myself sex is to me... stupid. it means nothing. don't impugn my willpower. i chose not to apply it to sex.

as for what i had in mind... tell people you're glad you waited. tell them how great sex is with your wife and that you don't feel you missed anything by not sleeping with others. lead by example. you did some of that, but then you screwed it all up.

again, if you want to yell at people for making what you see as the wrong choice, fine. but when you you say stuff like "why are you so bitter about someone who just advocates clean living..." huh-uh. that's where i have to point out that that's NOT what you were doing. people got offended because you were offensive.

[Bires]

Thanks for the info. I can see why you're upset. My lens is one where I encounter 200-300 high school students on a daily basis. Many of them are VERY confused about sexuality, morality, and so many other social privileges they have been given during puberty.

I never meant to condemn anyone for their decision concerning virginity; I wanted to provide an alternate solution to so much of the sex is something to be pursued at all costs mentality that seems to pervade popular media and the internet (esp. here recently).

My audience was those that have yet to make that decision, and are still digesting it. (at *any* age)

Again, I would pose the question: How would you respond a few years from now when your 14 year-old daughter informs you she plans to have sex with her date after a middle school dance?

I've talked with many teenagers concerning the issue of sex, and I am proud to be able to tell them what they are gaining by waiting, rather than just what they are avoiding. To those kids, I am living by example, and I will never apologize for telling them what's best for them physically, socially, and spiritually.

[usedillusion]

People mistake sex as the all-time irrational decision when in a lot of cases, it's actually marriage and self-limitation. Kids in the old days, and even still, would jump the gun into getting married because of their parents, nuns, whatever, laying the myopic view of "marrige or no intimacy" on them. I'm really not saying people should encourage their kids to live lives of debauchery.

However, marriage is also a decision that, believe it or not, is susceptible to being totally miserable. This day and age is about information, learning, and information. It's like when women discovered they had more capabilities than being barefoot in the kitchen. When they stepped out into the real world of opportunity and breached limitations, yes, they may have learned or seen some alarming things they wouldn't have had they continued living in their quelled shell of no risk. but that's what it's all about; learning, and taking what we've learned and applying it until we've gotten it as close to perfect as possible.

that's not to say having partner after partner is healthy, or even conducive to the learning process. i just think learning about your own self and what's good for YOU is better than satisfying what's good for other people who act as though they know what's best for you, putting the brakes on self growth and exploration. Similar to what welfare said, to me, a piece of paper isn't all that qualifies the 'real' thing, or anything at all, since divorce success rates are at what, ~50%?

Are people who know when to leave a marriage in the gutter with those who have premarital sex? or are they still exempt because they waited? I wonder if those people are going to hurry into a second marriage just to have sex again, like they possibly rushed into the first one.

[welfareloser]

yeah, today's high schools are a cesspool. have you seen the movie "thirteen?" pretty disturbing stuff (interspersed with some damn good sex scenes :D )

i can tell you right now you're not going to make much progress if you're not talking on their level... the stuff you say is going to sound like "blah blah blah..." even though it's scary to imply any sort of self-empowerment when it comes to thirteen-year-olds' sexuality, by far the most effective route is approaching it as "yes, i acknowledge that you might have sex. it is okay to want to have sex. sex feels good. now, here are the possible outcomes of doing it unsafely, doing it safely, and not doing it at all." medical studies show pretty concretely that more kids choose abstinence - for non-religious reasons! - when condoms are presented as an option.

and no daughters here, just three sons, who are likely going to be charismatic and cute. and yep, i've thought about what they're going to be doing and how early they're going to be doing it. i can only offer them my personal experiences, top it off with some big full-color picture of venereal diseases, tell them what pains in the butt they were when they were babies, and hope they do the right thing (which is, oral sex, oral sex, and more oral sex, as early and often as you can get away with it :P )

[Mike_N_Ike]

... and hope they do the right thing (which is, oral sex, oral sex, and more oral sex, as early and often as you can get away with it :P )
:laugh:
Damn you crack me up :heh:

[InfiniteNothing]

Thanks for the info. I can see why you're upset. My lens is one where I encounter 200-300 high school students on a daily basis. Many of them are VERY confused about sexuality, morality, and so many other social privileges they have been given during puberty.

I never meant to condemn anyone for their decision concerning virginity; I wanted to provide an alternate solution to so much of the sex is something to be pursued at all costs mentality that seems to pervade popular media and the internet (esp. here recently).

My audience was those that have yet to make that decision, and are still digesting it. (at *any* age)

Again, I would pose the question: How would you respond a few years from now when your 14 year-old daughter informs you she plans to have sex with her date after a middle school dance?

I've talked with many teenagers concerning the issue of sex, and I am proud to be able to tell them what they are gaining by waiting, rather than just what they are avoiding. To those kids, I am living by example, and I will never apologize for telling them what's best for them physically, socially, and spiritually.

OOOOOOOOooooooh. In that case keep giving advice to teens. But make sure you're advising people (teaching them why not to), not telling people what's right and wrong (preaching). You'll make a longer lasting, healthier more effective impression the latter way. And cut out that fear based approach (again you're going to make the poor kids neurotic)

[ShawnLee]

OOOOOOOOooooooh. In that case keep giving advice to teens. But make sure you're advising people (teaching them why not to), not telling people what's right and wrong (preaching). You'll make a longer lasting, healthier more effective impression the latter way. And cut out that fear based approach (again you're going to make the poor kids neurotic)Question: Have you had a bad experience with a preacher? I'm just wondering why you associate preaching with a shotgun of "values" being pumped at you. Every time I've ever preached to my church kids, or the street mission for that matter, I've given them clear and rational reasons for why they should do whatever they do.

[LPMiller]

Ok, this confuses me. Neither my wife nor I waited, I'm not even sure that would have been possible, we were rabbits. But the point is, I fail to see what I've missed here after 10 years of marriage to a women I've been with for 21 years.

Did I miss the part where someone commented on this? Did I miss the part where someone can tell me how not waiting is causing me or my wife to miss anything?

And I ain't thinking of anyone else when I'm with my wife, thankyouverymuch.

If you want to wait so much, go right ahead, but it's not this +2 Ring of Superiority some seem to think it is. My marriage is a ROCK.

[BrewMaster]

Despite what IN and ZB have claimed, I don't condemn you for having sex before marriage or sex with multiple partners. You're missing out on a lifetime of incredible emotional and spiritual experiences, but it's your choice.

hold on there speedy. when did I say I had pre-marital sex? thanks for not condmening me for something I never did. how gracious of you...:rolleyes: you need to slow down and realize that you don't know everything. in fact, you know very little. LISTEN. shut up and LISTEN for once. I have not had pre-marital sex. Don't assume to know me or categorize me because I disagree with you.

And since you're sitting there on your virtual pulpit preaching and making the rest of us Christians look my mouth-breathing retards, let me put in my 2 cents. Sure I am glad I am waiting til marriage (Feb 19th 2005 I get hitched!). But do I go around shouting about it on the internet and starting threads about it on a forum? No! Why the hell should people on G|A give a crap whether I am a virgin? it ain't their business. And why should I tell them about what they are "missing out on" if they've already lost their virginity? What's the point?

We're not you're 14 year old kids that you minister to all day. Most people here are adults or near adulthood. What some shmuck says on the internet is not going to influence my real life decisions nor anyone else's. Do you get that?

On a "moral" ground I agree with you. But what pisses me off is that you think you know more than you do. Please, step off your religious soap box and go and live in reality if you want to talk to people about their life choices. Go hang out with more kids who are looking for someone to influence their lives or a father figure. If anything you are supporting the "Bible thumper" stereotype that some of us are working very hard to destroy.

[InfiniteNothing]

I'm just wondering why you associate preaching with a shotgun of "values" being pumped at you.

First of all, you are putting words in my mouth. Second of all, I didn't come up with the definition:



To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.

Tedious=pumped

Religious or moral= values

[ShawnLee]

First of all, you are putting words in my mouth. Second of all, I didn't come up with the definition:
Great, you used the second definition in the dictionary, I understand that. I'm asking why you went with the second definition? I'm wondering if you've ever honestly looked at Christianity as being even a remote possiblity, or if you did and had a real bad experience with someone.

[Bires]

...you're sitting there on your virtual pulpit preaching and making the rest of us Christians look my mouth-breathing retards...
Actually, you're doing a pretty good job of that on your own. ;)

BM: don't you care how your fellow G|Aers live? Even though we communicate through a very unorthodox medium, we are a community, and most of us share some wierd sort of bond. The bottom line is we bible thumpers do what we do because we care about the people around us, even those on the internet.

What troubles me about your post is how uncomfortable you are about sharing your life for the benefit of others. I could go around saying "get your mojo on and be cool, yo!" and despite sounding like a dork, it would have little positive effect on anyone, but I would be shielded from insecurity and anxiety of maybe upsetting someone with my post. The problem with that is: that's not Christianity.

Doing what is sometimes percieved as unpopular or uncomfortable for the lifelong and eternal well being of others is what having a relationship with Christ is all about. If salvation was simply about you, you would have dropped dead the moment you were saved. But it's not about you, or us. It's about others.

Some people will respond negatively about what we post/preach. That's their decision and privaledge. Some will accept it in the manner it is intended: to encourage and to even (gasp) teach. Irregardless, it is our duty and privaledge to share our lives with others, and allow them the God-given human right of chosing how to respond to it.

[BrewMaster]

Well Bires, it is clear to me that either you missed the point of my post or that I communicated it poorly. I'm not going to waste my time going back and forth with you on an internet forum. Feel free to email me if you really want to talk about this further.

[InfiniteNothing]

Great, you used the second definition in the dictionary, I understand that. I'm asking why you went with the second definition? I'm wondering if you've ever honestly looked at Christianity as being even a remote possiblity, or if you did and had a real bad experience with someone.

I didn't know of a better word?
I was a highly devout christian at a point in my life (Bible study, Friday nights at the church, christian rock things, etc)
Never really had a bad experience.