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attgig
11-08-2004, 12:27 PM
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/0,,SB109986994931767086-IVjgoNglad3oJutbHqGa62Jm4,00.html


Minding the Store
Analyzing Customers, Best Buy
Decides Not All Are Welcome
Retailer Aims to Outsmart
Dogged Bargain-Hunters,
And Coddle Big Spenders
Looking for 'Barrys' and 'Jills'

By GARY MCWILLIAMS
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
November 8, 2004; Page A1

(See Corrections & Amplifications item below.)

Brad Anderson, chief executive officer of Best Buy Co., is embracing a heretical notion for a retailer. He wants to separate the "angels" among his 1.5 million daily customers from the "devils."

Best Buy's angels are customers who boost profits at the consumer-electronics giant by snapping up high-definition televisions, portable electronics, and newly released DVDs without waiting for markdowns or rebates.

The devils are its worst customers. They buy products, apply for rebates, return the purchases, then buy them back at returned-merchandise discounts. They load up on "loss leaders," severely discounted merchandise designed to boost store traffic, then flip the goods at a profit on eBay. They slap down rock-bottom price quotes from Web sites and demand that Best Buy make good on its lowest-price pledge. "They can wreak enormous economic havoc," says Mr. Anderson.

Best Buy estimates that as many as 100 million of its 500 million customer visits each year are undesirable. And the 54-year-old chief executive wants to be rid of these customers.

Mr. Anderson's new approach upends what has long been standard practice for mass merchants. Most chains use their marketing budgets chiefly to maximize customer traffic, in the belief that more visitors will lift revenue and profit. Shunning customers -- unprofitable or not -- is rare and risky.

Mr. Anderson says the new tack is based on a business-school theory that advocates rating customers according to profitability, then dumping the up to 20% that are unprofitable. The financial-services industry has used a variation of that approach for years, lavishing attention on its best customers and penalizing its unprofitable customers with fees for using ATMs or tellers or for obtaining bank records.

Best Buy seems an unlikely candidate for a radical makeover. With $24.5 billion in sales last year, the Richfield, Minn., company is the nation's top seller of consumer electronics. Its big, airy stores and wide inventory have helped it increase market share, even as rivals such as Circuit City Stores Inc. and Sears, Roebuck & Co., have struggled. In the 2004 fiscal year that ended in February, Best Buy reported net income of $570 million, up from $99 million during the year-earlier period marred by an unsuccessful acquisition, but still below the $705 million it earned in fiscal 2002.

But Mr. Anderson spies a hurricane on the horizon. Wal-Mart Stores Inc., the world's largest retailer, and Dell Inc., the largest personal-computer maker, have moved rapidly into high-definition televisions and portable electronics, two of Best Buy's most profitable areas. Today, they rank respectively as the nation's second- and fourth-largest consumer-electronics sellers.

Mr. Anderson worries that his two rivals "are larger than us, have a lower [overhead], and are more profitable." In five years, he fears, Best Buy could wind up like Toys 'R' Us Inc., trapped in what consultants call the "unprofitable middle," unable to match Wal-Mart's sheer buying power, while low-cost online sellers like Dell pick off its most affluent customers. Toys 'R' Us recently announced it was considering exiting the toy business.

This year, Best Buy has rolled out its new angel-devil strategy in about 100 of its 670 stores. It is examining sales records and demographic data and sleuthing through computer databases to identify good and bad customers. To lure the high-spenders, it is stocking more merchandise and providing more appealing service. To deter the undesirables, it is cutting back on promotions and sales tactics that tend to draw them, and culling them from marketing lists.

As he prepares to roll out the unconventional strategy throughout the chain, Mr. Anderson faces significant risks. The pilot stores have proven more costly to operate. Because different pilot stores target different types of customers, they threaten to scramble the chain's historic economies of scale. The trickiest challenge may be to deter bad customers without turning off good ones.

"Culturally I want to be very careful," says Mr. Anderson. "The most dangerous image I can think of is a retailer that wants to fire customers."

Mr. Anderson's campaign against devil customers pits Best Buy against an underground of bargain-hungry shoppers intent on wringing every nickel of savings out of big retailers. At dozens of Web sites like FatWallet.com, SlickDeals.net and TechBargains.com, they trade electronic coupons and tips from former clerks and insiders, hoping to gain extra advantages against the stores.

At SlickDeals.net, whose subscribers boast about techniques for gaining hefty discounts, a visitor recently bragged about his practice of shopping at Best Buy only when he thinks he can buy at below the retailer's cost. He claimed to purchase only steeply discounted loss leaders, except when forcing Best Buy to match rock-bottom prices advertised elsewhere. "I started only shopping there if I can [price match] to where they take a loss," he wrote, claiming he was motivated by an unspecified bad experience with the chain. In an e-mail exchange, he declined to identify himself or discuss his tactics, lest his targets be forewarned.

Mr. Anderson's makeover plan began taking shape two years ago when the company retained as a consultant Larry Selden, a professor at Columbia University's Graduate School of Business. Mr. Selden has produced research tying a company's stock-market value to its ability to identify and cater to profitable customers better than its rivals do. At many companies, Mr. Selden argues, losses produced by devil customers wipe out profits generated by angels.

Best Buy's troubled acquisitions of MusicLand Stores Corp. and two other retailers had caused its share price and price-to-earnings ratio to tumble. Mr. Selden recalls advising Mr. Anderson: "The best time to fix something is when you're still making great money but your [price-to-earnings ratio] is going down."

Mr. Selden had never applied his angel-devil theories to a retailer as large as Best Buy, whose executives were skeptical that 20% of customers could be unprofitable. In mid-2002, Mr. Selden outlined his theories during several weekend meetings in Mr. Anderson's Trump Tower apartment. Mr. Anderson was intrigued by Mr. Selden's insistence that a company should view itself as a portfolio of customers, not product lines.

Mr. Anderson put his chief operating officer in charge of a task force to analyze the purchasing histories of several groups of customers, with an eye toward identifying bad customers who purchase loss-leading merchandise and return purchases. The group discovered it could distinguish the angels from the devils, and that 20% of Best Buy's customers accounted for the bulk of profits.

In October 2002, Mr. Anderson instructed the president of Best Buy's U.S. stores, Michael P. Keskey, to develop a plan to realign stores to target distinct groups of customers rather than to push a uniform mix of merchandise. Already deep into a cost-cutting program involving hundreds of employees, Mr. Keskey balked, thinking his boss had fallen for a business-school fad. He recalls telling Mr. Anderson, "You've lost touch with what's happening in your business."

Mr. Anderson was furious, and Mr. Keskey says he wondered whether it was time to leave the company. But after meeting with the chief operating officer and with Mr. Selden, Mr. Keskey realized there was no turning back, he says.

Best Buy concluded that its most desirable customers fell into five distinct groups: upper-income men, suburban mothers, small-business owners, young family men, and technology enthusiasts. Mr. Anderson decided that each store should analyze the demographics of its local market, then focus on two of these groups and stock merchandise accordingly.

Best Buy began working on ways to deter the customers who drove profits down. It couldn't bar them from its stores. But this summer it began taking steps to put a stop to their most damaging practices. It began enforcing a restocking fee of 15% of the purchase price on returned merchandise. To discourage customers who return items with the intention of repurchasing them at an "open-box" discount, it is experimenting with reselling them over the Internet, so the goods don't reappear in the store where they were originally purchased.

"In some cases, we can solve the problem by tightening up procedures so people can't take advantage of the system," explains Mr. Anderson.

In July, Best Buy cut ties to FatWallet.com, an online "affiliate" that had collected referral fees for delivering customers to Best Buy's Web site. At FatWallet.com, shoppers swap details of loss-leading merchandise and rebate strategies. Last October, the site posted Best Buy's secret list of planned Thanksgiving weekend loss leaders, incurring the retailer's ire. Timothy C. Storm, president of Roscoe, Ill.-based FatWallet, said the information may have leaked from someone who had an early look at advertisements scheduled to run the day after Thanksgiving.

In a letter to Mr. Storm, Best Buy explained it was cutting the online link between FatWallet and BestBuy.com because the referrals were unprofitable. The letter said it was terminating all sites that "consistently and historically have put us in a negative business position."

Mr. Storm defends FatWallet.com's posters as savvy shoppers. "Consumers don't set the prices. The merchants have complete control over what their prices and policies are," he says.

Shunning customers can be a delicate business. Two years ago, retailer Filene's Basement was vilified on television and in newspaper columns for asking two Massachusetts customers not to shop at its stores because of what it said were frequent returns and complaints. Earlier this year, Mr. Anderson apologized in writing to students at a Washington, D.C., school after employees at one store barred a group of black students while admitting a group of white students.

Mr. Anderson says the incident in Washington was inappropriate and not a part of any customer culling. He maintains that Best Buy will first try to turn its bad customers into profitable ones by inducing them to buy warranties or more profitable services. "In most cases, customers wouldn't recognize the options we've tried so far," he says.

Store clerks receive hours of training in identifying desirable customers according to their shopping preferences and behavior. High-income men, referred to internally as Barrys, tend to be enthusiasts of action movies and cameras. Suburban moms, called Jills, are busy but usually willing to talk about helping their families. Male technology enthusiasts, nicknamed Buzzes, are early adopters, interested in buying and showing off the latest gadgets.

Staffers use quick interviews to pigeonhole shoppers. A customer who says his family has a regular "movie night," for example, is pegged a prime candidate for home-theater equipment. Shoppers with large families are steered toward larger appliances and time-saving products.

The company hopes to lure the Barrys and Jills by helping them save time with services like a "personal shopper" to help them hunt for unusual items, alert them to sales on preferred items, and coordinate service calls.

Best Buy's decade-old Westminster, Calif., store is one of 100 now using the new approach. It targets upper-income men with an array of pricey home-theater systems, and small-business owners with network servers, which connect office PCs, and technical help unavailable to other customers.

On Tuesdays, when new movie releases hit the shelves, blue-shirted sales clerks prowl the DVD aisles looking for promising candidates. The goal is to steer them into a back room that showcases $12,000 high-definition home-theater systems. Unlike the television sections at most Best Buy stores, the room has easy chairs, a leather couch, and a basket of popcorn to mimic the media rooms popular with home-theater fans.

At stores popular with young Buzzes, Best Buy is setting up videogame areas with leather chairs and game players hooked to mammoth, plasma-screen televisions. The games are conveniently stacked outside the playing area, the glitzy new TVs a short stroll away.

Mr. Anderson says early results indicate that the pilot stores "are clobbering" the conventional stores. Through the quarter ended Aug. 28, sales gains posted by pilot stores were double those of traditional stores. In October, the company began converting another 70 stores.

Best Buy intends to customize the remainder of its stores over the next three years. As it does, it will lose the economies and efficiencies of look-alike stores. With each variation, it could become more difficult to keep the right items in stock, a critical issue in a business where a shortage of a hot-selling big-screen TV can wreak havoc on sales and customer goodwill.

Overhead costs at the pilot stores have run one to two percentage points higher than traditional stores. Sales specialists cost more, as do periodic design changes. Mr. Anderson says the average cost per store should fall as stores share winning ideas for targeting customers.

Write to Gary McWilliams at [email protected] ([email protected])

Corrections & Amplifications:

Best Buy Co. had net income of $705 million in the fiscal year that ended in February 2004 and $570 million in fiscal 2002. This article transposed the net income figures.

look_ma
11-08-2004, 12:39 PM
Yuh, where have you been attgig? I read something like this over 6-8 weeks ago. Best Buy is a smart company when it comes to the bottom line, the dollar. Most companies hate that bargain shoppers that screw over the system, they just dont say anything about it. Best Buy wants to squash wal-mart really badly, and are starting to really make some headway.

psycho-
11-08-2004, 12:43 PM
Haha...like the concept of returning freepiods.com ipods to the store? Would that be considered a shopper that screws over the system?

attgig
11-08-2004, 12:58 PM
Yuh, where have you been attgig? I read something like this over 6-8 weeks ago. Best Buy is a smart company when it comes to the bottom line, the dollar. Most companies hate that bargain shoppers that screw over the system, they just dont say anything about it. Best Buy wants to squash wal-mart really badly, and are starting to really make some headway.
I dunno... but this article is dated today...so either you can see into the future, or WSJ is just slow reporting news.

WhiskeyPapa
11-08-2004, 01:11 PM
Basically, they're saying they don't want educated comsumers.

Now, I can see bellyaching about people returning mechandise they didn't buy at the store, but the rest (actually submitting and following up on rebates, buying lots of loss-leaders, selling the stuff on eBay) are stupid excuses to whine.

If you don't want people to buy your deals, don't sell them.

My son is a shift supervisor at a pizza joint. Each noon they have an all-you-can-eat buffet. The owner says he always loses money on male teens. However, he makes a mint on women. It averages out and he doesn't worry about it. He's not about to try and discourage young men from eating at the buffet.

ialsohaveadream
11-08-2004, 01:26 PM
I think Best Buy does enough to get rid of us by offering horrendous customer service.

LegendKiller
11-08-2004, 01:33 PM
I have to say that I really don't blame them. There are people out there who think they are *entitled* to good deals. They also think that corps like BB are nameless, faceless giants who don't have a soul. Too bad the soul is the workers and their paychecks.

I have seen many posts on deals sites about people buying, returning, and then going for an open box. I have also seen people buy, submit for rebate a copy, and return the item. Essentially they are milking a system and getting a risk-free profit, or just a better deal than they should be

BB doesn't want to eliminate good deals, or deal seekers, they want to cut down on deal abusers.


LK

TofuNinja
11-08-2004, 01:39 PM
I think Best Buy does enough to get rid of us by offering horrendous customer service.
:stupid:

What's wrong with Price Matching.... The Best Buy in Westminster is hit and miss, I have no idea if they will price match a webpage.... but I doubt it. But they have been good about price matching BM store... Ever since SW EPII I have not have an issue with the price matching. That CEO is strange, wouldn't he rather I buy that DVD at Best Buy than another store? Sure he may take a lose, but he gets my money, and I might pick up something else too.... gee


I have to say that I really don't blame them. There are people out there who think they are *entitled* to good deals. They also think that corps like BB are nameless, faceless giants who don't have a soul. Too bad the soul is the workers and their paychecks.

I have seen many posts on deals sites about people buying, returning, and then going for an open box. I have also seen people buy, submit for rebate a copy, and return the item. Essentially they are milking a system and getting a risk-free profit, or just a better deal than they should be

BB doesn't want to eliminate good deals, or deal seekers, they want to cut down on deal abusers.


LK

Well put ;) I only price match

blueindian
11-08-2004, 01:55 PM
Basically, they're saying they don't want educated comsumers.

Now, I can see bellyaching about people returning mechandise they didn't buy at the store, but the rest (actually submitting and following up on rebates, buying lots of loss-leaders, selling the stuff on eBay) are stupid excuses to whine.

nah, that's not what they're saying. they're talking about people who submit the rebate form and then want to return it. people who go out of their way to purchase 10 of the loss leaders when it's clearly marked one per household. people who make such pests of themselves by insisting on PMs to an internet sight when that's clearly against BBs policy.

that's the type of customer they don't want, and i can understand why.

gwilks98
11-08-2004, 02:02 PM
I have to say that I really don't blame them. There are people out there who think they are *entitled* to good deals. They also think that corps like BB are nameless, faceless giants who don't have a soul. Too bad the soul is the workers and their paychecks.

I have seen many posts on deals sites about people buying, returning, and then going for an open box. I have also seen people buy, submit for rebate a copy, and return the item. Essentially they are milking a system and getting a risk-free profit, or just a better deal than they should be

BB doesn't want to eliminate good deals, or deal seekers, they want to cut down on deal abusers.


LK

I really do think that's BS, LK. The whole thing with the rebates started to allow companies to keep thousands upon thousands of dollars for an extra 2 to 3 months while they collect interest. Then they decide to not send the check anyway.

So now they say that they want to crack down on deal abusers. This just means that if I, a legitamate customer have a problem, I have to give my name and address, blood type, urine sample etc just to be rejected for a refund. I already get felt up and manhandled by security when I try to leave with my paid for merchandise. Hasn't this company groped me enough?

They're just as dirty as the deal abusers IMO.

psycho-
11-08-2004, 02:03 PM
nah, that's not what they're saying. they're talking about people who submit the rebate form and then want to return it. people who go out of their way to purchase 10 of the loss leaders when it's clearly marked one per household. people who make such pests of themselves by insisting on PMs to an internet sight when that's clearly against BBs policy.

that's the type of customer they don't want, and i can understand why.


I agree....but with the proliferation of the internet..there will be 'tards like that all over the place.....but it's good that BB is thinking of cracking down on people who "work the system", even when it's against's BB's policies.

_=DeltaForce=_
11-08-2004, 02:14 PM
I only buy at best buy Once a year and thats at ThanksGiving.... Most of the time, I get stuff on ebay or online, where ever its cheap...

tupacboy
11-08-2004, 02:17 PM
lets get him! we know where he works!

look_ma
11-08-2004, 02:24 PM
Haha...like the concept of returning freepiods.com ipods to the store? Would that be considered a shopper that screws over the system?

No not at all.

I just gave that a suggestion, didnt say I would do it.

Anyway merchandise is merchandise is that cituation. They would give him 299.99 credit on the item, they would sell it for 299.99, they just didnt get any margin on the product, but there is very little margin on the product to begin with anyway.

Bestbuy is not supposed to pricematch on line site because they dont have all the overhead that bestbuy does. In the article it says that it is tired of customers going to newegg and coming to bestbuy exspecting that price. Also there is so many @$$hole customers wanting something for free. The other day I was getting work on my car at the install bay there. Another customer complained to management about 2 employees off teh clock but still whereing there BB shirts because they made a homosexual joke to eachother and where just overheard, wasnt even directed to the guy. The guy just wanted free work on his car, now that is being a true A-hole.

_=DeltaForce=_
11-08-2004, 02:25 PM
I thought they tracking using serial numbers and other stuff... So they would charge your Credit card later for cheating..

LegendKiller
11-08-2004, 02:28 PM
I really do think that's BS, LK. The whole thing with the rebates started to allow companies to keep thousands upon thousands of dollars for an extra 2 to 3 months while they collect interest. Then they decide to not send the check anyway.

So now they say that they want to crack down on deal abusers. This just means that if I, a legitamate customer have a problem, I have to give my name and address, blood type, urine sample etc just to be rejected for a refund. I already get felt up and manhandled by security when I try to leave with my paid for merchandise. Hasn't this company groped me enough?

They're just as dirty as the deal abusers IMO.


ROFL, do you have any idea how rebates work?


Lets say I am Linksys and I have product X that I sell. Now, product X sells for $100 and I want to create a sales push for it, so I offer a $20 rebate.

Now, I don't sell product X directly, instead it goes to a distributor or maybe even to BestBuy. Bestbuy then has it sit on its shelves for Y number of days until it finally sells.

Now, up till this point Linksys doesn't get any money from anybody but BestBuy or the Distributor (say Ingram Micro). Additionally, Linksys needs to make a reserve account (Liability) for all of the rebates that are outstanding. This shows up in their financial accounts and are well studied for turn-in rates, success rates, and rebate times.

Anyway, the rebate goes to the clearinghouse. These people handle hundreds of thousands of rebates, which have to be verified using product databases, both BestBuy and Linksys to ensure authenticity. The rebate clearinghouse has to notify Linksys of the outgoing rebate, a check must be cut, and the rebate sent.

Now, Linksys doesn't really gain anything off of your cash, nor does BestBuy. They don't suddenly stick your money in a Money Market account, since they know that the money they got extra for your product is also given to Linksys, while BB keeps their cut.

So, BestBuy also has a liability, depending on how Linksys and BB work the deal (it could be just Linksys with the liability, not sure).

Either way, nobody is making anything extra off of your cash, since it all has to be reserved for.


Rebates are like coupons in reverse. They entice you by the low price, drag you in the store, make you get it, and then send it in. A lot of the time YOu screw up on the rebate (not brining the coupon into the store), other times you forget (forgot the coupon at home), or you even tried to send it in past the postmark date (tried using it past the expiration date).


Its a marketing tool, nothing more, nothing less. They just gamble in the opposite way of coupons.


I used to work on Seagate's rebates when they were making most of the Xbox drives. Seagate would record a sale at $XXX.XX, create a reserve account to make sure their financials backed up the rebates (as if the sale only occured at XX-rebate price). When Microsoft would send in the forms Seagate would reverse the contra account and it'd all be good. This would happen with Ingram and any number of Disti's and OEM's.


Sad what internet rumors create.


LK


I thought they tracking using serial numbers and other stuff... So they would charge your Credit card later for cheating..



It's illegal to make a charge without authorization.


LK

LegendKiller
11-08-2004, 02:35 PM
No not at all.

I just gave that a suggestion, didnt say I would do it.

Anyway merchandise is merchandise is that cituation. They would give him 299.99 credit on the item, they would sell it for 299.99, they just didnt get any margin on the product, but there is very little margin on the product to begin with anyway.

Bestbuy is not supposed to pricematch on line site because they dont have all the overhead that bestbuy does. In the article it says that it is tired of customers going to newegg and coming to bestbuy exspecting that price. Also there is so many @$$hole customers wanting something for free. The other day I was getting work on my car at the install bay there. Another customer complained to management about 2 employees off teh clock but still whereing there BB shirts because they made a homosexual joke to eachother and where just overheard, wasnt even directed to the guy. The guy just wanted free work on his car, now that is being a true A-hole.



Returning a product to BB that they didn't originally buy IS scamming them and DOES hurt them.

Why?


Bestbuy buys the Ipod for $266, incurs fixed costs associated with selling the product, inventory holding costs, wages for support and sales staff, building leases, power, carpet cleaning...blah blah blah.

If you go in and return that $299 item they need to have it go through their system, restock it, and resell it. They PAID you $33 more for the Ipod than they'd pay. This in turn jacks up how much they actually need to get for that product to break even or make a product.


So lets say that the $33 original profit they make, $25 of it is cost of selling the goods. That means that that Ipod has now cost them $299+25 = $324. They also forgoe the, so now you have created a -24 LOSS for bestbuy AND if you include the cost of equity that they need to return to investors (that chunk of profit they need to give people for investing the company) you have actually cost BB $33.

Now, since BB can't eat this, they need to raise prices or eliminate crappy people who do this. Raise prices and you run into Walmart, eliminate crappy customers and you get rid of your profit sinkers.

DaFunkyUnit
11-08-2004, 02:43 PM
snip


wait, so rebates are only for marketing purposes? just like coupons?

then wouldnt it be better for them to just use coupons? and not worry about the effort on tracking rebates and paying for rebate support centers?

blueindian
11-08-2004, 02:53 PM
wait, so rebates are only for marketing purposes? just like coupons?

then wouldnt it be better for them to just use coupons? and not worry about the effort on tracking rebates and paying for rebate support centers?

nope, because a rather large perenctage of folks never send them in.

LegendKiller
11-08-2004, 03:06 PM
nope, because a rather large perenctage of folks never send them in.


Exactly. As I said, coupons in reverse.


LK

Bires
11-08-2004, 04:01 PM
Basically, they're saying they don't want educated comsumers.

Now, I can see bellyaching about people returning mechandise they didn't buy at the store, but the rest (actually submitting and following up on rebates, buying lots of loss-leaders, selling the stuff on eBay) are stupid excuses to whine.

If you don't want people to buy your deals, don't sell them.

Well put. Best Buy gives me the creeps, so I don't shop there anymore.

Last time I asked to use the gift-card-coupon thing to buy a GBA game, the assistant manager (or shift leader) tried every bleeding thing he could do to turn me away ( OVER FIVE BUCKS!!!! ). I don't even look like a kid. I dress pretty well. I can imagine the flack they give kids they think they can bully!

Hmm....I have an idea...time to start a new thread...

gwilks98
11-08-2004, 05:26 PM
ROFL, do you have any idea how rebates work?



Apparently not. Thanks for the info.





Sad what internet rumors create.


This wasn't created by an internet rumor, though I may have accidentally started one. What else is the average man left to think when he pays Best Buy $20 extra bucks only to receive it back months later? Just gimme the damned sale price now and quit making me jump through hoops.


I'm well aware of the reasoning of rebates, saying they work because people forget to send them in or screw up the forms. I just didn't believe it was the only reason for companies to adopt them over coupons.

OC
11-08-2004, 06:16 PM
If they wanted to eliminate "devil" customers, all they'd need to do is reduce the number of good deals. This would do nothing to discourage their "angel" customers - deal hunters would bother other retailers - and they could do it without raising anyone's ire. To say upfront that they want to get rid of bad customers is just bad form.

LegendKiller
11-08-2004, 06:22 PM
If they wanted to eliminate "devil" customers, all they'd need to do is reduce the number of good deals. This would do nothing to discourage their "angel" customers - deal hunters would bother other retailers - and they could do it without raising anyone's ire. To say upfront that they want to get rid of bad customers is just bad form.


Yes, but those good deals also attract angel customers, who also buy more stuff while they are there. The deals are a double edged sword for BB and they want to dull one edge of it. I can't blame them for that.


LK

ufcrusher
11-08-2004, 06:46 PM
What I think LK is failing to recognize is the fact that there are different types of rebates out there and you often encounter more than one when buying at places like BB and circuit. For example, I bought an 80gig WD hard drive at BB for $79.99 plus tax. There was an immediate $10 price break (given by BB) which brought it down to $69.99 and then 2 rebates of $20 each...bringing the drive down to $20. Only 1 of those rebates was from WD...the other was directly from Best Buy.

As others have said, the entire reason for rebates is unlike instant savings/coupons which are automatically discounted, rebates have an extra human component in them. Many of the rebates have intricate rules which are easy to screw up so that the company can reject them. On top of that some rebate warehouses were guaranteeing that only a certain amount of rebates would actually be fulfilled. (There was a dateline NBC show about this and some attorney generals sued the companies) This meant that even if you did everything right they would sometimes arbitrarily try to reject it claiming they never received it or that you failed to send something in properly.

As for your thought that they dont earn any interests on these type of accounts, I find that hard to believe. Even if they were putting it aside for repayment, it would only be financially prudent to put it in an interest bearing account. If they sell a few million products with $20 rebates, even the shortest time in the account would start to add up.

LegendKiller
11-08-2004, 07:03 PM
What I think LK is failing to recognize is the fact that there are different types of rebates out there and you often encounter more than one when buying at places like BB and circuit. For example, I bought an 80gig WD hard drive at BB for $79.99 plus tax. There was an immediate $10 price break (given by BB) which brought it down to $69.99 and then 2 rebates of $20 each...bringing the drive down to $20. Only 1 of those rebates was from WD...the other was directly from Best Buy.

As others have said, the entire reason for rebates is unlike instant savings/coupons which are automatically discounted, rebates have an extra human component in them. Many of the rebates have intricate rules which are easy to screw up so that the company can reject them. On top of that some rebate warehouses were guaranteeing that only a certain amount of rebates would actually be fulfilled. (There was a dateline NBC show about this and some attorney generals sued the companies) This meant that even if you did everything right they would sometimes arbitrarily try to reject it claiming they never received it or that you failed to send something in properly.

As for your thought that they dont earn any interests on these type of accounts, I find that hard to believe. Even if they were putting it aside for repayment, it would only be financially prudent to put it in an interest bearing account. If they sell a few million products with $20 rebates, even the shortest time in the account would start to add up.



Ok, lets get figure in how much BB could possibly make. Even without them using a reserve account


Lets say they sell 200k HDD's at $99 bucks, with $20 of that being an MIR with BB. Now, I doubt that they make 20mm on a weekend of HDD's, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. So, we have 2000 drives sold, 40,000 in outstanding dollars. Lets say they DON'T have to reserve and the cash CAN be used for current marketable securities (I am sure its against FASB regulations, but lets forget them, enron did ;) ).

So, we have $40,000 sitting around that HAS to be made availible within 90 days. This leads us to the commerical paper market, or money market. I know on our deals at work, we are running at about 3% interest per year. Which gives us 30,000 for 3 months simple interest.


Wow, 30k...big whoopdy fekk. Thats what? .0000046875% of BB's revenue. Thats not even what it costs to FINANCE their product and that asset (you'd have to figure that out using the WACC of the company, most likely they'd be losing money).


You guys think this is huge, but its not. It is nothing more than a marketing tool designed to lure people into the stores to buy more stuff. Furthermore, its more fool proof than coupons.


As far as requirements. I send in rebates all of the time. People get rejected because they didn't include everything, nor were they careful about sending it the proper way. It is not the clearing houses fault that they screwed up. Follow the directions, document it, cover your arse, and your OK.


LK

bachviet
11-08-2004, 08:57 PM
I wil never shop at BB again after I had trouble returning a stick of RAM I bought the day before (at the same store). :mad:

I only use its ads for pricematching. :D

look_ma
11-08-2004, 10:06 PM
Returning a product to BB that they didn't originally buy IS scamming them and DOES hurt them.



Hurt them yes, but it would not be scamming them. Just walk up to the counter during the no reciept exchange holidays and say you got it as a gift, and you would like store credit. the VOLA you get store credit.

LegendKiller
11-08-2004, 10:08 PM
Hurt them yes, but it would not be scamming them. Just walk up to the counter during the no reciept exchange holidays and say you got it as a gift, and you would like store credit. the VOLA you get store credit.



That IS scamming them. You are taking something that YOU got for a reduced (or free) price and SELLING it to BB at FULL RETAIL price. Costing them the margin and then forcing them to LOSE money on the proposition.

That sounds like a scam to me. You force an inflated price upon a company while LYING about it and they turn around and lose money. How hard is it to understand?

LK

look_ma
11-09-2004, 03:49 AM
That IS scamming them. You are taking something that YOU got for a reduced (or free) price and SELLING it to BB at FULL RETAIL price. Costing them the margin and then forcing them to LOSE money on the proposition.

That sounds like a scam to me. You force an inflated price upon a company while LYING about it and they turn around and lose money. How hard is it to understand?
LK

I still dont see it as a scam, working the system and being a devil customer maybe. I am telling the CSR, that I got a IPOD as agift and would like to return it at bestbuy, but unfortunatly do not have a reciept.

Bestbuy knows this happens and is willing to eat it. If this was a huge problem they have ways of preventing this but dont. You are givien store credit, not cash. You still are going to come back into the store and buy something. I guess I jsut have a slightly skewed set of morals, and you are super perfect. I guess it is because this is bestbuy, not like I am doing this to a mom and pop shop.

blueindian
11-09-2004, 04:50 AM
I guess I jsut have a slightly skewed set of morals, and you are super perfect. I guess it is because this is bestbuy, not like I am doing this to a mom and pop shop.

i don't think he's saying the he is super perfect, but it really isn't fair to return something that didn't come from the store. in an over-simplifed example which would never happen in the real world let's assume that bestbuy sold 10 ipods and made a profit. if 10 other people return ipods that didn't come from BB then not only does that cancel out their profit but it in fact makes them loose money. how is that fair?

on another note, rebate fulfillment companies do try their best not to fill rebates. while i usually have no problem, i have had 3 cases where i didn't get my rebate. all the times the amount was too small for me to hassel with it (less than $10). one i kust never got, and two were returned to me with all my documentation saying that I'd hadn't met some requirement when, in fact, i had. hah, one of them even said i didn't meet the postmark deadline. . .but they returned my original envelope clearly showing that I had.

LegendKiller
11-09-2004, 06:16 AM
I still dont see it as a scam, working the system and being a devil customer maybe. I am telling the CSR, that I got a IPOD as agift and would like to return it at bestbuy, but unfortunatly do not have a reciept.

Bestbuy knows this happens and is willing to eat it. If this was a huge problem they have ways of preventing this but dont. You are givien store credit, not cash. You still are going to come back into the store and buy something. I guess I jsut have a slightly skewed set of morals, and you are super perfect. I guess it is because this is bestbuy, not like I am doing this to a mom and pop shop.


So, because its a multi-billion dollar company it's ok to screw them? If I am not mistaken, don't people still work there? Don't parents' mutual funds STILL hold BB stock? Don't teachers pension funds STILL hold BB stock?

What about the next person who walks in the store? Don't they have to pay for your screwing BB?

Its called distributive cost my friend. By scamming best buy out of their profits they have to make them up somewhere else, or just lose them. Now, if they make them up, they end up charging EVERYBODY ELSE the money you cost them. Thus, you aren't ripping BB off, you are ripping ME off.

If they don't make up the cost, then they lose profit. That means that they don't meet their earnings (or exceed them) the stock doesn't appreciate as much and your parents can't retire as early as they wanted to, or you are hurting teachers.

Now, one IPod might not make a difference, but when you get this x100million, it gets big.


Thats what I find amusing about some people. They think these corporations are nameless, faceless entities that are only out to screw them. Sorry, when you screw BB, you screw society as a whole.


LK

Jeffbx
11-09-2004, 06:40 AM
This is a HUGE problem in the US today. Everyone wants everything cheaper, better, faster - yet they complain when jobs get outsourced out of the US or when we import goods rather than producing them locally. Guess what folks - you can't have one without the other.

mcs328
11-09-2004, 08:42 AM
I bought a returned LCD that was bought and returned the same day. Luckily I saw that the serial number was removed as proof of purchase and I needed that for the rebate. Looking at the rebate it just needed an original serial number and a COPY of the receipt. So I assumed the guy before me cut out the serial number and sent a copy then returned the monitor back. Then sat at home and waited for his 60 dollar rebate. I got an instant rebate by Microcenter anways but it's people like those that fall in the 'devil' category.

look_ma
11-09-2004, 11:48 AM
Thats what I find amusing about some people. They think these corporations are nameless, faceless entities that are only out to screw them. Sorry, when you screw BB, you screw society as a whole.

LK


Well first off I have not done this, nor probably would, but just presented this as a possiblility. I would only do this to Bestbuy because I do really really dislike them, and I dont play by the rules.

Cantacuzene
11-09-2004, 12:04 PM
This is a HUGE problem in the US today. Everyone wants everything cheaper, better, faster - yet they complain when jobs get outsourced out of the US or when we import goods rather than producing them locally. Guess what folks - you can't have one without the other.

I don't see those two going hand in hand at all. As our productivity goes up, (how many factories are operating at 100% productivity in this country?) prices should come down. We deserve to get things faster and cheaper as time goes on because productivity, unless artificially depressed, will continue to go up.

LegendKiller
11-09-2004, 12:09 PM
Well first off I have not done this, nor probably would, but just presented this as a possiblility. I would only do this to Bestbuy because I do really really dislike them, and I dont play by the rules.


Sigh, you just don't get it. This doesn't HURT bestbuy, it hurts SOCIETY. Your vendetta hurts me, you, canta, our parents, anybody who shops there and anybody who has anything to do with the company.

LK

Jeffbx
11-10-2004, 05:25 AM
I don't see those two going hand in hand at all. As our productivity goes up, (how many factories are operating at 100% productivity in this country?) prices should come down. We deserve to get things faster and cheaper as time goes on because productivity, unless artificially depressed, will continue to go up.

Sure, looks good on paper. But many companies, esp. manufacturing, are being forced to show *immediate* cost reductions, & this is a big part of the problem. For example:

Big auto company's costs are rising - healthcare increases, raw material increases, poor management, etc. all lead to rising costs. They can't pass those on to the consumer because the market is so tight. As a matter of fact, they're doing the opposite & offering all kinds of rebates & incentives to get cars on the road. Where do they make up the difference? Hit the suppliers.

It's a common practice for a big auto company to expect yearly price cuts from their suppliers. This is in an effort to 'help' them to become leaner & more efficient. However, in today's market, the cost of steel has been climbing steadily. Even if a mfr is improving their processes & implementing lean manufacturing practices, their costs are still going to rise because of the costs of the raw material is rising. They are faced with a dilemma - they need to raise their prices, their customer is expecting them to cut prices. If they lose this contract, the company can go under (many small auto suppliers have only ONE customer, or derive 75% or more of their revenue from one customer - very bad business model).

What can they do? Anything possible to keep the company in business. They begin outsourcing everything they can, from office workers to the actual manufacturing, if possible. In this instance (and many, many others) outsourcing is the only way to keep the company open. This is a pretty specific example, but it can be applied to any manufacturing company, and many service companies as well.

How many of us are willing to buy a more expensive American car to keep people in the US working? Think about that for a while. I know we all know the answer.