for you chemistry nuts out there

[kimchicowboy]

hey, if lightning strikes the ocean and i'm in the ocean, am i gonna get electrocuted? probably not, right? (sorry. i don't know crap about science. i amazingly passed my first college chem class while getting 113/300 on the final. i straight up failed the 2nd class. hahaha)

[welfareloser]

depends on how close you are to the lightning strike.

in short, if there's a lightning storm, get out of the ocean.

[ShawnLee]

:stupid:Exactly. Electricity only goes through water when there's salt in it. Oh wait, the ocean's full of it. Before anyone asks it, if you were in distilled water and lightning struck that, you'd still get hit because there is enough salt on your skin to transmit the electricity. Yay for ions!

[InfiniteNothing]

lighning passes through the path of least resistance (or it tries to). If the water is more conductive than you (and it is) then it will go through an area of about 5meters*5meters and down. Basically, you don't want to be there.

If it was pure water you'd be soooo screwed. It'd nail you like a punk.

[Yossarian]

you don't wanna be within a range of about 100 yards, just to be safe. as a matter of fact, just don't go swimmnig

[bachviet]

you don't wanna be within a range of about 100 yards, just to be safe. as a matter of fact, just don't go swimmnig
Who in the right mind goes swimming during a lightning storm?

[gear02]

Who in the right mind goes swimming during a lightning storm?

Someone who fails a chemistry exam? :D

[BrewMaster]

Volume resistivity is the key. There is a volume of water, even with ions, that is too large for the electricity to go through. Maybe its's 5m x 5m x 5m. I don't know. But I don't want to find out. Basically, water does not conduct infinitely, just like copper wire does not conduct infintely. There is "loss" no matter what. Just make sure you're far enough away from the lightning strike so there is enough "loss" to save your ass.

And just to be clear, water is polar and has lots of ions in it, so even the "purest" water can conduct electricty very well. The ions in the ocean may aide conductivity, but they are not necessary for water to conduct electricity. It has nothing to do with the ions on your skin.

I never failed a chemistry or materials science test.

[Yossarian]

Who in the right mind goes swimming during a lightning storm?
who in the right mind lives in california? or stays in florida during the summer?

[bachviet]

who in the right mind lives in california? or stays in florida during the summer?
So you are telling me that all the CA residents are NUTS???

[Yossarian]

not nuts, ****in psycho

[bachviet]

not nuts, ****in psycho
:laugh:

I guess I'm one of those psycho... :bandit:

[brainsmile]

just float around the ocean covered in rubber

[CornMonkey]

who in the right mind lives in california? or stays in florida during the summer?
what's wrong w/ cali? earthquakes are fun..!

[kimchicowboy]

Who in the right mind goes swimming during a lightning storm?
well, i shelled out quite a bit of money to go on a scuba diving trip to the philippines. i'm leaving tomorrow. and so far, the forecasts show little pictures of clouds with lightning bolts. :P hahaha.

[hapoo]

And just to be clear, water is polar and has lots of ions in it, so even the "purest" water can conduct electricty very well.

Interesting you mention that. About 6 years ago i took a trip to a power plant and they mentioned that they had to keep the area clean, and that they did it by blasting water at the place. Well everyone was kinda confused since they assumed that the high voltage electricity would just go through the water and short to ground. They explained that the water is purified and de-ionized to the point were it can't conduct well enough to pass any current.

[Maarchk]

who in the right mind lives in california? or stays in florida during the summer?


36 million people. So one out of every 8 people... Darn lot of crazies...
But between hollywood and san francisco, its explainable...

[InfiniteNothing]

They explained that the water is purified and de-ionized to the point were it can't conduct well enough to pass any current.
Affirmative:
This experiment shows that DI water won't conduct well
http://intro.chem.okstate.edu/1314F97/Chapter4/Wed101971.html

[Houdini]

Volume resistivity is the key. There is a volume of water, even with ions, that is too large for the electricity to go through. Maybe its's 5m x 5m x 5m. I don't know. But I don't want to find out. Basically, water does not conduct infinitely, just like copper wire does not conduct infintely. There is "loss" no matter what. Just make sure you're far enough away from the lightning strike so there is enough "loss" to save your ass.

And just to be clear, water is polar and has lots of ions in it, so even the "purest" water can conduct electricty very well. The ions in the ocean may aide conductivity, but they are not necessary for water to conduct electricity. It has nothing to do with the ions on your skin.

I never failed a chemistry or materials science test.

Actually, ShawnLee is correct. While it's true that water is polar, "pure water," usually meaning deionized water, or water that has no cations or anions (salt), is actually a very good insulator. Water's inherent polarity doesn't allow for free electron flow. It is the hydrogen bond that gives water its properties. If you were to drop a hair dryer into a clean (no salt) bathtub filled with deionized water, it would be the salt on your skin that would cause the water to conduct enough electricity to zap you.

[Yossarian]

the problem is taht stuff reacts well and often with water, so unless sealed in a glass container or some other substance it won't react with, over time it will become a conductor

[BrewMaster]

Before anyone asks it, if you were in distilled water and lightning struck that, you'd still get hit because there is enough salt on your skin to transmit the electricity. Yay for ions!


Actually, ShawnLee is correct. While it's true that water is polar, "pure water," usually meaning deionized water, or water that has no cations or anions (salt), is actually a very good insulator. Water's inherent polarity doesn't allow for free electron flow. It is the hydrogen bond that gives water its properties. If you were to drop a hair dryer into a clean (no salt) bathtub filled with deionized water, it would be the salt on your skin that would cause the water to conduct enough electricity to zap you.

ShawnLee said distilled water. That is not the same as deionized water. Distilled water can still has ions in it.

And just so we're clear, water is a bunch of dissociated ions. It does not sit around as bonded H20, it is more like H3O+ and OH- in the same cup. Remember your acid/base/buffer reactions? If water did not self ionize, you wouldn't have much wet chemistry.



Affirmative:
This experiment shows that DI water won't conduct well
http://intro.chem.okstate.edu/1314F97/Chapter4/Wed101971.html

A light bulb is hardly proof of poor conductivity. They should use a quality meter, not a light bulb. That would show that the water actually dows conduct.

My point is that even in a hypothetical swimming pool of deionized water, if the water gets hit by lightning, you're gonna feel it. And that's really all that matters in this thread.

[Houdini]

ShawnLee said distilled water. That is not the same as deionized water. Distilled water can still has ions in it.

And just so we're clear, water is a bunch of dissociated ions. It does not sit around as bonded H20, it is more like H3O+ and OH- in the same cup. Remember your acid/base/buffer reactions? If water did not self ionize, you wouldn't have much wet chemistry.


A light bulb is hardly proof of poor conductivity. They should use a quality meter, not a light bulb. That would show that the water actually dows conduct.

My point is that even in a hypothetical swimming pool of deionized water, if the water gets hit by lightning, you're gonna feel it. And that's really all that matters in this thread.

Hey, Brew,
You said "the "purest" water can conduct electricity very well." ShawnLee used the term distilled instead of DI to suggest water without free ions, and brought up the triva about being safe except for your skin. He wasn't referring to ions in the ocean, under which conditions all bets are off. While there are partial charges on different ends of the H20 molecule, electrons do not move freely. DI water is a poor conductor.

Houdini

Btw...water is not a bunch of dissociated ions, though I understand where you're coming from with the acid/base/buffer thinking. It's mostly H20. It dissociates in the presence of proton donors/acceptors, but he water molecule is actually pretty stable as H20.

[ramazank2]

If all electrolytes (Salts) are removed, will its conductivity become zero? No. Why? Because an infinitesimal part of the molecules of water--only about one in 500 million--is ionized as hydrogen ions (H3O+) and hydroxide ions (OH-). Theoretically, at this point, the conductivity becomes 0.0548 µS/cm at 25 °C.

[InfiniteNothing]

If all electrolytes (Salts) are removed, will its conductivity become zero? No. Why? Because an infinitesimal part of the molecules of water--only about one in 500 million--is ionized as hydrogen ions (H3O+) and hydroxide ions (OH-). Theoretically, at this point, the conductivity becomes 0.0548 µS/cm at 25 °C.

Thanks for the info. Sounds like a poor conductor to me.

[Houdini]

If all electrolytes (Salts) are removed, will its conductivity become zero? No. Why? Because an infinitesimal part of the molecules of water--only about one in 500 million--is ionized as hydrogen ions (H3O+) and hydroxide ions (OH-). Theoretically, at this point, the conductivity becomes 0.0548 µS/cm at 25 °C.

That's correct. I never said its conductivity was zero, only that it is a poor conductor. Thanks for looking up the figures!

[InfiniteNothing]

A light bulb is hardly proof of poor conductivity. They should use a quality meter, not a light bulb. That would show that the water actually dows conduct.

My point is that even in a hypothetical swimming pool of deionized water, if the water gets hit by lightning, you're gonna feel it. And that's really all that matters in this thread.

No one said that you would'nt feel it. I said earlier, it's going to be even worse in a pool full of DI water since lightning is going to prefer you to the water.

[Bires]

So...

I haven't been posting in this, but I have been reading it. I guess I'm the only one that has actually done this, PERSONALLY!

so, I do the DI water/salt water demo/test with a 60W about ten times each school year (easy and fun). Last year, I wanted to test just what it would feel like.

I got the best DI I could (btw: you CAN nearly completely deionize water (far,far below 1x10-14 moles of ions/L <--water's autoionization constant at standard conditions) The problem is, it doesn't stay deionized for very long, since it's rate of autoionization is very high)

Anyway, this stuff was not THAT stuff...it was just plain old, DI water. So, I put my probes (60W out of 110VAC) in the water (the light of course, didn't turn on) and then I put my forefinger in the beaker...and I DID FEEL IT. Boy...it was a real zinger! Not like car battery shock, kinda a duller shock, like when you accidentally touch the inside of a medium-sized Christmas light socket.

Just sharing. :)

[Houdini]

Hah! I've performed/demonstrated that experiment as well several years ago, but I've never stuck my finger in there. Now we know for sure!

[sachin tendulkar]

this technically isnt chemistry...its physics. They teach this stuff in chem though.

[ShawnLee]

Woohoo! I skip out on this thread for a while, and I have a Doc fervently backing me up! Then the science teacher comes in and semi-validates me! Whoo-woot!

[Houdini]

Woohoo! I skip out on this thread for a while, and I have a Doc fervently backing me up! Then the science teacher comes in and semi-validates me! Whoo-woot!

Heh..before I became the doc, was a lab monkey, and enjoyed much of it. I just don't use that degree very often, but it's nice to remember a prior specialty.