Peace

[nickel]

Am I the only one to notice the amount of name calling
and personal attacking on this site is at an all time high?
I truly think there needs to be some changes around here.

For one thing if someone disagrees with you it DOES NOT give you the
right to call them names, question whether they can read or not,
call them passive-agressive or anything else demeaning. I often wonder if
if these attacks would occurr if the people involved were discussing the same
matters face to face. I think, not.

I am not saying I am 100% not guilty of getting caught up in the it,
but I also think there are others who like to stir the pot much more.

Bottom line is: if someone DOES NOT agree with your opinion you have
NO RIGHT to attack them. NO RIGHT! Civil debating can be enlighten-
ing, but I know when someone puts me down I forget the debate
and go on the defensive.

I propose that everyone try harder in the New Year to get along.
Try not to be the one to set the tone of rudeness and disrespect.
Try not to be condescending. We are different people,
from different parts of the country, and different parts of the world.
We are going to see things differently.
That doesn't mean one person is wrong and the other person is right and to
ridicule the other person to get your point across.
It's one thing to stand up and state your opinion for what
you believe in, and then totally another thing to accuse someone of being
stupid for not agreeing with you.

This community should be fun, informative, and full of advice from
wonderfully intelligent people that you would never cross paths with
in real life, but because of the internet you can tap into their wisdom
and wit.
Canta comes to mind. I think he could add so much to
our knowledge banks. The facts he knows off the top of his head truly
amaze me sometimes, but then he also likes to smack people down, and
that just ruins it all for me.

Well, I have said my piece. I just hope we see more peace here in 2005.

[Jenny]

I agree completely. It's bound to happen some. But if we all put forth a little bit of effort, I think it would go a long ways. :)

[OC]

There are too many black-and-white thinkers here. These same people are the ones who latch onto one single element of a post or discussion and not only refuse to let it go, but also refuse to acklowedge that anything else was being said. This instantly prevents them from being able to meaningfully add to the topic being discussed, which only serves to frustrate others.

[johnnymk]

Admit it. We all have our own individual value system and our agendas(agendae?) which we desire to defend.

Very few people are capable of examining issues and seeing the many sides of them.

That's the reason you often see the terms "bigoted", "narrow minded", "politically incorrect or correct" and the latest "black and white" to subtly or deliberately reinforce posters opinions in these debates.

But name calling and putdowns should be kept to the absolute minimum. However, I will sometimes resort to it if they start it.

[faither]

There are too many black-and-white thinkers here.


There you go playing the race card!!!! Let's keep the racial stuff out of this, okay? :P

[RoniMan]

can't we all just get along? :P

one of the reasons i really enjoy this site is b/c of the amount of civility almost everyone here shows. when i go to other forums, er...what i mean is ...FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD, it absolutely discourages and disgusts me from posting when i read the amount of name calling and lack of respect others have.

while some of us may not be as knowledgeable in certain aspects of hot topics of discussion (ie. politics), it doesn't mean that we don't want to participate, or learn. EVERYONE will always have something to contribute, it's just that we may not feel as eloquent as we'd like to be. i'd like to see a more welcoming attitude to those ppl so we may continue our tradition of being a wonderful community. and if this is too warm and fuzzy for your taste...you can suck...er...i mean, you're entitled to your opinion. ;)

but seriously, tis the season to be jolly. and i wish everyone a very HAPPY and safe holidays!

[donnar]

There are alot of times I don't post because I don't want to be attacked by someone, when I am only trying to state my opinion

[Hypnotist]

I've observed this behavior here only to a limited degree... and I haven't been here long enough to really speak to the subject, but I'd like to chime in briefly anyway.

In a HEALTHY debate, positions should be presented and reinforced with factual data. And Yes, "opinions are like __, _____", but they MUST be respected! Resorting to vicious sarcasm, cynicism or outright personal attack, in any form, clearly illustrates to everyone, a lack of knowledge and or the intelligence available to further support the position. The first to go "there" is instantly the loser. Spewing noxious thought is not cute, not funny and totally not cool... it's a shrill announcement to the community that you are severely lacking in self-control and maturity. It's also an assault on the rest of the thread participants who would rather not have to hold their noses while stepping around your mental diarrhea. So, before you think you just MUST squat to that level, ask yourself... DO I YOU REALLY WANT TO ADVERTISE A WEAK MIND... then choose an elevated alternative...................... I M H O.

PEACE NICKEL...

PEACE TO EVERYONE...

[cheapie]

i agree nickel. i will endeavor to be nicer as well.

i'm someone that apparently believes in a more, ummmm, firm definition of right and wrong than many here, but that doesn't make me rude, nasty, or an idiot.

[bachviet]

I just put them on ignore and problems solved. :D

[BigJon]

I love you...


I love you all....

...except for you...yes...you.

[nickel]

I love you...


I love you all....

...except for you...yes...you.
:cheers: ?

alcohol makes the heart grow fonder :P

[BigJon]

Alcohol? Where?

[nickel]

Alcohol? Where?
ummm.... i dunno.... move on....
nothing to see here :P

[YanksFanRy]

First, I would like to thank Nickel for the starting post. Well said, very eloquent. And quite necessary.

There's nothing wrong with differing opinions, but there simply is no right or wrong in most of our topics. Take what other people have to say to heart, if you disagree, OH WELL! And if you feel you want to explain that, do so by giving reasons and explanations, not simply "Nope. You idiot, you're wrong!". Instead, try showing why you think your way is better. Debates and conversations are fun and stimulating, but instead of put-downs calmly explain your position. Or sometimes, don't! Not posting certainly never caused problems! But that, of course, is a last resort...

[InfiniteNothing]

Boo to superniceness! This world was not made out of candy and spice. I'll agree that there is some uncalled for meaness on the boards but sometimes people act dumb. This isn't a preschool where we have to "respect eachother's feelings" We are adults and if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Boo to superniceness and the "everyone should feel good about ourselves" world.

[DarkFury]

I agree with this thought...

BTW.. there were posts before (which probably got lost in the Al Queda attack on G|A awhile ago) that I made a long time ago which reflected the same idea...

"Live and let live"... respect everyone and if they disagree, then agree to disagree and leave it at that. No point in getting hostile and derogatory (unless it is truly in jest)

Either way... everyone needs to be kinder to their fellow man (or woman). Leave the name callin' to the kids. :D

[zenbooty]

Politeness for politeness's sake is for strangers and fakers. Recent spats are just a symptom of the age of this forum and duration of some of its posters. Familiarity breeds contempt. Not much to be done about it :shrug:

[nickel]

Politeness for politeness's sake is for strangers and fakers. Recent spats are just a symptom of the age of this forum and duration of some of its posters. Familiarity breeds contempt. Not much to be done about it :shrug:
i disagree. there is no need to belittle someone with name calling no matter how "familiar" you are with them. whoever stated familiarity breeds contempt must have not had many good friends.

and i also disagree with InfiniteNothing.

Boo to superniceness! This world was not made out of candy and spice. I'll agree that there is some uncalled for meaness on the boards but sometimes people act dumb. This isn't a preschool where we have to "respect eachother's feelings" We are adults and if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Boo to superniceness and the "everyone should feel good about ourselves" world.
this thread is not about superniceness. it is about not calling someone stupid because they don't agree with you. that is not preschool-ish, that sir is respect.

[InfiniteNothing]

this thread is not about superniceness. it is about not calling someone stupid because they don't agree with you. that is not preschool-ish, that sir is respect.

Okay, I can agree to those terms but I believe that "calling someones stupid because they don't agree with you" is somewhat rare. Alot of times people say dumb things or give fallacious arguments and I see little wrong with calling them out on it.

[nickel]

Okay, I can agree to those terms but I believe that "calling someones stupid because they don't agree with you" is somewhat rare. Alot of times people say dumb things or give fallacious arguments and I see little wrong with calling them out on it.
i don't know what board you are on because i don't see a lot of dumb things or false things being posted here. i see differences of opinion occasionally but that is neither dumb nor false.

[Yossarian]

ehhh, both of you are right here nickel...there are always stupid or false comments, everyone makes them. yes, it isn't necessarily right, but sometimes one just hasta step back and look at both sides of an argument, see what the other side does, all that jazz

[InfiniteNothing]

i don't know what board you are on because i don't see a lot of dumb things or false things being posted here. i see differences of opinion occasionally but that is neither dumb nor false.

It's hard to give examples without singling out people.

In terms of dumb things to say, it's mostly bigoted comments and perhaps people who present opinion as fact when they are obviously wrong (eg the laughably wrong).

Fallacious arguments: Countless slippery slopes, straw men, oversimplifications (ie assume no middle ground), ad hominem arguments, and begging the questions.

[nickel]

It's hard to give examples without singling out people.

In terms of dumb things to say, it's mostly bigoted comments and perhaps people who present opinion as fact when they are obviously wrong (eg the laughably wrong).

Fallacious arguments: Countless slippery slopes, straw men, oversimplifications (ie assume no middle ground), ad hominem arguments, and begging the questions.
as long as you practice what you preach perhaps you won't get these responses. just a thought.

[welfareloser]

then there are the people who call even the slightest disagreement with their own opinion at all a "personal attack," thus compeltely removing any chance of a civil discussion and tuirning it into a flamewar... then there are the people who are "just expressing their opinions" that the other person's belief is stupid/wrong and act surprised that the response might be an emphatic disagreement...

point being, everyone has their reasons, and everybody thinks they're just responding to someone else who was nasty first :shrug: nobody believes that he or she is a butthead. as far as i can tell, the more you feel the need to tell others they are buttheads, the more likely it is you're the biggest butthead around :shrug:

for example, some might think that starting a thread like this, devoting a large section of it to making sure that everyone else knows that you are by far one of the least of the offenders, is pretty damned offensive. just a thought... this after telling lpm he was up on a high horse ... and telling IN to practice what he preaches. :rolleyes:

i know. how terrible to poop on a thread called "peace." too bad it was a poorly masked self-righteous lecture about what everybody else needs to be doing. sorry. i'm having trouble applauding the sentiment. had you just said "we're all bad and i for one will try to be better," cool. but to throw out "others like to stir the pot so much more than me..." what does that add to an otherwise decent suggestion? what is this other than picking a fight? what is it other than doing exactly what you just bitched at everyone else not to do? slef-congratulatory nonsense that hinges upon a negative comparison with others... color me disgusted.

but i'm with cheapie et al... we're better than most boards, but we can be better still. i will work harder to bite my tongue bloody :P

[nickel]

to set the record straight i did no where claim i was "by far one of the least of the offenders."

to quote myself: "I am not saying I am 100% not guilty of getting caught up in the it."

please keep the peace.

[welfareloser]

to quote yourself...



I am not saying I am 100% not guilty of getting caught up in the it,
but I also think there are others who like to stir the pot much more.


note the dependent clause.

take it as constructive criticism. this is the stuff that pisses people off. this is the stuff you're asking others not to do.

[nickel]

to quote yourself...



note the dependent clause.

take it as constructive criticism. this is the stuff that pisses people off. this is the stuff you're asking others not to do.
i started this thread with a sincere heart whether you want to believe it or not. i worded it to apply to everyone, myself included. i don't claim i am perfect or that i don't have things to work on.

please don't turn this into anything more than it is.

[welfareloser]

okay. just lettin you know how that might be perceived. smiles all around. :)

[eSDee]

i started this thread with a sincere heart whether you want to believe it or not. i worded it to apply to everyone, myself included. i don't claim i am perfect or that i don't have things to work on.

I think that by you admitting that you are guilty is a good start.

I'm in.

[nickel]

I think that by you admitting that you are guilty is a good start.

I'm in.
good. :)

[Houdini]

Politeness for politeness's sake is for strangers and fakers. Recent spats are just a symptom of the age of this forum and duration of some of its posters. Familiarity breeds contempt. Not much to be done about it :shrug:

What's wrong with asking for an increased degree of civility? I've been called names and been insulted several times on this forum for my beliefs, and more than once I've considered just leaving, as it's not worth my time to debate or discuss anything with people who result to name calling, etc. I've stayed out of many discussions for the same reasons.

Strangers and fakers? For the most part, we encounter each other on an internet forum. How many hostile words would have been exchanged if we all were meeting daily in person? I doubt they would escalate to the degree they do now as we hide behind this electronic pseudo-veil. In fact, many who participate in these stupid flame wars would probably get along great in real life. I'm always impressed at how intelligent and insightful the people on this forum tend to be. We've had some damn good discussions, peppered with distracting and annoying flame wars.

I've with nickel on this one. We all need to try to be more polite and respectful. :)

[kimchicowboy]

yeah. let's all end our posts with these :) hehehe.

[cheapie]

or lol. it'll be a jenny-fest. lol.

;)

[Jcranmer]

There are alot of times I don't post because I don't want to be attacked by someone, when I am only trying to state my opinion:stupid: I am in complete agreement with this. There have been many many more times I have wanted to express an opinion on a topic around here, but always have to think twice about it and usually just end up keeping quite.

There have always been a handful of people around here that are quick to jump on anyone's opinion if it differs from theirs. (I am not naming any names here)

What's worse is it DOES seem to be getting worse recently. Well hopefully the holiday season will put everyone in a better mood. (myself included):)

[InfiniteNothing]

What's wrong with asking for an increased degree of civility? I've been called names and been insulted several times on this forum for my beliefs, and more than once I've considered just leaving, as it's not worth my time to debate or discuss anything with people who result to name calling, etc. I've stayed out of many discussions for the same reasons.

Strangers and fakers? For the most part, we encounter each other on an internet forum. How many hostile words would have been exchanged if we all were meeting daily in person? I doubt they would escalate to the degree they do now as we hide behind this electronic pseudo-veil. In fact, many who participate in these stupid flame wars would probably get along great in real life. I'm always impressed at how intelligent and insightful the people on this forum tend to be. We've had some damn good discussions, peppered with distracting and annoying flame wars.

I've with nickel on this one. We all need to try to be more polite and respectful. :)

You should realize though that when we do meet in person we leave all the stupid crap at the door. I see the forums a bit like a football match where we might attack eachother for sport but in the end it all goes away over a couple beers.


:stupid: I am in complete agreement with this. There have been many many more times I have wanted to express an opinion on a topic around here, but always have to think twice about it and usually just end up keeping quite.

There have always been a handful of people around here that are quick to jump on anyone's opinion if it differs from theirs. (I am not naming any names here)

What's worse is it DOES seem to be getting worse recently. Well hopefully the holiday season will put everyone in a better mood. (myself included):)

Here's the problem with that logic. It assumes opinions are inherently inoffensive. Often, opinions are offensive and the opinioner is the one being rude (and may not know it). After all, name calling is just a matter of opinion too isn't it?

[welfareloser]

okay. mulled it over... here's why this thread truly rubbed me the wrong way: it is a pretty nasty lecture directed at people who are not engaging in the behavior they are being accused of.

nobody immediately yells "you're stupid." nobody! none of the regulars who are reading this thread do that. a few people in the past have... and without fail, EVERYBODY has jumped their butts and given them a bipartisan cyber-towel-party.... and run them off for good. we don't do it, and we don't like it when others do it. and when i say we, i truly mean all of us.

this thread is useless without naming names. i'm going to :eek: :P

most of the "you need to learn to read" and "you are being passive-aggressive" stuff comes only after the person who said it genuinely sees no other alternative. everyone here, from zen, to cheapie to jel (yes, even jel) to canta (yes... even canta) makes a genuine attempt at civil debate at first. then someone disagrees... and it's maybe a bit forceful or sarcastic. so they disagree back, and use the same sarcasm in return.

here are some concrete examples. (DISCLAIMER: this is neither a comprehensive list, nor an accurate representation of who the worst problem-starters are... tehse are simply the ones that i encounter with the most frequency. and i haven't said anything about myself because i'm terrible at self-analysis... i know that yapping about others is opening myself up to scrutiny from everyone else, and i accept that... all constructive criticism welcome with an open mind :P )

canta... when he wants to point out a problem with someone else's logic, he will often use an allegory. lame generic example: conservative: "i like bush." canta: "so you're saying you like dead brown-skinned babies?" conservative: "f*** you!" now, it is a technique... one that we all use, i might add, before anyone jumps canta's butt for it. canta uses it more often and more effectively, but we all do it. it's a quick and effective way to point out a problem. he's not actually implying that anyone would actually say of themselves "i like dead brown babies." (though that's how it often gets taken.) it's a succinct way of pointing out that some very bad things are part and parcel of the good things that the other side is focussed on.

hmm. as i write this, i think it is this form of arguing that causes 90% of the understandings that lead to flame wars here. we should all make an effort to use it less (i can't say never, because sometimes it really is the only way to make a point effectively) and, when it is used against us, to not take it personally, but to simply shoot down that point (if possible) or accept that it is an acceptable negative (if that is the case) rather than deny that the problem exists (which is usually about two steps before the flaming starts.)

now, nickel... you've just illustrated why i call you passive-aggressive. you used two comments directly from my mouth recently as examples of what we DO NOT HAVE the right to do. of course you're not naming names, and will likely deny that you had me in mind when you wrote those, as that is what you have consistently done in the past. honestly, my only choices are a) you are catty, underhanded, supremely impressed with your clandestine cleverness, and smugly passive-aggressive, or b) a nice girl who is simply utterly socially retarded, as that is what you would have to be to do this so often and truly have no clue that your words could possibly grate someone's nerves. i can't tell you what your intent is when you do it... only you know that. if you are going to claim that your intent is not to throw turds and duck, i will try to believe you. it is difficult, as you seem to have a knack for it, and sarcasm followed by "whaaaaaa? i didn't mean it THAAAAAT way!" is patently infuriating. the other problem you seem to have is that if anyone disagrees with you, no matter how mildly, you accuse them of a personal attack. i'm assuming you don't want links (but i was digging through old threads recently, and stumbled onto a lot of examples of it.) trust me, accusing someone of being nasty is taken as nasty. if your intent is, as you claim, not to be nasty, again, take this as constructive... "how not to piss people off accidentally."

cheapie and zen... i really can't fault either one of them. they genuinely dislike each other for reasons that have blossomed over time. and i don't think anyone should be telling them what they do or do not have the right to say, as, again, neither one of them is blatantly overreacting or out of line... people who respond with an immediate "stfu stupid" get gang-raped by the rest of us and then banned, without fail. i'd say leave them alone... it came to a head recently and will die down on its own, as they are both reasonably intelligent people and don't need us in the peanut gallery telling them to play nice... if i was either one of them, i'd be infuriated at someone telling em to be nice to the other, as the other clearly doesn't deserve it.

and finally... if someone is going to read a bunch of stuff you said and ignore all the important points, sometimes "learn to read" is truly the only appropriate response. i know i only whipped it out on obby after about 4 attempts to explain something, all of which got ignored. she's not the on;y person who does it, just the one who, obviously, jumps to mind first right now. i see people on both sides doing it (and only when they truly feel they have no choice but to throw their hands up... it is truly a last resort, as every person here would rather explain themselves and be understood than say "nevermind.") and again, i think it only gets used when the other person is truly being pig-headed, and yelling at the first person to say something definitively unkind simply rewards the preson who goaded them into it in the first place by being sneaky or otherwise blatantly unfair... hardly fair, imho. again, i think everyone here does a good job of using it as a last resort, so singling out the first person to use the not-so-nice word is not at all representative of what actually happened in the debate... in fact, the first person to scream "personal attack! personal attack! how COULD you?!?!?" is usually smugly gloating over how cleverly they goaded the person into doing it.

i think it is a measure of our civility that psycho could start a thread asking who's the biggest tard here, name 12 names, and no flame war resulted. at all. it was an INVITATION to a flame war, and it didn't happen. i find that truly cremarkable and commendable... bravo to all of us, let's keep up the good work.

in short, we all ought to do two things... first, recognize that a particular debate technique - i don't know if it has an official name of not, but let's call it a "BUSH = DEAD BABIES allegory" - is a way of making a dramatic point, and should not be taken personally (and conversely, not use it if we can help it, because the other person is going to take it personally.) let's all make an effort, before we respond, to say to ourselves "okay... what made him say that?" and let's all make an effort, before we write, to say "okay... how is (s)he going to take that?" it never hurts to have a disclaimer (don't take this the wrong way; i'm saying it because...) or to simply ask what the other person meant (did you really mean XYZ? because it sounds like you're saying ABC, which isn't true...) or whatever.

point being, written words are a tough form of communication. 90% of communication is nonverbal... tone of voice, pitch, body, language, etc. sarcasm, anger, ridicule can be seen where it is not intended, or more frequently, seem more emphatic than was intended.

wordy? oh, yeah. it's the only way i can ensure that i am being absolutely clear in this format. my apologies and condolences to everyone who read the entire thing :P

[TERRIBLETOM]

I see some things never change.

[cheapie]

sweet. i'm in the company of zen, canta, and jel. **** me.

[LPMiller]

Not without getting me drunk first.

[tupacboy]

its been getting better as of late... oh wait... hmm.. just by chance... p3rsian no longer posts... :)

[Airencracken]

Aw shut up.



:hihi:

I'm such a jerk. :P

[oblongmelon]

Rant....

and finally... if someone is going to read a bunch of stuff you said and ignore all the important points, sometimes "learn to read" is truly the only appropriate response. i know i only whipped it out on obby after about 4 attempts to explain something, all of which got ignored. she's not the on;y person who does it, just the one who, obviously, jumps to mind first right now. i see people on both sides doing it (and only when they truly feel they have no choice but to throw their hands up... it is truly a last resort, as every person here would rather explain themselves and be understood than say "nevermind.") and again, i think it only gets used when the other person is truly being pig-headed, and yelling at the first person to say something definitively unkind simply rewards the preson who goaded them into it in the first place by being sneaky or otherwise blatantly unfair... hardly fair, imho. again, i think everyone here does a good job of using it as a last resort, so singling out the first person to use the not-so-nice word is not at all representative of what actually happened in the debate... in fact, the first person to scream "personal attack! personal attack! how COULD you?!?!?" is usually smugly gloating over how cleverly they goaded the person into doing it.

:PI stayed out of this thread for a reason, BECAUSE IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT SOMEONE WAS GOING TO START A HUGE FLAME..-but since you brought me into it-this is what I have to say...first and formost-I applaud Nickel for taking a shot at making EVERYONE realize that bickering is nothing but bullsh*t...I'm a guilty party as well as everyone else around here..anyone who says they're not-with perhaps the exception of Jenny (because she is too busy LOL'ing all over the place ;) )...is a liar. For you to crap on this thread is totally out of line, inappropriate, and low-even for you. And to be perfectly honest-I expect your lefty crones to jump all over my ass for even responding to this-you accused me of "not being able to read" blah blah blah and all your other rants-which to me means a whole lot of nothing-simply because this is the INTERNET. Not real life. Get it? YOU are one of the worst offenders of sh*tslinging..you're quite good at stirring the pot and sitting back to watch it boil over and yet YOU are all in an uproar because someone else on here is actually suggesting that perhaps, since none of who have been here a while actually plan on ditching out on G|A try to get along and keep some INTERNET sanity in our midst. I'm sure if the suggestion came from your melodramatic little world OOOO it would have been SPECTACULAR!!! and your little band of merry admirers would have been wetting themselves with excitement over your deep insight into the makings of an ideal INTERNET world. I myself have had go arounds with Nickel in the past and guess what, go figure..I can even have a civil conversation with her now without a catfight. Because you know what-THIS IS THE INTERNET..once again..let me express myself more clearly-THIS IS THE INTERNET. If you want to drag me into your grandiloquent lectures then go for it! But stop being such a sanctimonious drama queen. Gawd. Your rants are so played out already you can't even see the forest for the trees....

[cheapie]

pretty much