Women's Rights and Divorce: a relation?

[ski]

I just had a thought: could women's rights and divorce rates be related?

I'll do some digging for divorce rates over the years and see. In the 1960's when a woman COULDN'T have any job a man could have, I'd bet my life divorce was lower (since it has never been higher)... but it will matter how much lower. Now that more women are professional and the marriage roles of the earlier times are getting more blurred, we have 50% divorce.

I'm not asking if you are willing to subscribe to this notion or believe it is the only factor, but if you think it's reasonable that as women become more powerful, along with other factors, divorce rates go up? Or do you think there is no relation?

[InfiniteNothing]

Of course these are correlated. Women's rights empower women with the strength to leave a crappy guy or crappy relationship.

[zenbooty]

I think the correlation is pretty obvious. With more independent women in society and more acceptance of them in the work world, more women no longer NEED a man in a feed yourself and put a roof over your head kind of way. So not as much motivation for them to stick with an unhappy relationship.

[guiseppewv]

Of course these are correlated. Women's rights empower women with the strength to leave a crappy guy or crappy relationship.

:stupid:

I agree with this statement but the divorce rate is also increasing b/c more households have 2 people who want to succeed in their careers. Women's rights have increased their education, employment, etc... and that, indirectly, has led to an increase in the divorce rate b/c when both the man and woman have a career and possibly kids there is going to be more stress put on the marriage.

Note: I am not saying that women are to blame for the increase divorce rate. I do not believe that and I did not say that so please do not think that.

[welfareloser]

yeah, the correlation is obvious.

i also think there is less social tyrrany than there was in the past. i think that's mostly a good thing. you aren't committing social suicide by getting divorced anymore. you still get to look your neighbors in the eye afterwards.

in short, i don't think marriages are any worse than they were before. you just get to leave em when they suck these days. i really don't see the value in "sticking it out" so you can spend the rest of your lives bitching at each other.




now... if anyone wants to get me liquored up, i have some un-PC anti-woman thoughts to add... but it'd take at least $20 worth of beer :P

[ShawnLee]

I don't think it's all social tyranny on the part of males, though I'm sure it's part of that. I think having it easier to leave a marriage just doesn't encourage the same amount of "we'll get through this" attitude as it used to. I think that in some cases this truly is for the better, but probably not for the best overall.

[welfareloser]

i never said social tyrranny on the part of males. actually, the brand of social tyrranny i was referring to - gossip, judgement, disapproval - is highly favored by women.

[Maarchk]

I think the divorce rate went up once girls realized that you get half the assets from a divorce and can just keep marrying and getting more assets. ;)

Oh man.. i'm gonna get flogged for that one...

But honestly, i think that society in general is the cause of higher divorce rates. I think society has promoted an instant gratification solution to all problems. Don't like your fat? get lipo suction. Dont like your poorness, get instant credit. Had one little fight with your spouse. Get a divorce and find the real mr right or mrs right. Until the next fight and then try again. I think society has made us a large group of pansies who dont want to work for what we want. We just want an instant answer. And thus we dont appreciate the things we get, cause we didn't really work for it that much in the first place. I think thats why a lot of things dont work out that well. Especially relationships...

[welfareloser]

except for the "half the assets" thing, i'd highly agree :P

these days, half your *joint* assets go to a lawyer, and you get to squabble over the rest. and it's rather difficult to get alimony, btw.

[The Happy Squirrel]

hhmmmmmm
woooooowwwww
what can i sy about this one

nothing nice
so i won't

[oblongmelon]

I just had a thought: could women's rights and divorce rates be related?

I'll do some digging for divorce rates over the years and see. In the 1960's when a woman COULDN'T have any job a man could have, I'd bet my life divorce was lower (since it has never been higher)... but it will matter how much lower. Now that more women are professional and the marriage roles of the earlier times are getting more blurred, we have 50% divorce.

I'm not asking if you are willing to subscribe to this notion or believe it is the only factor, but if you think it's reasonable that as women become more powerful, along with other factors, divorce rates go up? Or do you think there is no relation?
Women smartened up and alot earlier than the 60's...Rosie the Riviter(sp) became an integral part of this country and kept on truckin' for years while the men went off to war, woman worked, raised families and "made do" on their own..it was the beginning of the end for the June Cleavers of this world..it was like giving a dog a taste of blood....

[ialsohaveadream]

now... if anyone wants to get me liquored up, i have some un-PC anti-woman thoughts to add... but it'd take at least $20 worth of beer :P

$20? :rolleyes: Lightweight.

[caribiner23]

There's a real danger of oversimplifying here. It's not just womens' empowerment that led to the increased divorce rate: there was an entire cultural shift from the 1950s to now.

What Obby describes is the beginning of that shift for women, and it's absolutely true. Additionally, the Sexual Revolution of the late 60s also made it culturally acceptable for women (and men) to have sexual relationships outside marriage, and people (not just women) began to realize that staying in a lousy situation was no longer required.


and it's rather difficult to get alimony, btw.
:gle: Tell that to my ex.

[Jeffbx]

now... if anyone wants to get me liquored up, i have some un-PC anti-woman thoughts to add... but it'd take at least $20 worth of beer :P


C'mon... we all know you'll put THAT out for free! :P

[guiseppewv]

I don't think it's all social tyranny on the part of males, though I'm sure it's part of that. I think having it easier to leave a marriage just doesn't encourage the same amount of "we'll get through this" attitude as it used to. I think that in some cases this truly is for the better, but probably not for the best overall.

I agree. Because the consequences are less severe it is easier to say **** it and get a divorce. That is not to say that it isn't good for those who are in abusive/harmful relationships.


But honestly, i think that society in general is the cause of higher divorce rates. I think society has promoted an instant gratification solution to all problems. Don't like your fat? get lipo suction. Dont like your poorness, get instant credit. Had one little fight with your spouse. Get a divorce and find the real mr right or mrs right. Until the next fight and then try again. I think society has made us a large group of pansies who dont want to work for what we want. We just want an instant answer. And thus we dont appreciate the things we get, cause we didn't really work for it that much in the first place. I think thats why a lot of things dont work out that well. Especially relationships...

I agree. We are becoming a society of mice "hitting the button and getting a treat" (i.e. instant gratification).

[welfareloser]

well, you're right... i will :P

okay. so, all "crappy and unsalvageable" relationships aside... the ones that SHOULD end in divorce, and everyone is better off, including the kids...

i think we all agree that some marriages could be saved with some effort. i think one of the biggest problems in these situations is that certain awful attitudes on the part of women are somehow acceptable, and shouldn't be. in the grand tradition of america, "feminism" got taken too far. we americans are masters of taking a good idea and overdoing it to the point of destroying the original intent. (NOTE: before sbp chimes in :P ... feminism has NOT outlived its usefulness. there are still inequalities that need to be resolved. however, in other cases, it's gone too far and needs to stop so that the whole movement doesn't get discarded as trash, which it is NOT. :pfft: ) okay. so i think there are a ton of women out there, especially in my generation (gen x) who think that a man should be attentive to their every need, thought, opinion, and whim... he should anticipate what she wants and deliver before she even asks. if he fails even a tiny bit, he is "insensitive" and she should ride his a$$ mercilessly about it, picking every nuance of his failure to death to help him "shape up." she, however, is not required to do a bit of the same, because that would make her "subservient," and by god she is a fun and fearless cosmo-reading female and she'll be damned if she'll change to meet her man's needs. how disgusting!

women simply feel too empowered and not responsible enough. it needs to be a two-way street... with great power comes great responsibility... and sometimes, it's not.

now, granted, this is from the perspective of someone who is friends with mostly men, so i'm on "their" side when it comes to relationship stuff. and i do recognize that there are plenty of men out there f***ing up relationships singlehandedly, or as part of a team :P

but i see so many women... on the playground with kids, at the bar with boyfriends, etc... who want to take, take, take, and feel no responsibility to give. it's like it never even occured to them. and it's pretty sickening. i can't tell you how many times i've seen a woman yell at her husband IN FRONT OF THEIR KIDS for something he did that was... well, not a problem. for example... on the playground, toddler falls down and cries. dad is watching, and looks like he's trying to decide whether to go pick him up or let him work it out on his own. mom immediately snaps "well, aren't you going to go pick him up?!?!" so he does. kid calms down a bit. dad starts to put him back down... kid jumps back up into his arms... dad starts picking him up again immediately, but mom is already yelling "pick him back up, for god's sake!" *sigh*

someone in a magazine article i read described this as "gatekeeping." as in, the mom acts as a "gatekeeper" to the kids. he can only gain access to the kdis through HER, by doing things her way when she says. the mom has read cosmo enough that she expects the man to do 50% of the child-rearing, but she still wants 100% of the control... so he has to jump to attention and do whatever, but he has to do it her way, not his... he can't win. it makes being around his kids no fun... small wonder many marriages go to hell not long after the kids start appearing.

here's another problem... women feel so much pressure to breastfeed until the kid is 1, to do this and that for their kids, that they just ignore the marriage. i've never seen a man ignore a marriage and devote all his time to stupid kid stuff (they may do that with their jobs, instead :P ) i think that too many people try to have a house, two careers, and kids at the same time, and it's simply too much. you can't hide a crappy hosue... you can't hide effed up kids... you can't hide that you're neglecting your job... but it's easy to hide a crappy marriage, so THAT's the one thing people allow to go to crap, so that everything still looks good on the surface and you're keeping up with the joneses.

i have to wonder how therapists deal with this stuff... altho, by the time they get to therapy, i'm sure it's too late. you really can hurt someone's feelings badly enough that nothing can fix it.

anyway. those are my porrly organized thoughts on the matter. i think most savable marriages could be saved by 1) striving for true equality in the partnership and 2) simplifying your life by someone taking a step back career-wise, or not trying to spread yourself too thin some other way...

[ialsohaveadream]

Ouch, my brain. Sorry, I didn't make it through paragraph three. I have a serious case of Forum ADD.

[WhiskeyPapa]

I wouldn't blame it on the women's movement, but I think they're all part of a connected cultural shift. I do think we're becoming more selfish, and that leads to divorce.

There is a popular myth that women used to be subservient dogs cowering in the shadow of their domineering masters. I don't believe that. I do understand that's how it may look from our modern point of view, but in that day, there were well-defined roles for men and women. Women were supporters, nurturers and care-takers. Men were providers, protectors, servant-leaders. Look at the tragedy of the Titanic. The rule "women and children first" was unquestionably obeyed. Only 159 women and children perished, while only 146 men survived (not counting crew.) Forget what you saw in the movie about men being held back at gunpoint or trying to pose as women, there is no credible evidence of that type of behavior taking place.

Personally, I believe men dropped the ball. They either abused their societal standing as "man of the house" or abdicated it completely. They proved themselves unworthy of that position, thus launching the women's movement.

[johnnymk]

Wow, wl, I am amazed that you are bashing the women that you have seen. I thought that you would take the opposite stance.

I have seen this trend, too and it really disgusts me. But it is reinforced by the media, not only on sitcoms but in ads where the woman is the decision maker and the spineless wimpy husband says: "Oh, you're so smart. I am incapable of making a wise decision".

The male bashing: It's all around us and it's getting worse. It's like everyone watched Archie Bunker, figured that he represented every husband and father of the 20th century and then decided to reverse his stereotype times 500%.

I read a book 25 years ago called "Sexual Suicide" documenting this problem and how it would flourish in modern day society. I am so thankful for that book, because it opened my eyes making me aware of this ever increasing problem.

It's one more reason that I never married. I can not stand castrating women.

[zenbooty]

I can not stand castrating women.Jeez, then stop! I can't imagine they enjoy it much either.



(Sorry, couldn't resist. I know that's not what you meant)

[welfareloser]

yeah... well, i'm simply foucssing on one of many contributing problems, simply because it's one that i don't think gets the attention it deserves.

kb's thoughts are certainly the most balanced, and thus probably closest to accurate. cultural change is moving at an unprecedented rate, and we're all having trouble catching up. there were major drawbacks to limited choices, but at least one thing was good about it - you knew who you were and what you were supposed to do. even though i've chosen to be a very traditional stay-at-home mom and housewife - my husband makes 100% of the money and i do 100% of the housework, eek! - i'm very, very glad that i had a choice in the matter and i think the world is better for it. but, in a world where we all get to define our own roles, well, some of us are screwing it up royally :P

i don't think it was just men dropping the ball... in your generation, men were raised by traditional women... and married women who expected somethign completely different. so many women banded together and supported each other in the brave new world... there were wondrful books, clubs, organizations... the cultural shift centered itself on women, and that was all great... but nobody helped the men find their way in it. being a breadwinner isn't good enough.

and to look at the half-full side instead of the half-empty... plenty of men (and couples) have found their way just fine. men get to know their children in a way that previous generations couldn't. men and women share leisure activities. men knit; women snowboard. a woman doesn't have to get married to survive. couples that don't want kids simply don't have them. you can have sex without getting pregnant. nobody's forced to fit into a pigeonhole that doesn't suit them. it's mostly a good thing... we jsut have some kinks to work out :)