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doolittle

05-05-2005, 08:10 AM

No, not exaxtly. but he played a huge part in getting it to the American People. It allways kind of irks me when people laugh at Gores statement, if it werent for his vision of its potential, the internet would probibly still be a Gov project or nothing like the net we know today.

The Associated Press
Updated: 9:25 a.m. ET May 5, 2005

NEW YORK - Al Gore may have been lampooned for taking credit in the Internet's development, but organizers of the Webby Awards for online achievements don't find it funny at all. In part to "set the record straight," they will give Gore a lifetime achievement award for three decades of contributions to the Internet, said Tiffany Shlain, the awards' founder and chairwoman.

"It's just one of those instances someone did amazing work for three decades as congressman, senator and vice president and it got spun around into this political mess," Shlain said.

Vint Cerf, undisputedly one of the Internet's key inventors, will give Gore the award at a June 6 ceremony in New York.

"He is indeed due some thanks and consideration for his early contributions," Cerf said.

Gore, who boasted in a CNN interview he "took the initiative in creating the Internet," was only 21 when the Internet was born out of a Pentagon project.

But after joining Congress eight years later, he promoted high-speed telecommunications for economic growth and supported funding increases for the then-fledging network, according to the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences, which presents the annual awards.

He popularized the term "information superhighway" as vice president.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7746308/

bachviet

05-05-2005, 08:18 AM

But he de-invented just two months ago. (http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85463) :P

doolittle

05-05-2005, 08:35 AM

But he de-invented just two months ago. (http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85463) :P

lol, i must have missed that. i wonder what i would have done to waste time all these years if the internet wasent so readily availible.

guiseppewv

05-05-2005, 09:35 AM

doolittle

05-05-2005, 10:30 AM

guiseppewv

05-05-2005, 12:10 PM

so you completely discount gore's participation in transforming arpnet into the internet?

With or without him it would have happened. I am not saying that he didn't play a role in it but many other people played much, much bigger roles than he did.

Paymaster

05-05-2005, 12:26 PM

First I think this should go in the political forum.

Heh heh... the political forum is a sub-forum of OT. Now we need another political forum that is a sub-forum of SW/OS/Internet. :dead:

doolittle

05-05-2005, 01:30 PM

With or without him it would have happened. I am not saying that he didn't play a role in it but many other people played much, much bigger roles than he did.
i can see your point, alot of engineers worked their fingers to the bone to create the net. one person claiming all the credit for it is pretty much dumping on all the brilliant people who actually made it work. its actually typical of the way gore operates. i can also see his side of it though, i dont think it would be as popular or entertaining as it is today without his influence and position of power. yes we would have file sharing etc but i doubt it would be the multimedia machine that it is today.

DarkFury

05-05-2005, 02:38 PM

First I think this should go in the political forum. Secondly, I personally was offended (b/c I am a software/computer/electrical/network/etc... engineer) that he claimed to help in the invention of the internet when in fact the internet was around way before he ever took office. So did Al Gore invent the internet? No. The fact is that the internet was around before he ever took office.....and it was going transform into "public use" with or without him.

Why are you "offended" by this... (and if so... then I guess you are EASILY offended".)

Gore, who boasted in a CNN interview he "took the initiative in creating the Internet," was only 21 when the Internet was born out of a Pentagon project.

But after joining Congress eight years later, he promoted high-speed telecommunications for economic growth and supported funding increases for the then-fledging network

The article clearly stated that this "body of work" started when Gore was 21... well before he was in "office" in 1992. The internet did officially start during the "late 60s" and Gore, who is about 57 now, was in the right place at the right time (not saying that he is solely responsible for it... but the facts are the facts.) to have a hand in its initial development.

Honestly, it just looks to me like you are trying to make a political statement here... and that might be considered "offensive" to those who want this to be about "internet" discussions versus "political" discussions.

Just my opinion on that...

guiseppewv

05-06-2005, 11:22 AM

i can see your point, alot of engineers worked their fingers to the bone to create the net. one person claiming all the credit for it is pretty much dumping on all the brilliant people who actually made it work. its actually typical of the way gore operates. i can also see his side of it though, i dont think it would be as popular or entertaining as it is today without his influence and position of power. yes we would have file sharing etc but i doubt it would be the multimedia machine that it is today.

I do think that Gore added to and possibly sped up the transformation of "the net" to what it is today. FYI: Things were moving towards it being what it is today way before Netscape, Al Gore, etc... got in on the act.

guiseppewv

05-06-2005, 11:35 AM

Why are you "offended" by this... (and if so... then I guess you are EASILY offended".)

I am not easily offended but I do get offended when people in my profession are not given due credit and Al brags about creating the internet. That would be like a politician with no engineering or science background claiming that they invented the automobile b/c they were around when it was invented and they might have helped secure a govt loan for the inventor.

Or it would be like a politician taking credit for getting a man on the moon. Who deserves most of the credit? The people who made it happen or the person who helped pass some legislation that made it happen?

I can guarantee you one thing the internet would be here without Al Gore but would the internet be here with Al Gore but without the engineers and scientists who designed it? I doubt it.

The article clearly stated that this "body of work" started when Gore was 21... well before he was in "office" in 1992. The internet did officially start during the "late 60s" and Gore, who is about 57 now, was in the right place at the right time (not saying that he is solely responsible for it... but the facts are the facts.) to have a hand in its initial development.

Honestly, it just looks to me like you are trying to make a political statement here... and that might be considered "offensive" to those who want this to be about "internet" discussions versus "political" discussions.

Just my opinion on that...

So did Al Gore did invent the internet? Take a look at this quote from the article:

Gore, who boasted in a CNN interview he "took the initiative in creating the Internet," was only 21 when the Internet was born out of a Pentagon project.

But after joining Congress eight years later, he promoted high-speed telecommunications for economic growth and supported funding increases for the then-fledging network, according to the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences, which presents the annual awards.

DARPA created the internet way before Gore had a clue what a computer was. It was around for 8 years before he even took office in congress. There were many scientists and engineers who were much more important in the internet's development than Gore.

As an example of who deserves credit: Did you ever use Mosaic 16 or Mosaic 32 whic was developed by NCSA? They were both predecessors to Netscape. Eventhough Mosaic 16 was created in mid 1993 the people at NCSA deserve much more credit than Gore just for this one piece of the puzzle and they contributed much more than this one piece. But I am going to guess that you never have heard of Mosaic and without the research and design that went into it we probably would not have the web browsers we have today.

Also, I know that he "supported funding increases for the then-fledging network" but do you think he was the only one who voted for the funding increases?

Regardless of my opinion of Al as a politician he lied when he said he invented the internet and in the process he took away from all the hard work that scientists and engineers put into actually inventing the internet.

hapoo

05-06-2005, 11:53 AM

FYI, i'm a Comp Eng. For people who this information matters to (you and me, not joe shmoe), they already know the origins and inventors of the internet.
But I could create something WONDERFUL, but if i don't get the support behind it, it'll never reach its full potential. He didn't invent it by any means, but he did play a part in making it what it is today and he deserves credit for it.

And this isn't even bad. You want an injustice? Do some research into who really invented the telephone. Now THATS F'd up!

" The Italian Historical Society of America sustains that Antonio Meucci, an immigrant from Italy who lived in Staten Island in new York City, invented the telephone, and has been denied fame and fortune only because he lacked $250 and because Bell himself rifled the files of a patent office, destroyng the evidence of Meucci's invention. The Society argues that Meucci filed a patent for a "telefono" on Dec.28,1871, a full five years before Bell filed his patent. "We can only credit Mr. Bell with commercializing the invention of Meucci", said John La Corte, the president of the Italian Historical Society of America. "In the tradition of fair play and honesty, let Meucci have the honor to be recognized as the "Father of the Telephone" in the encyclopedia. Let Mr. Bell have the money." According to the Society, in 1871 Meucci could not afford the $250 necessary to purchase a regular patentfor his telefono, so he purchased a temporary patent for $10. In 1874, Meucci still did not have $250 and his temporary patent-number 3335-was aollowed to lapse.
"
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:yJJmUbzxrdUJ:www.telephoneteca.com/Telephony.htm+telephone+invented+france&hl=en&client=firefox-a

DarkFury

05-06-2005, 12:14 PM

guiseppewv's ranting...

Give some dates if you are trying to prove a point... What is the official date of the "creation of the internet"?

Let's not focus on the "politics" for a moment (because you sure are leaning heavily on that at this point... and it is moot to the discussion).

Did one person actually create the internet? If so, then who's idea (not agency) was it? Let's start talkin' in facts here since all the "speculation" has you all hot and bothered up in here.

BTW... I'm not defending Gore here, but honestly I just don't get what all the fuss is about. If you have another person who should be a "nominee" for an award like this, then come on out and state who they are and stop the political "huffing and puffing" that I'm seeing here. Pretty much if they want to give an award to someone who championed the cause... then so be it. Maybe "your guy" will win it next year... :D

BTW Part II... lots of people create things that other people get credit for. Hell, Bill Gates alone probably gets most of that credit... but did HE do the actual work? Either way, I still think your line of reasoning here is slightly skewed...

Eventhough Mosaic 16 was created in mid 1993 the people at NCSA deserve much more credit than Gore just for this one piece of the puzzle and they contributed much more than this one piece. But I am going to guess that you never have heard of Mosaic and without the research and design that went into it we probably would not have the web browsers we have today.
Last I checked... late 1960s came before 1993...

Yes I've heard of MOSAIC.. but I'm not an expert on it, but that is besides the point of this issue. If someone on MOSAIC deserves an award.. .then maybe they will get it next year. We're not saying that Al is single and ONLY person who should get credit here. But dayuuum... if they are only giving one award, then I guess everyone else is just mad until next year... :shrug:

DarkFury

05-06-2005, 12:30 PM

BTW... just to add to this thread, here is a bone for the "history of the internet". I don't know if everything is true but hey.... it looks good enough to me.

http://www.anderbergfamily.net/ant/history/

Next year... I nominate "The Homing Pigeon" as the true creator of "the internet" :D

BTW guiseppewv... it looks like "Lawrence Roberts" is your man here:

June 1967 - Lawrence Roberts publishes the first design paper on ARPANET entitled Multiple Computer Networks and Intercomputer Communication at ACM's Gatlinburg conference.

So now we know who to thank for the wonderful thing we all know and love as the "internet" :D

guiseppewv

05-06-2005, 01:06 PM

FYI, i'm a Comp Eng. For people who this information matters to (you and me, not joe shmoe), they already know the origins and inventors of the internet.
But I could create something WONDERFUL, but if i don't get the support behind it, it'll never reach its full potential. He didn't invent it by any means, but he did play a part in making it what it is today and he deserves credit for it.

As I said before he does deserve to get some credit but there were many other people who voted to increase funding for it and many other people that deserve credit and that deserve more credit than Al.

And this isn't even bad. You want an injustice? Do some research into who really invented the telephone. Now THATS F'd up!

" The Italian Historical Society of America sustains that Antonio Meucci, an immigrant from Italy who lived in Staten Island in new York City, invented the telephone, and has been denied fame and fortune only because he lacked $250 and because Bell himself rifled the files of a patent office, destroyng the evidence of Meucci's invention. The Society argues that Meucci filed a patent for a "telefono" on Dec.28,1871, a full five years before Bell filed his patent. "We can only credit Mr. Bell with commercializing the invention of Meucci", said John La Corte, the president of the Italian Historical Society of America. "In the tradition of fair play and honesty, let Meucci have the honor to be recognized as the "Father of the Telephone" in the encyclopedia. Let Mr. Bell have the money." According to the Society, in 1871 Meucci could not afford the $250 necessary to purchase a regular patentfor his telefono, so he purchased a temporary patent for $10. In 1874, Meucci still did not have $250 and his temporary patent-number 3335-was aollowed to lapse.
"
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:yJJmUbzxrdUJ:www.telephoneteca.com/Telephony.htm+telephone+invented+france&hl=en&client=firefox-a

This one was sad and so was the invention of the radio. Anyone ever heard of Nikola Tesla? If you have heard of him it is probably a) b/c it is the unit of measure for flux density (or field intensity) for magnetic fields (also called the magnetic induction), b) you played C&C, or c) you have heard of the band "Tesla". You should have heard about him inventing the radio.

http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~bogdan/tesla/

guiseppewv

05-06-2005, 01:14 PM

DF's ranting

I guess you missed out that they were giving Al a lifetime award not one of their yearly awards. I did not name a single person b/c there are soooooo many people who deserve credit before Al receives any.

As I said before the internet would be around without Al but would the internet be around with Al supporting it but without the scientists and engineers who designed the internet or came up with internet protocol (IP) or designed the first browsers or designed the first switch/router/etc.. or designed the way a "packet" would be layed out or designed the.... well you get my point. There are way more people who had a bigger part in making the internet what it is compared to AG but they don't run around claiming they invented the internet.

Last I checked... late 1960s came before 1993...

That is my point exactly. The people who designed mosaic deserve more credit in making the internet what it is than Al does and they came 20+ years after the creation of the internet.

BTW guiseppewv... it looks like "Lawrence Roberts" is your man here:

So now we know who to thank for the wonderful thing we all know and love as the "internet" :D

I didn't realize that who actually invented the internet was very important to you. I could have told you that he was one of the inventors from the begining. :P Yes.....I am a geek. :cheers:

EDIT:

The Internet was the result of some visionary thinking by people in the early 1960s who saw great potential value in allowing computers to share information on research and development in scientific and military fields. J.C.R. Licklider of MIT, first proposed a global network of computers in 1962, and moved over to the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) in late 1962 to head the work to develop it. Leonard Kleinrock of MIT and later UCLA developed the theory of packet switching, which was to form the basis of Internet connections. Lawrence Roberts of MIT connected a Massachusetts computer with a California computer in 1965 over dial-up telephone lines. It showed the feasibility of wide area networking, but also showed that the telephone line's circuit switching was inadequate. Kleinrock's packet switching theory was confirmed. Roberts moved over to DARPA in 1966 and developed his plan for ARPANET. These visionaries and many more left unnamed here are the real founders of the Internet.

bachviet

05-06-2005, 01:40 PM

BTW Mosaic was the first browser I used to surf. :D

bbrian

05-06-2005, 02:12 PM

snip.. I'm a geek too.. currently working for a telecom company and IMO, I think Gore deserves a lot of credit. First of all he didn't say crap about 'inventing' anything. And when he says 'Internet' he isn't refering to the physical network and protocols like you keep talking about. He's referring to taking what was a huge private network and pushing it out to the public and corporate world. In that transformation a LOT of things happened that the original engineers never dreamed of.

A lot of people that helped invent/create the internet, were NOT wanting it to become a huge public network. Maybe it would have still been made public without gores help, but how much regulation and special interest groups would have their hand in it? Would it really be what it is today? We'll never know because of the many politicians that worked to not regulate the crap out of it. If it weren't for the political side of the creation of the Internet there would be nothing but govt institutions and colleges connected to it. The internet is one of the only things govt has done right in the last few decades.

Mosiac was cool, but when it first came out telnet and ftp was all you needed and where all the good stuff was.

guiseppewv

05-06-2005, 02:17 PM

BTW Mosaic was the first browser I used to surf. :D

You are a geek!!!!

Mosaic was the first browser I used too :)

guiseppewv

05-06-2005, 02:33 PM

I'm a geek too.. currently working for a telecom company and IMO, I think Gore deserves a lot of credit. First of all he didn't say crap about 'inventing' anything. And when he says 'Internet' he isn't refering to the physical network and protocols like you keep talking about. He's referring to taking what was a huge private network and pushing it out to the public and corporate world. In that transformation a LOT of things happened that the original engineers never dreamed of.

A lot of people that helped invent/create the internet, were NOT wanting it to become a huge public network. Maybe it would have still been made public without gores help, but how much regulation and special interest groups would have their hand in it? Would it really be what it is today? We'll never know because of the many politicians that worked to not regulate the crap out of it. If it weren't for the political side of the creation of the Internet there would be nothing but govt institutions and colleges connected to it. The internet is one of the only things govt has done right in the last few decades.

Mosiac was cool, but when it first came out telnet and ftp was all you needed and where all the good stuff was.

Actually it was public from 1969 on.

The Internet, then known as ARPANET, was brought online in 1969 under a contract let by the renamed Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) which initially connected four major computers at universities in the southwestern US (UCLA, Stanford Research Institute, UCSB, and the University of Utah). The contract was carried out by BBN of Cambridge, MA under Bob Kahn and went online in December 1969. By June 1970, MIT, Harvard, BBN, and Systems Development Corp (SDC) in Santa Monica, Cal. were added. By January 1971, Stanford, MIT's Lincoln Labs, Carnegie-Mellon, and Case-Western Reserve U were added. In months to come, NASA/Ames, Mitre, Burroughs, RAND, and the U of Illinois plugged in. After that, there were far too many to keep listing here.

It is safe to say that it wasn't private anymore when they let public colleges plug in. Libraries (public) used the "internet" in its infancy (1969).

According to a CNN transcript of an interview with Wolf Blitzer, Al Gore said,"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." Al Gore was not yet in Congress in 1969 when ARPANET started or in 1974 when the term Internet first came into use. Gore was elected to Congress in 1976. In fairness, Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf acknowledge in a paper titled Al Gore and the Internet that Gore has probably done more than any other elected official to support the growth and development of the Internet from the 1970's to the present .

Al Gore wasn't even in congress when the term "internet" was coined. The main contractor, led by Bob Kahn, says that Gore probably has done more than any other elected official to support the growth and devep of the internet from the 70's to the present time. Notice he said "elected official" not everyone.

I was going to copy and past this whole article:
http://www.walthowe.com/navnet/history.html
but the way it is layed out makes it a pain to copy and paste. I recommend it as an interesting read no matter what you think of Al Gore's significance or insignificance in the internet's creation.

Showtime

05-06-2005, 02:48 PM

Thanks Al!

-j

DarkFury

05-06-2005, 03:03 PM

I guess you missed out that they were giving Al a lifetime award not one of their yearly awards. I did not name a single person b/c there are soooooo many people who deserve credit before Al receives any.
I still don't get why this has you so miffed... it's almost like you were expecting the award for yourself. :heh: Honestly... I'm like "whatever" here... :shrug:

As I said before the internet would be around without Al but would the internet be around with Al supporting it but without the scientists and engineers who designed the internet or came up with internet protocol (IP) or designed the first browsers or designed the first switch/router/etc.. or designed the way a "packet" would be layed out or designed the.... well you get my point. There are way more people who had a bigger part in making the internet what it is compared to AG but they don't run around claiming they invented the internet.
Once again... I'm like "so what"? If you feel that strongly about it... why not write in your concerns that they pick a better candidate next time. Honestly your whole arguement reads like a "I hate AL" letter...

Man... if I could protest every award ever given to someone who I thought didn't deserve it.. Sheesh... :shrug:

That is my point exactly. The people who designed mosaic deserve more credit in making the internet what it is than Al does and they came 20+ years after the creation of the internet.
Ok... well maybe they'll get recognized one day. If you are into following that kind of thing. I'm sure "the industry" recognizes folks all the time... but those of us who don't follow it THAT closely will never know now will we?

I didn't realize that who actually invented the internet was very important to you. I could have told you that he was one of the inventors from the begining. :P Yes.....I am a geek. :cheers:

EDIT:
Well at least that name would have some factual and easily supportable data behind it. I basically brought it up since you were making a big deal of Al getting all this recognition.

I'm gonna say it again.. in case you didn't realize earlier... "I could really give a rat's @ss about who they gave that award to". Ok.. so they gave it to Al... good for him. Bravo... good job and all that. Honestly, my life has not changed in light of that announcement. Neither should yours (which I doubt it has...)

This dialogue with ME started because I questioned your dragging this thread into the "political" evironment and your disapproval of Gore... the actual inventor of the internet really wasn't something that was important but at least it was arguable in context of them giving it to Al... Bottom line, just admit it.. you like to debate these kinds of issues don't ya? :D (and you are really taking this serious too aren't ya? :heh: )

Finally... YES... YOU ARE A GEEK. That... we can verify and you have acknowledged it. Now do you want a "lifetime award" for that too? :heh:

guiseppewv

05-06-2005, 03:13 PM

I still don't get why this has you so miffed... it's almost like you were expecting the award for yourself. :heh: Honestly... I'm like "whatever" here... :shrug:

Once again... I'm like "so what"? If you feel that strongly about it... why not write in your concerns that they pick a better candidate next time. Honestly your whole arguement reads like a "I hate AL" letter...

Just rubs me the wrong way when politicians try and lay claim to something that big. I personally could care less about what award he wins I was rubbed the wrong way by the lady and the article trying to defend what Al said. Besides the award is probably the equivalent of the lifetime geek award you want to give me. :)

Ok... well maybe they'll get recognized one day. If you are into following that kind of thing. I'm sure "the industry" recognizes folks all the time... but those of us who don't follow it THAT closely will never know now will we?

IEEE does recognize people along with a few other worthwhile technical organizations.

admit it.. you like to debate these kinds of issues don't ya? :D (and you are really taking this serious too aren't ya? :heh: )

Yes and No. Yes I like to debate, sometimes. No, not too serious....just bored. I am going home now so I will no longer be bored or have a need for this debate. :)

Finally... YES... YOU ARE A GEEK. That... we can verify and you have acknowledged it. Now do you want a "lifetime award" for that too? :heh:
Yes....d@mmit!!!! :heh:

DarkFury

05-06-2005, 06:10 PM

Yes and No. Yes I like to debate, sometimes. No, not too serious....just bored. I am going home now so I will no longer be bored or have a need for this debate. :)

It's hard to convince someone who's already convinced... enjoy your day and try not to think too hard about "Al". Think too hard about him...and he'll be running through your mind all day (and all night...)

Ewww... freaky. :eek:

ShawnLee

05-06-2005, 06:49 PM

He misspoke, I think that people belaboring the point (hammering that he didn't create the net vs. those that look for reasons to say he did) are missing the point. That is, unless it's for comedic effect, then everything goes into play (because, even I'll admit that it was funny when he made fun of himself for that).

The Webby's are doing something here not worth doing. So saith Shawn. :P