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ribitch
06-10-2005, 09:19 PM
In Defense of General Motors
By Roger Simmermaker

May 7, 2005

Defense, defense, defense. That’s all that General Motors, and Detroit in general, can play these days. Many American car and truck buyers and many of those in the media, who write about their buying habits, should know better than to spew their venom at GM for their recent financial troubles.
It might be different if the reasons that GM continues to lose market share weren’t largely beyond their control, but they are. As an increasing number of Americans spend their money on and drive around in Toyotas and Hondas, the answer to the question "Why doesn’t GM have the money to build a car more to my liking?" seems to evade them.


As if the impending health care crisis in America was no clue at all, some
even bring up the fact that GM spends over $1,500 per automobile just to provide health care to their employees, retirees and their dependents. By comparison, Toyota and Honda spend only a few hundred dollars per
automobile, mainly because GM has been operating in the United States since the invention of the automobile and Toyota, for instance, only built their first plant here in 1987. Yet they still accuse that GM is "living in thepast" even though Cadillac now outsells Mercedes, The Chevy Impala beat theToyota Camry in initial quality and Consumer Reports detailed how Buick now beats BMW in reliability.


But in these times where low-wage Wal-Mart has now replaced high-wage
General Motors as the number one employer in the U.S., most Americans get a pass for not having the time to dig deeply enough to understand what is really going on since a large portion of America is working longer hours for lower wages and is just trying to put in enough time at work to make ends meet. It may seem that your car-buying decision would have no effect on your personal prosperity or that of your country, but it does.

It really does matter if you buy an American-made Chevrolet instead of an American-made Toyota. When you buy an American-made Chevy, you not only support more American workers, but also American investors, owners and stockholders. When you buy an American-made Toyota, you may help your Uncle Bob if he’s on Toyota’s payroll, but you’re hurting Uncle Sam since American companies pay about three times as many taxes to the U.S. Treasury compared to foreign-owned companies. That’s something to think about the next time you hear we have to cut benefits or raise the retirement age simply because the U.S. Treasury doesn’t have enough funds to meet its obligations to Social Security or other benefit programs.

General Motors doesn’t have enough money to meet its obligations either.
And it’s for the very honorable reason that they have promised adequate
health care and pensions to their workers who gave their lives to a company that has in turn supported so many American livelihoods for so long. If we stop buying GM products, we de-fund American retirees and prevent them from contributing to the American economy. Sure, you have a choice in buying a foreign car over an American one, but if you buy the foreign car, you will likely cause a retiree to make a choice between food and medicine. That very choice is a daily one for many senior citizens in this country right now.

Think it’s not possible? Think again. The Pension Benefit Guaranty
Corporation (PBGC) has already taken over several pensions from failed
American companies in the steel and airline industries and beyond. When
these companies declare bankruptcy and a failure to meet their obligations, this government-funded agency - which is also running in the red – takes over and gives seniors roughly half of what they were promised by the now bankrupt company.


This results in a hidden cost to taxpayers since any shortfall in
government revenue must be made up eventually in higher taxes or benefit
cuts or both. So there you have it. Failure to find a GM (or other
American) automobile you can stand will negatively affect your standard of
living in one way or another. And you thought that since you didn’t work in
the car industry it didn’t affect you. Think again.

The Detroit News recently published the facts, daring to go against the
deceiving "foreign cars are built there and American cars are built there"
rhetoric that implies it makes no difference if you buy an American-made
Honda instead of an American-made Pontiac. The newspaper reported that American and foreign automakers alike were playing the "Made in USA Card" to attract buyers. And you thought consumers didn’t care. Poll after poll has shown Americans are even willing to pay more to buy American, let alone when quality and price are similar or equal. Most Americans advocate fair play and equality but eventually they will find out - possibly the hard way that either of these attributes apply in the automobile marketplace unless those Americans that should know better start buying American cars again.
I’m not asking or expecting the die-hard import buyer crowd to stop their
silly griping and buy American. GM’s future doesn’t depend on them. It
depends on those Americans that really should know better.

As the Detroit News article boldly pointed out, GM has 82 major plants in the United States, while Toyota, Honda and Nissan combined have only 24. GM has more American salaried workers than Toyota has total American workers. With 194,000 employees in America, even after hard times, General Motors still employs six times as many Americans as Toyota, seven times as many as Honda, and 12 times as many as Nissan. As Business Week pointed out in 2002 (the last data I have seen on the subject), each auto-assembly job created by an American company also creates 6.9 other American jobs, where each auto-assembly job created by a foreign company creates only 5.5 other American jobs. This is true simply because American automobile companies get more of their parts from America.

And what about those foreign transplant factories? A 1995 United Auto
Workers study concluded that these foreign automobile companies operating in the United States caused at least 500,000 Americans to lose their jobs
.
I would hate to think of what that total is today.

The new May 9, 2005 issue of Business Week details how GM contributes to the pockets of their assembly workers to the tune of $8.7 billion a year and either directly or indirectly supports the employment of 900,000 Americans. Business Week also claims it is "undeniable" that what is bad for GM is bad for America, pointing to a 54-day strike in 1998 that cut that quarter’s economic growth for the entire country a whole percentage point.

Many point to bad management decisions in the past to justify their
reasoning for not supporting GM, claiming it is it "widely known" that they
made horrible cars in the 1970’s. Its amazing people who weren’t even
driving age in the 1970’s (this author wasn’t) want to penalize GM for
mismanagement as they overlook any mismanagement by other car companies they anxiously spend their money with instead. I have never heard anyone vehemently refuse to buy a Nissan since they almost went bankrupt in the late 1990’s. Nor do I hear people planning to penalize Japanese car makers for the (widely known) junk they imported in the 1960’s.

In 1999, the Wall Street Journal reported Nissan lost millions of dollars
in five of the last six years. Nissan’s debt stood between $22 billion and
$30 billion, which dwarfed that of any other auto maker. The Wall Street Journal, which is no huge supporter of GM, claimed Nissan would be bankrupt if it happened to be American company.

The claim that GM made inferior cars in the 1970?s is suspect to me anyway, not because of my patriotic motivation, but because of my personal experience. The 1976 Riviera I owned was outstanding as far as quality and longevity was concerned, and 1976 is right in the middle of the supposed quality-challenged decade for American cars. An Auto Week magazine article even call it a "boat with no tail" in a piece they did about the history of the Riviera.

Shortly after the car passed 200,000 miles, I drove it from Florida to
Illinois and back to demonstrate to some skeptical friends that the car
would make it up, down and through the Smokey Mountains of Tennessee just fine, as I was getting my own share of comments about how terrible American cars supposedly were. The car had over 250,000 miles before I had it hauled off to the junkyard, but not before a co-worker bought the engine for his airboat. The engine was so quiet no one knew (by listening) that I warmed it up for 5-10 minutes before I drove home from work as my co-workers walked past it in the parking lot to get in their own cars to drive home. People would walk by my â??76 Riviera, stop for a second, and ask me "Is that car running?" The body had rusted out by the late 1990s, but the car never had the advantage of a garage to protect it from the Florida sun and Atlantic Ocean’s salty air.

General Motors spent $5.2 billion on health care for their workers and
retirees in 2004. The 2005 figure will be higher. The figure for Toyota,
for instance, is certainly less since they didn’t build their first
American factory until 1987. The Georgetown, KY factory, which assembles the Toyota Camry, was built with Japanese steel by a Japanese steel company. Toyota was given 1,500 of free land. To attract this Japanese company to America, we even established a "special trade zone" so they could import parts duty-free from Japan. Financing was handled by Mitsui Bank of Japan. Total federal, state and local tax incentives (read giveaways) reached $100 million - courtesy of your tax dollars and mine.

These are some of the hidden costs few think about when selecting their
next car. Before the first Toyota in American was ever assembled, the
American steel industry, parts industry and finance industry took it on the chin. American tax obligations were also raised to boot. Today’s Camry has a 55% domestic parts content, which is down from 75% just a few years earlier. American alternatives like the Chevy Impala has a 98% domestic parts content and the aging Ford Taurus, which used to be the number one selling car in America before the Camry took the top spot, has a 95% domestic parts content.

In the end, it doesn’t matter how you slice it. General Motors pays more
taxes, employs more workers, has more domestic plants, supports more
families, retirees and their dependents, and has higher overall domestic
parts content than the foreign competition - hands down. American quality
is on the rise. Efficiency has increased. GM kept America rolling by
donating millions of dollars in cash and vehicles in the aftermath of
September 11, 2001. Where was the foreign competition in America’s time of need? They were busy reaping in record profits and sending them home to reward foreign owners at the expense of an American company that built the foundation of prosperity that America as a whole enjoys.

Profits are the lifeblood of any successful company or economy. General
Motors makes only a few hundred dollars of profit per vehicle compared to over a thousand dollars for their foreign rivals because GM supports such a wide and diverse number of Americans. They’ve shown their loyalty to America by extending 0% financing for several years, and through their history they’ve done more good for America than any foreign car company ever dreamed of doing. It’s time for America to show their loyalty to an American company whose own increased prosperity will result in greater American prosperity as well.

So if you want General Motors to get more aggressive and on the offensive in terms of marketing, bolder car designs, etc., stop spewing your venom at them, which makes them constantly play defense instead. It’s unfair, unwarranted, and unproductive. GM wants to keep America rolling - as we all should - so let’s let it and make it happen.

How Americans Can Buy American
Post Office Box 780839
Orlando, Florida 32878-0839

DarkFury
06-10-2005, 11:57 PM
I still say...

If GM wants Americans to buy their cars... then they better dayuum well get on the ball and make cars that people WANT to buy... and not some raggedy, half assed, thrown together designs that make you say... "Fugg it" before you even want to test drive it.

Pretty much as had been said before, the only vehicles GM has that "seem" to be popluar now is the Cadillacs lines (Escalades and STS are just nice), Hummer (Bling Bling!), Corvette, and their 1500 Silverado and SUVs (Chevy and GMC). Everything else on a "car" platform just leaves you feeling "blah"...

People don't wanna pay for "blah"... but they will pay for "Wow" at a very reasonable price. I think GM has forgotten how to "WOW" us for under $25K, and that is quite a shame... :2far:

Eugene
06-11-2005, 12:14 AM
Agreed, DF. Until GM or any American car can make cars with a similar "feel" of Civics, Sentras, RSXs, and WRXs, they're going to have to be pretty creative w/their trucks.

But the article was still pretty good... interesting perspective and info and for a little while it did make me feel bad for wanting to buy import cars. But at times I think the whole patriotic thing was a little too overblown for my tastes.

InfiniteNothing
06-11-2005, 09:17 AM
For the two posts above: people are biased against american cars before even they test drive the car or even see it. I mean, there's been a couple threads recently about "I'm looking for a car but not anything American." That sounds like something outside of GM's control. Do those things justify putting Americans out of work?

DarkFury
06-11-2005, 10:53 AM
For the two posts above: people are biased against american cars before even they test drive the car or even see it. I mean, there's been a couple threads recently about "I'm looking for a car but not anything American." That sounds like something outside of GM's control. Do those things justify putting Americans out of work?
So are you agreeing or disagreeing with us...

I think you are trying to agree... since I clearly stated that people are turned off before they even take it out for a test drive.

Honestly, I've always had American cars (unless you wanna count my '89 Probe as a "Mazda" hybrid). My Brother always buys Nissans (Maximas)... So far I haven't bought into the "American made cars are crap" line... however I have realized that some "American Car Companies" take us customers for granted and don't deserve our support (and I'm sure I don't have to re-iterate who I am talkin' about here...)

I'm still driving an "American made" vehicle... even if it is infused with German technology. :heh:

cheapodeepo
06-11-2005, 12:50 PM
obviously everyone wont agree

but agree to WOW 4 under 25k

if it can b done

Eugene
06-11-2005, 10:42 PM
...Do those things justify putting Americans out of work?
Yes and no.

Yes because if a company has uncompetitive products, then clearly that company will most likely not do well and fail. In this case, the bias is justified and the company has its work cut out for it to improve the product line.

No because with cars, it is very possible the reputation of a car company (let's assume they were unreliable in every fashion and suddenly got REALLY good) or the domestic/import factor can directly effect how much press the car gets and the public's impression of it. And if that is the case with GM or other American companies, then clearly the playing field would be biased towards imports despite both American and import car companies having equivalent products.

That said, it's probably some combination of both, so I did do a quick overview of some American cars (I'm more into the "American cars are crap" thing). It seems the Cobalt is trying at what i mentioned above as the "feel" of certain imports... it does a semi-decent job on me, though its styling is rather bland. And someone fix the brake lights please...a little too impala and not enough "sports." (sorry... despite whatever history the impala may have, which I'm not even really too sure about, I see it as a big, cushy car that's fast) This is a car that didn't seem to get much press for some reason or other (or more likely I wasn't paying attention). I'd definitely go for an SRT-4 despite its neon lineage, but the half power windows and half non-power windows is kind of strange. And the Focus seems like a nice little car (3-dr version), though the latest versions have supposedly been cheapened to save costs, there's no svt version at the moment, and we won't get the RS version. Anyway I certainly don't WANT people to lose jobs because I like cars that are imports (well... me and a bunch of other people. Or is it, "a bunch of other people and I"?). I think our original verdict still stands though: if they made a car we could love, we'd love back. At least I would.

attgig
06-12-2005, 06:27 AM
So, eugene, do you love imports? if you were to list out your top 5 favorite cars (e.g. if you were to buy a car, these would be the top 5 cars you would look at), are they all imports? mostly imports? have they been for the past 5+ years? could it be that you have subconsciously an affinity towards imports, simply because you've liked them in the past?

from generally talking with people & here (as infinite pointed out), people just like japanese cars, and japanese car makers don't have to wow consumers with anything (i just don't understand how anyone can like the styling of an accord or camry...i'm sorry, but they're ugly - especially the accord). I think the taurus had that advantage years ago that people even bought that ugly bubble in 96 or so.

so now.... instead of putting out a decent product that is no worse than a japanese product, they have to wow you, and give it to you for cheap. hmmm, sounds familiar. Hyundai's been trying to do this for the past few years. the wow factor being 10year warranty (not the car), but nontheless, putting out a pretty solid, though unspectacular package. Where are they now? still the laughing stock of most middle/upper middle class folks.

InfiniteNothing
06-12-2005, 12:15 PM
So are you agreeing or disagreeing with us...

I think you are trying to agree... since I clearly stated that people are turned off before they even take it out for a test drive.

Honestly, I've always had American cars (unless you wanna count my '89 Probe as a "Mazda" hybrid). My Brother always buys Nissans (Maximas)... So far I haven't bought into the "American made cars are crap" line... however I have realized that some "American Car Companies" take us customers for granted and don't deserve our support (and I'm sure I don't have to re-iterate who I am talkin' about here...)

I'm still driving an "American made" vehicle... even if it is infused with German technology. :heh:

I'm agreeing, I just think that 75% of it is out of GM's control

DarkFury
06-12-2005, 02:51 PM
so now.... instead of putting out a decent product that is no worse than a japanese product, they have to wow you, and give it to you for cheap. hmmm, sounds familiar. Hyundai's been trying to do this for the past few years. the wow factor being 10year warranty (not the car), but nontheless, putting out a pretty solid, though unspectacular package. Where are they now? still the laughing stock of most middle/upper middle class folks.
For Hyundai... that's not a "WoW factor"... that's a BRIBE. :heh:


For American cars... the thing is that they have to get back to the basics of what people want in their cars. For most of us that is reliability (which they have been working on...and are close to achieving in some aspects), styling (where some are hit or miss), and price (which used to be their "defining" benefit in the past).


Now... if they want to price their competing products without adjusting the other 2 variables then yes... it is gonna be a "hard sell" to some folks. Also... as I have stated again and again, CUSTOMER SERVICE is a big part of this. The sale is not over when the car rolls off the lot. If it EVER is gonna be in need of repair (which ALL man made goods will eventually need one way or another) then treat your customers RIGHT and make them feel that they value you and your product. This is probably the biggest MISS of some American automotive companies.

Honestly, this would go a long way into regaining customer loyalty... but for all I know, it "costs them too much" to do this. Therefore, they'd rather take the chance of losing us as customers rather than build those relationships from my opinion.

On a side note... yes, I may joke around "Hemi Hemi Hemi", but honestly, if you EVER have a problem with any Dodge/Chrysler dealership then you can call the DC Corporate Hotline and get some real attention to your case. Case in point... the dealer that I had a problem with on the paint of my Dakota (which I didn't buy new... but still had issues) lost their 5 star rating and eventually got taken over by corporate and re-structured (almost everyone was released and a new staff took over). Now... there aren't problems like that anymore there. Pretty much, the DC dealerships know that customer complaints are not gonna be tolerated by corporate so they go that extra mile to make sure that you are happy (within reason of course) so that you don't go complaining to corporate. Maybe FURD and GM should take this approach as well... so far, it seems to work at DC (as far as my experience with them goes).

johnnymk
06-12-2005, 03:11 PM
Well, I read that SUVs and large pickups were responsible for a large percentage of their yearly profit, something like up to $10,000? per vehicle as opposed to a few hundred dollars for small cars.

With the demand decreasing for gas guzzlers, it wouldn't take very many lost sales for any of these car companies to rapidly lose money. And it does take time and money to gear up for fuel miser vehicles. It can't happen overnight.

Eugene
06-12-2005, 05:25 PM
So, eugene, do you love imports?...
so now.... instead of putting out a decent product that is no worse than a japanese product, they have to wow you, and give it to you for cheap. hmmm, sounds familiar. Hyundai's been trying to do this for the past few years. the wow factor being 10year warranty (not the car), but nontheless, putting out a pretty solid, though unspectacular package. Where are they now? still the laughing stock of most middle/upper middle class folks.
Hi, my name is Eugene, and I love imports. :P So in my case (and proably other ppl's too) yes, there is a bias, however unfair, against GM and other domestic car companies.

As for the "wow requirement," that may be true, but I think a lot of the reason why I don't really consider domestic cars is a lot of them don't "fit" me. They seem to cater to different tastes and preferences. Do they care about the people who are more into WRC than NASCAR? Or that I'd rather be better at turning on a dime than drag race? Pontiac comes to mind...and the answer seems like a no.

And really, customers are difficult to change. It takes a lot of investment to win them over and only a small slip along the way to lose them. That is a fact of life and somewhere along the road, every company needs to bite the bullet and make it happen. I hope GM does, for the sake of our nation's economy and to get nice, solid domestic cars out into the marketplace. I'm certainly not against good economy or giving imports a good run for their money. we would all benefit. And I think hyundai has done an awesome job getting their act together, reliability-wise... they somehow proved it to the world they could make solid cars (not being sarcastic, I really don't know what steps they took to get there). Watch out once they nail down style and performance. I think it can be done for GM too, but I doubt it'll be easy.

attgig
06-13-2005, 06:17 AM
For Hyundai... that's not a "WoW factor"... that's a BRIBE. :heh:


For American cars... the thing is that they have to get back to the basics of what people want in their cars. For most of us that is reliability (which they have been working on...and are close to achieving in some aspects), styling (where some are hit or miss), and price (which used to be their "defining" benefit in the past).


Now... if they want to price their competing products without adjusting the other 2 variables then yes... it is gonna be a "hard sell" to some folks. Also... as I have stated again and again, CUSTOMER SERVICE is a big part of this. The sale is not over when the car rolls off the lot. If it EVER is gonna be in need of repair (which ALL man made goods will eventually need one way or another) then treat your customers RIGHT and make them feel that they value you and your product. This is probably the biggest MISS of some American automotive companies.

Honestly, this would go a long way into regaining customer loyalty... but for all I know, it "costs them too much" to do this. Therefore, they'd rather take the chance of losing us as customers rather than build those relationships from my opinion.

On a side note... yes, I may joke around "Hemi Hemi Hemi", but honestly, if you EVER have a problem with any Dodge/Chrysler dealership then you can call the DC Corporate Hotline and get some real attention to your case. Case in point... the dealer that I had a problem with on the paint of my Dakota (which I didn't buy new... but still had issues) lost their 5 star rating and eventually got taken over by corporate and re-structured (almost everyone was released and a new staff took over). Now... there aren't problems like that anymore there. Pretty much, the DC dealerships know that customer complaints are not gonna be tolerated by corporate so they go that extra mile to make sure that you are happy (within reason of course) so that you don't go complaining to corporate. Maybe FURD and GM should take this approach as well... so far, it seems to work at DC (as far as my experience with them goes).


reliability/styling/price. then, why is hyundai a tough sell? reliability has shown through (consumer reports most reliable car with a huge waranty), styling is no different from honda...all they do is copy them, price - stinkin cheapest cars on the road.

anyways, i digress.

as for american cars, I took my car to a GM dealership almost couple years ago now, and they were practically begging me to send in a positive feedback card to corporate - i'm guessing because of a similar situation that you talked of with DC. yes, they are accountable to what they do - but for the most part, i feel the service that you receive from the dealerships are dependent on, well. the dealership. not the corporation as a whole.

Merlin
06-13-2005, 07:42 AM
Good article but clearly lacking in one of its main foundations. The owners of these foreign companies, like American ones, are the shareholders. That is BMW and Toyota are owned by shareholders just like Ford and GM are. These shareholders can be anywhere. I work for an investment management company and we hold the stock of many non-US based auto companies. So to say the profits go to the owners and they are over seas is not entirely true. Share holding in these companies is cross boarder and global.

Aside from that I drive a German car made in South Carolina. If I were to get a new car I would look really hard at the Lotus Elise although the new Solstace (I think that was the name) would get a look. As for American cars...I'd love to get an old Jeep Wrangler to have as a kick around/fun car.


reliability/styling/price. then, why is hyundai a tough sell?
Because a reputation takes a long time to build and even longer time to repair. You want proof of that just ask DarkFury when he'll buy his next product from D-Link. :hehehmm:

DarkFury
06-13-2005, 07:45 AM
reliability/styling/price. then, why is hyundai a tough sell? reliability has shown through (consumer reports most reliable car with a huge waranty), styling is no different from honda...all they do is copy them, price - stinkin cheapest cars on the road.

anyways, i digress.

as for american cars, I took my car to a GM dealership almost couple years ago now, and they were practically begging me to send in a positive feedback card to corporate - i'm guessing because of a similar situation that you talked of with DC. yes, they are accountable to what they do - but for the most part, i feel the service that you receive from the dealerships are dependent on, well. the dealership. not the corporation as a whole.
"Perceived cheapness" is why hyundai has been a tough sell...

They are going through the same thing that Nissan (Datsun), Toyota, and Honda went through in the 70s... perceived as "junk" until they built a rep. Maybe in 10 - 15 years Hyundai will be up there... but honestly, the visions of the "Excel" still haven't faded...

/me flashes back to the joke on the Def Comedy Jam about 4 Fat Women going downhill in a Hyundai... to go fast. :heh:

As far as styling goes... yes.. they do "copy" the styles of other cars... but honestly, something just doesn't "look right" about them. :shrug: I'm just not diggin' them...

As far as dealerships go... for FURD, I've been to enough of them in various cities/states to get a general feel for their "corporate environment and attitude". Honestly, the service I've generally received from them has sucked from the South all the way up to Upper Michigan. Pretty much, they have policies in place that shift the blame and they are so "half assed" at fixing problems... Too many times I've had to go in multiple times to fix the same thing over and over waiting for them to get it right.



Because a reputation takes a long time to build and even longer time to repair. You want proof of that just ask DarkFury when he'll buy his next product from D-Link. :hehehmm:
Dayuum skippy...

And pretty much, I'd switch to AMD (gasp :eek: ) or Apple (/me passes out :dead: ) before I'll use another D-Link product in my personal home network... :2far: :heh:

Cubsfan
06-13-2005, 07:51 AM
I just bought a new "family sedan", and to be honest, I didn't drive one American car. I looked at them, but like DF said, they kind of left me feeling 'blah'. Taurus, G6, etc... just weren't that good. I will add, however, that their reputation for reliability (or lack of) was somewhat of a factor. I looked at Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, and Honda mostly.

Another factor that didn't set well with me is the apparent devaluation of American cars. With all of the rebates and special pricing they offer, it seems like the resale values really tank. So far, the Asian manufacturers don't seem to have that problem (or at least it is nowhere as severe)

DarkFury
06-13-2005, 07:52 AM
Another factor that didn't set well with me is the apparent devaluation of American cars. With all of the rebates and special pricing they offer, it seems like the resale values really tank. So far, the Asian manufacturers don't seem to have that problem (or at least it is nowhere as severe)
If you plan to keep the car for the long haul... resale value really isn't a factor/issue.

I could care less about resale value as long as the car still runs good well past the days when the warranty runs out. :D

attgig
06-13-2005, 10:46 AM
I just bought a new "family sedan", and to be honest, I didn't drive one American car. I looked at them, but like DF said, they kind of left me feeling 'blah'. Taurus, G6, etc... just weren't that good.

so, can i ask what you ended up buying?

Cubsfan
06-13-2005, 10:50 AM
so, can i ask what you ended up buying?
Nissan Altima. For me, was the intersection of price, performance, reliability, and 'style'.

As far as for American cars, none came close to the style. While some may have had decent reliabilty, the reputation wasn't there like it was with Toyota, Nissan, and Honda. Performance was better than most other 4-cyl cars (175 HP), and price was in line with all of the other cars.

cheapie
06-13-2005, 11:01 AM
there's no way i'll let myself be cajoled into buying a domestic car because of patriotism. that will just subsidize their inneficiency and lack of imagination. don't treat your suppliers like ****, don't build iterations of the same POS and call it new, and don't employ one of the most overpaid, underworked, overpriviledged workforces in the nation and i'll choose your products....if i like them.

LegendKiller
06-13-2005, 12:21 PM
When it comes to cars I am going to buy the safest, most reliable, and best deal for my money. This excludes most domestic cars, althlough I am looking at some of the newer ones.

One thing that I laugh at is GM saying they are the most popular or have the "best selling this or that in this or that category". Well crap, when Budget and Avis are buying lots of 1000 cars at a time, you will be the highest seller. Doesn't mean squat though.

Which goes to Cubs point. With GM and Furd being so heavy in the rental areas their car values are a lot lower since off-rental vehicles sell at a discount and flood the aftermarket.

bachviet
06-13-2005, 12:31 PM
Safety is most important factor when I buy a car. That's why I own Hondas because most if not all of their cars/SUVs/vans have high rating in safety. And they also last pretty long also. By 2006/2007, all Hondas will have side curtain airbags as standard features.

cheapie
06-13-2005, 12:37 PM
funny...that's one thing that i didn't like about buying a honda. couldn't get a civic here in michigan w/abs which is absolutely stupid. of course, this was in 2001 or so.

attgig
06-13-2005, 01:54 PM
there's no way i'll let myself be cajoled into buying a domestic car because of patriotism. that will just subsidize their inneficiency and lack of imagination. don't treat your suppliers like ****, don't build iterations of the same POS and call it new, and don't employ one of the most overpaid, underworked, overpriviledged workforces in the nation and i'll choose your products....if i like them.


yeah, but...has any of them overseas manufacturers even contacted your company about using your trannys?

$$ + some pain in the @$$ people
or no $$....

hmmmmm

styleee
06-13-2005, 04:33 PM
i would just like to say that everyone forgets that Saturn is GM. And saturns really are different! just look at the saturn sky that is being released in a few months! its going to be a WOW car for about 25K.

and i think my ion is pretty sporty, it is bigger and faster than many of its competitors. AND yes, it is not the best thing in the world, i know! the doors have to be slammed, my dashboard could fit together better, and the inside could be a little more refined but you know what? IT WAS CHEAP :) it runs well and is safe.

:)

btw i had 4 german cars and a volvo before i got a saturn, and a car is a car and i would prefer it not to be a money pit. :O

DarkFury
06-13-2005, 08:39 PM
Saturns were designed to be GM's answer to the imports...

However... they have gotten the image of being the "Girly car" (just like the Pontiac G6).

Until recently, most Saturns were too small for most big people to sit in comfortably. DFJ's momma drives a Saturn ION, and honestly, I hate riding in it. I swear... I feel like I am wearing that dayuum car when I drive it.

Pretty much, if GM had merged some of the neat tech of the Saturn (i.e. "dent resistant panels) with the Olds line (giving them a true "Midsize/Fullsize" option), then maybe it coulda survived. At least I woulda kept it over the Buick line had they done that...

cheapie
06-13-2005, 09:05 PM
yeah, but...has any of them overseas manufacturers even contacted your company about using your trannys?

$$ + some pain in the @$$ people
or no $$....

hmmmmm

we are a tier one supplier to all of the major oems. the HD division i work for does just a little bit of business w/gm and ford. however, the automotive group does a ton more. i think they are a $1 billion+ customer. ford is right up there also.

Merlin
06-14-2005, 04:51 AM
from generally talking with people & here (as infinite pointed out), people just like japanese cars, and japanese car makers
Not me. I really don't like most of the Japanese cars out there. As far as I'm concerned the cars should be European. BMW, Saab, Audi, Volvo, VW, etc. Now those are nice cars and when you drive them they really do feel more like finely engineered machines. Without a doubt the Europeans know what the driving experience should feel like. If only the rest of the world got the point. The Japanese cars make for good reliable transportation from a to b. If that is enough for you fine - I want more.



AND yes, it is not the best thing in the world, i know! the doors have to be slammed, my dashboard could fit together better, and the inside could be a little more refined but you know what? IT WAS CHEAP :) it runs well and is safe.

In this day and age things can be made for a good price and still fit together properly.

attgig
06-14-2005, 07:18 AM
Pretty much, if GM had merged some of the neat tech of the Saturn (i.e. "dent resistant panels) with the Olds line (giving them a true "Midsize/Fullsize" option), then maybe it coulda survived. At least I woulda kept it over the Buick line had they done that...


olds was destined to die just because of the name. I had bought an olds alero over the buick century/pontiac grand am, because well...it looked better than the other two. when they were being terminated, every single car magazine's commentary was that GM was eliminating its best car lineup.... pretty disappointing. only if one of the other brands just dropped all of their cars, and just picked up the olds lineup.

attgig
06-14-2005, 07:24 AM
As far as I'm concerned the cars should be European. BMW, Saab, Audi, Volvo, VW, etc.

saab = american ;)

Jeffbx
06-14-2005, 09:08 AM
Audi & VW = quality problems

hapoo
06-14-2005, 10:18 AM
from generally talking with people & here (as infinite pointed out), people just like japanese cars, and japanese car makers


If i had the choice, i wouldn't touch a japanese car with a 10 foot pole. I'd take a car from europe anyday. Sure they may not be as reliable, but they're fun to drive, wrap around you, and feel smoother to me.

Jihforce
06-14-2005, 10:46 AM
People buy cars because they like them, styling, driving experience, space, power, you name it. I think the article was pretty good, however, I'm not compelled to go out and buy an american car just because of it. After all, it is my hard earned money we're talking about. I'm the one stuck with the payments, so this whole "patriotic" approach to cut GM some slack is wasted on me.
I've had bad experiences with american cars, euro cars and japanese cars. More so with american and german cars tho. As for korean cars, sorry, hyundai will need to spend the next 20-30 years showing me they aren't cheap in order for me to buy them. Thing that scares me about automakers is all the recalls they get on a regular basis. Are they putting any effort in designing these cars to be safer or what?

In the end, its still comes down to how much i can afford, which car drives best, what i need and whatever other economic factors that come to play. My lease on my Audi is up in 2 years, and I cannot wait, because that is the last time i'm driving a VW/Audi.