Timeshares

[brainsmile]

Worth it or not?

I was thinking of getting one. Which one is best? How many credits?

[LegendKiller]

Currently the largest network is Fairfield. They have some good resorts, including Grand Desert in Vegas, Bonnet Creek in the middle of Disney land in Orlando, Kona Hawaiian village, a really nice atlantic city resort. The credits are fungible with RCI.

Marriot has some awesome resorts but they are dang expensive and don't have that wide of a network.

The point amounts are really different between different companies. 165,000 points in Fairfield will get you a week in Grand Desert. 60,000 points will get you a week in any Trendwest resort.

I could hook you up and avoid the craptastical sales people ;).

There are a couple of things to consider. Do you like vacationing at places or driving around? Do you have the money to mostly pay for it or refinance it quickly (Average interest rate is ~11% for Marriot, 13% for Fairfield, 14% for trendwest, higher for Starwood...etc)?

I know many people who are more than happy with their TS, it just depends on how you vacation. As long as you go to a Marriot, Fairfield/Trendwest (Owned by Cendant, who I work for), Starwood, you will be OK. Try to avoid the mom and pop shops, they are the ones who gave the business a bad name.

Make sure you know what you are getting into. Some TS' are perpetuities, you can pass them on forever. Others, such as Disney, are right to use that only last for maybe 20 years, or much less. Fairfield/TW and most marriot are perpetuity.
LK

[faither]

We've had the Disney Vacation Club for about the past five years and have been very happy with it. You purchase points rather than a week and we have enough to stay in a two-bedroom spread at just about any time of the year. The Disney properties are very-well maintained and staying on Disney is great when you're attending the parks or just looking to chill.

[gear02]

Can someone explain timeshares to me in a way that's detailed, easy to understand, and in a manner that's not trying to sell me something? I've believed that they're all ripoffs. How does it work? How much does it cost? Is it cheaper than a hotel? Can you give me an example with figures?

[LegendKiller]

Can someone explain timeshares to me in a way that's detailed, easy to understand, and in a manner that's not trying to sell me something? I've believed that they're all ripoffs. How does it work? How much does it cost? Is it cheaper than a hotel? Can you give me an example with figures?


Ok, the typical Fairfield product brings people in at about 185,000 points at one of our premier resorts, Bonnet Creek, Grand Desert, Atlantic City, New Orleans, Destin, Daytona Beach..etc.

Grand Desert is ~1,000 room (maybe more) place. A good room will have a queen bed, a sofa sleeper, a kitchen, a jacuzzi tub, slate floors, at least 2 TV's. The resort has at least 2 pools, many hot tubs, all of it pretty nice. You "share" that room with other people, much like a hotel.

That contract might cost you $14,000. What you get is that 185,000 points at say Grand Desert, which will get you a prime week. A prime week is any holiday week or prime vacation spot. With that you also get prime reservations at your "home" resort, Grand Desert in this case. Now, you can also take your 185,000 points and go *anywhere* else in the Fairfield Fairshare Plus network.

What that means is you can use your 185k to get two weeks at a less "prime" resort, say, Fairfield Wisconsin Dells or Fairfield Branson, in the middle of the winter (yay, wisconsin dells in the winter...woo).

So, your 185k can buy you almost anything anywhere, provided their is space for you to go into. You could get 4 days at peake season at Bonnet Creek, which has an 18 hole golf course and is in the middle of disney property, the only outside company ever to get there. ( I can provide details on that)

Lets take your $14k, 185k point contract. You can finance it for 7 or 10 years with monthly payments. The typical interest rate offered for a larger contract like that might be 12.99%. Of course if you go on ACH (PAC, auto withdrawl) you get a 1% reduction. Your monthly payment might be $250.

In addition you will have to pay association costs (building maintenance...etc).

Why? Because once Fairfield sells out of the resort, they turn over maintenance to the owner organization and they maintain your buildings, which you pay for. So your monthly payment might be $285 total.

Again, you can go *ANYWHERE* within the network but your points will buy different amounts of time at different resorts.

https://www.fairfieldresorts.com/ffr/resort/search.do

Now, what timeshare was known for before was the fact that you had a *FIXED* week at *ONE* resort for eternity. Now that kinda sucks, you are locked into a vacation forever at one spot. Furthermore, many TS developers would let their resorts go after they sold out, leaving owners with the shaft of having a crappy "forever" vacation spot and a leaky roof.

Furthermore, people used to get the shaft on financing. Timeshare sales people are some of the same people who sell used cars with craptastic financing. Not to mention some sales people would sell their mom to get a sale and they are *very* high pressure in some cases.

However, with the introduction of the points system, you are able to use your points anywhere. You can even trade those points into RCI or II to use worldwide in their timeshare network. Again, your points may only get 2 days at the best resort in the world, it is a relative value.

Larger companies like Cendant or Mariott came in and cleaned up a lot of places and are improving the general impression of the industry as a whole. I have seen the best and worst in timeshare. I have personally been in the industry for 2 years, but on the finance side of it. I deal with taking portfolios of those contracts and "selling" them to bond holders for cash, which we then use to build more resorts. Fannie Mae, GMAC, credit card companies, and others do this, it is called securitization.

As a result of that, I get to learn about all of this stuff. I get to see a birds eye view of how the whole system works.



So what do I think about it? Personally, I like to go anywhere I want on vacation. I don't like to be tied to a network or be tied to a company with restrictions or hassle about points.

However, Fairfield/Marriott/Trendwest/Starwood..etc, have improved that with the points. RCI/II make it even better and allow you to go many places. As a result more people like it. Still, I prefer freedom.

Does it cost as much as a hotel? Well, probably not. The newer resorts are swank, not up to Marriott standards, but that is marriott. Bonnet Creek is absolutely amazing.

Combined FF/TW + Marriot = ~50% of the timeshare market.


That enough info?

[brainsmile]

My friend has trendwest 6,000 points a year 12,000 transferrable and that buys a week a year. He loves it but then I have a friend who bought Marriot and he says it's the quality that makes the difference. Personally I'd love to buy one in Hawaii and just make that my home location.

[LegendKiller]

My friend has trendwest 6,000 points a year 12,000 transferrable and that buys a week a year. He loves it but then I have a friend who bought Marriot and he says it's the quality that makes the difference. Personally I'd love to buy one in Hawaii and just make that my home location.


Marriott is nice, there is no denying it. However, the price range is pretty steep and they don't have nearly as many resorts, I think ~half Fairfield.

[avlena]

Now, what timeshare was known for before was the fact that you had a *FIXED* week at *ONE* resort for eternity. Now that kinda sucks, you are locked into a vacation forever at one spot. Furthermore, many TS developers would let their resorts go after they sold out, leaving owners with the shaft of having a crappy "forever" vacation spot and a leaky roof.


My parents have had a timeshare like this in Minnesota for over 15 years, through RCI. I believe it's been paid off for quite awhile. We could trade our week for other resorts, so when I was younger we traveled all over the country, staying at various resorts in Washington DC, Georgia, California, Vegas, etc. As long as you made the reservations early enough, it was never a problem getting the location you wanted. My dad still has the timeshare, and even bought another through RCA a few years ago. As a wedding present, he got a resort in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, and just had to pay $200 for the trade fee.

I think it's a good idea if you have a family, because it's essentially a forced vacation, and we always had a blast. Of course, I don't know anything about how the financing worked, so maybe it's not worth it in terms of money.

[brainsmile]

I don't want to finance it

[LegendKiller]

If you want I can try to dig up some info on our packages at a couple of the best resorts.

[Jeffbx]

Went to one of the Hyatt properties in Key West one time for their sales pitch... got 3 mights in a $1m condo overlooking the ocean in exchange for listening to their pitch.

Pretty much what I took away from it is if you travel frequently for leisure (like 1-2 weeks at a resort per year), it's a good deal. If you don't, you won't get your $$ out of it.

[WhiskeyPapa]

Before you buy a timeshare (especially if you're paying cash), don't forget to compare the time value of the money. If you invested the cash in good growth stock mutual funds, how much could you net? Add the yearly maintenance fee and you have your true cost of your timeshare week. It'll probably be somewhere around $2k. Then ask yourself if you want to be *forced* to pay $2k for a vacation each year, whether you want it or not.

IMHO, a timeshare can't offer me anything that cash can't do better.

If you're really dead set on buying a timeshare, look on the secondary market first.

[Grimm]

$14,000 in a bond tax free that pays 4% will get you $560 in inerest a year. Buying a timeshare effectively costs you that interest money. You are excanging cash generating principal for cash eating property. Add that to the $400 in maintenance that you pay in a year (you might pay less than that, but special assesments will bring it up). And you are effectively spending $960 a week for a vacation. A transfer typicaly costs around $100 so then you are up to $1060 for vacationing (maybe) where you want to.
A nice room in Las Vegas for a week would cost me about $150 a day, or $1050 a week.

So, here are your options.
A) Buy a timeshare and limit your vacation times and locations.
B) Generate extra income that can be used to vacation anywhere, and keep the principal in case you have a financial emergency.

Financialy, timeshares are a losing proposition. It's better to save and invest the money. The additional income will make up for the "savings" you have from the timeshare. That money can be used that your for a vacation or, reinvested and used for a vacation at a later time.
Many oppertunities for money saving vacations occur that you will not reap the financial benifits from if you have a Timeshare. A week at a neighbor's cabin in the mountains, the family gathering at a campsite, the Cruise paid as a work bonus or as a gift, these things happen. How will you enjoy them if you are spending the money anyway for a hotel room you aren't using? When you sell your points or save them for later and don't use them on something you enjoy, you are losing money on the deal.

In certain, very narrow, situations timeshares can be an economicaly viable option. However, that is only by a small margin and the people who will actualy benifit are few and far between. The lack of liquidity in assets make it not worthwhile even in those minor cases.

The only people who proffit from timeshares are those that sell them.

[LegendKiller]

$14,000 in a bond tax free that pays 4% will get you $560 in inerest a year. Buying a timeshare effectively costs you that interest money. You are excanging cash generating principal for cash eating property. Add that to the $400 in maintenance that you pay in a year (you might pay less than that, but special assesments will bring it up). And you are effectively spending $960 a week for a vacation. A transfer typicaly costs around $100 so then you are up to $1060 for vacationing (maybe) where you want to.
A nice room in Las Vegas for a week would cost me about $150 a day, or $1050 a week.

So, here are your options.
A) Buy a timeshare and limit your vacation times and locations.
B) Generate extra income that can be used to vacation anywhere, and keep the principal in case you have a financial emergency.

Financialy, timeshares are a losing proposition. It's better to save and invest the money. The additional income will make up for the "savings" you have from the timeshare. That money can be used that your for a vacation or, reinvested and used for a vacation at a later time.
Many oppertunities for money saving vacations occur that you will not reap the financial benifits from if you have a Timeshare. A week at a neighbor's cabin in the mountains, the family gathering at a campsite, the Cruise paid as a work bonus or as a gift, these things happen. How will you enjoy them if you are spending the money anyway for a hotel room you aren't using? When you sell your points or save them for later and don't use them on something you enjoy, you are losing money on the deal.

In certain, very narrow, situations timeshares can be an economicaly viable option. However, that is only by a small margin and the people who will actualy benifit are few and far between. The lack of liquidity in assets make it not worthwhile even in those minor cases.

The only people who proffit from timeshares are those that sell them.


The error in your logic is multifaceted.


1. Your hotel room might be booked. A timeshare, especially your home resort, will give you a much better proposition.

2. Your timeshare will not go up in price. Ever try to book a hotel during SEMA, CES, AVN ( :) )?? I did when I went out to vegas the first week in Jan while CES/AVN were going on, room rates were $500/night. Ouch.


3. A timeshare in most companies last *forever*. Not to mention the quality of the resorts are a known quantity, they are prime locations, and they provide many ammenties that a normal hotel room does not. You can pass these on to your grandkids who pass them on to their grandkids and a strong network such as Fairfield or Marriott will always keep growing.

4. Not to mention all of the timeshare rooms have fully furnished full-size kitchens, that right there saves you a bundle o' cash.


5. Bonnet Creek is *ON* Disney property. Not 5 mi or even 1mi away, it is *THERE*, the shuttles stop there and it costs a fraction of a similar disney resort.


What you are essentially doing when you buy a TS is you are paying forward every vacation you will take, your kids will take, and their kids will take. Strong networks such as Marriott or Fairfield, backed by 20bn + parent companies aren't "fly by night" orgs, they are here to stay and will continue to grow.

I think people forget the scope of what a TS provides these days and only concentrates on limited and pre conceived notions based upon past experiences or knowledge.

I know many *VERY* financially savvy people, bankers, rating agency people, and executives that own Marriott, Fairfield, and other smaller exclusive TS' and they love them.


Having your money "tied up" is a foolish notion, sure, time value of money and the possibility of investment in other options aren't that much of an issue here.

I agree with WhiskeyPapa, look to the secondary market where you can get credits are much lower prices. However, do not discount the notion out of hand, look at it critically and take into account all aspects.

Here are some additional statistics from stuff I found.

Timeshare sales were 5.5BN in 2002 in the US, 9.1BN globally

In 2003 over 3MM households owned timeshare

Median age of a timeshare owner is 42

Median income is 80k

30% of owners show interest in upgrading to more time

84% of owners are either very or somewhat satisfied with ownership

avg purchase price was 14,800

Fairfield has 76 resorts in 21 states and the US Virgin Islands, Trendwest has 54 resorts in 12 states.

all of that from the Ragatz survey


As of October 03 RCI has over 3MM exchange members and 3800 resorts world wide.


I am in no way trying to sell you a timeshare. All I am doing is trying to put correct and logical information out there to fight the FUD.


LK

[faither]

When we bought the Disney Vacation Club we did it on the secondary market (saving about 35%-40% from what was the going rate through Disney). They have an extensive network and the ability to use points at a number of really nice hotels, too.

[WhiskeyPapa]

If my parents tried to leave me a timeshare, I would refuse it. If timeshares are so great, why are they harder to get rid of than a case of syphilis?

If I buy a house for $100k, I can generally turn around and sell it the next day for $100k. Not so with a timeshare. If you paid $14k today, I doubt you could give it away the next day.

[LegendKiller]

If my parents tried to leave me a timeshare, I would refuse it. If timeshares are so great, why are they harder to get rid of than a case of syphilis?

If I buy a house for $100k, I can generally turn around and sell it the next day for $100k. Not so with a timeshare. If you paid $14k today, I doubt you could give it away the next day.


So much hating, so little understanding. I guess some people are unwilling to see past their own past experiences.

Did I say he had to buy it new?

[WhiskeyPapa]

Not hating. In fact, I'm the one who said to buy on the secondary market. I'd just rather not be strapped with one, even if it was free (because it's not free - you have to pay a lifetime of maintenance fees.)

There is just something inherently wrong with anything that is nearly impossible to sell.

[brainsmile]

oh I'd definitely purchase on the secondary market. It can't be impossible to sell if I'm buying one :P

[zippyjuan]

I have never checked into them, but I have heard that they are hard to resell for what you put into them. What are the costs compared to just taking a vacation anywhere you want whenever you want? My guss is that would be cheaper and give you much more flexibility.

[brainsmile]

that's what I'm trying to weigh... if you get one it should be in a highly desirable location if you think you're gonna sell later. I was thinking Hawaii or Lake Tahoe or something like that.

[gear02]

How much is the yearly maintenance fee and how hard is it to sell your timeshare?

Right now it sounds like a neat idea to pay in advance for all the hotel rooms you'll use each year...

[Itsme]

I love my Marriott timeshare...have had it now for 15 years. Among the many features mentioned above:

1. If one year I do not want to use the timeshare I can take the points it is worth and use them to reserve a room at any Marriott property around the world.

2. Mine is a two bedroom unit. If I want to I can just use it as a one bedroom as I did this year, and then I can come back later in the year and just use the "locked out" second bedroom (it has some limited cooking facilities, refridge, etc.) so end up with a free second week...two weeks a year.

[krayzie1]

I am interested in TS's also, so Itsme since you have Marriott when you bought your TS how long is the contract? Lifetime? Just curious. How much it cost?

[dsuds]

My personal experience is with BlueGreen Corp., not Fairfield, so here goes...

Upfront costs were about $12k for a week in North Myrtle Beach, SC (Shore Crest). Middle of June, 2 bedroom, Ocean View. On the plus side it is in a very nice location, fairly clean (not 5-stars though), and pretty good amenities. The first year we were there the activities director had worked out package deals on certain days where we could get group rates.... very nice touch and saved us a few bucks. That was the year they sold us. Two years later when we went back the activities person was different and acted like he was doing us a favor by booking ANY reservations at full price!! This guy was a first class jerk.

Now the bad...

Every year you were hounded into going to their sales meeting where they would try to high pressure sell you an upgrade. One salesman kept referring to his dead wife and little kids AS A SALES TECHNIQUE!! At the time we really felt sorry for the guy, but looking back I think what suckers we were.

Maintenance fees of over $500 per year. Add the Bluegreen "Vacation Club" dues & RCI dues and the number rose to more like $700 a year. This is over and above the inital cost.

Availablility of rooms, or lack thereof. Reservations had to be placed 6-12 months before your vacation. 2 of the 3 times we used our timeshare, we had trouble getting a reservation. One of the three times we had to choose an alternate location, Pigeon Forge TN., or not go on vacation at all.

Inability to sell. When my wife lost her job, we made the decision to lose the timeshare as it was $300+ a month that we could no longer afford. I immediately called Bluegreen to see what we could do to cleanly end the loan. They were completely unresponsive and acted like this had never happened before (bull-oney). I then tried to sell it through the channels I could find. Century21, who advertises as the largest timeshare reseller, wanted big money up front before they would even list it (over $500 as I recall). What a ripoff. We eventually had to let it just default as we had no other alternatives. The only good that came about from losing the timeshare was at tax time when I could write it off as a real estate loss, since it was deeded property.

If you could find one at below half of retail it might, I repeat might, be worth the headaches.

[Itsme]

I am interested in TS's also, so Itsme since you have Marriott when you bought your TS how long is the contract? Lifetime? Just curious. How much it cost?

My contract is lifetime. In fact, I have "moved" it into my trust so it goes directly to my daughter when I pass on.

I paid $10K. Prices vary by the resort that you choose to be your home base.
We bought in phase 1 at Desert Springs in Palm Springs. They now have a phase 2, and a phase 3, plus they just built a whole new resort 2 miles away. The demand for Marriott in Palm Springs is very high.

The location is super for us because it is only a 1 1/2 hour drive. So, even when we don't want to fly we can go. For years when we really want to fly somewhere, we do and exchange.

We were in Hawaii last month and took a tour of Marriott's new timeshare there. They wanted $40K for a one bedroom and $50K for a two bedroom...and they were very small in square feet, and phase 1 was already sold out.

Marriott is opening up a new timeshare in Las Vegas...it opens in October of this year...it is right on the strip. We have already done an exchange and have it for New Year's week. Among the many ammenities...a 42" plasma TV in the living room.

[Itsme]

New Book on Timeshares:

Timeshare Vacations For Dummies, 1st Edition

Timeshare Vacations For Dummies is new guide to timeshare vacations for the 3 million North Americans who own timeshares around the world and the 210,000 (7%) more who buy them each year. There are 5,425 timeshare resorts in the world, 1,590 of them in the U.S. Timeshares are a natural subject for a Dummies book, because the process can be confusing, even threatening, and people need help steering safely through the shoals. The guide answers questions from both existing timeshare owners and those who are considering buying one––what are the smartest ways to buy and sell; are timeshares a wise investment; how do owners find the best swaps; which resorts and destinations offer the best deal for your money, interests and schedule, both domestically and abroad.

[mrmb123]

If you really must buy one do not buy one from the sales people at the resorts, Find a resort you like and ask who is the president of the board. If you contact them many times they have foreclosure units that they will sell you much cheaper than the going prices. My father-in-Law was on the board of one of his and I bought a marriott resort timeshare for the back maint fees of $1250 at a 5* resort. That is the only way they are worth it. And plan on never selling it because there is almost no resale.

[brainsmile]

nice suggestion mrmb123

[Grimm]

The error in your logic is multifaceted.
You accuse me of being illogical and then fail to address any of my points directly? That is, at best, inappropriate.



1. Your hotel room might be booked. A timeshare, especially your home resort, will give you a much better proposition.

This isn't logic, it is supposition and opinion. Guess what? You're timeshare exchange probably will be booked unles you make the excange more than 6 months in advance, sometimes a year in advance for highly desirable locations. If you just want to stay at your TS on the time you own you won't be able to submit it for exchange. That means inflexable plans.


2. Your timeshare will not go up in price. Ever try to book a hotel during SEMA, CES, AVN ( :) )?? I did when I went out to vegas the first week in Jan while CES/AVN were going on, room rates were $500/night. Ouch.

That statement is very misleading. Your TS will cost you more as time goes on, even if maintenance fees are locked in. You will have more and higher assesments as the property ages. Even locked in fees can go up when there is insuficent funds to maitain the proprerty.


3. A timeshare in most companies last *forever*. Not to mention the quality of the resorts are a known quantity, they are prime locations, and they provide many ammenties that a normal hotel room does not. You can pass these on to your grandkids who pass them on to their grandkids and a strong network such as Fairfield or Marriott will always keep growing.
Nothing is forever. If a project falls into disrepair it can go belly up and be bought out by a majority and resold for redevelopment. It only taked one judge to determine that the contract isn't in the majority's best interest and invalitade any clauses restricting sale. Plus, there was the recent Supreme Court Decision allowing the taking of private property for comercial use when it is in the public good. Older TS are a prime candidate for this, they are in prime locations and not generating much tax revinue. Timeshares age and become less attractive over time.


4. Not to mention all of the timeshare rooms have fully furnished full-size kitchens, that right there saves you a bundle o' cash.
I have been in dozens of timeshares on vacation... who uses the kitchen to cook while on vacation??? We ate out.


5. Bonnet Creek is *ON* Disney property. Not 5 mi or even 1mi away, it is *THERE*, the shuttles stop there and it costs a fraction of a similar disney resort.
Disney TS are not forever, they are for 20 years. So the long term ownership is not here. What you are esentialy doing is renting a hotel room in advance for 20 years. It might be cheaper... but who wants to go to Disney land every year for 20 years??? After 20 years all you have are some photos and old mouse ear hats stuck up in a box in the attic.
You don't need to stay right on top of the park to enjoy it. THere is a lot to do in the area. Why be stuck at one park? Get a real room and have a real vactaion, not the (expensive) Disney version of one.


What you are essentially doing when you buy a TS is you are paying forward every vacation you will take, your kids will take, and their kids will take. Strong networks such as Marriott or Fairfield, backed by 20bn + parent companies aren't "fly by night" orgs, they are here to stay and will continue to grow.
The best vacation I ever had was one that I didn't plan on takeing until a month before it happened. It involved moving around and staying at different hotels and being flexable and not knowing for sure where I would be staying next.
Vacations are supposed to be a break from the scheduled pace of our lives, not a continuation of it. Sure some planning is neccisary, but the restricions imposed by a TS are simply not worth it for me, or anyone who I know.

A TS might be great for a small business owner who needs to attend a convention held at the same time every year in the same place. Or for someone who wants to visit a family every year over Thanksgiving/Christmas/Anual Reunion. But for the great majority of persons purchasing thes TS it is a financial mistake.
It's like a car company selling everyone a big SUV. They are great vehicals for those that need them, but most people who buy them don't. They pay more for the car, the interest on the loan, for maintenance and fuel than they should if they had purchased a more appropriate vehical for their lifestyle.
Timeshares are a great idea, but they are overmarketed and the wrong people are buying them for the wrong reasons.

[surfer]

I have a timeshare with Trendwest. I got it 2 years ago. I think it was $8000 for 6000 credits per year. I have been to Las Vegas, did an exchange to stay at the San Francisco Hyatt, and Monterrey. I love it so far. It forces me to go on vacation every year and the places I stayed at are really nice.

After I retire and have more spare time the bonus time deals sound really good.

Anybody know what the difference between Trendwest and Fairfield are?

[LegendKiller]

Trendwest resorts are usually a drive-to "hub and spoke" system where you have smaller resorts closer to the cities in the northwest, as you know.

Fairfield resorts are what they call "Destination resorts". The locations are a bit more dispersed and center around attractions like Vegas, Disney, Branson, Atlantic City, New Orleans, Hawaii, Virgin Islands, Daytona, Fort Lauderdale, Destin..etc...

FF resorts are usually a bit higher quality, but they also cost more per point.


I just realized I am starting to sound like a salesman...ugh!

[LegendKiller]

You accuse me of being illogical and then fail to address any of my points directly? That is, at best, inappropriate.


This isn't logic, it is supposition and opinion. Guess what? You're timeshare exchange probably will be booked unles you make the excange more than 6 months in advance, sometimes a year in advance for highly desirable locations. If you just want to stay at your TS on the time you own you won't be able to submit it for exchange. That means inflexable plans.


Depending on where you are trying to book. If your home resort is in the best resort you get prime reservations even 3 months out. As with any good hotel, if you want a room you need to pre-book.



That statement is very misleading. Your TS will cost you more as time goes on, even if maintenance fees are locked in. You will have more and higher assesments as the property ages. Even locked in fees can go up when there is insuficent funds to maitain the proprerty.


How will it cost you more as time goes on? The maintenance and association fees are written into the contract, it is impossible to change them. If you did you would have to change more than 1,000 documents or even open up a larger recission period. Not likely and you are probably going off of old or different data than 50% of the timeshare market.



Nothing is forever. If a project falls into disrepair it can go belly up and be bought out by a majority and resold for redevelopment. It only taked one judge to determine that the contract isn't in the majority's best interest and invalitade any clauses restricting sale. Plus, there was the recent Supreme Court Decision allowing the taking of private property for comercial use when it is in the public good. Older TS are a prime candidate for this, they are in prime locations and not generating much tax revinue. Timeshares age and become less attractive over time.


Yes, older resorts are prone to less desirable accomodations, so are houses or anything else. However, they are still sold (trust me, I see them all of the time), many companies buy up 10-15 fixed weeks to flip them for points or give them away to employees.

The supreme court decision for this would be extremely complicated. You are applying a gross law with little or no education on the topic. Even the smallest Fairfield resort has more than 1,000 members, that means 1,000 people's documents, loans, contracts, point contracts, and hundreds of legal documents would be rescinded. That would mean millions of dollars in losses to Cendant. The SCOTUS decision isn't going to affect a fortune 50 company, I can assure you. Even smaller players wouldn't feel this effect. There are still commercial property taxes paid on the resorts and that is big bux. Lastly, they are not located in distressed areas (mostly) which are most prone to be affected by the decision.



I have been in dozens of timeshares on vacation... who uses the kitchen to cook while on vacation??? We ate out.



Let me remind you...

"This isn't logic, it is supposition and opinion"

Not everybody is you. When I went on trips with my parents we often cooked.



Disney TS are not forever, they are for 20 years. So the long term ownership is not here. What you are esentialy doing is renting a hotel room in advance for 20 years. It might be cheaper... but who wants to go to Disney land every year for 20 years??? After 20 years all you have are some photos and old mouse ear hats stuck up in a box in the attic.
You don't need to stay right on top of the park to enjoy it. THere is a lot to do in the area. Why be stuck at one park? Get a real room and have a real vactaion, not the (expensive) Disney version of one.


Which I stated above. Fairfield Bonnet Creek is *ON* (more accurately within) Disney property. *ALL* Trendwest and Fairfield property is perpetuity membership within the club. You are involving yourself forever in the club with access to any resort in the club. Let me repeat this *FOREVER*, unlike disney.

Furthermore, people go back to disney many times. I forgot the statistic, but there is something like an 60% chance of repeat visits to disney. Look at Faither. You are making suppositions and anecdotal statements again. Numbers back me up.




The best vacation I ever had was one that I didn't plan on takeing until a month before it happened. It involved moving around and staying at different hotels and being flexable and not knowing for sure where I would be staying next.
Vacations are supposed to be a break from the scheduled pace of our lives, not a continuation of it. Sure some planning is neccisary, but the restricions imposed by a TS are simply not worth it for me, or anyone who I know.


That is *YOU*. I plan my vacation at least a year ahead, as do many people I know. Obviously people do like TS and planning ahead, else there'd not be a market. Blanket statements condemning TS are silly.




A TS might be great for a small business owner who needs to attend a convention held at the same time every year in the same place. Or for someone who wants to visit a family every year over Thanksgiving/Christmas/Anual Reunion. But for the great majority of persons purchasing thes TS it is a financial mistake.
It's like a car company selling everyone a big SUV. They are great vehicals for those that need them, but most people who buy them don't. They pay more for the car, the interest on the loan, for maintenance and fuel than they should if they had purchased a more appropriate vehical for their lifestyle.
Timeshares are a great idea, but they are overmarketed and the wrong people are buying them for the wrong reasons.

Again, if they are wrong for everybody then why are more than 84% of people happy with them? If they are a huge finanancial mistake for most people then why are default rates lower than most cars?

If they are so wrong, then why do more than 75% of people keep their contracts for 5+ years? Yes, I *KNOW* they do because I can track more than 500,000 members over the past 20 years.

Again, you use supposition, anecdotal evidence, pre conceived notions, half truths, and outright wrong or *NO* data to back up your numbers.

[Grimm]

Again, if they are wrong for everybody then why are more than 84% of people happy with them? If they are a huge finanancial mistake for most people then why are default rates lower than most cars?

If they are so wrong, then why do more than 75% of people keep their contracts for 5+ years? Yes, I *KNOW* they do because I can track more than 500,000 members over the past 20 years.

Again, you use supposition, anecdotal evidence, pre conceived notions, half truths, and outright wrong or *NO* data to back up your numbers.
84% of people say they are happy... as if they would admit they made a $15,000 mistake.
Default rates would be lower because they are cheaper than cars, and I would imagine the people selling them were a bit more selective in chosing their customers than car salesmen.

Is that 75% of all timeshares kept for 5+ years, or just your companies? Some timeshares are much better than others. But, why do people stay in them for 5+ years? Well, one opinion might be they are happy with them. Another is that they don't start to regret their purchase for 5 years or so. Yet another might be that it takes them years to finaly seel it for a price they are willing to accept. What is the % of contracts kept 10+ years?

I use personal experience on which to base my opinions. First hand experience and second from my family members. I respectfully disagree with the opinion that I use half truths and pre-conceived notions. If my personal experiences are "outright wrong" then you have only the members of your industry that I have been exposed to to blame for that.
My experience consists of lying high pressure salesmen, misrepresented "gifts", bad math showing falsely that the investment was worthwhile, properties that were run down within a few years of purchase (my parents made the purchases, I learned not to believe a salesman until I had verified it myself), a huge loss in value to the properties, assesments greatly inflating the maintenance costs, and not being able to sell the timeshares for even 1/2 what they were purchased for.

Perhaps the 10 or so timeshares and sales pitches I was exposed to were all exceptions to the rule. But I am going to go with what I know to be true, real and verifiable with the information that I have. Numbers are all well and good, so long as they show some relavance to real life.

[surfer]

Trendwest resorts are usually a drive-to "hub and spoke" system where you have smaller resorts closer to the cities in the northwest, as you know.

Fairfield resorts are what they call "Destination resorts". The locations are a bit more dispersed and center around attractions like Vegas, Disney, Branson, Atlantic City, New Orleans, Hawaii, Virgin Islands, Daytona, Fort Lauderdale, Destin..etc...

FF resorts are usually a bit higher quality, but they also cost more per point.


I just realized I am starting to sound like a salesman...ugh!


What kinda things make FF resorts higher quality? I was impressed by how nice the new Trendwest resort in Vegas was. I also noticed there was a Fairfield resort across the street.

If FF resorts are destination resorts then I think Trendwest is copying that strategy. Trendwest seems to be opening a bunch of destination resorts. Like I'm going to the one next to Disney World in October and they have new resorts next to Disneyland and in downtown San Francisco.

Is working for FF cool? You get to stay for free anywhere you want?

[surfer]

How will it cost you more as time goes on? The maintenance and association fees are written into the contract, it is impossible to change them. If you did you would have to change more than 1,000 documents or even open up a larger recission period. Not likely and you are probably going off of old or different data than 50% of the timeshare market.



Are you sure the association fees can't be changed? With my condo association when the association spends too much money fixing stuff the board votes to up the fees then everybody gets a higher bill a month or two later.

[Grimm]

How will it cost you more as time goes on? The maintenance and association fees are written into the contract, it is impossible to change them. If you did you would have to change more than 1,000 documents or even open up a larger recission period. Not likely and you are probably going off of old or different data than 50% of the timeshare market.
Assesments. All contracts allow for assesments to cover additional costs. When they yearly cost of maintenance goes over the maintance fees they can asses for the difference.

[LegendKiller]

What kinda things make FF resorts higher quality? I was impressed by how nice the new Trendwest resort in Vegas was. I also noticed there was a Fairfield resort across the street.

If FF resorts are destination resorts then I think Trendwest is copying that strategy. Trendwest seems to be opening a bunch of destination resorts. Like I'm going to the one next to Disney World in October and they have new resorts next to Disneyland and in downtown San Francisco.

Is working for FF cool? You get to stay for free anywhere you want?


Naturally TW is going to be following a FF model, they are owned by the same company and now the CEO of Cendant-TRG controls both brands directly.

Fairfield Grand Desert is pretty nice, slate floors, decent quality furniture, large beds , huge bathtub and shower (seperate), coupla TV's, nice dining set...etc. I was actually pretty impressed since it was the first time I had been to one of our resorts.

Working for Cendant-TRG is great. I don't personally have much interaction with the sales force and most of my knowledge comes from talking to the bankers, agencies, and investors during meetings. I have learned a lot from my boss, who is as good as they get.

The company as a whole is great, as far as what I see. They have a definite plan of what is going to happen and how to get there. I know most of the strategic thinkers and they are pretty sharp.

I have only stayed at Destin and Grand Desert, we get greatly reduced rates through employee discount programs. However, our reservation times are 2 weeks or so.

Maintenance will always be important, it is a natural aspect of owning anything. Older cars cost more to maintain but that doesn't make them crap. I drive around a 16 year old Toyota that has cost me a lot over the past two years, but it is a heck of a lot less in insurance, payments, and current funds than buying a new car. So yes, they will probably raise fees somewhat, but nothing aggregious.

As with anything you are going into for a long term purchase you need to think how it fits into your lifestyle. Buying a timeshare is a subjective issue, points trading has made it a lot easier to make the decision, but it is still one that needs to be thought through. I certainly agree that the high pressure sales causes problems, but most people are still satisfied.

Long with anything else in the world you will get people who love or hate it. Grimm thinks one way, I think another. There are a couple people here who love their TS, yet nobody who owns one has said they hate it (or they haven't admitted it yet), so you have to wonder where they are getting their experiences.

Second hand experiences aren't always the best methods for influencing other people's decisions.

[surfer]

What do you do for FF?

[LegendKiller]

I work on the loan portfolio side of the business. We do what is called securitization. When people like you buy a TS from TW or FF it goes into our portfolio. We then take that amount and finance it by selling it to investors. They give us cash in return which we then use to finance more loans, or develop more resorts.The process also lowers how much it costs to borrow, since debt is almost always cheaper than equity.

For example, last May we did our Cendant 2004-1 deal. We sold 392 million of loans to investors and got 335mm in cash. The difference is over collateralization, it protects investors from defaults and lessens risk for them. We do deals every 6 months or so, we are actually in the process of doing one now, perhaps the largest one ever in timeshare. Its pretty cool to know your direct efforts raise hundreds of millions in cash.

So, I am a finance geek in the middle of a timeshare company. Luckily my boss is great. he used to do all of Marriot's securitization deals, raised more than 1BN in cash for them before he left to come here.

You can also do the deals for "gain on sale" where you give the company extra revenue from the sale. They did that at Marriot. There were times when my bosses work and 4 other people contributed ~15% of marriots yearly revenue.

So, I analyze and retrieve all data. Analyze defaults, FICO scores, interest rates, forecast deal, deal performance...lots of fun (and sometimes not so fun) stuff.

[surfer]

Cool! They give you deals on all the cendant stuff or just FF stuff?