Please help design a fast PC for an architecture student!!

[ArkiStan]

Hi, I'm planning to buy a new PC as I enter grad school. I've been out of the computing game for quite a while, so I'd like some tips on some of the latest hardware specs that are available out there.

FYI, I'm an architecture student that will use the PC mostly for HEAVY 3D modeling/rendering and 2D photo editing. I'm not into games, but should be using the internet and watching movies alot, so I would love to be able to hook my TV up as a second display.

Budget : approx. $1,500 (including decent 20 or 21 inch CRT monitor) I'm willing to go over budget a little if deemed highly beneficial.

CPU :
RAM : 2 Gigs (maybe more?)
HDD :
Video :
Sound :
DVD Combo : yes
Monitor : 20 or 21 inch CRT
what else??

Thanks in advance!!

[bachviet]

Get the Dell 9100 on Deals page with the 2.8Ghz dual core CPU upgrade ($100). That brings the total to $749 after MIR.

Upgrade your ram with 2x1GB ($200?)
Upgrade the video card to a X600 or X700 ($120)
Add a 300GB hard drive ($130)
Add a 16x dual layer DVD burner ($50)

The total is $1249 after MIR + tax.

[AlpineJay]

I'm a little torn on the CPU because you specify that graphics is your priority. I don't know if the 64-bit architecture of AMD Athlons will necessarily help you here, because I believe CAD and Photoshop were never written in 64-bit specific stuff. I could be wrong and if I am someone will correct me I'm sure.

Tom's Hardware (http://www23.tomshardware.com/index.html) has a neat little tool that compares the CPU performance head-to-head over specific applications. Checking out the AMD Athlon 64 3500+ (Winchester core - Venice results not available) and P4 660, I saw that AMD trumps Intel on the 3DMark05 graphics benchmark but Intel conversely trumps AMD in 3DMark03 graphics. Obviously there's some give and take here. I've used both brands of comparable performance and have noticed that AMD absolutely sucks at video editing or anything multimedia compared to the Intels (a well-known fact) but I don't know where graphics would fall under - raw performance or multimedia-friendly environment.

RAM probably will be key to your performance in CAD. Get as much as money allows for it - even 2GB and above will serve you well. Any CAS2.5 or under memory will be good - and they're fairly cheap nowadays.

Going back to the CPU, it may be highly beneficial for you to grab the dual-core CPU from either Intel or AMD. Two processors in one means you can do things far faster for CPU demanding applications. I'd also be sure to get a decent vid card (6600GT, 850XL, etc).

DVD burner is a fairly easy choice if you're building your own - grab the NEC-ND3540A or the Pioneer DVR-109. Both are fabulous.

Onboard sound is fine for your needs.

HDD - bigger, the better. HDD can be a serious bottleneck if you use CAD programs. One may consider a 74GB WD Raptor, but that also may be overkill and may not fit your budget. I'll let others chime in for this.

I hope that answers everything.

[kimchicowboy]

my cousin's an architect. she's been using PCs most of her career, but just switched to a mac (a new OSX auto-cad program came out for macs) and SHE LOVES IT! she NEVER wants to go back to a PC for her work ever again.

i can find out what software she uses if you're interested.

[Showtime]

my cousin's an architect. she's been using PCs most of her career, but just switched to a mac (a new OSX auto-cad program came out for macs) and SHE LOVES IT! she NEVER wants to go back to a PC for her work ever again.

i can find out what software she uses if you're interested.

She just likes it better because it is in a cuter package that matches the decor or something. ;)

[shocky123]

Much of the 'computing power' used by Rendering Applications and similar programs is quite heavily system memory bandwidth dependent. Which somewhat explains why Intel tends to pull away in these types of benchmarks. With DDR2 being pretty much Intel exclusive (strictly considering Intel/AMD), much higher memory bandwidth can be obtained via the Intel systems. Xeon's in my opinion being the best at this sort of thing.

..If you're looking at the Dell system mentioned above (Dimension 9100) and are set on at least 2Gb RAM, I would maybe consider leaving it at the 'Free Upgrade' to 1Gb (2x512).
Literally they are charging you $240 for (4x512) .. an extra 2x512 for $240, I dont think you can buy a 1Gb ram kit (non-ecc, etc) that costs that much.

Anyways, I just thought I'd note that it'd be in fact cheaper (by almost $80)
to buy a 2Gb kit and junk the 1Gb that it came with than it would be to upgrade that way.

CPU.. if you're looking for top of the line, I'd say Dual Xeon's, they have incredible streaming(memory) bandwidth (media applications love this).

Dell doesnt offer much for large CRT monitors, I'd say skip a monitor from them and see if you can find one around.
Not that I'm partial to Dell or anything, they just have a wide selection of things. Unless of course you're looking to build one yourself, then stay clear of them.
Dell Dimension 9100.. my thingt @ $1342
CPU: Pentium® D Processor 820 with Dual Core Technology (2.80GHz, 800FSB)
RAM: 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz- 2DIMMs
HDD: 320GB Performance RAID 0 (2 x 160GB SATA HDDs) (raid 0 for high speed)
Optical: Single Drive: 16x DVD+/-RW with double layer write capability
Monitor: 17 inch E773 (16 inch viewable) Conventional CRT (is cheap... look elsewhere for a larger CRT)
GPU: 256MB PCI Express™ x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) nVidia GeForce 6800
Sound: Sound Blaster Audigy™2 ZS (D) Card w/Dolby 5.1, and IEEE 1394


..Is an idea, as always you could likley build a really nice system with probably much better components for less... but, to each their own.
At least w/ a Vendor.. if you're not incredibly computer saavy, you can use their customer support ( which in my opinion.. Dell has great CS, for the most part )

Conclusion..: (finally, yeah, I know)
The category(type of computer) that I think would best suit your specific type of needs would likely be a Workstation, as opposed to a generic desktop, or server for that matter. I would encourage you to at least glance at how some Vendors (Dell/IBM for example) configure and/or part together their workstations, as these tend to be the 'monster' computers needed for modeling/rendering.
/* edit:
Oh yeah, to address the whole MAC/PC issue, I'd personally base my decision for this on support/compatibility of your 'rendering'/CAD programs
Whichever type of computer is better suited (software) for your programs would be a logical decision.
*/

good luck in your search..
*awaits onslaught of anti-Dell-isms*

~Kyle

[SecretIkon]

i'll vote for the dell 9100. can't go wrong with them. you will have money went spent with them.

[ArkiStan]

First of all thanks for everybody's input! :neartears

Many friends who are making a living in CG around me have mentioned that Macs really are more suited for their work. But they're mostly doing 2D desktop publishing. I still know as a fact that a majority of people both in school and in the field still run their 3D apps under windows. I'm not against macs, but I think I'm gonna stick with a PC for compatibility's sake, get feedback from mac users while in school over the 3-year period and consider a switchover when I graduate and need to upgrade again.

And yes, I think I'll be safe sticking with an Intel processor, which gets me thinking......


Get the Dell 9100 on Deals page with the 2.8Ghz dual core CPU upgrade ($100).
How much will I benefit from upgrading to the 2.8 "dual-core" processor? Intuitively, my non-computer-savvy brain thinks "2.8 is lower than 3.0," but there must be something about the "dual-core" that justifies that. :gle:



The category(type of computer) that I think would best suit your specific type of needs would likely be a Workstation, as opposed to a generic desktop, or server for that matter.
If I knew even a smidgen more about computers I would seriously consider that. :throw: Thanks for the idea though!

Also, Shocky, you recommended 320GB Performance RAID 0 (2 x 160GB SATA HDDs) for the HDD. I sorta have an idea of what RAID does. Doesn't it mean that in the end I will have 160MB of space? How much faster is RAID, really?

[ArkiStan]

Going back to the CPU, it may be highly beneficial for you to grab the dual-core CPU from either Intel or AMD. Two processors in one means you can do things far faster for CPU demanding applications. I'd also be sure to get a decent vid card (6600GT, 850XL, etc).
Ok, I guess that answers one of my questions above! :) Any yes, I agree with getting a good video card that suits my computing needs. Do most video cards these days have TV output jacks? Cause I really would like that.

[shocky123]

if you're setup in Raid-1, you have a mirroring setup, which copies one disk to the other, halving your total disk space.
however, raid-0(which is what I mentioned in the earlier post) allows for the data normally sent to one drive to be sent/read to/from two drives instead of one, which can have the ability to get you about ~125-150% boost in performance.

As far as graphics cards, I would say it is pretty much a standard for most cards to have S-Video out.. or another form of tv-out. If you're planning on doing much graphic oriented stuff, you'll be seriously hurting your performance if you go with anything less than probably a 6800. (6800GT works great from what I've heard.. and will take you into the next few years w/out aproblem)

Workstations.... tend to be more application oriented than 'making windows explorer run reallly reallly fast' like desktop systems are setup to do. They tend to have much more powerful components, at the cost of a second pci-express slot.. or similar things.


hopefully that clears up some stuff for you,


~Kyle

[ArkiStan]

For now, here's what I've put together:

Dell Dimension 9100
CPU : Pentium® D Processor 820 with Dual Core Technology (2.80GHz, 800FSB)
RAM : 512MB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz - 2DIMMs - Will buy a 2Gig Kit separately
HDD : 320GB Performance RAID 0 (2 x 160GB SATA HDDs)
DVD : none. Will buy a Pioneer separately
Monitor : 19 inch Ultrasharp™ 1905FP Digital Flat Panel (will use this as a 2nd monitor to the separate CRT I will buy)
Vid : 256MB PCI Express™ x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) nVidia GeForce 6800
Sound : onboard

Price : $1,289

This should give me about $200-300 bucks to find a nice 20-21 inch CRT monitor, 2Gig RAM, and DVD Combo Drive.....ok maybe I'll go over budget just a little. :disa:


if you're setup in Raid-1, you have a mirroring setup, which copies one disk to the other, halving your total disk space.
however, raid-0(which is what I mentioned in the earlier post) allows for the data normally sent to one drive to be sent/read to/from two drives instead of one, which can have the ability to get you about ~125-150% boost in performance.

As far as graphics cards, I would say it is pretty much a standard for most cards to have S-Video out.. or another form of tv-out. If you're planning on doing much graphic oriented stuff, you'll be seriously hurting your performance if you go with anything less than probably a 6800. (6800GT works great from what I've heard.. and will take you into the next few years w/out aproblem)

Workstations.... tend to be more application oriented than 'making windows explorer run reallly reallly fast' like desktop systems are setup to do. They tend to have much more powerful components, at the cost of a second pci-express slot.. or similar things.


hopefully that clears up some stuff for you,


~Kyle
Thanks Shocky.
So I will infact be having the whole 320 gigs, just faster. That's good.

I've never seemed to have a problem with desktop models till now. But if there's a big performance boost with workstations, I'll definitely have to consider that as an option!

[ArkiStan]

Can anybody recommend a good 2Gig RAM set that will fit my needs?

And possibly a good deal on a 20-21 inch CRT monitor?

[kimchicowboy]

why do you want a CRT monitor anyway? 20-21" is gonna be one heavy mother. my 19" CRT is heavy as it is.

[ArkiStan]

why do you want a CRT monitor anyway? 20-21" is gonna be one heavy mother. my 19" CRT is heavy as it is.

It's damn heavy, but when it comes to CG/photo editing, LCD's still lack capacity to accurately display full ranges of color contrast. Most of my work relies heavily on graphics and CRTs are still the way to go. Of course there are very advanced LCD's out there, which come very very close, but not in a student's budget range. :neartears

[Jeffbx]

OK, some pointers from the IT manager at a CAD development shop:

1. Yes, CRT will be better - stick with that. Much more flexibility on colors, resolution, refresh, etc. Check TigerDirect or the Dell refurbs for some cheap choices.

2. Don't bother with RAID0 - you're doubling your chance at a disk failure with little to no performance gain. I would recommend a fast 10k Raptor 73GB drive as your primary (OS & app) drive, with a larger 7200RPM for data. You really can't beat this setup without spending a lot more for SCSI.

3. Macs have practically no software support in the CAD world. Most of the major vendors do not port their software to the Mac platform (which I think is odd, since they would probably handle it very well).

4. Take a good, hard look at the Precision 380... this is a CAD workstation. The biggest difference between this & the 9100 is that you can get this with a CAD optimized video card - a Quadro or a FireGL. This can make a big difference in the performance of your app. Here's what I would recommend:

Get the 380 with the fastest processor you can afford (dual core is nice, but you will do fine with a regular P4 as well)
Get the standard amount of RAM, or MAYBE kick it up to 1GB. Upgrade this later through Crucial - will be cheaper
Buy the best video card you can afford - I'd recommend the FireGL 3100 or the Quadro Fx540
Get whatever optical drives are cheapest, and upgrade/add to these later from Newegg
Get the 80GB 10k RPM drive as your primary disk, and add a second storage disk later

The trick with Dell is that they make most of their profit on the add-on components. Put as much money as you can into the core components that are expensive upgrades (processor & video card), and buy the other stuff after the fact for cheaper.

Hope that helps!

[AlpineJay]

I agree with everything Jeffbx said above. Memory will be cheaper through either Crucial/Newegg/ZipZoomFly so go with that, along with the optical drive. I would however get 1GB RAM with the rig first as to minimize having to swap out modules (I assume Precisions/Dimensions have 4 DIMM banks) because I think you'd eventually wanna hit 2GB.

As I said before the HDD ends up becoming a bottleneck so a Raptor would be an excellent choice - Dell charges you a lot for RAID anywya - coupled with a large SATA/UATA drive for storage.

Hey, Jeffbx is the man who does this day in and day out? How can ya go wrong?

[bachviet]

For now, here's what I've put together:

Dell Dimension 9100
CPU : Pentium® D Processor 820 with Dual Core Technology (2.80GHz, 800FSB)
RAM : 512MB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz - 2DIMMs - Will buy a 2Gig Kit separately
HDD : 320GB Performance RAID 0 (2 x 160GB SATA HDDs)
DVD : none. Will buy a Pioneer separately
Monitor : 19 inch Ultrasharp™ 1905FP Digital Flat Panel (will use this as a 2nd monitor to the separate CRT I will buy)
Vid : 256MB PCI Express™ x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) nVidia GeForce 6800
Sound : onboard
...
If you stay with just the 40GB SATA drive, the total will drop to $929 after $100 MIR. You don't need RAID0.

Get a 300GB hard drive for $130, a DVD burner for $50, and 2GB of DDR2 533Mhz for $250. That would bring the cost to $1359 after MIR.

Sell the 19" LCD and get the 20" or 21" CRT that you need.

[Showtime]

1 question. Can you wait til September? Probably too long, but that is when they usually have the best deals and I wouldn't be surprised to see a dual core 3ghz for less by then.
I also highly recommend going the single 74 gig raptor route. Test it out and if it doesnt work fast enough, raid with a 2nd raptor. They go on sale for around $160 every so often and was a huge improvement over my 7200 drives.

[Showtime]

From TB:
Ending Dimension 9100 Desktop 19in LCD $699 shipped free, Jul 27
Dell Small Business has the new Dimension 9100 Desktop with 945P chipset and BTX form factor technology - Pentium 4 630 3Ghz 512MB DDR2-533/40GB Serial ATA HD, 48x CD, Free 19in e193FP LCD, 128MB ATI Radeon X300SE PCI Express video card, 7.1 Audio, 1yr warranty, Word Perfect, XP Home $699 after $100 rebate (Limit 5 per customer), shipped free. Tax is charged. Exp Wed 7/27

Customize it under 9100 with 19in LCD.

Worthy upgrade: New Pentium D 820 2.8Ghz Dual Core CPU +$100

[bachviet]

From TB:
Ending Dimension 9100 Desktop 19in LCD $699 shipped free, Jul 27
Dell Small Business has the new Dimension 9100 Desktop with 945P chipset and BTX form factor technology - Pentium 4 630 3Ghz 512MB DDR2-533/40GB Serial ATA HD, 48x CD, Free 19in e193FP LCD, 128MB ATI Radeon X300SE PCI Express video card, 7.1 Audio, 1yr warranty, Word Perfect, XP Home $699 after $100 rebate (Limit 5 per customer), shipped free. Tax is charged. Exp Wed 7/27

Customize it under 9100 with 19in LCD.

Worthy upgrade: New Pentium D 820 2.8Ghz Dual Core CPU +$100
Read the 2nd post. :P

[nate el bueno]

just to throw it in: Tigerdirect sells refurbished crts, i think the 21" is under 150.
however, shipping crts isn't cheap, so you might want to scratch this idea unless you have a tigerdirect nearby you can shop at

[ArkiStan]

Yes! I think I can wait till September. School starts in September and I can just use the workstations in the studios till then. This system was intended for home anyway.

I will check out the Raptor main drive with larger data drive. That's actually similar to the setup I have right not, just without the Raptor. Thanks for all the info JeffBX. I didn't really expect to get professional advice. What a pleasant surprise! hehe~

And yes Nate, the large CRT is my greatest concern. I will check out to see if there are Tiger Direct B&Ms nearby for the refurb models.

[AlpineJay]

Another idea on the CRT issue...

You might ask around school and see if they're throwing out a CRT. My ECE department, for one, has thrown out more than its fair share of 21"+ CRT monitors because of its conversion to LCD. You may even write an email to your computing services/departments that manage large computer labs and see if there's one available for you to use. These monitors that they gave away were nice Trinitron units that probably went for several hundred bucks in its heyday.

Actually, 21"+ monitors seem to go for around 450+ onlien nowadays anyway. While the 17" and 19" units have plummeted in price, it seems like the larger ones are a hot commodity. The company I'm working for seems to be throwing CRTs out too, so with a little prying around you may run into some luck here!

[ArkiStan]

WOw!! what an idea, AlpineJay.....

I'm sending out e-mails right away.

[Markel]

In many places it's illegal to throw CRTs into the trash, so some places might be more than happy to have you haul away the ones they don't want.

[johnnymk]

http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=MON10102