Is there anyone NOT on Antidepressants/Anti-Anxiety Pills?

[johnnymk]

My sister went on Ativan nearly two years ago after an operation messed up her nervous system. Or it could have been cortisone shots ..

Well, anyway, the more people she talks to, she is discovering that they are on either antidepressants and/or anti-anxiety pills.

My chiropractor who lives in a very upscale neighborhood claims that half the people who live there are on these drugs.

What is going on? Why are so many people unable to deal with life in this so-called enlightened age we live in?

[Yossarian]

thye feel they need help, IMO. i was on Prozac for a few years in my early teens, then i realized that i wasn't any different with/without it and have been 'clean' since

[Gothic Girl]

Because the vast majority of people are always looking for something to blame for their problems. Being diagnosed with depression is an excuse that they can fall back on. It's just like all the kids that are on ritalin for ADD. Seriously, what kid DOESN'T have ADD? But we're not doping up every kid we see.

I dunno, it just seems like the government or society has this Barbie and Ken doll image of a perfect person, and if somebody's not quite up to par, then there's something wrong. I guess anti-depressants is the cure all.

I am supposed to be on antidepressants, but it's few and far between that I'll actually take them. I don't see a difference. It doesn't help me cope any better with life. Life still sucks, but a pill's not going to make me think that everything's rosey. I've just learned to deal with everything life throws at me, whether it be good or horrid.

[Kim]

I don't agree that all people use depression as an excuse. I know a person who was nearly crippled with anxiety, she could hardly function. When she finally talked to the doctor about it, and got on meds, the change was amazing. She has gone from barely being able to leave the house, to starting a business, volunteering, mentoring, etc.

[nickel]

I don't agree that all people use depression as an excuse. I know a person who was nearly crippled with anxiety, she could hardly function. When she finally talked to the doctor about it, and got on meds, the change was amazing. She has gone from barely being able to leave the house, to starting a business, volunteering, mentoring, etc.
there are definitely people who benefit from antidepressants such as this woman you have mentioned Kim.
but i think it is over prescribed.

i believe we had a thread on this before, but i see medical histories of our patients and i have to agree with johnnymk's chiropractor that about half of them are on or were on SSRIs.

and these meds are serious business. you are altering brain chemicals. people need to know they can't just go cold turkey off them or they can seriously mess themselves up.

[Kevster]

Yes, we have had this discussion before.

The best research findings point to treating depression with a combination of anti-depression drugs and psychotherapy to treat the person's illness. If they are not being treated by a psychotherapist who knows how to prescribe these medications, they are seriously endangering their mental health, in my opinion.
I'm not on any medications personally, but I do know people that need them every day in order to manage. They also happen to meet with a therapist at least one day a week as well.

[Nija]

I'm not on either :wavey:

Unfortunately, I'm hooked on Ventolin.

[Houdini]

I don't agree that all people use depression as an excuse. I know a person who was nearly crippled with anxiety, she could hardly function. When she finally talked to the doctor about it, and got on meds, the change was amazing. She has gone from barely being able to leave the house, to starting a business, volunteering, mentoring, etc.

They have helped millions of people. The thing to remember, if they're prescribed for you, is that they can take weeks to work. They don't work if they're only taken occasionally. Intermittent compliance may also result in more side effects. I don't believe everyone should be on antidepressants, but it's unfortunate that there's such a stigma attached to them (or any aspect of mental health).

[InfiniteNothing]

What's wrong with people being doped up. Live your own life and don't take drugs if you don't want to, otherwise... what's your big concern?

[Jenny]

Ever since my mom's breast cancer, she has been on anti-depressants. I didn't know that til the last time we were down in Oklahoma. After all her medical problems, with money & stuff, she's just been so stressed and unhappy that I guess her doctor decided she needed them.

[Kevster]

...it's unfortunate that there's such a stigma attached to them (or any aspect of mental health).

:stupid:

It saddens me when I hear ignorant and sometimes downright discriminatory comments from people about mental health. There are many more people out there with these issues than people think, they just don't say anything or try to get treatment because of the social stigma associated with it.

[DaFunkyUnit]

should look into scientology.

:shifty:

[Kevster]

should look into scientology.

:shifty:

:bonk:

Nah, they're too busy hanging out with the aliens in their big spaceship getting rectal probes after they give them a check for a LOT of money. What aliens need with money I have no idea, but apparently they need it for some reason.

[jstreet]

I think the pool of people could be increased if we included chainsmoking and/or binge drinking...

[Grimm]

I don't take anti-depresants of any kind. The only medications I take are tylenol, motrin, asprin and pepto-bismol. And those only rearely.

People have been trying to sell us on the idea that we should always be happy. If we are not happy, something must be wrong with us. So now they love to sell us little pills that will make us happy.

I don't buy it. How are we supposed to be motivated if we never have any negative emotions to ballance the scale? We will feel all warm and fuzzy about ourselves regardless if we acheive or not. What is the motivation?

Don't think, take your little happy pill and be content dear consumer.

[zenbooty]

I've never been on any antidepressant, or any prescribed medication at all, for that manner. I feel lucky for some reason. My use of mood-enhancing chemicals had always been purely recreational. I couldn't imagine NEEDING them to get through the day.

[ialsohaveadream]

I'm on the 3J ("Jergens and Jenna Jameson") plan to a happier me. And boy does it brighten my day whenever I get a treatment. :)

[Houdini]

I don't take anti-depresants of any kind. The only medications I take are tylenol, motrin, asprin and pepto-bismol. And those only rearely.

People have been trying to sell us on the idea that we should always be happy. If we are not happy, something must be wrong with us. So now they love to sell us little pills that will make us happy.

I don't buy it. How are we supposed to be motivated if we never have any negative emotions to ballance the scale? We will feel all warm and fuzzy about ourselves regardless if we acheive or not. What is the motivation?

Don't think, take your little happy pill and be content dear consumer.

Antidepressants do not generally dull all the lows as you're describing. They do help with pathologic feelings of depression and anxiety. While they do not change achievements, some people feel terrible regardless of what they achieve, or they feel too terrible to achieve anything (like get out of bed, eat, etc.) If anything, the pills help people to feel normal.

[bachviet]

Never on any pill except Tylenol, Aspirin, and Amoxilin.

[Devhux]

Well, for me they have done wonders, and frankly I don't care if others attempt to make fun of the fact that I'm taking them.

(and as for the comment about quitting cold turkey, let's just say that I did try that -- and REALLY crashed as a result (ended up taking a month off of work because of it, and let's just say I was NOT a happy person).

[Maarchk]

I think antidepressants can help people. I had a bipolar friend in college, who was my best friend, and then the next day told my girlfriend we had slept together, so that i would take more care of her... So after that and some other episodes she got a doctor and some meds and slowly put things together and was a better stronger person.

But i do know some people just like the feeling meds give them, or they like having an out to life. I think that while maybe people could get through life without meds, i think there are many cases when it helps give a person a more stable feeling so that impossible obstacles become manageable and they can work their way up through the challenges in life.

I have had some pretty horrid things to go through, but i have never taken a major pill, and i honestly haven't even taken so much as a headache drug in 3 years...
I think or i want to believe for myself, that i can make it through anything. Some times i get real sad and i try and exercise, spend time in the sun, keep a journal, and just hang out with someone so that way i can keep my mind moving and realize that life will always go on the next day. It isn't always the easiest thing, but i belive that will power is stronger then any drug.

[Gothic Girl]

I don't agree that all people use depression as an excuse. I know a person who was nearly crippled with anxiety, she could hardly function. When she finally talked to the doctor about it, and got on meds, the change was amazing. She has gone from barely being able to leave the house, to starting a business, volunteering, mentoring, etc.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was saying that all people use depression as an excuse. I've just seen people take advantage of their depression/anxiety so they don't have to work, even though they are capable.

I do agree that antidepressants help most people. But I also agree with Grimm. Society is trying to tell us that if we're not always happy, that something's wrong. I don't want to sound all Tom Cruise or whatever, but maybe happiness isn't always in a little pill. Maybe it can be found elsewhere in life by changing certain habits.

[irwin]

I've never agreed with psychiatry...EVER. You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do. There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance.There's ways of vitamins and through exercise and various things. When you talk about emotional, chemical imbalances in people, there is no science behind that.




edit: ^--- mr cruise's quotes. NOT my personal opinions on the subject :bandit:

[Butch]

I've never agreed with psychiatry...EVER. You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do. There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance.There's ways of vitamins and through exercise and various things. When you talk about emotional, chemical imbalances in people, there is no science behind that.

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up Dr. Cruise . . . I'm surprised it took this long!


I don't take anti-depresants of any kind. The only medications I take are tylenol, motrin, asprin and pepto-bismol. And those only rearely.


Ummmm . . . I'm pretty sure those are supposed to be taken orally . . . but hey, whatever works for ya there, Bud! :heh:

[jstreet]

Anti-depressants are such a tricky business.

I've been in therapy at various points in my life - I go whenever I feel I need to - and at a particular low point, my psychologist really wanted me to try some kind of medicine. I refused, she insisted, and I told her it was a big city and I could find someone else to talk to if she didn't stop with the medicine talk. To her credit, she did. Don't bite from the hand that feeds you, Doctor... I most certainly can bite back a lot harder.

And I feel fine, and I haven't been in therapy for over a year, so I guess I was right. Was I? Perhaps one can't really know. Perhaps I am missing the "normality" experience. I don't know. I feel normal. I didn't let her prescribe the meds because I was deathly, deathly afraid that somehow I'd no longer be Ben. In what way, I couldn't say, but would I ever know? I almost saw an analogy in growing old and forgetting things. Does an old person's mind know it is going, and inside it is screaming in fear as the outside is relatively muted and glazed? Or does the old person never even realize that they're losing themself?

I would agree with the suggestion that there are some people with chemical imbalances or other problems that simply require anti-depressants, and I think it's a fraction of those actually on anti-depressants, with the larger majority taking them because they were wrongly prescribed or because they are too lazy to work hard to fix a fixable problem.

[johnnymk]

I've never agreed with psychiatry...EVER. You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do. There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance.There's ways of vitamins and through exercise and various things. When you talk about emotional, chemical imbalances in people, there is no science behind that.

I read a book 25 years ago which changed my attitude concerning depression. Basically, the author claimed that depression is the result of self pity and getting angry over the attitude or event which caused the self pity.

I was very depressed when I was younger. But after considering the two components: self pity and anger I watch for them in my life and being a Christian confess that they are sins and also ask for a thankful attitude, and the depression evaporates. The method always works unless I am stubborn and decide to wallow in self pity and seethe inside with anger.

I have talked to quite a few people who are depressed. In practically every case, they are either angry over some event in their life which they felt they didn't or don't deserve or are just angry at everything. They are definitely not thankful at the moment.

I also believe that these attitudes can affect the brain chemistry. Just like excessive alcohol can destroy an alcoholic's liver and affect his brain(wet brain) and other organs, long term anger can destroy the balance in the brain, and BTW can damage other organs.

I also believe that psychiatry is in the Blame Game business. They blame patients' parents, their siblings, their boss, their environment, the foods they eat and they even blame God for their problems. And what solutions do they offer?

Today it's drugs, which as nickel stated can affect the long term chemistry of your brain. Whether it's irreversible, I am not certain. I do know that the people I know can not get off of them without suffering major side effects. They are literally addicted to them. This must make the drug companies ecstatic.

I believe that psychiatry has subtly admitted that they have no solutions. So either because of the expense of therapy or lack of time in patients' lives, the fast and easy method is to prescribe mood altering drugs.

I do believe that there are people who are born with chemical imbalances in their body which can affect their thinking patterns. I also believe that there are certain events in people's lives which they became victims: childhood molestation, disfigurement due to accidents, loss of parents at a very young age, etc. However, even within these cases, unless the self pity and the resulting rage isn't dealt with, mind altering drugs are just a band aid.

As to anxiety, it's nothing more than fear of the future: fear that there won't be enough finances, fear that you won't be accepted, fear of ridicule, fear of failure, etc. Everyone in life has these fears. It's called worry. Why do some people cope with these common fears and oters don't? I am not sure, but I am convinced that drugs again are nothing more than band aids to treat them. And studies have shown that long term fear can alter the chemistry of a person's brain and body which can affect their attitudes and health.

[topane]

I read a study somewhere (can't remember where, please take it with a chunk of salt) that showed for most milder depressions, 30 minutes of exercise every day along with eating decent food was more effective than the drugs.

[InfiniteNothing]

I read a study somewhere (can't remember where, please take it with a chunk of salt) that showed for most milder depressions, 30 minutes of exercise every day along with eating decent food was more effective than the drugs.

That effect wears off after a while and then you get depressed when you don't exercise. It's addictive.

[thresher]

I'm bi-polar (successfully medication managed for the last 19 years, thank you) and I believe that the research and advances in depression and seizure medications have made been very helpful for the mental health community. The bi-polars would still be taking lithium (bleck) and not completing sentences were it not for Nuerontin - an antiseizure medication. So, on behalf of....where was I? :) Seriously, though, I do have a regimen of diet (NO drugs, caffeine or alcohol) and a regimen of excercise (kayaking, surfing and fishing 3-4X a week) and my wife of 15 years does a great job of helping me notice if things are a little out of balance. But, I am one of the lucky ones.
Thresh

[attgig]

is there a pill that'll make me like my job? cuz i'm feeling very unhappy here.

[Houdini]

I also believe that psychiatry is in the Blame Game business. They blame patients' parents, their siblings, their boss, their environment, the foods they eat and they even blame God for their problems. And what solutions do they offer?

Today it's drugs, which as nickel stated can affect the long term chemistry of your brain. Whether it's irreversible, I am not certain. I do know that the people I know can not get off of them without suffering major side effects. They are literally addicted to them. This must make the drug companies ecstatic.


I know few psychiatrists that focus on blame. Also, antidepressants are not addicting. Whether or not they are over or under-prescribed, I'm not quite sure. Non-psychiatrists prescribe them routinely with limited understanding of the meds. :shrug:

[welfareloser]

:stupid:

most people don't know the difference between psychiatry and psychology. :shrug: there are plenty of counsellors, therapists, etc, out there - maybe they have a phd in psychology, maybe just a masters, or a bachelors, or a fake degree from an internet university - who are quacks. there are also plenty of good ones. and none of them get to prescribe drugs.

it's really easy to feel smug about not being on anti-depressants if you and those you love don't need them. :shrug:

it's not just that they "can" alter brain chemistry... they DO alter it. that's the whole... durned... point. sometimes it absolutely NEEDS altering, because it wasn't right to begin with. and you can argue whether or not any one person "needs" them, or uses them as a crutch, or whatever... but if someone wants to be on them and feels better, by their own criteria, while on them... then i, for one, have no argument to make. period.as for whether or not people are considering the long-term effects... some are. and the specter of POSSIBLE (and - as time goes on, drugs improve, more people are on them longer with still no disasters emerging, etc - less and less likely) as-yet undiscovered long-term effects has to be weighed against the long-term effects of NOT FIXING THE DAMNED PROBLEM that the meds are intended to fix. (and, of course, some people don't think about the long term effects... of anything. :shrug: that's why this country is famous for trashing the environment and racking up debt. ;) )

most of us will be depressed at some point in our lives. you can seek out drugs for this or not. if a doctor offers or recommends them, you can take them or not. you can use the diagnosis of depression (or any other mental problem) as an excuse... or not.

some people suck. some sucky people use and/or abuse prescriptions and excuses. it really says nothing about antidepressants as a whole. i mean... what percentage of people in the world suck? not the majority (i know, i know, some cynics beg to differ... :P ) i'd venture a guess that most people are on them for reasons that are good enough for them, and that's good enough for me. i don't have anything negative to say about them. i don't have anything negative to say about those who have worked through things without meds, either.

a psychiatrist can't live with you and see what your mental disorders really are. they see you for an hour, ask you questions, and decide whether or not to prescribe stuff to you based on your answers. if you want a particular drug, and can lie successfully, you can make up answers to get what you want. no doubt there are people doing that. there are parents who just want their kids on add medication to make their school performance better or their own lives easier. HOWEVER, the fact that such people exist does not in any way imply that you can spot the real patients from the "fake" ones. i know what people say behind the backs of parents who admit (gasp) to having their kids on ssri's or adhd meds... it's always smug and unkind. it's a big reason why i rarely admit to anyone irl that EG is on an SSRI... doesn't matter how legitimate the reasons obviously are, a lot of people are going to smugly despise me for it. :shrug: they just see him as he is now, and decide i'm lazy. they didn't see him as he was before, because he was busy curled in a ball on the couch crying 8 hours a day :shrug: my 30-year-old friend mike is on adhd meds... yeah, he takes sh** about it... from people who haven't watched him struggle to read a simple paragraph on one of his "medication holiday" weekends.

point being... the vast majority of people who put their kids on meds do it because it makes their kids' lives better. the parents who beat their kids, the evil stage moms, the neglectful parents, the crack hos... add em all up,. they're just not the majority. not even close. so generalizations are simply in poor taste.

as for people who are on an ssri themselves... first, make sure you understand what an ssri actually does. it ain't exactly crystal meth. it's a pretty gentle tweak; one that can make a world of difference for some, short-term or long-term. i'd have to know someone pretty durned well before i'd feel empowered to pass judgement on whether they were on it for a "good" reason or not... and i really don't understand how so many people out there (seems like MOST people i discuss it with, really) can be so perfectly happy passing that judgement en masse. it seems that most of the head-shaking and tsk-tsk'ing i encounter on this subject comes down to ignorance and the inability to look past the tip of one's own nose. and no... not referring to anyone here. this has been a pretty light discussion. i'm getting a bit angry thinking of people IRL who have gone into great detail about their personal judgements of others on this subject...

[Bires]

I'm addicted to placebos.






...











I could stop, but why bother?

[johnnymk]

I'm addicted to placebos.


I could stop, but why bother?

That's a good one. I will have to remember that

[jstreet]

is there a pill that'll make me like my job? cuz i'm feeling very unhappy here.
:stupid:

PS was just in Baltimore. Not so ghetto! ;)

[thresher]

Bires - I just spilled my morning tea all over the keyboard. That was damned funny!! :):):)

[Pemolis]

This planet has-or rather had-a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solution were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green piees of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unahppy.

And so the problem remained; lots of the people were mean, and most of them were miserable, even the ones with digital watches.

That was from Douglas Adams, The Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy. I started reading that yesterday and it made me think a bit.

Most of us are unhappy, but none of us deal with it in any credible way. Some take drugs, others excerize, and some people (like me) read. The strange thing is that I have been fairly unhappy for a very longtime, and only recently (that being a week or so) have I started reading.

Now I am not saying that reading is the release we all need from being unhappy, miserable, depressed or anxious, but to deal with such feelings we have to address them (not obsess them), do things which put us in the situation in order to desensitise ourselves who obsess over things (such as people with anxiety or worry), consistently go out, meet people, have gatherings and play (for those who are depressed), or look at where we are and if unhappy consider moving or changing that aspect that makes us unhappy, which maybe changing jobs, start cooking lunch instead of buying it, or moving from the town you have lived in your entire life to a place 10 to 20 miles away so that you may get a fresh "Look out" on life.

These are the concepts that I know of, but even if these guaranteed happyness, 90% of the people would never do it. Most attribute this lack of doing as lazyness, but that is not it. The act of Doing is interconnected with the feelings of dread, depression, anxiety and worry. These feelings deny a person from acting in a case, which even when guaranteed 100% success, that would give them joy, relief and pleasure. Even when known, we, the people, would rather think about this than act upon it. We believe thinking can solve the problems. This concept is the enevatable downfall of psychiatry. Thinking doesn't solve your issues. Acting does. You would get more help from a person kicking you in the right direction than from a person pointing you in that same direction, IE. The phrase, kick in the @ss, derived from this thinking.


Here are the things a person needs in order to be happy.

1) Socialization skills. Unfortunately most depressed and Anxious people don't have many friends (family does not count as friends but in addition many of these people don't have family). To account for this, one must develop friendships. Friendships are different from aquaintances or work buddies as these people must exist outside of the dedicated activity (that being work, school, family gatherings, firedrills, etc). Time outside must be spent with these people in order to relay such feelings (You have to trust these people to some extent to talk to them).

2) Change your surroundings. This only accounts to those who dislike where they live. The suggestion is to move from a place you dislike, to somewhere else. Now it is a bad idea to race far away from friends and family unless the destination has some sort of social condition which you are accustomed to, else to lose out on your support structure would be detrimental to your mental health. Moving brings a rush of adrenaline and endorphines, similar to that released when having sex, while temporary, will grant you greater will and power over yourself as well as give you a chance to change certain aspects and personality traits of yourself that you may think were not possible in the area you currently live in.

3) Learn to Relax. This is harder than it sounds. Relaxing isn't something you do when you sleep, thats called sleeping. The mind cannot constantly churn out figures, thoughts, fantasy's and stress thoughout your waking ours without a break. If you do at least 1 day a month you will completely mentally breakdown. Relaxation should last 20 to 30 minutes, undistrubed, outside of your home, away from your tv and phone and computer. There should be either easy jazz, easy listening, or no music, and you should just let your mind go, release the idea's and thoughts into the air, and be at peace. Other suggestions are morning Yoga Workouts such at those in Bryant Park NYC at 7 am in the morning.

4) 50% of the time, medication will not help. Infact medication only attempts to deny certain neural and chemical connections from forming. It slows down some of the synaptic firing for those who worry or are anxious, but it does nothing to cure that worry or anxiety. Only changes in your personality, your thought process and your life can cure such ailments. Medication does work in calming peole 50% of the time, but Medication will not cure a person who's problem is their thought process, their anxiety, their worry, their depression when there is no chemical imbalance which is causing it in the first place.


The thing that actually worked for me was a friend. I gained a friend, and the anxiety and depression was relieved. It was still there but at least one of the main issues that caused the anxiety and depression (my lack of friends) was dissapated.

These are some of my random thoughts.

[InfiniteNothing]

Give it to me
We are all on drugs yeah
Never getting enough (Never get enough)
We are all on drugs yeah
Give me some of that stuff (Wooooh)

[whitak24]

i haven't posted in a long time, but this thread compelled me to respond.

there are reasons for people to take psych drugs. to dismiss an entire class of medication simply because you don't like it is foolish. why don't people also dismiss tylenol? after all, if people weren't such wusses, they wouldn't need pain-killers. they'd just deal with the pain.

i was on psych drugs for a short time this past spring. i had just broken up with my girlfriend of 7 years, and i was going through the darkest period of my life. i couldn't sleep, i wasn't really eating, and i was feeling vaguely suicidal. to make matters worse, i was having panic attacks.

stand in a bathroom stall, crying, sweating, and unable to breath, feeling like the world is closing in around you, and then tell me that psych drugs that help prevent these feelings are unnecessary or the crutch of lazy people unwilling to take responsibility for their own problems.

fortunately, i had been seeing a psych for some time at that point and she put me on anti-anxiety pills. honestly, i don't recall which ones. they helped me sleep and most importantly prevented more panic attacks. in time, i dealt with some of the pain and sadness that i was feeling and my emotions became more stable. i was able to quit taking the anti-anxiety meds.

however, i would challenge all those who dismiss such medicine to actually learn about people who take such meds and their situations. you may find them to be less emotionally lazy people looking for a crutch and more people who have been liberated from the jail of an imbalanced mind by these pills.

[Kim]

Well said, Whitak. Thanks for sharing your story, I'm glad things are going better for you.

[welfareloser]

These are the concepts that I know of, but even if these guaranteed happyness, 90% of the people would never do it. Most attribute this lack of doing as lazyness, but that is not it. The act of Doing is interconnected with the feelings of dread, depression, anxiety and worry. These feelings deny a person from acting in a case, which even when guaranteed 100% success, that would give them joy, relief and pleasure. Even when known, we, the people, would rather think about this than act upon it. We believe thinking can solve the problems. This concept is the enevatable downfall of psychiatry. Thinking doesn't solve your issues. Acting does. You would get more help from a person kicking you in the right direction than from a person pointing you in that same direction, IE. The phrase, kick in the @ss, derived from this thinking.

4) 50% of the time, medication will not help. Infact medication only attempts to deny certain neural and chemical connections from forming. It slows down some of the synaptic firing for those who worry or are anxious, but it does nothing to cure that worry or anxiety. Only changes in your personality, your thought process and your life can cure such ailments. Medication does work in calming peole 50% of the time, but Medication will not cure a person who's problem is their thought process, their anxiety, their worry, their depression when there is no chemical imbalance which is causing it in the first place.

some good thoughts, but i do need to examine a few things here...

it doesn't seem that you have a good working knowledge of what psychiatry is. "acting, not thinking, solves problems" is not going to be the downfall of psychiatry. psychiatry attempts to solve problems with very concrete actions aimed at what is, to the best of current scientific knowledge, the root cause.

i think you are thinking of psychologists/counsellors... and in most cases, such people DO prescribe actions. "tell your partner how you feel." "go out at least once a week." for children, there is play therapy. there is occupational therapy for the severely impaired. etc. have you ever been to a counsellor?

not to mention... there are several dozen laws that prevent therapists from "kicking" people into action rather than advising. forcing people to do stuff ain't cool ;)

now, as for your next point... 50%? where'd you get that number? 50% of what group, exactly?

and this... "Infact medication only attempts to deny certain neural and chemical connections from forming. It slows down some of the synaptic firing for those who worry or are anxious, but it does nothing to cure that worry or anxiety."

it's not at all clear exactly what you mean, so i can't even really say "you're wrong."

however, to respond to what i think you meant... depends on the problem. in EG's case, his ssri absolutely got rid of his anxiety which was caused solely by the serotonin problem. period. and that's the case for a lot of anxiety disorders. t'ain't normal to spend 2 hours wailing inconsolably because your pop-tart broke into unequal pieces... no amount of changes in his "personality, thought process, and life" were going to solve that problem. for a great many people, medication does EVERYTHING to cure that worry or anxiety.

as for general depression... yeah. some people are afraid to face up to their situational or personality problems. but, as you said, it's pretty tough to take teh actions that will help you feel better when depression is holding you back. for many, short-term anti-depressant use is of enormous help in breaking out of the rut and getting moving in the right direction. for depression that is obviously situational with no likely underlying disorder, a doc will always strongly recommend some other form of therapy, and good therapy takes the form of coming up with a plan of action. and yeah, "daddy spanked me" discussions may be involved in figuring out what the best plan is... but i think the whole "therapists just sit and blab and play the blame game, nothing more" routine is just a cliche with no more truth to it than "germans wear lederhosen." it's a caricature. i'm sure there are awful therapists out there sucking money and getting their patients nowhere, but i've met a few therapists, and quite a few psychiatrists, and they all work pretty hard to help a lot of people with a lot of different problems in a lot of different ways, and they all have a lot of successes to be proud of.

now... there is a psychiatrist i know who likes to say that "motherf###erism isn't in the dsmv because you just can't fix it." :P and though it is a joke, there's also some food for thought... i think people in general have a tendency to exaggerate some insignificant things that happen to be interesting enough to grab our imagination. like shark attacks. so rare, and how many people's pulses quicken when they get in the ocean? ssri's, meant to help people feel good... but they could cause suicidal thoughts?!?!? oh noes! the fact is, the occurence of such things is put-near in the single digits, compared to the millions who take ssri's. we like the surprise, the shocking twist, so our minds latch onto it well out of proportion to the significance of the problem... it's no fun to simply say "lots of people take ssri's, and if these meds help, they continue to take them, and if they don't help, discontinue them." much more satisfying to say "those people have got it all wrong." anyway, back to my earlier point... i guess we'd all like to think that the vast majority of people on ssri's are simply suffering from incurable motherf###erism, but i really don't think that's the case. (and i include myself in that "all" ... when i was younger, i could have easily held the whole thing in contempt myself. i also thought an awful lot of people were bad parents before i had kids :P you live, you learn.)

basically... a doctor isn't always going to get the diagnosis right or choose the perfect med the first time. maybe the doc thought the patient had a problem that meds would help, and it turns out the patients problem is somethign different that would be helped by a different med, or none at all. psychiatric treatment - like all medical treatment - is an imperfect process whose ultimate goal is to help people who want to be helped. i just find it inexplicable that so many can look at such a process of trial and error, success and failure, and see a useless, dangerous, or evil (if you're tom cruise) entity, or a profession headed for imminent demise like you do. :shrug:

anyway. my random thoughts :)

[navyones]

Welcome back, WL! LTNS!!! :)

[welfareloser]

i would challenge all those who dismiss such medicine to actually learn about people who take such meds and their situations.

:stupid:

thanks for sharing. the stigma makes it tough to do so. there are plenty of people here (heck, everywhere) who keep silent because they know exactly what it would do to some people's opinions of them.

[Houdini]

*snip*

Here's a big :stupid: . Good to have you back, wl.

For the record, I've never seen a "50%" stat. Some people don't respond to one antidepressant or even an entire class of antidepressants as well as others. For example, a SNRI may work where an SSRI won't. Sometimes anxiety treatment may be augmented with benzos like valium or ativan, though they're falling out of favor. The right meds can help the right people. Mood disorders, thought disorders and even personality disorders can be debilitating, and we live in an age where there are effective treatments for many of them. This isn't to discount the value of therapy or other ways of dealing with problems, but meds assuredly are extremely helpful for many and are an integral part of modern psychiatry (along with electroconvulsive therapy, etc. Yes, ECT is still used, and yes, it works well, Cruise.)

[Pemolis]

some good thoughts, but i do need to examine a few things here...

it doesn't seem that you have a good working knowledge of what psychiatry is. "acting, not thinking, solves problems" is not going to be the downfall of psychiatry. psychiatry attempts to solve problems with very concrete actions aimed at what is, to the best of current scientific knowledge, the root cause.

i think you are thinking of psychologists/counsellors... and in most cases, such people DO prescribe actions. "tell your partner how you feel." "go out at least once a week." for children, there is play therapy. there is occupational therapy for the severely impaired. etc. have you ever been to a counsellor?

not to mention... there are several dozen laws that prevent therapists from "kicking" people into action rather than advising. forcing people to do stuff ain't cool ;)

now, as for your next point... 50%? where'd you get that number? 50% of what group, exactly?

and this... "Infact medication only attempts to deny certain neural and chemical connections from forming. It slows down some of the synaptic firing for those who worry or are anxious, but it does nothing to cure that worry or anxiety."

it's not at all clear exactly what you mean, so i can't even really say "you're wrong."

however, to respond to what i think you meant... depends on the problem. in EG's case, his ssri absolutely got rid of his anxiety which was caused solely by the serotonin problem. period. and that's the case for a lot of anxiety disorders. t'ain't normal to spend 2 hours wailing inconsolably because your pop-tart broke into unequal pieces... no amount of changes in his "personality, thought process, and life" were going to solve that problem. for a great many people, medication does EVERYTHING to cure that worry or anxiety.

as for general depression... yeah. some people are afraid to face up to their situational or personality problems. but, as you said, it's pretty tough to take teh actions that will help you feel better when depression is holding you back. for many, short-term anti-depressant use is of enormous help in breaking out of the rut and getting moving in the right direction. for depression that is obviously situational with no likely underlying disorder, a doc will always strongly recommend some other form of therapy, and good therapy takes the form of coming up with a plan of action. and yeah, "daddy spanked me" discussions may be involved in figuring out what the best plan is... but i think the whole "therapists just sit and blab and play the blame game, nothing more" routine is just a cliche with no more truth to it than "germans wear lederhosen." it's a caricature. i'm sure there are awful therapists out there sucking money and getting their patients nowhere, but i've met a few therapists, and quite a few psychiatrists, and they all work pretty hard to help a lot of people with a lot of different problems in a lot of different ways, and they all have a lot of successes to be proud of.

now... there is a psychiatrist i know who likes to say that "motherf###erism isn't in the dsmv because you just can't fix it." :P and though it is a joke, there's also some food for thought... i think people in general have a tendency to exaggerate some insignificant things that happen to be interesting enough to grab our imagination. like shark attacks. so rare, and how many people's pulses quicken when they get in the ocean? ssri's, meant to help people feel good... but they could cause suicidal thoughts?!?!? oh noes! the fact is, the occurence of such things is put-near in the single digits, compared to the millions who take ssri's. we like the surprise, the shocking twist, so our minds latch onto it well out of proportion to the significance of the problem... it's no fun to simply say "lots of people take ssri's, and if these meds help, they continue to take them, and if they don't help, discontinue them." much more satisfying to say "those people have got it all wrong." anyway, back to my earlier point... i guess we'd all like to think that the vast majority of people on ssri's are simply suffering from incurable motherf###erism, but i really don't think that's the case. (and i include myself in that "all" ... when i was younger, i could have easily held the whole thing in contempt myself. i also thought an awful lot of people were bad parents before i had kids :P you live, you learn.)

basically... a doctor isn't always going to get the diagnosis right or choose the perfect med the first time. maybe the doc thought the patient had a problem that meds would help, and it turns out the patients problem is somethign different that would be helped by a different med, or none at all. psychiatric treatment - like all medical treatment - is an imperfect process whose ultimate goal is to help people who want to be helped. i just find it inexplicable that so many can look at such a process of trial and error, success and failure, and see a useless, dangerous, or evil (if you're tom cruise) entity, or a profession headed for imminent demise like you do. :shrug:

anyway. my random thoughts :)


I wanted to pick some part of it out... but I'm a little lazy :eek3: Don't get me wrong, I understand that for some people, even a great many people, medication does resolve their issues. Even temporary medication can help them get out of "THE RUT" so that they can function with their lives. Yet with many people, long term medication is not the right answer for them, and a great many psychiatrists don't quite understand why (be it that they don't understand, or they know and don't tell people, I do not know).

With EG's case and the serratonin imbalance, ok medication maybe the only real answer and I agree with it because in that case there is a real problem that can be addressed with it (the chemical imbalance). In alot of people this is true, Yet in alot of people, this is not. Yet the same answer is medication.

The 50% mark was a random number picked but I do believe to some extent I am not far off. Approximately every decade or so, the amount of people diagnosed with mental illness has doubled (actually its gone up more than that). I presume that just from the amount of police reports of people with mental illnesses which hovers about 80,000. It was 20,000 in 1980. I won't sell you on hard facts cause I am not a researcher. The one thing I can probably assume is that mental illnesses are on the rise and with no apparent reason. Honestly I am not sure if I can talk more about this anymore right now. I just know that for some people, Medication is the answer. For others, changing the personality and enviorment is the answer.

[Houdini]

I...Yet with many people, long term medication is not the right answer for them, and a great many psychiatrists don't quite understand why (be it that they don't understand, or they know and don't tell people, I do not know)....

Trust me. There's no conspiracy of psychiatrists trying to get patients on medications. For some reason people are very willing to accept the premise that antidepressants are overprescribed. In fact, they may be underprescribed. :shrug:



With EG's case and the serratonin imbalance, ok medication maybe the only real answer and I agree with it because in that case there is a real problem that can be addressed with it (the chemical imbalance). In alot of people this is true, Yet in alot of people, this is not. Yet the same answer is medication.

That's one of the problems. In EG's case (and others' cases), the decision to start antidepressants is/was a clinical decision. One does not check a serotonin level in the brain before prescribing. Nobody here is contending that everyone, or even all people who have feelings of depression, should be on meds.



The 50% mark was a random number picked but I do believe to some extent I am not far off. Approximately every decade or so, the amount of people diagnosed with mental illness has doubled (actually its gone up more than that). I presume that just from the amount of police reports of people with mental illnesses which hovers about 80,000. It was 20,000 in 1980. I won't sell you on hard facts cause I am not a researcher. The one thing I can probably assume is that mental illnesses are on the rise and with no apparent reason. Honestly I am not sure if I can talk more about this anymore right now. I just know that for some people, Medication is the answer. For others, changing the personality and enviorment is the answer.

Increased diagnosis does not equal increased prevalence. Which mental illnesses are on the rise? I'd contend that treatment percentages are increasing as well. Also, it's sometimes diffuclt to change one's situation, and it's difficult (if not impossible?) to change one's personality. It's even more difficult if your mood or your thoughts are out of your control.

[Kevster]

For anyone wondering what living with bipolar disorder is like, the book, "The Unquiet Mind" by Kay Redfield Jamison is an intriguing read. She has lived with bipolar disorder for 30+ years and is a practicing psychologist and professor of psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.

Here's an excerpt: http://www.cosmos-club.org/journals/1996/jamison.html

Edit: Her personal description of depression is.. scary:
Depression is awful beyond words or sounds or images; I would not go through an extended one again. It bleeds relationships through suspicion, lack of confidence and self- respect, the inability to enjoy life, to walk or talk or think normally, the exhaustion, the night terrors, the day terrors. There is nothing good to be said for it except that it gives you the experience of how it must be to be old, to be old and sick, to be dying; to be slow of mind; to be lacking in grace, polish and coordination; to be ugly; to have no belief in the possibilities of life, the pleasures of sex, the exquisiteness of music or the ability to make yourself and others laugh.

Others imply that they know what it is like to be depressed because they have gone through a divorce, lost a job or broken up with someone. But these experiences carry with them feelings. Depression, instead, is flat, hollow and unendurable. It is also tiresome. People cannot abide being around you when you are depressed. They might think that they ought to, and they might even try, but you know and they know that you are tedious beyond belief: You're irritable and paranoid and humorless and lifeless and critical and demanding and no reassurance is ever enough. You're frightened, and you're frightening, and you're "not at all like yourself but will be soon," but you know you won't.

[BigJon]

I don't take any pills. Neither do I.

[LegendKiller]

I have never had to take them but I know people who do and it does help.

[nickel]

I don't take any pills. Neither do I.
:heh:

[Airencracken]

I'm not.

[Grimm]

For anyone wondering what living with bipolar disorder is like, the book, "The Unquiet Mind" by Kay Redfield Jamison is an intriguing read. She has lived with bipolar disorder for 30+ years and is a practicing psychologist and professor of psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.

Here's an excerpt: http://www.cosmos-club.org/journals/1996/jamison.html

Edit: Her personal description of depression is.. scary:
Depression is awful beyond words or sounds or images; I would not go through an extended one again. It bleeds relationships through suspicion, lack of confidence and self- respect, the inability to enjoy life, to walk or talk or think normally, the exhaustion, the night terrors, the day terrors. There is nothing good to be said for it except that it gives you the experience of how it must be to be old, to be old and sick, to be dying; to be slow of mind; to be lacking in grace, polish and coordination; to be ugly; to have no belief in the possibilities of life, the pleasures of sex, the exquisiteness of music or the ability to make yourself and others laugh.

Others imply that they know what it is like to be depressed because they have gone through a divorce, lost a job or broken up with someone. But these experiences carry with them feelings. Depression, instead, is flat, hollow and unendurable. It is also tiresome. People cannot abide being around you when you are depressed. They might think that they ought to, and they might even try, but you know and they know that you are tedious beyond belief: You're irritable and paranoid and humorless and lifeless and critical and demanding and no reassurance is ever enough. You're frightened, and you're frightening, and you're "not at all like yourself but will be soon," but you know you won't.
While I do not dispute the necessity for some people to receive psych meds, most do not need it. They just need to learn how to deal with it. Life is not all happyness and sunshine. A significant portion of my life was spent living like that exerpt quoted above. I got through it without medication. I learned that you take a day at a time and worked at adjusting your behavior to live a better life. I wasn't seriously imbalanced like a bi-polar person though, just mildly depressed.
I would venture to guess that most people taking these medications have coping problems they need to learn to deal with. Taking medication just makes it so they don't have to do it. That's a bad thing.

[Houdini]

While I do not dispute the necessity for some people to receive psych meds, most do not need it. They just need to learn how to deal with it. Life is not all happyness and sunshine. A significant portion of my life was spent living like that exerpt quoted above. I got through it without medication. I learned that you take a day at a time and worked at adjusting your behavior to live a better life. I wasn't seriously imbalanced like a bi-polar person though, just mildly depressed.
I would venture to guess that most people taking these medications have coping problems they need to learn to deal with. Taking medication just makes it so they don't have to do it. That's a bad thing.

When you say, "most do not need it," are you talking about most people in general or most patients taking psych meds? If the former, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. For the latter, I'm not so sure. Also, remember that "psych meds" is a huge category, including antipsychotics, antidepressants, mood stabilizers, etc.

Antidepressants don't make life "all happiness and sunshine." They also don't solve problems. They make problems easier to solve for some, and can treat those who have mood problems NOT caused by life's difficulties/situations. Too often people bash psych meds out of either irrational fears or simply not understanding their indications.

[bricheese]

is there a pill that'll make me like my job? cuz i'm feeling very unhappy here.

lol!! i feel you im unhappy too with my job. I dont take depression pills cuz they make me tired and more depressed. I think people take them as an escape. sometimes i make myself depressed so its my fault. rather then fixinf problems, people sometimes rely on pills, thats not ok. people should seek proper guidance. Pills never worked for me and made me more depressed, sad but true (for me at least) :wavey2:

[Grimm]

When you say, "most do not need it," are you talking about most people in general or most patients taking psych meds? If the former, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. For the latter, I'm not so sure. Also, remember that "psych meds" is a huge category, including antipsychotics, antidepressants, mood stabilizers, etc.
I was just refering to the average person on the street that takes antidepressants. People who are commited to an institution probably need some help or they wouldn't be there.

[Houdini]

Kay Redfield Jamison's stuff

I highly reccommend her books, including Touched With Fire, a book about manic creativity, Night Falls Fast, an incredibly interesting and thorough book about suicide, and another new one about exuberance. I've heard her speak a few times, and if she's ever speaking in your area, i highly reccommend attending as well. She is trained in psychology and is one of the world's experts on bipolar disorder. She literally wrote the book on the subject, a well-known clinical text.

[Houdini]

I was just refering to the average person on the street that takes antidepressants. People who are commited to an institution probably need some help or they wouldn't be there.

I'd have to strongly disagree with you, from a professional standpoint. Many people who take antidepressants as an outpatients take them for good reason. There are definite criteria that must be met for true psychiatric diagnoses and true indications for medication prescription. Psych hospitals are filled with people who often would not be there had they taken their meds as outpatients. In other words, these medications can keep people out of the "institutions."

True depression doesn't have to be situational and isn't a weakness, character flaw, or inability or unwillingness to simply "deal with life." It is an illness, like high blood pressure, diabetes, heart disease, or cancer. A person's mood is out of his or her control. It's scary and unbelievably painful. Sometimes people can cover it well in public, but they're experiencing huge degrees of anxiety, emptiness, numbness, and pain.

Until recent times, mood disorders (which is what we're primarily discussing here) were relatively untreatable. No, these psych meds aren't panaceas, but it is irresponsible to dismiss the "average person on the street's" possible mental illness.

[Grimm]

I'd have to strongly disagree with you, from a professional standpoint. Many people who take antidepressants as an outpatients take them for good reason. There are definite criteria that must be met for true psychiatric diagnoses and true indications for medication prescription. Psych hospitals are filled with people who often would not be there had they taken their meds as outpatients. In other words, these medications can keep people out of the "institutions."
I'm not saying that thare aren't many people treated as outpatients that do not need antidepresants. But I do believe they are heavily overprescribed.

The Rittilin scandal being a prime example. Too many people doped up their kids beause the drug companies paid some doctor to release a study that told other doctors it should be done.
Prozac is passed out like candy. It was being used for situaltional problems. That's not right.

I think I have a pretty good handle on what depression is. You don't need to try to describe it to me. I am fully aware that depression is not situational and can occur at any time regardless of the situation. School can be fine, your grades can be great, you can have lots of friends and then one day you don't want to go outside. You want to stay in your room and not talk to anyone. Nothing can cheer you up. Jokes aren't funny, you aren't hungry, you don't care about anything. It feels like you are pushing against an invisible force every time you try to do something, not a physical force, one that pushes the will to acomplish anything right out of you. You keep trudging along and after a while, a few days, a few months, things get easier again for a while.

[Houdini]

I'm not saying that thare aren't many people treated as outpatients that do not need antidepresants. But I do believe they are heavily overprescribed.

The Rittilin scandal being a prime example. Too many people doped up their kids beause the drug companies paid some doctor to release a study that told other doctors it should be done.
Prozac is passed out like candy. It was being used for situaltional problems. That's not right.


Perhaps they are overprescribed. Perhaps they're underprescribed. Why is that important? What evidence do you have? I never claimed they were for everyone, but there are plenty of people who should be taking them who aren't. Perhaps there are some who shouldn't be who are. They are prescribed for much more than depression and have many, many FDA approved and off-label indications. They are also used as adjuncts to other medications and for other illnesses. For example, they decrease mortality in patients who have had heart attacks (a big risk factor in itself for depression).

Ritalin scandal? While sometimes inappropriately prescribed, stimulants are overwhelmingly helpful to many children and adults who think differently than the rest of us.

Antidepressants like Prozac can be helpful in depressions exacerbated by situations as well. They don't make the problems go away, but they may make the patient more likely to face the problems and live productive lives. Just saying, "that's not right" without looking at actual situational depressions or reasons for prescribing the drug in individuals isn't fair or even meaningful.

Demonizing the drug or making blanket statements, such as "most do not need it. They just need to learn how to deal with it" demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of mental illness. You must remember that your concept of depression or your experience of it can be vastly different from that of somone else. For many, the feelings you describe don't go away. For many, the feelings are exponentially worse.

[Grimm]

Ritalin scandal? While sometimes inappropriately prescribed, stimulants are overwhelmingly helpful to many children and adults who think differently than the rest of us.
You should know about this, you claim to be involved in the field.
http://www.breggin.com/stimindex.html

This doctor was involved in to prosicution against the drug company.

[Houdini]

You should know about this, you claim to be involved in the field.
http://www.breggin.com/stimindex.html

This doctor was involved in to prosicution against the drug company.

As many here know, I am a physician and am intimately involved in the field. Now, to address your quoted lawsuits:

So, the point is that Ritalin is dangerous and long term studies have not been completed to demonstrate safety? Many drugs are dangerous, and most new drugs on the market today don't have long term studies to demonstrate safety. For each bad study that results in lawsuits, there are good studies and even more important, the clinical experience of psychiatrists. Some kids and adults respond well and others don't? Who argues that? I see no compelling evidence there that it is overprescribed (though it may be). Yes, there is potential for abuse. Yes, if taken not in accordance with reccommendations, it is dangerous. That doesn't make it less of a drug or less effective in those who benefit from it. Reports like that lawsuit often serve to cause irrational fears of drugs that can be extremely helpful to people.

[welfareloser]

I'm not saying that thare aren't many people treated as outpatients that do not need antidepresants. But I do believe they are heavily overprescribed..

and this "belief" is based on what? do even know someone who doggedly continues to take a psychiatric drug that does them no good?


The Rittilin scandal being a prime example. Too many people doped up their kids .

scandal? really? have you ever met a kid who was on ritalin and shouldn't be... or is this just another "belief?"

i've met plenty of kids on ritalin. and other drugs. and in each and every case, from the type-a personality professional mom to the trailer-park wage-slave mom, it was an anguishing decision. you worry about as-yet undiscovered long-term effects. you worry about side-effects. mostly, you worry about the sneers from others. but you endure when the medication helps your child.

i'm sure there are parents who have demanded drugs because of their desires rather than their children's needs... all i know is that i've never met these parents. and i've never met anyone who has met these parents, either. i don't understand why so many people seem to think it's an epidemic... it really does seem like a case of hype overblowing the interesting anomaly... 14 tv stations report for two weeks about a single shark attack, and millions avoid the water :shrug:



Prozac is passed out like candy. It was being used for situaltional problems. That's not right.

"not right?" what, exactly, is wrong about it? let's say hordes of people are using it for "situational" only problems... and it helps them. and that's "wrong?" why? i think those taking it are better equipped to decide what is right or wrong for their lives.




imho, what's "not right" is judging others based on your individual experience with a similar (or not-so-similar) problem :hmm: ...


A significant portion of my life was spent living like that exerpt quoted above. I got through it without medication. I learned that you take a day at a time and worked at adjusting your behavior to live a better life.

that's great that it all worked out for you. you don't know how anyone else felt, though. others may have been in significantly worse shape than you.


I think I have a pretty good handle on what depression is. ... You keep trudging along and after a while, a few days, a few months, things get easier again for a while.

sounds like you have a pretty good handle on what depression is for you. for many, simply trudging for a few months doesn't do much.


I wasn't seriously imbalanced like a bi-polar person though, just mildly depressed.

some people are seriously imbalanced. some people are "just" mildly depressed. some moderately. some majorly.


I would venture to guess that most people taking these medications have coping problems they need to learn to deal with. Taking medication just makes it so they don't have to do it. That's a bad thing.

and this guess would be based on what? seriously, i think it'd be a good idea for you to really examine your views here. and with all due respect, do you really know anything at all about the effects of the meds you're talking about? they don't paint a plastic smile on your face. they most certainly do not "make it so they don't have to learn to deal with their coping problems." this "bad thing" you imagine simply doesn't exist. the medications help many become more able to face their problems.


look at it this way. rotator cuff injury. pretty common in older women when the catche themselves after a fall. the shoulder pain can really suck, and it can last FOREVER. literally. until death, if not treated. treatment often consits of taking an anti-inflammatory drug ... once you get teh inflammation to calm down, the healing can begin; in many cases, you're fine in a few months, and can stop the anti-inflammatory drug, which didn't heal the problem, but got an obstacle out of the way to allow natural healing to begin.

same with ssri's for situational depression. why the hub-bub? nobody's throwing tomatoes at those who don't work through a shoulder injury without ibuprofen :shrug: you can do it eitehr way. some people may prefer to do it without a pill. good for them. some people may prefer or need the assistance of a pill... why sneer?



The 50% mark was a random number picked but I do believe to some extent I am not far off. Approximately every decade or so, the amount of people diagnosed with mental illness has doubled (actually its gone up more than that). I presume that just from the amount of police reports of people with mental illnesses which hovers about 80,000. It was 20,000 in 1980. I won't sell you on hard facts cause I am not a researcher. The one thing I can probably assume is that mental illnesses are on the rise and with no apparent reason. .

first off... you think 50% of people are taking ssri's that don't help them... because of an increase in diagnoses of mental illnesses?

two problems here. first problem: do you really think that someone who takes an ssri that doesn't help them will continue to take it? have you met anyone who has done that? i know a couple people who tried an antidepressant, didn't like the effect, and quit. simple. you move on.

second problem: think back to your childhood (don't know how long ago that was for you, so this may or may not be a decent illustrative technique :P ). were there any kids in your neighborhood who went to special ed? or didn't go to school at all? i remember a couple (this is 20+ years ago.) one, i'm pretty sure, was in the autism spectrum. one had some sort of anxiety disorder. never diagnosed. don't know that the parents ever tried to get a diagnosis, either. there was just "something wrong." they went untreated.

if those two kids were 7 years old today, they'd have a diagnosis, therapy, possibly a medication, and they'd be in regular school with the rest of us.

(and one more thing... you don't have to be a researcher to have hard facts. the researchers publish their studies for all of us to read. ;) )



now, i do agree with you that there is a general trend toward pathologizing smaller and smaller problems, and narrowing the window of "normal." i don't see, in the mental health field, where it has become a problem worthy of revolting against (or even a problem at all.) (i run head-first into this trend in the whole "your baby should be able to do everything on this list by this WEEK of development or else!" trend... but that's another story :hihi: ) it is a trend, and it may become a problem... but honestly, as far as i can see, and across the board, the people who are saying "this country has too many anti-depressants for bad reasons and it's wrong!" cannot quantify the "too many," cannot point at any person they've ever met who is on them for "bad reasons," and incorporate massive falsehoods about what the drugs actually do into the reasons why their use is "wrong."


one last bit o food for thought... i think a lot of people are getting caught up in the fear of "the unnatural." f*** with my brain?!?!? it ain't natural!!!!

humans were designed to live for about 30 years, with daily life-or-death struggles. our entire stress-response system is designed for a lifestyle that does not exist in this country.

nowadays, we like to keep things running smoothly for 70+ years. evolution hasn't quite caught up with us there. brushing our teeth isn't natural, but we like to have our teeth for as long as we can, and they sure go to he** if we don't do something unnatural about it.

we no longer have big toothy things trying to eat us all teh time; we no longer have to worry about starving to death in the night if we don't work hard during the day. but our stress response systems are still primed to act as if driving, making money, having status symbols, are more important than they really are. we're living an unnatural life; is it really so shocking that some people may benefit from "unnatural" techniques to calm stress, anxiety, etc? there's no way to NOT have a job and own a car these days. you're simply not allowed to live that way. you have to engage in the rat race in some capacity. and it messes with your head; some more than others... and keep in mind, this is a head that wasn't designed to live past the ubiquitous "mid-life crisis."

i sincerely hope that nobody is going to respond to this by advocating a return to the caves with sharpened sticks in hand :P

anyway, just my random thoughts... the people who like to claim "every woman can breastfeed, it's NATURAL!!!!" and heap scorn upon women who wimp out and bottlefeed, who sneer at women who claim that they "couldn't" do it... are forgetting that 90% of infants died before their first year not too long ago, and some of that was because breastfeeding doesn't always work. i think there's something similar going on with those who heap scorn on people who "wimp out" and take an antidepressant. if you can work it all out, great. please remember that there are people out there who aren't as lucky as you. everybody has things wrong with their body. brain physiology, amount of neurotransmitters, functionality of receptors, and other nervous system issues are no exception. bottom line: you don't know what might be wrong with the next guy. so sneering at him for his wimpy use of ssri's is like the pretty girl feeling morally superior to the ugly girl. it's like telling the guy in the wheelchair to be a man and drag himself on his knuckles.

[Grimm]

scandal? really? have you ever met a kid who was on ritalin and shouldn't be... or is this just another "belief?"
It would take me hours to respond to all the quotes directed at me, so I will address one point.

Yes, I know a kid that was on ritalin and shouldn't have been. His father took him off of it when he found out that the study reccomending it to a much larger group of kids than was necissary was falsified.

[welfareloser]

It would take me hours to respond to all the quotes directed at me, so I will address one point.

Yes, I know a kid that was on ritalin and shouldn't have been. His father took him off of it when he found out that the study reccomending it to a much larger group of kids than was necissary was falsified.

sorry to be argumentative, but this really isn't nitpicky...

a) he's not on it, and
b) that doesn't mean he shouldn't have been on it.

he was on it because he had problems. did it help the problems? if not, the attempt to help the kid through his problems failed, and he would have been taken off the drug regardless of which study said what. just because sometimes a doc chooses a med and it doesn't work is no reason to decry the act of prescribing them. given that we can never know exactly what is going on in someone's body, and all of medicine is a matter of differential diagnosis... playing the odds, trial and error.

if he had a problem and the drug helped, there was no reason for the father to take him off the drug; whether or not a recommendation for a group is valid becomes irrelevant when you know for a fact that it works (or doesn't work) for an individual. :shrug:

if he got put on the drug and the drug caused no improvement, the doc would take him off it. period. that study is again irrelevant.

if it DID help his problem, then it's kind of tough to say he "shouldn't" be on it. it's up to the parents to weigh the benefits and risks of that treatment vs alternatives, and decide which route to take. to say that because of that study, the answer to the ritalin question is an unequivocal "shouldn't" is oversimplifying the issue to the point of nonsense.


so i guess i don't see what point you think you've made. you don't seem to know a kid that was on a drug he shouldn't have been on.


since my previous post was so long that you're not going to respond, i'll sum it all up:

lots of people have lots of different problems; none of them are prefectly understood by anyone. drugs can help with certain problems. there is no epidemic of people on drugs that are harming rather than helping.

people/docs who try drugs that wind up not working is not evidence of an epidemic... if it doesn't work, you move on. doesn't hurt to try.

more diagnoses is not evidence of national hypochondria... we've always been supremely screwed up; now we just have lots means to help.

claiming that people - either an individual or a group (like "most people on antidepressants") are on drugs for the "wrong" reasons is just something people like to say for reasons they cannot define.

antidepressants do not help one to evade or ignore situational or personality problems. period. that's not an opinion; that's a fact.

saying "i know depression; i got through it without pills" doesn't mean you know someone else's depression... or their needs, their abilities, their deficiencies.

[Grimm]

Well, I suppose we will have to wait and see. I suspect that a vast majority of the population will be on one type of anti-depresant/psychotropic drug or another in a few decades.

[welfareloser]

Well, I suppose we will have to wait and see. I suspect that a vast majority of the population will be on one type of anti-depresant/psychotropic drug or another in a few decades.

that's an interesting comment. wait and see what? we're talking about whether or not the contention that "many people are on drugs for bad reasons" is unfounded. waiting isn't going to change their reasons. if you just mean that someday a great many people will be on drugs for bad reasons, even though they aren't now... i'd have to bet against you on that one. it's not the case now; why would it become the case in a few decades? the same things will hold true... nobody's going to want to be on a drug that has no effect, and people will continue to evaluate for themselves whether the positive effects outweigh the potential risks... not to mention the fact that, as medical knowledge advances, we are able to develop drugs with fewer side effects and risks... and the next few decades are not going to bring drugs that allow people to wimp out, ignore their problems, etc, any more than the last few decades have :shrug: there are no escapist drugs. (to be more precise, escapist drugs are fun and thus illegal :P ... to be even more precise, the legal ones available by prescription are pretty tightly controlled... you have to be an anomaly like rush limbaugh to get a fat stack of oxycontin or xanax or valium. anyway - these do not get handed out like candy. they get handed out in controlled amounts to those who genuinely need them for rather large problems, unless someone's doing something illegal like doctor-shopping. but i'd file that problem under the same heading as "crack users", not "the kid down the street on ritalin.") anyway... these prescription drugs help to fix small, discrete problems in the functioning of various body systems. they don't make jobs more fun or ex-wives easier to ignore; they don't change personalities. larry is still larry, even after you address his bipolar disorder.

and since a vast majority of the population seems to suddenly go all self-righteous christian-scientist when it comes to anything having to do with the brain, i'd definitely bet a dollar against you on that one ;)

[Houdini]

Well, I suppose we will have to wait and see. I suspect that a vast majority of the population will be on one type of anti-depresant/psychotropic drug or another in a few decades.

First, even if it were true, it doesn't enhance your argument that the drugs are not needed or are overprescribed.

Second, I seriously doubt it. I know you have this expansive, yet unfounded idea that psychotropics are mostly wrong and overprescribed, but I don't see it (and I'm in a position to see it), and you have little to shore up your argument that almost everyone will be taking these meds. Wheew...that was a run-on sentence, sorta.

Third, a big :stupid: to wl! You covered most of my points for me! :)