Big S.U.V.'s Sales Down 43%

[johnnymk]

By DANNY HAKIM

DETROIT, Oct. 3 - The heyday of the giant sport utility vehicle keeps moving farther away as gasoline prices loom larger.

In September, industrywide sales of large S.U.V.'s were down 43 percent from a year earlier, according to Ward's AutoInfoBank. That is particularly bad news for General Motors and the Ford Motor Company, which are dependent on truck-based S.U.V.'s.

Are European automakers ready to get serious about hybrid technology? The Times's Mark Landler looks at the latest trends in the industry.

Last month, G.M.'s overall sales fell 24.2 percent and Ford's declined 20.3 percent, compared with the same month a year earlier.

In contrast, Japanese carmakers reported increases last month, propelled by passenger cars and smaller S.U.V.'s known as crossover vehicles. Toyota's sales rose 10.3 percent, Honda's increased 11.7 percent and Nissan's, 16.4 percent.

Overall auto sales fell 7.9 percent last month, to a seasonally adjusted sales rate equivalent to 16.3 million vehicles if it were maintained for an entire year.

Part of the reason sales cooled is that the domestic automakers are phasing out their employee discount offers, which were mostly used to clear out 2005 models. The companies have also offered the deals on some 2006 model S.U.V.'s and pickup trucks, but have said the discounts will not continue this month, though company officials have been known to change their minds.

With President Bush joining calls for conservation at the pump, automakers are finding that this is not an ideal time to sell their least fuel-efficient models. Gasoline consumption has fallen for four consecutive weeks as Americans cut back, and a wide range of consumer surveys show that at least some Americans are looking to conserve and are changing their minds about what kind of car or truck to buy.

After G.M. and Ford announced their September sales results, Standard & Poor's, citing high gasoline prices, put both companies on negative credit watches for possible downgrades deeper into junk bond territory. S.& P. also noted that G.M. planned to release a new generation of its medium and large S.U.V.'s early next year into what many analysts fear will be an inhospitable market.

"We believe soaring gasoline prices after Hurricanes Katrina and Rita are leading to an accelerating decline in demand for S.U.V.'s," said Scott Sprinzen, a credit analyst at Standard & Poor's, adding that the reception given to G.M.'s new offerings would be critical, given the company's "disproportionate reliance on S.U.V.-related earnings."

For the moment, though, big S.U.V.'s are bearing the brunt of consumer discontent. While sales have been diminishing all year long, September was particularly ugly.

At Ford, sales of the Explorer, Expedition and Lincoln Navigator fell more than 50 percent compared with the same month a year earlier. The company also built its last Excursion in the month, ending production of its largest S.U.V.

At G.M., sales of the Chevrolet Suburban and Tahoe fell more than 50 percent, while the GMC Yukon was down 46 percent and the Cadillac Escalade fell nearly 23 percent, with the supersize Escalade ESV falling 40 percent. Sales of the Hummer H2, made by G.M., fell 32 percent.

The sharp declines come despite heavy spending on discounts. According to a new estimate from the auto tracking firm Edmunds, automakers are spending twice as much on discounts for each large S.U.V. they sell - $4,704 - than the $2,366 overall average vehicle incentive. That is partly mitigated by the fact that the vehicles tend to be more expensive, but only partly.

"Just three years ago, people ignored the fuel economy numbers on the sticker," said Jesse Toprak, an analyst at Edmunds. "Now it's one of the first things people ask about, especially the middle-income families."

Those families have been the core market for large S.U.V.'s.

George Pipas, chief industry sales analyst at Ford, said "sales declines, this year at least, in the traditional S.U.V. segment are becoming the norm, and we expect that to continue to be the case in the near future."

[Merlin]

Good riddance to those gas guzzlers.

[Grimm]

The auto makers had to realize this was going to happen. Took way too long though. It seems that the soccer moms finaly realized they could take their kid to practice with a normal sedan.

Now we just need to figure out a way to make gas station owners stop selling gas to SUV owners. Get those hazards off the road.

[Cubsfan]

Man, am I glad I traded in my Grand Cherokee in on an Altima in May...

[Grimm]

Man, am I glad I traded in my Grand Cherokee in on an Altima in May...
Just think about how bad the trade in value is gonna tank on SUVs now.

[johnnymk]

Now we just need to figure out a way to make gas station owners stop selling gas to SUV owners. Get those hazards off the road.

Very funny. But I think they realize by now that they have bought a pig in a poke, especially with their nearly $100 fills at the pump.

[Cubsfan]

Just think about how bad the trade in value is gonna tank on SUVs now.
Actually, that's exactly why I did it. I don't drive enough for the gas prices to make a huge dent in my budget, but I really didn't want to take the hit on the trade in value for waiting.

[Merlin]

Now we just need to figure out a way to make gas station owners stop selling gas to SUV owners. Get those hazards off the road.
Given the gasoline panic here in the south after the hurricane, I wonder how far off gas rationing would have been. That would have made a huge difference. Imagine what it would be like for those vehicles if they only got 10 gallons per week.

[Kevster]

Just think about how bad the trade in value is gonna tank on SUVs now.

When the market for these behemoths completely tanks I might just buy one so I can beat the crap out of it on a 4x4 trail or two... but then again they really weren't made to do that either. Ahh screw it - send them all to the scrapheap.

[DarkFury]

When the market for these behemoths completely tanks I might just buy one so I can beat the crap out of it on a 4x4 trail or two... but then again they really weren't made to do that either. Ahh screw it - send them all to the scrapheap.
Maybe if you buy a real Hummer, you can do that. :heh:

Just be ready to shell out a fortune for when you do. :D

[Airencracken]

SUV's can suck it! Viva la hybrids baby!

[Cubsfan]

SUV's can suck it! Viva la hybrids baby!
What about a hybrid SUV? Would your head just explode?

[Airencracken]

Nah, they are better, but no where near the 1337|\|355 of my prius.

[Svyn]

People are so narrow minded at times... :rolleyes:

[DarkFury]

People are so narrow minded at times... :rolleyes:
Now the question is... which narrow minded people are you referring to in this particular instance? :D

[Sirrich3]

Hybrids!!!!!

[Airencracken]

People are so narrow minded at times... :rolleyes:


Sorry wrong. It's not narrow mindedness it's a fact. A hybrid SUV weighs more more than my prius. No doubt about it. Thus it's fuel economy will suffer. Thus my prius will have better mileage (until technology surpasses it, at which point a prius like vehicle will have better mpg than the newer hybrid suvs) sorry you can't beat the laws of physics. When something is more massive it takes more energy to move.

Q.E.D. pwned.

[Svyn]

Sorry wrong. It's not narrow mindedness it's a fact. A hybrid SUV weighs more more than my prius. No doubt about it. Thus it's fuel economy will suffer. Thus my prius will have better mileage (until technology surpasses it, at which point a prius like vehicle will have better mpg than the newer hybrid suvs) sorry you can't beat the laws of physics. When something is more massive it takes more energy to move.

Q.E.D. pwned.

Don't get your panties in a bunch. Way to take what I said right to heart, to be honest I wasn't even talking about what you said. I was talking about the people here who are posting 'down with the gas guzzlers'. Thanks for pointing out the obvious though.

As to the people who are against the gas guzzlers, I agree there are people out there who do not need to drive a SUV every day of their life. <sarcasm>It adds more pollutants, and consumes 3x more fuel, it can crush a car in a single blow, and is the pure evil vehicle on the road. We should all carpool in hybrid / public transportation and sing kum-by-ya at lunch for 30 minutes. </sarcasm>

Wake up, reality check. If someone can afford to do something they will, get over it stop trying to tell everyone how to run their life, and how it ruins yours. Mind your own business unless your the one doing hits off their tail pipe. The world has survived from when the majority of vehicles got 13 mpg or less every day for how many years? Yes, there were less of them but mother nature will take care of checks and balances when they get way out of round. Public transportation has a long way to go before it’s accepted by more people.

I have a SUV, a sports car and a bike. With the rising gas prices I have left the SUV sit in the drive way because the bike was cheaper to run. I love riding the bike; it honestly is more relaxing and enjoyable where I am. Hell I think everyone should ride bikes on nice days, which would sure hit OPEC hard, everyone getting 35+ mpg a few days out of a week. I get 42 mpg on an 86 Kawasaki spectre 550, it’s not a screaming bike it’s not a pretty bike but it surely saves me money every day I ride it.

What happens when winter hits? What about having to pull that trailer with hay, building supplies, yard mulch? What happens when you need to take 7 people in a vehicle with their luggage? What about hauling that boat to the lake? I don't see these being feasible options with a hybrid with current technology (yes you may be thinking chime in diesel, and I can agree with you I love diesels). For most families in America they cannot afford to buy a diesel truck (since most suv's are not available with this option) and let it sit for these occasions. This is where the suv comes in, its not as large as a truck in most cases, it can carry the people you need it to, and can do some of the jobs listed above when asked.

Why not have pure electric cars? It is more efficient to have one large power plant manufacturing energy than 150,000 vehicles sitting in traffic every day burning gas for hours on end. I would drive an electric vehicle to and from work every day if I could and it would be cost effective. The whole electric power grid would have to be restructured to handle the charging load of each vehicle, and this is my opinion why hybrids are being pushed now.

I would drive a hybrid, I would drive a diesel, I would drive an electric vehicle, I would drive a gas vehicle. I have no problem with any of the above, and unfortunately the most cost effective right now for me is the last one.

[LegendKiller]

Don't get your panties in a bunch. Way to take what I said right to heart, to be honest I wasn't even talking about what you said. I was talking about the people here who are posting 'down with the gas guzzlers'. Thanks for pointing out the obvious though.

As to the people who are against the gas guzzlers, I agree there are people out there who do not need to drive a SUV every day of their life. <sarcasm>It adds more pollutants, and consumes 3x more fuel, it can crush a car in a single blow, and is the pure evil vehicle on the road. We should all carpool in hybrid / public transportation and sing kum-by-ya at lunch for 30 minutes. </sarcasm>

Wake up, reality check. If someone can afford to do something they will, get over it stop trying to tell everyone how to run their life, and how it ruins yours. Mind your own business unless your the one doing hits off their tail pipe. The world has survived from when the majority of vehicles got 13 mpg or less every day for how many years? Yes, there were less of them but mother nature will take care of checks and balances when they get way out of round. Public transportation has a long way to go before it’s accepted by more people.

I have a SUV, a sports car and a bike. With the rising gas prices I have left the SUV sit in the drive way because the bike was cheaper to run. I love riding the bike; it honestly is more relaxing and enjoyable where I am. Hell I think everyone should ride bikes on nice days, which would sure hit OPEC hard, everyone getting 35+ mpg a few days out of a week. I get 42 mpg on an 86 Kawasaki spectre 550, it’s not a screaming bike it’s not a pretty bike but it surely saves me money every day I ride it.

What happens when winter hits? What about having to pull that trailer with hay, building supplies, yard mulch? What happens when you need to take 7 people in a vehicle with their luggage? What about hauling that boat to the lake? I don't see these being feasible options with a hybrid with current technology (yes you may be thinking chime in diesel, and I can agree with you I love diesels). For most families in America they cannot afford to buy a diesel truck (since most suv's are not available with this option) and let it sit for these occasions. This is where the suv comes in, its not as large as a truck in most cases, it can carry the people you need it to, and can do some of the jobs listed above when asked.

Why not have pure electric cars? It is more efficient to have one large power plant manufacturing energy than 150,000 vehicles sitting in traffic every day burning gas for hours on end. I would drive an electric vehicle to and from work every day if I could and it would be cost effective. The whole electric power grid would have to be restructured to handle the charging load of each vehicle, and this is my opinion why hybrids are being pushed now.

I would drive a hybrid, I would drive a diesel, I would drive an electric vehicle, I would drive a gas vehicle. I have no problem with any of the above, and unfortunately the most cost effective right now for me is the last one.



I guess as long as nobody should care what anybody else is doing, then we should all be able to use Hydro Floro Carbon (whatever those were) aerosols for everything we need. Then we can burn garbage in the landfills too, afterall, who cares?

Social responsibility has to start somewhere. People should care that they are going through a ton of gas and if they don't, then we should make them care by forcing them to.

Yes, this is a free country, but it will be a dead one soon if we don't get our act together.

[Grimm]

I would drive a hybrid, I would drive a diesel, I would drive an electric vehicle, I would drive a gas vehicle. I have no problem with any of the above, and unfortunately the most cost effective right now for me is the last one.
Really?!? I would love to see the cost benifit analysis on that one. I'm betting you didn't do one.
The cost to rent a truck every time you need to haul a boat, mulch or trailer is much less than actualy purchasing and maintaining an expensive SUV.

I don't understand socialy irresponsible people. I just don't get the motivation. It costs you more than you get out of being selfish. Instead of making everyone pay the long term costs of wastefull vehicals, the cost in repairing the envirnmental damage should be included in the vehical's initial cost. I don't know why we fail to have any licencing requirements for SUV's and other comercial size vehicals. They are dangerous to people because the drivers are not properly trained to drive them. The extra size and weight is a treat to other drivers, just like tractor-trailers. There should be an additional licence required for them, and it should be expensive to get, just like a comercial licence.

[Svyn]

I guess as long as nobody should care what anybody else is doing, then we should all be able to use Hydro Floro Carbon (whatever those were) aerosols for everything we need. Then we can burn garbage in the landfills too, afterall, who cares?

Social responsibility has to start somewhere. People should care that they are going through a ton of gas and if they don't, then we should make them care by forcing them to.

Yes, this is a free country, but it will be a dead one soon if we don't get our act together.

Everything in moderation. Way to jump off the deep end! :rolleyes:

Look at the amount of oil bi-products wasted by spills, carelessness, and other neglect. How much ecological damage does that cause? Don't only point fingers at motors.

[LegendKiller]

Everything in moderation. Way to jump off the deep end! :rolleyes:

Look at the amount of oil bi-products wasted by spills, carelessness, and other neglect. How much ecological damage does that cause? Don't only point fingers at motors.


It isn't jumping off of the deep end, it is reality. We as Americans are the ones that have jumped off of the deep end by not actually thinking of what we are doing to the environment. *EVERY* other developed country in the world is more responsible than we are. NO country's inhabitants think it's cool to own a 7 passanger vehicle getting 13mi/gal and drive it EVERYWHERE. NO other country's people think they have a *RIGHT* to fvck up the environment however they want, damn the consequences.

Using other screw up's isn't a good way to deflect criticism of your own screwups. Most industrial accidents are caused by people like you, the whole "I don't care, it doesn't directly affect me and it is my *right* to do whatI want" stupid attitude is getting us in trouble.

Then, to go and say "Well, there were cars in the past that got 13mi/gal". Well, no crap, but now there are 10x as many and we drive 3x as much, so we are polluting 30x as much as we did before and you are PROUD of it!!!!


It is this arrogance that pisses the rest of the world off. This idea that Americans have some kind of devine right to do what they want to the only thing keeping us alive. I am, by far, not a tree hugger. However, I realize that people are lazy morons who don't care how they are treating a limited resource. They don't care that within 200 years we could all be in covered shelters because the sun is just too strong with the depleted ozone.

Sure, it's not me or you, but it is our progeny that will suffer. However, all anybody could care about is their brand new Excursion and how nice it is with it's shiney bigass rims and that massive V8.

It's really sad that there are too many people like you. Diffusion of responsbility is very high in this country and isn't likely to drop.

[Svyn]

Really?!? I would love to see the cost benifit analysis on that one. I'm betting you didn't do one.
The cost to rent a truck every time you need to haul a boat, mulch or trailer is much less than actualy purchasing and maintaining an expensive SUV.

I don't understand socialy irresponsible people. I just don't get the motivation. It costs you more than you get out of being selfish. Instead of making everyone pay the long term costs of wastefull vehicals, the cost in repairing the envirnmental damage should be included in the vehical's initial cost. I don't know why we fail to have any licencing requirements for SUV's and other comercial size vehicals. They are dangerous to people because the drivers are not properly trained to drive them. The extra size and weight is a treat to other drivers, just like tractor-trailers. There should be an additional licence required for them, and it should be expensive to get, just like a comercial licence.

The cost and expense of driving to and from the rental place, having to plan each outing. What happens if an emergency comes up? For some people it may be cost effective, but for myself it is not.

While we are at it lets not forget the kids that drive tri-cycles into the street. Maybe while we are at it, kids and adults should be liscenced to ride their quad's, dirtbike's, go-cart's, lawn tractors, and leaf blowers? There will always be people buying vehicles that don't properly know how to drive them. There are too many variables in each circumstance here.

[Svyn]

Quick to start the insults, can’t keep the conversation as a debate? I must have hit a nerve. Keep them coming though, it helps your validity. Say what makes you feel better!

I’m glad you have facts for the pollution is up 30 fold. Yea as an American I am proud to filth up the world and make it a dark deep place so one day there will be no earth. :rolleyes: That’s why I drive a more fuel efficient, and less pollutant vehicle? I must be evil because I own an SUV, ah yes.

Funny you should mention Excursion because they are offered in a diesel, and can see 20+mpg. Which I don’t see as something someone would drive every day, but for those occasions that’s much better than the gas counterparts. Honestly most people that are pimping out their rides are Caddy’s and Navigator’s, which don’t offer a diesel choice.

I can see your anger. Try contacting your state representative and see how far you get. Hopefully you representative is better than the one we have here.

[LegendKiller]

Quick to start the insults, can’t keep the conversation as a debate? I must have hit a nerve. Keep them coming though, it helps your validity. Say what makes you feel better!

I’m glad you have facts for the pollution is up 30 fold. Yea as an American I am proud to filth up the world and make it a dark deep place so one day there will be no earth. :rolleyes: That’s why I drive a more fuel efficient, and less pollutant vehicle? I must be evil because I own an SUV, ah yes.

Funny you should mention Excursion because they are offered in a diesel, and can see 20+mpg. Which I don’t see as something someone would drive every day, but for those occasions that’s much better than the gas counterparts. Honestly most people that are pimping out their rides are Caddy’s and Navigator’s, which don’t offer a diesel choice.

I can see your anger. Try contacting your state representative and see how far you get. Hopefully you representative is better than the one we have here.


A stupid argument or point doesn't mean a stupid person.


Wow, diesel. Good one. Too bad it has more particulate matter than gas engines.

What's next?

[DarkFury]

Wow, diesel. Good one. Too bad it has more particulate matter than gas engines.

What's next?
Bio-diesel. :D

[Merlin]

I just dislike the SUVs because they clog up the roads I'm trying to drive on. Have you ever been stuck behind one of those things on a curving freeway offramp? Takes forever. Get them outta the way and watch traffic move 100 times better.

[Svyn]

I just dislike the SUVs because they clog up the roads I'm trying to drive on. Have you ever been stuck behind one of those things on a curving freeway offramp? Takes forever. Get them outta the way and watch traffic move 100 times better.

I really don't see how SUV's "clog up" the road more than a hybrid / truck / car.

[Airencracken]

I like your electric theory. Too bad you haven't taken transmission loss into account, which makes pure electric vehicles the most polluting cars on the road. :rolleyes:

An electric van is responsible for 763 percent more sulfur dioxide emissions than a highly efficient fuel-burning van, because coal is used to fire many electric plants, according to the General Accounting Office.

http://www.ncpa.org/ea/eajf96/eajf96n.html

Get your facts straight.

[Svyn]

A stupid argument or point doesn't mean a stupid person.


Wow, diesel. Good one. Too bad it has more particulate matter than gas engines.

What's next?

Cleaner and cleaner diesel engines, so far they have used low sulfur diesel, that has helped by up to 90% less particulates, and dropping the NOx levels up to 50%. It may still have higher particulate matter than gas, but it is one step in helping reduce the massive oil consumption. The efficiency of these engines can show a 40% increase in fuel milage. Only the future can tell us what is next.

[Svyn]

I like your electric theory. Too bad you haven't taken transmission loss into account, which makes pure electric vehicles the most polluting cars on the road. :rolleyes:

An electric van is responsible for 763 percent more sulfur dioxide emissions than a highly efficient fuel-burning van, because coal is used to fire many electric plants, according to the General Accounting Office.

http://www.ncpa.org/ea/eajf96/eajf96n.html

Get your facts straight.

While we are on the subject of power plants, we should look at more efficient ways to create power in this manner too. The best way to make electricity now is Nuclear; it creates no greenhouse gasses (beating out Natural Gas and oil), no carbon particles, and the waste it creates is a tiny fraction of Coal (which actually creates MORE radioactive waste per MW, but disperses it over the countyside instead of in a nice, portable, concentrated chunk you can keep out of the water supply).

Nuclear also has the potential to meet a significant percentage of demand (sorry, solar, wind, and biomass can only be niche solutions with current technology). The only "gotchya" is what to do with the high level radioactive waste, and geologic depository.

[johnnymk]

Until America has an aggregate fuel consumption policy, everybody's idea about what is the best mode of burning fuel in transportation, home heating/cooling and industrial heating/cooling is just one's personal preference.

There are way too many variables: how long you spend idling in traffic, distance to/from work, number of personnel per vehicle, what you do with your leisure time, etc., etc. In addition, what kind of emissions are we concerned about: CO, CO2, NOx, hydrocarbons, particulates?

I could make an argument that a single person who commutes 150 miles per day in a hybrid vehicle is less responsible than a city dweller driving a SUV with his neighbor who commutes 10 blocks to work.

Add another factor: China's energy usage is incredibly inefficient. I read in Business Week several months ago that their fuel efficiency just in powerplants is 1/6 or 1/8 of America's with a corresponding pollution rate. I don't remember the exact numbers but the difference was dramatic. And just wait until a population 4-5 times greater than ours all want to drive somewhere in a self propelled vehicle.

[Merlin]

I really don't see how SUV's "clog up" the road more than a hybrid / truck / car.
You ever get stuck behind one on a road with curves?

[dRu168]

I really don't see how SUV's "clog up" the road more than a hybrid / truck / car.

I hate driving behind SUVs, doesn't help that most of them come tinted. Can't see worth a crap. It sucks!!! I HATE TEH SUVS!!!!11111!1