RSS: Girlfriends mom

[Yossarian]

My girl's mom is a rather devout Christian. Today she told her mom that I am an atheist. Her mom then proceeded to threaten to not pay her 21k a year tuition and/or kick her out of the house because shes dating me.

I'd say she likes me, what do you think?

[MikeD]

Heh, she wouldn't be this lady would she?

http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93710&highlight=eyes

:eek3:

[Grimm]

She's not a devout Christian. She is a poser Christain. A real Christian would send her daughter on a mission to bring you into the church.
"No, you don't have to convert, but it would be nice is you showed that you care enough about my daughter to come to church with her"

[nickel]

not all real Christians are into converting people Grimm.

[MikeD]

A real Christian would send her daughter on a mission to bring you into the church.

OK, we're threadjacking now.

Umm, I think that's a slanted view of "real Christian". I don't think we all must try and get others "...into the church".

:shrug:

[BigJon]

Well...it sounds like she really didn't take that too well. Yeah, in a perfect world, she'd just love you anyways...and yes kind of like Grimm said, she would probably try to bring you into Jesus. But it does sound like her views on Christianity are a little skewed. Most "devout christians" aren't really as "devout" as they think they are.

Have you thought about sitting down and having a talk with all of them? Why did your girl just blurt out that you were an atheist?

[Yossarian]

Have you thought about sitting down and having a talk with all of them? Why did your girl just blurt out that you were an atheist?


her mom asked what my views are. i did offer to sit and talk with them, but they are an hour and a half away from my school, and i can't leave just yet. that and i think things need to cool down before we have that chat

[kgsilvas]

My girl's mom is a rather devout Christian. Today she told her mom that I am an atheist. Her mom then proceeded to threaten to not pay her 21k a year tuition and/or kick her out of the house because shes dating me. I'd say she likes me, what do you think?

Hmmmm. Not so much I'd guess. How long have you and your girlfriend been together?

[Winston]

if i raised my daughter as christian and found out her boyfriend was atheist i wouldnt want her seeing him either.JMHO

[brainsmile]

Maybe she's actually opposed to tall people.

[Thesifer]

I'm agnostic, but I dated a girl in high school that was a devout catholic, and her mom never had a problem with it. Later on they ended up not going to church anymore and changing their religion , so that probably had something to do with it, but either way, she wasn't scared of me.

[cheapie]

if i raised my daughter as christian and found out her boyfriend was atheist i wouldnt want her seeing him either.JMHO


:stupid:

[Memo]

Eh, she maybe a Christian but she's also a human, so when she spends her life raising her daughter a certain way and develops an image of what she would like to have her daughter to be and that is threatened by some guy, she's going to be upset. I'd give it time. If you really care about the girl then stick wiht her and try to show her parents that you treat her right. If that doesn't end up working, then I'd say it's not worth to continue the relationship.

[cheapie]

the bigger question is why you would want to get involved with someone whos paradigm is in direct contrast to yours?

[Butch]

the bigger question is why you would want to get involved with someone whos paradigm is in direct contrast to yours?

The daughter's is not in direct contrast . . . it is the mom's that is. While the mom may want her daughter to date a christian, it is not fair for her to demand it and hold her daughter's tuition/home over her head in order to make it happen.

That is purely selfish and ridiculous imho.

[cheapie]

if the daughter is a christian then her outlook is vastly different than that of an athiest. fair? as a parent you can stipulate the conditions under which your child lives with you and is supported by you.

[MikeD]

The daughter's is not in direct contrast . . . it is the mom's that is. While the mom may want her daughter to date a christian, it is not fair for her to demand it and hold her daughter's tuition/home over her head in order to make it happen.

That is purely selfish and ridiculous imho.

:agree:

One item of note is that Yossarian didn't say how involved the relationship was. Dating for a few weeks? Months? Years? Engaged? Unless they're deeply involved (i.e., possible marriage), I think it's wrong for her to hang the tuition over the girl's head. Education is for a lifetime, relationships often come and go.

With that said, it's worth delving more into if the relationship is to continue. I, as a parent, would have some concern if my child was going to marry someone whose views were different to that extreme.

Whatever the case, good luck bro. Hope it works out.

[Butch]

I don't agree that a christian's outlook is necessarily vastly different from an atheist's - everything is a matter of degrees.

Just because the girl was raised by a very christian mom does not mean that she shares her beliefs (at least not with the same conviction) - in fact, I would think this situation pretty much confirms that.

Now, of course the mom has the right to do what she is doing, but I still believe it is selfish and ridiculous.

[cheapie]

I don't agree that a christian's outlook is necessarily vastly different from an atheist's - everything is a matter of degrees.



what? they are by definition in direct contrast!

[Butch]

what? they are by definition in direct contrast!

In my view, it's not so black and white to be able to be considered a 'definition' situation . . .

It all depends upon how highly you value religious beliefs when trying to define who you are.

Personally, I don't consider my beliefs (or lack of beliefs) in a higher being to be one of my defining characteristics . . . the whole thing doesn't really matter much to me . . . certainly not so much so that I would consider someone who felt differently to be diametrically opposed.

Now, of course there are people who very highly prioritize their religious beliefs in defining themselves - I don't doubt that we would have very little common ground. However, for the vast majority of the population, I think I would have enough common ground with them to not consider them to be from an opposite paradigm.

All a matter of degrees if ya ask me . . .

[cheapie]

lol. but you don't define yourself as an athiest as yoss does. or a christian as his gf likely does.

if you are a christian the most important thing for you to do is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart..."

as an athiest you don't believe in a God.

those are pretty contrary don't you think?

if you claim to be an athiest but have no firm view regarding the existance of a God, or claim to be a Christian but don't subscribe to what Jesus said was the most important piece of following Him, then I would submit that you are neither an atheist nor a Christian.

and believe me, i'm not judging anyone. i am NOT claiming to always follow the Bible to the letter. i'm just saying that there's no way to reconcile the two diametrically opposed views.

[Butch]

I consider myself a true atheist . . . what am I supposed to do other than not believe in a higher being? . . . but if I were to identify the traits or characteristics that I feel most clearly define who I am, my atheism would fall somewhere higher than my feelings on Guns 'N Roses and somewhere lower than my feelings on Capitalism and Democracy.

As far as I am concerned, someone being religious is a bit more opposite to me than someone who likes the Backstreet Boys more than GNR . . .

Now, it seems you have a fairly strict definition of christian - but I think most people in the US would self-identify as christian and very well may not meet your definition. I suppose those people may be the religious equivalents of my atheism in your mind. If that's the case, then by your definition of christian and athiest, I suppose you are correct that they are opposite. That feeling also seems to apply to the gf's mom. However, it very well may not apply to Yoss and the girl.

I'm not trying to judge either . . . just noting that people have different priorities and value certain opinions or feelings more highly than others. Not everyone considers their religion or lack of religion to be their most important character trait . . . so, I doubt they would consider opposite beliefs on that issue to be sufficient to consider someone from a completely opposite paradigm. That's all I'm trying to say :)

[cheapie]

if it's ok, i'm going to rely on the Bible's definition of a Christian rather than an atheists, fellow apexer or otherwise. :hihi:

[ialsohaveadream]

Eh, she maybe a Christian but she's also a human, so when she spends her life raising her daughter a certain way and develops an image of what she would like to have her daughter to be and that is threatened by some guy, she's going to be upset.
Yeah, she could very well have been just as revolted if you were black. I think it's more that what she believes about her daughter is shaken than what she thinks of you, Yoss.

if the daughter is a christian then her outlook is vastly different than that of an athiest. fair?
Really, only in one respect. I've dated an atheist, and it was months before the subject even came up (and only then because she saw me reading a book on religion). Unless you're one of those "There's Jesus and then the rest is just details"-type people, faith really doesn't come up all that much.

as a parent you can stipulate the conditions under which your child lives with you and is supported by you.
Agreed. But considering how old her daughter is, I find it far more likely that the daughter is old enough that she'll either a) rebel against her mother or b) learn to keep such things secret from her mother. Either that, or the daughter will just come to her senses and dump Yoss's ass for other, more legit reasons. :P

[InfiniteNothing]

My girl's mom is a rather devout Christian. Today she told her mom that I am an atheist. Her mom then proceeded to threaten to not pay her 21k a year tuition and/or kick her out of the house because shes dating me.

I'd say she likes me, what do you think?

Here's the bright side: you get to find out if you're worth 21K/yr (+ interest).

On another note, her parents will likely loose a dependant on their tax forms if they don't pay up. If they make bank, it

[LegendKiller]

My fiance's mom doesn't know I am agnostic. If she did she would think I am nuts. Not that she doesn't already think that but the whole religion thing might take her off the deep end.

[InfiniteNothing]

if the daughter is a christian then her outlook is vastly different than that of an athiest. fair? as a parent you can stipulate the conditions under which your child lives with you and is supported by you.

You can, but would you risk your hypothetical daughter's education. That seems like going too far.

[cheapie]

lol. if the woman thinks her daughter's soul is in jeopardy then i'm guessing yes....she'd risk the education.

[ShawnLee]

Good for her mom exercising her parental rights. At least this is being discussed. I'm with Cheapie here, Christianity is obviously important enough to her that it be an issue, so Yoss' beliefs are completely opposed to hers by definition.

Now, where Yoss' girlfriend stands on the issue, that's a different story. If she doesn't agree with her mom, then Yoss isn't the problem.

It looks to me like Yoss is just the method through which the mom learned of her daughter's beliefs. Sucks all around, but should lead to some good self-discovery on the mom's and the daughter's parts, and some good discovery in terms of their relationship.

[attgig]

total thread jack by a few people. same on them.. =P

anyways, imo, that sucks. I wish that parents would realize that immediate (aka thoughtless), drastic, & many times empty threats aren't always the way to get a point accross... (i'm sure i'll do it too when I cross that road... *sigh*).


At a certain point, the parents gotta let go - know that they did what they could during the 18+ years of their life in raising them properly, and then be able to let go - trusting in the foundation they laid down, and letting them to live out that inside.

imo, the mom is secondary. are you worth the 21k. are you worth her beliefs. is she worth your beliefs (or lack there of). rubber meets the road.

[LegendKiller]

I have never been a fan of...

"If you don't do what I tell you to do I will...."

This has happened a few times with my family regarding SO's and it pisses me off. People need to stop abusing their power, especially when it comes to weddings, education, or important family events, to get wechat they want.

Also, just because somebody is an Athiest doesn't mean they would impose their will upon somebody else. Steph doesn't believe what I do regarding religion and we get along just fine.

Eventually parents need to cut the apron strings and realize that they should not or will not control their kids' lives.

To use a kids education to manipulate them is even worse since it is holding their future hostage. What if she doesn't leave him? You pretty much shackle your kid to up to 90k in college loans or dropping out of school.

Wow, what have you accomplished then? Your kid will face $650 loan payments/mo for the next 30 years and you have gotten your way?

Or you have manipulated them into making sure they do what *you* want and they are now miserable because their SO didn't fit into your definition of the world.

[cheapie]

to be honest i don't think it's the smartest move either.

but if the girl is a christian, she's definately violated her beliefs. in fact, she's going out with someone her religion calls a fool.

Psalms 53:1

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

:heh: :wavey:

[ialsohaveadream]

to be honest i don't think it's the smartest move either.

but if the girl is a christian, she's definately violated her beliefs. in fact, she's going out with someone her religion calls a fool.
She's also being "unevenly yoked", etc, etc. Of course, if you take a very strict interpretation of the Bible, you'd be inclined to believe you can't have non-Christian friends. Now, I didn't write the thing or anything, but I'm pretty sure that's not what meaning we're supposed to take from it. :)

[cheapie]

:heh::heh::heh::heh:

unequally yoked?

the bible is fairly clear about hooking up w/non-christian spouses. friends and co-workers are a different matter.

[Markel]

...if you take a very strict interpretation of the Bible, you'd be inclined to believe you can't have non-Christian friends. Now, I didn't write the thing or anything, but I'm pretty sure that's not what meaning we're supposed to take from it. :)
Nope.

"I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters; for then you would have to go out of the world." (I Cor. 5:9-10, NASV)

[InfiniteNothing]

Oh man. You're all siners for even posting here. :heh:

[LPMiller]

then neither one of you should even be in this thread, associating with Yos.

[nickel]

then neither one of you should even be in this thread, associating with Yos.
believe me - posting here is really not associating with you. :laugh:
you don't exist in my reality. :P

[Airencracken]

the bigger question is why you would want to get involved with someone whos paradigm is in direct contrast to yours?

Duh, the girl is probably super hot.


The daughter's is not in direct contrast . . . it is the mom's that is. While the mom may want her daughter to date a christian, it is not fair for her to demand it and hold her daughter's tuition/home over her head in order to make it happen.

That is purely selfish and ridiculous imho.


:stupid:

Yoss, do what I did. Convert her. My girlfriend used to be presbyterian. ;)


Y'know what? I wonder what the responses would be like if it were the other way around. What if atheist parents had threatened their daughter for dating a christian boy? (Doubtful) For some reason I wouldn't anticipate all the "Good job on being a parent and being firm!" responses :rolleyes:

[Yossarian]

no, shes still Christian. but we've talked about it ours beliefs beforehand...and we're ok with it

[ialsohaveadream]

Y'know what? I wonder what the responses would be like if it were ipso facto.
Uhhh....I believe the phrase you're looking for is "vice versa".

[cheapie]

:heh: bwahahaha....

[attgig]

She's also being "unevenly yoked", etc, etc. Of course, if you take a very strict interpretation of the Bible, you'd be inclined to believe you can't have non-Christian friends. Now, I didn't write the thing or anything, but I'm pretty sure that's not what meaning we're supposed to take from it. :)

You ever sat down and read [the bible]? Technically, we're not allowed to go to the bathroom.

[cheapie]

no, shes still Christian. but we've talked about it ours beliefs beforehand...and we're ok with it


she's cool with you believing that her whole belief system is a farce and you're cool with her living her life according to a set of standards based on something that's not real?

:thumbup: great foundation for a lasting relationship. good luck with that. :rolleyes:

what i wonder about in these relationships is how the "christian" half can deal with the idea that the person they love, the person they care most about in the whole world is doomed to an eternity of suffering. they respect that and can work out the differences? :spock: either they don't really believe you have to be a Christian to go to heaven, or they're saying they don't care enough about the other person to try and bring them along. either way....:2far:

and before you non-christians :poke: at me and call me an extreme religious nut, realize i'm talking about the most basic of ideas of the religion here.

[attgig]

cheapie...you got it all wrong.

http://www.cafepress.com/datetosave
http://www.cafepress.com/datetosave/477173
http://www.cafepress.com/datetosave/542335

[Airencracken]

Uhhh....I believe the phrase you're looking for is "vice versa".

yeah that'd be it. Whoops.


:heh: bwahahaha....

:rolleyes:

[Airencracken]

:thumbup: great foundation for a lasting relationship. good luck with that. :rolleyes:

and before you non-christians :poke: at me and call me an extreme religious nut, realize i'm talking about the most basic of ideas of the religion here.

Why are you always so damn condescending? :rolleyes: I wish I could be so self-righteous, but I don't know everything. Must be nice.

[johnnymk]

Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers.
For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness?
And what communion has light with darkness?

II Corinthians 6:14

[ialsohaveadream]

Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers.
For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness?
And what communion has light with darkness?

II Corinthians 6:14
Hey, I already beat you to the "unequally yoked" comment. :P

[cheapie]

Why are you always so damn condescending? :rolleyes: I wish I could be so self-righteous, but I don't know everything. Must be nice.


if i sound condescending, then i apologize. i'm trying to be a realist. if we weren't talking about religion i doubt you'd find my comments so offensive.

like mebbe a ELF member and a H3 owner hooking up. or a gloria steinen (sp?) and hugh heffner dating. it's just got problems written all over it.

[attgig]

c'mon...nobody found the tshirts funny?

[attgig]

so, i really didn't want to do this, but, since the thread seems jacked already, i'll join in.

imo, that whole yoked verse.... it never says anything about marriage in there. so, where that line is drawn is open for interpretation. evangelicals would say that marriage definitely falls under the umbrella of being yoked (and perhaps it is the most yoked you can get outside of a spiritual relationship with your diety). most evangelicals would also say that dating is about moving towards marriage, so they put this under that umbrella too. culture doesn't see dating that way, so, it may/may not be.

But, I've done it back in highschool. my parents hated me for it, and threatened all kinds of things. I, being the good son that I am, went behind their backs and continued dating her anyways. I compromised my values, and really suffered from it spiritually. I would never do that again. Speaking from personal experience, I understand the truth of what bible says to be true.

[cheapie]

c'mon...nobody found the tshirts funny?


yeah...they were pretty good. :bow:

[Mommypooh]

I know many couples where one is a Christian and the other is either athiest, agnostic, or some other type of some against Christian. The marriages are working fine and the Christian one is always on their knees about the other coming to know god. I see no problem with it as long as they work out the in and outs of differences. Yes I have a daughter and I would only caution her.

[johnnymk]

I know many couples where one is a Christian and the other is either athiest, agnostic, or some other type of some against Christian. The marriages are working fine and the Christian one is always on their knees about the other coming to know god. I see no problem with it as long as they work out the in and outs of differences. Yes I have a daughter and I would only caution her.

and every Christain woman I know who does not have a Christian husband totally regrets their decision to marry an unbeliever.

I believe that a Christian woman is usually the one who goes into the marriage with an unbeliever thinking that he will change, while a Christian man generally (not always) will be willing to break the relationship for his belief. I know that twice I had to sever two long term relationships because I knew it would end in disaster if I had married them. I was really stupid for continuing the relationships for as long as I did.

[mcs328]

From the marriage counseling and statistics I've been receiving from the church, the divorce rate is the same whether you're both Christians, One Christian + One Unbeliever or Two Non-Christians. You're taking your chances either way.

[Grimm]

and every Christain woman I know who does not have a Christian husband totally regrets their decision to marry an unbeliever.

I believe that a Christian woman is usually the one who goes into the marriage with an unbeliever thinking that he will change, while a Christian man generally (not always) will be willing to break the relationship for his belief. I know that twice I had to sever two long term relationships because I knew it would end in disaster if I had married them. I was really stupid for continuing the relationships for as long as I did.
It reminds me of the old joke, a woman marries a man thinking he will change, a man marries a wonam thinking she will not change.

Considering a relationship with a non-believer is worthwhile. But at some point they will have to come to terms that the relationship can not advance past a certain point unless they accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. You don't convert soomeone by marrying them and then trying to change them. You convert them by showing the love God has for them. Many people are ignorant of this. They haven't actualy seen what it's all about. So, don't abandon the non-believers. Show them what they are missing and invite them. Some will see the light. Others will not. I just don't see the point on giving up on someone before they were given a chance.

[johnnymk]

From the marriage counseling and statistics I've been receiving from the church, the divorce rate is the same whether you're both Christians, One Christian + One Unbeliever or Two Non-Christians. You're taking your chances either way.

That's really sad, isn't it?

[ialsohaveadream]

That's really sad, isn't it?
Sad, but not unexpected. I think modern couples have a much higher expectation of marraige than in the past. You're expected to complement each other emotionally, sexually, and financially from somewhere in your 20s until you die. I'd say that's pretty unrealistic, but there are some exceptions...we just all aspire to be those exceptions. ;)

[angl2b]

I think it is sad that mcs was treated that way - he wasn't given a chance and everything was very unfair to him all because we are getting married - if he was a new Christian/non Christian and walked into the church everyone would of welcomed him with open arms. That is what was wrong.

I tried to not reply to this but I guess I will.

My stepmom has the same perspective - if you are a non-Christian and have no intention of even trying to know who God is she doesn't want you near her daughter. She has told my sister she forbids her to see this guy because of this - regardless of if he is a good person or not. In the long run if they were getting married like mcs and I are - there is going to be a conflict of interest because of the different beliefs.
However I think this is something between the two that is dating/engaged. This is something that the two people involved should discuss in depth and have a good understanding of all that it is involved. In all honesty this was never an issue between mcs and I until the church made a big fuss and made it into an issue.

[mcs328]

It's worse for the people who are in an abusive marriage and can't leave because either their religion or pride/shame prevents them from getting a divorce.

And I agree with Grimm. I've had two pastors close the door on me instead of trying to elighten me when I'm open minded enough to consider acceptance. I don't think JC himself would have acted this way. Maybe I got some bad pastors or ones having a bad day...but shouldn't these guys ask themselves....WWJD?

[cheapie]

I think it is sad that mcs was treated that way - he wasn't given a chance and everything was very unfair to him all because we are getting married - if he was a new Christian/non Christian and walked into the church everyone would of welcomed him with open arms. That is what was wrong.

I tried to not reply to this but I guess I will.

My stepmom has the same perspective - if you are a non-Christian and have no intention of even trying to know who God is she doesn't want you near her daughter. She has told my sister she forbids her to see this guy because of this - regardless of if he is a good person or not. In the long run if they were getting married like mcs and I are - there is going to be a conflict of interest because of the different beliefs.
However I think this is something between the two that is dating/engaged. This is something that the two people involved should discuss in depth and have a good understanding of all that it is involved. In all honesty this was never an issue between mcs and I until the church made a big fuss and made it into an issue.


not to choose your stepmom's side but i don't think whether or not the guy is a good person has anything to do with it. i'm sure there are tons of nice atheists....but i don't want my some hooking up with any of them. it's against our beliefs regardless of how harmless it may seem.

btw, are you a christian and mcs isn't?

[mcs328]

not to choose your stepmom's side but i don't think whether or not the guy is a good person has anything to do with it. i'm sure there are tons of nice atheists....but i don't want my some hooking up with any of them. it's against our beliefs regardless of how harmless it may seem.

btw, are you a christian and mcs isn't?

Yeah....I am a self-described agnostic in favor of the Christian form of God. I agree...you can be a nice anything that matches the teachings of the Bible but that doesn't mean you're Christian. I'm just missing or need clarification on the whole relationship with God thing which is different from not wanting one...I just don't know what it entails. :halo:

[angl2b]

I didn't reply to this forum originally beacause I didn't want to bring it off topic towards mcs and myself.

But yes I am a Christian and he isn't - but that's isn't really true either. He is very much of a Christian except he hasn't fully known Christ - but believes in GOD (not god). I consider him to be a new comer type in a church learning more of Christ and stuff. But in my mind to force someone to accept right away without letting them get to know Christ on their own is uncalled for and especially to accept just to marry two people that isn't right either.

I know my stepmom may be right but I truly believe that to accept Christ is not to exclude those that don't believe. Who's to say the non-christian won't end up believing? There are plenty of christians who claim to be christians and marry another christian and in the end they were both no better than a non-christian.

Man I am opening a real big can of worms huh....

[mcs328]

Let's not threadjack this because this isn't really about me. Let's focus on someone else :) Yes religion is the sticking point but it can easily be a Montigue and Capulet thing or Capitalism versus Communism or Republican versus Democrat. You tend rightly or wrongly so certain characteristics you attach to said faction or viewpoint and think it's not going to work. But if Arnold and Maria can get along (Romeo and Juliet died so that's didn't last too long) then IMO so can Christians and Unbelievers.

Oh and the mom can hold tuition over her daughters head because it's her parental right to do so although I wouldn't like it. What's that Family Guy saying...Although I disagree with what you say I'll defend to the death you're right to say it.

[cheapie]

since you guys are cool and i'll see you in a few weeks i'll reserve comment. ;)

what i've had to face over the last several months is that claiming to be a christian doesn't make me one. doing what Christ commanded me to do is what makes me a Christian.

i would just be careful not to put words in God's mouth. if you believe the Bible is true, then it's pretty hard to escape what the terms of salvation are and who we should hook up with.

[cheapie]

But if Arnold and Maria can get along (Romeo and Juliet died so that's didn't last too long) then IMO so can Christians and Unbelievers.



christians and unbelievers CAN get along. that not what we're talking about unfortunately. we are talking about should a christian violate a major part of their belief system just because it makes life easier.

[Jihforce]

I think you can make things works if you don't put religion to be the foundation of the relationship. Maybe each other's well-beign & family are a better alternative.

[cheapie]

uh-oh. i've got a pm from both mcs and angel. this can't be good.

[Butch]

Now, please understand that I ask this question with honest curiosity . . . I am really interested to hear an answer and am not trying to ask this as flamebait, etc. . . .

To the people who feel it is OK for a girl's mom to enforce restrictions as have been discussed in this thread . . . take this hypothetical . . .

If we were to exchange christian & athiest with white & black, would it still be acceptable for a girl's mom to act this way?

If not, what is the difference between the two situations that makes it acceptable to you?

To be honest, in the end, they just seems to me like two sides of the same coin and I don't see a difference.

[ialsohaveadream]

You can't control your whiteness or blackness...you can control your religious beliefs.

[cheapie]

I think you can make things works if you don't put religion to be the foundation of the relationship. Maybe each other's well-beign & family are a better alternative.


see...that's the problem. christians are supposed to put their relationship w/God first. about their family, friends, job, etc.

the fact that the non-christian people here keep suggesting that religion doesn't have to be a huge part of your life illustrates the potential problems that can exist when believers and non-believers attempt to join their lives together. as Christian, the number one thing that you are commanded to do is love God with all your heart.

if you agree with your spouse to put your relationship, family, kids, etc. above your religious beliefs then you have just violeted the top commandment of the Bible. :shrug:

[cheapie]

You can't control your whiteness or blackness...you can control your religious beliefs.

:stupid:

[mcs328]

uh-oh. i've got a pm from both mcs and angel. this can't be good.

LOL...I know I sent you a PM but now I don't remember what I even wrote except I'll see you in a few for the G|A meetup. :blush:

[Butch]

You can't control your whiteness or blackness...you can control your religious beliefs.

Sorry, but I don't buy that for a second. I couldn't be myself if I 'controlled' my beliefs and 'became' religious . . . I'd be pretending . . .

[mcs328]

I think you can make things works if you don't put religion to be the foundation of the relationship. Maybe each other's well-beign & family are a better alternative.

Uhmm...I think you put religion first if you're Christian. That's fine by me and I would like our 1 kid to be raised Christian. Doesn't bother me at all and yet somehow that answer surprises the pastors coming from my mouth. I don't see the harm at all.

[ialsohaveadream]

Sorry, but I don't buy that for a second. I couldn't be myself if I 'controlled' my beliefs and 'became' religious . . . I'd be pretending . . .
I think you're taking that the wrong way. If you've never been introduced to a certain religion, and then you hear their belief system, you choose whether to accept it or not.

And honestly, a lot of people really are pretending...as anyone who has ever been to a church, temple, or any other religious service can probably attest to.

[angl2b]

uh-oh. i've got a pm from both mcs and angel. this can't be good.


:blush: sorry..... didn't know he PMed you - we didn't do it on purpose..... :sweat:

[angl2b]

Uhmm...I think you put religion first if you're Christian. That's fine by me and I would like our 1 kid to be raised Christian. Doesn't bother me at all and yet somehow that answer surprises the pastors coming from my mouth. I don't see the harm at all.


This is what I meant by talking and understand in depth.
It is also in the Bible that when when a man and a woman marry and stuff they are one.

"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and they will become one flesh"
Genesis 2:24

For this reason I do not believe parents have the right to restrict so much to the children. I think they can guide but the path they choose is theirs - just like we have that freedom to choose to believe or not. I think for the mom to hold tuition against her daughter is a bit extreme.

[Butch]

I think you're taking that the wrong way. If you've never been introduced to a certain religion, and then you hear their belief system, you choose whether to accept it or not.

And honestly, a lot of people really are pretending...as anyone who has ever been to a church, temple, or any other religious service can probably attest to.

But if they are still a good person by all accounts, it feels a bit superficial to me to identify a single difference - religious belief - as a defining characteristic that determines whether they are 'worthy' . . .

I will just admit that I will never understand it.

[Jihforce]

see...that's the problem. christians are supposed to put their relationship w/God first. about their family, friends, job, etc.

the fact that the non-christian people here keep suggesting that religion doesn't have to be a huge part of your life illustrates the potential problems that can exist when believers and non-believers attempt to join their lives together. as Christian, the number one thing that you are commanded to do is love God with all your heart.

if you agree with your spouse to put your relationship, family, kids, etc. above your religious beliefs then you have just violeted the top commandment of the Bible. :shrug:

Right, but in order to find happiness and harmony, one must do whats necessary to make their relationship work. Is putting God first and for most the true path to happiness between two couples? I'm simply not convinced. If you let religion be the dividing issue, then, it will be.

[Jihforce]

You can't control your whiteness or blackness...you can control your religious beliefs.

Tell that to Michael Jackson. :D

[Jihforce]

Uhmm...I think you put religion first if you're Christian. That's fine by me and I would like our 1 kid to be raised Christian. Doesn't bother me at all and yet somehow that answer surprises the pastors coming from my mouth. I don't see the harm at all.

So if you don't, you're not a Christian? Who gets to determine who you are and what you believe?

[Jihforce]

But if they are still a good person by all accounts, it feels a bit superficial to me to identify a single difference - religious belief - as a defining characteristic that determines whether they are 'worthy' . . .

I will just admit that I will never understand it.

Which is why the world will never be in harmony.

[Butch]

:stupid:

[ialsohaveadream]

But if they are still a good person by all accounts, it feels a bit superficial to me to identify a single difference - religious belief - as a defining characteristic that determines whether they are 'worthy' . . .

I will just admit that I will never understand it.
I actually agree with you. I was just stating the "don't date" side's view because I'm very familiar with it. ;)

[johnnymk]

But if they are still a good person by all accounts, it feels a bit superficial to me to identify a single difference - religious belief - as a defining characteristic that determines whether they are 'worthy' . . .

I will just admit that I will never understand it.

What is your definition of a "good person"?

[Winston]

just get to know GOD its all good and free for all. whatta deal! no rebates to fool
with.his deal never expires.U cant loose.oh did i mention the saving he does.
come on hes waiting for YOU.

[ialsohaveadream]

just get to know GOD its all good and free for all. whatta deal! no rebates to fool
with.his deal never expires.U cant loose.oh did i mention the saving he does.
come on hes waiting for YOU.
.....uhhhh......:banghead: There. All gone.

[Winston]

nah he will wait they come back you know

[Butch]

What is your definition of a "good person"?

I wish I could answer a question like that . . . because, I have a feeling if I could . . . I would be rich and happy beyond belief and could make the world a much better place . . .

However, I will say that a belief in a higher being is certainly not a necessary condition for someone to be a 'good person' in my book . . .

I do believe that many of the teachings of religion are also characteristics that I would ascribe to a 'good person' . . . honesty, kindness, etc., however in kind of a chicken v. egg way . . . religion teaches them because they are good . . . they are not good because religion teaches them.

[ShawnLee]

But if they are still a good person by all accounts, it feels a bit superficial to me to identify a single difference - religious belief - as a defining characteristic that determines whether they are 'worthy' . . .

I will just admit that I will never understand it.I'm glad you'd say that because Christianity is predicated on the belief that no one is "worthy" and that it only works through God.

I know plenty of people who are better people than I am. That's fine. I try but I fail. Doesn't make it so that I deserve to be a Christian.

[attgig]

Right, but in order to find happiness and harmony, one must do whats necessary to make their relationship work. Is putting God first and for most the true path to happiness between two couples? I'm simply not convinced. If you let religion be the dividing issue, then, it will be.

why is life about the search for happiness? since when is putting God first about my happiness? Honestly, life would be a lot easier if life was about me and my happiness.... but, i'm not created to seek out my own happiness.

I like your focus on something bigger.... "happiness between two couples", but... is that truly the end?

[mcs328]

Ah another productive pre-marital class tonight. I love it. I have to work on the ego thing but hey I'm acing this class. Is that blasphemous of me?

Yes Christianity does require that believing in God thing. You can love you're country. Follow the laws. Become a successful member of society. But does that make you an American? No you could be French or Japanese or German or Chinese. You've met all the requirements except that nationalism part. You can change citizenship of course but you have to want to. Being a different nationality doesn't make you a worse person.

[angl2b]

Ah another productive pre-marital class tonight. I love it. I have to work on the ego thing but hey I'm acing this class. Is that blasphemous of me?

Yes Christianity does require that believing in God thing. You can love you're country. Follow the laws. Become a successful member of society. But does that make you an American? No you could be French or Japanese or German or Chinese. You've met all the requirements except that nationalism part. You can change citizenship of course but you have to want to. Being a different nationality doesn't make you a worse person.


there's no such thing as acing the class - it is a partnership. It only shows that you have a huge EGO for stating that. The classes are good.

[cheapie]

Ah another productive pre-marital class tonight. I love it. I have to work on the ego thing but hey I'm acing this class. Is that blasphemous of me?

Yes Christianity does require that believing in God thing. You can love you're country. Follow the laws. Become a successful member of society. But does that make you an American? No you could be French or Japanese or German or Chinese. You've met all the requirements except that nationalism part. You can change citizenship of course but you have to want to. Being a different nationality doesn't make you a worse person.

it isn't like choosing between coke or pepsi where there is no wrong answer. to a Christian, it's the only way to gain salvation. there is no room in the Bible for the possibility of being a believer and considering other lifestyles an equal alternative.

the bible DOES stress to love your neighbor regardless of what/who they are. but that is NOT synonymous with regarding their lifestyle as being equal to that of a Christian.

Christianity is much more than believing in God. Satan believes in God. Satanist believe in God. that sure doesn't make them Christians.

becoming a Christian isn't going to church. being against abortion. not swearing. etc. those are all parts of living out the life...but the core element of being a Christian is the simple act of realizing that you have sinned, that Christ was God and that he came to earth to let himself to take your punishment, and accepting that sacrifice and endeavoring to emulate Him and love Him in everything you do. the rest, while important, is all details.

[Butch]

the bible DOES stress to love your neighbor regardless of what/who they are. but that is NOT synonymous with regarding their lifestyle as being equal to that of a Christian.

This is precisely the sentiment that disturbs me. It is divisive, yet it is readily accepted by a large portion of the population as being 'ok.'

I will never understand how some forms of division (like this) can be rationalized as being 'ok' in some minds, while other forms of division remain 'not ok'. It would seem that once one allows for the possibility of such divisions being justifiable - one is on the way to allowing for other divisions to be justifiable based on some form of logic that can be twisted to suit the moment/sentiment.

:shrug:

[angl2b]

I think this thread straying off topic - if we are going to discuss non believers and believers and views we should probably open another thread. IMO.

[cheapie]

This is precisely the sentiment that disturbs me. It is divisive, yet it is readily accepted by a large portion of the population as being 'ok.'

I will never understand how some forms of division (like this) can be rationalized as being 'ok' in some minds, while other forms of division remain 'not ok'. It would seem that once one allows for the possibility of such divisions being justifiable - one is on the way to allowing for other divisions to be justifiable based on some form of logic that can be twisted to suit the moment/sentiment.

:shrug:

divisive? since when is having a firm view on something bad? if you ask people of any religion if they believe their view is correct and the others wrong. Catholics believe that their doctrine is right. Muslims won't agree that they are correct...and so are Christians. Hindus aren't going to say that worshipping Christ is equal to what they are doing.

the only people that are offended at the idea of absolute truth are the ones that don't embrace a specific religion.

tolerance is respecting people in spite of their views. it is NOT accepting their views as being equal.

take football. i'm a colts fan. i would rather see them win than any other team. i want them to beat the patriots every time they play them until i die.

but i can accept someone being a patriots fan without embracing their views.

[mcs328]

it isn't like choosing between coke or pepsi where there is no wrong answer. to a Christian, it's the only way to gain salvation. there is no room in the Bible for the possibility of being a believer and considering other lifestyles an equal alternative.

the bible DOES stress to love your neighbor regardless of what/who they are. but that is NOT synonymous with regarding their lifestyle as being equal to that of a Christian.

Christianity is much more than believing in God. Satan believes in God. Satanist believe in God. that sure doesn't make them Christians.

becoming a Christian isn't going to church. being against abortion. not swearing. etc. those are all parts of living out the life...but the core element of being a Christian is the simple act of realizing that you have sinned, that Christ was God and that he came to earth to let himself to take your punishment, and accepting that sacrifice and endeavoring to emulate Him and love Him in everything you do. the rest, while important, is all details.

I agree with you. In my example of Nationality you can apply for citizenship but if you don't believe you are that Nationality then you're just faking it. Same thing with Christinanity...anyone can say they believe in all the tenets but it's their own conscience and honesty within themselves that they are really a Christian. You can't pick out Christians off the street by looking at them(ok that sounded insulting but I don't mean like it like that at all) and you wouldn't certainly know unless they told you and even then you have to take them at their word and believe they aren't lying to you. Yes it's more than what you say or do...you have to honesty believe that you accept the God is your Savior and no one can truly know that except yourself and well of course the guy upstairs.

:shakehand I hope we are talking about the same things just in a different way because I understand your point but maybe I'm not very clear on saying I agree with you. :shakehand

[Jihforce]

why is life about the search for happiness? since when is putting God first about my happiness? Honestly, life would be a lot easier if life was about me and my happiness.... but, i'm not created to seek out my own happiness.

I like your focus on something bigger.... "happiness between two couples", but... is that truly the end?

Are you saying putting God first doest not make you happy? Does it not bring you any sort of peace and meaning to your life? How simple and easy would your life be if it was just about you? Would you really be satisfied with that type of life?

Happiness between two couples is part of a foundation. Its a part of the whole, so to speak. Religion can be a part of that whole as well, but I don't feel is required.

[Jihforce]

divisive? since when is having a firm view on something bad? if you ask people of any religion if they believe their view is correct and the others wrong. Catholics believe that their doctrine is right. Muslims won't agree that they are correct...and so are Christians. Hindus aren't going to say that worshipping Christ is equal to what they are doing.

the only people that are offended at the idea of absolute truth are the ones that don't embrace a specific religion.

tolerance is respecting people in spite of their views. it is NOT accepting their views as being equal.

take football. i'm a colts fan. i would rather see them win than any other team. i want them to beat the patriots every time they play them until i die.

but i can accept someone being a patriots fan without embracing their views.


So, if you kids meet a Patriots fan, they couldn't date them? ;)

I think the word, EQUAL, is what most people have an issue with, the word DIFFERENT would be better. But then again, we are all human, who are we to judge? huh? ;)

[cheapie]

Happiness between two couples is part of a foundation. Its a part of the whole, so to speak. Religion can be a part of that whole as well, but I don't feel is required.


see....the reason that you don't feel it needs to be the foundation is because you aren't a christian (please forgive me if i'm making an incorrect assumption).

part of being a christian is embracing the idea that Christ is THE foundation for our lives and that our number 1 commandment is to...


Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

and i am perfectly fine with you thinking that Christ shouldn't be a central part of their marriage. but a christian isn't going to feel that way. and if they do, this discussion is mute because they are by definition not a christian.

[cheapie]

So, if you kids meet a Patriots fan, they couldn't date them? ;)

I think the word, EQUAL, is what most people have an issue with, the word DIFFERENT would be better. But then again, we are all human, who are we to judge? huh? ;)


i disagree. different doesn't imply that there is a value judgement being made. i absolutely do feel that living life as a Christian is better than doing otherwise. i don't feel that it's merely different.

and i'm sure Air believes that being an athiest is better than being a Catholic, and Hapoo believes that his Muslim faith is the only path he should follow.

even you don't really believe that it's merely different. because if you did, you would have no problem with me having a different view that claims to be superior. ;)

[InfiniteNothing]

I judge people not by their beliefs but by their actions. If someone's actions include acting superior based just on religious beliefs I think less of that person. If someone believed differently than me (that people can be judged on religion) but acted humble, I'd have no problem with them and generally think them my equal. Thus it is possible to believe all religions are equal yet still dislike bigots

[Jihforce]

see....the reason that you don't feel it needs to be the foundation is because you aren't a christian (please forgive me if i'm making an incorrect assumption).

part of being a christian is embracing the idea that Christ is THE foundation for our lives and that our number 1 commandment is to...

and i am perfectly fine with you thinking that Christ shouldn't be a central part of their marriage. but a christian isn't going to feel that way. and if they do, this discussion is mute because they are by definition not a christian.

Yup, I am not a Christian, so there wouldn't be a reason to place that the foundation. Do I believe that God exists? Sure.

I would have to disagree with your perception of what makes a person Christian or not Christian. I believe the sum of the parts is what defines someone, not one aspect of it. I can tell you that my wife would take great offense to your claim that she is not Christian for marrying a non-Christian. I see your view being nothing more than narrow-mindedness.

[cheapie]

i'm not talking about judging people at all. i'm talking about the fact that if you are a christian, then you believe certain things...among them is that accepting Christ is the only way to avoid hell and that idea is contrary to that is false.

and you are correct. the bible backs up that statement. Jesus treated everyone equal, even those whose actions he condemned. His first priority was showing them the way, not telling them how much better he was than them.

[cheapie]

Yup, I am not a Christian, so there wouldn't be a reason to place that the foundation. Do I believe that God exists? Sure.

I would have to disagree with your perception of what makes a person Christian or not Christian. I believe the sum of the parts is what defines someone, not one aspect of it. I can tell you that my wife would take great offense to your claim that she is not Christian for marrying a non-Christian. I see your view being nothing more than narrow-mindedness.


please don't put words in my mouth. my contention is that the bible plainly states that believers and unbelievers should not marry. does that make someone not a christian if they disobey that? since i'm not God i can't make that decision. it also says that there is basically only one reason to divorce someone and having a non-believing spouse is not one of them. so...what's a spouse to do if they realize that they've gone against scripture? dunno. realize that they are going to have a harder time than others, repent, and pray for their spouse. i realize i may be coming off as a wacko, but i'm merely laying it out like the bible does.

as for my definition of what makes a christian, i have only quoted Christ. it's possible He's wrong but i wouldn't bet on it.

i dearly hope you don't think i'm claiming to be perfect. i have many things i'm working on. and some that i'm not even working on which is worse.

[Jihforce]

I think i'm just going to leave this one alone. Thanks for your clarification cheapie.

[InfiniteNothing]

my contention is that the bible plainly states that believers and unbelievers should not marry.

Doesn't everyone more or less just pick and chose what they want to believe though?

[cheapie]

I think i'm just going to leave this one alone. Thanks for your clarification cheapie.

i am not offended by questions at all.

look...i want to make sure you are absolutely sure that i am NOT saying i am a better person than you or than any other non-christian. i am merely saying that i believe living as a christian is a better way to live than otherwise. the bible states multiple times that we are NOT better than our fellow man, that God's grace is in spite of us being losers and that no amount of good works could ever deserve His mercy. so please don't think i'm saying i'm better than you. i'm def not.

also, i am curious as to why people have such a hard time accepting Christians believing in something concrete. you may say that you respect and hold everyone's opinions and beliefs as being equal to yours but that's simply not true.


:hmm:

ok. lemme splain. you (hopefully) believe racism is wrong. you likely believe women are equal to men. you probably believe the holocaust happened. you believe in evolution, a round earth, people landed on the moon, etc. am i right?

i'm guessing that you fully disagree with those that hold the opposite view on the aforementioned items and do not for a second believe that their view is as equally true as yours.

however, you probably believe that they have a right to believe how they do and agree that their value as a person, in spite of their beliefs, is the same as yours.

i'm the same way....i just happen to hold a strong religious belief. why is it so egregious that i believe in the Bible and hold everything contrary to it as being false when you do the same thing, just maybe not with regards to religion.

[cheapie]

Doesn't everyone more or less just pick and chose what they want to believe though?

i wish. then i'd take out the parts about not having sex with other women, lying, tithing, sin, etc.

[InfiniteNothing]

Even if they weren't there I bet you would still follow the principles. I'd bet average Joe Athiest follows them about as well as anyone else for his own reasons.

[InfiniteNothing]

i'm the same way....i just happen to hold a strong religious belief. why is it so egregious that i believe in the Bible and hold everything contrary to it as being false when you do the same thing, just maybe not with regards to religion.

Maybe I missed it, did he say something to the contrary or is this a strawman argument.

[cheapie]

he revised it before y'all saw it. ;)

[Yossarian]

update...

the past 2 weeks have been absolute hell. i got fired from my job as an RA, had a lousy xmas, ect.

after coming back from break, she was a completely different person. everything that was going so well before break suddenly died after. she was pulling away from a kiss, an offered hand, and even hugs. for 10 days this went on, me killing myself internally wondering what i was doing wrong, why she wasn't responding, why i couldn't get her "going" anymore.

finally, she went home last weekend, friday while waiting for her ride, i looked her in the eyes and asked if we were ok(which i had been asking, but she had been ignoring for 10 days) and she said yes. when she got back sunday, more of the same crap. so i finally asked her if she just didn't want to be with me.

and she said no. her reasons were understandable, not being able o hide her relationship from her mom, and the religion(which NOW becomes an issue, so i'm wondering if it was just an issue now because its convient...).

i've spent the past few days coping with being alone again(and its hard to get used to again) seeing her is rough, as is all the little things(memories)

i'll survive, i'm mature enough to realize i need to move on, yadda yadda yadda, but what hurts me the most is being lied to for 10 days about her being with me. and the fact that NOW she plays the religion card. despite the feelings i still have for her, if the oppertunity for us to get back together comes up, i'm not taking it. shes played the card once, i'm not letting it happen again with her.

on the semi-plus side, our Vball team took a D-I school to 5 games, eventually losing 21-19 in the first EVER mens vball match in our colleges 150+ year history. sucks that we lost, but ****in a, we outplayed a division one school(we are D-III with less than 1500 enrolled, eat that Robert Morris!) we play WVU and Duquesne this weekend. also have matches against Pitt and Carnegie-Mellon in the future, all in all, we play 13 or so matches against D-I schools. why are we palying these schools? we got into the league they are in. ooohhh yeah.

[DarkFury]

Sorry to hear about that mang...

But I'm glad that you realize that it's not the end of the world... Just as one door closes... you'll be surprised at how fast another will open. :D

Just keep at it. :D

[ufcrusher]

Sorry to hear that..but you are young and will grow from the experience.


On the curiosity that killed the cat side....what happened to your RA position? I know that when I went to school the RA's were pretty much fine so long as they didnt sleep with someone on their floor or provide illegal substances to people. If you dont want to share, its understandable but I am sure others are curious too.

[TofuNinja]

Bummer abou tthe chick Yoss.... but hey, you're a jock. Jocks always get more tail ;) Yeah the religion card is BS total BS. And on the brightside, you are free of her mom.

[InfiniteNothing]

:stupid: what a cop out. I hate girls who are all vauge about why they've gone from caring about you to nill in zero flat. My theory: she dumped you for the money.

[Jihforce]

looks like she got brainwashed. you certainly aren't the first. same thing happened to my cousin...after 1.5 years. lame.