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mcs328
11-15-2005, 07:25 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2005-11-14-hybrid-tax-break_x.htm

Want to save $3,150 in taxes? Buy a hybrid car

By Mark Clayton, The Christian Science Monitor

Buying a hybrid car to save gas and the environment may be its own reward. But for curmudgeons who need extra incentives, help is on the way.

The Toyota Prius is a tax break on wheels.

By David Paul Morris, Getty Images

Across America, states, cities, and corporations are leaping on the hybrid-incentives bandwagon. On top of state tax credits, some hybrid drivers now enjoy exemptions from emissions-testing and excise tax. Others even get unlimited use of HOV commuter lanes.

And the mother of all hybrid perks will soon be unveiled: Beginning in January, the federal government will offer a tax credit of as much as $3,150 per car, based on its emissions profile.

"The federal incentives, higher gas prices, and all these other small but attractive perks are tipping the balance," says Bradley Berman, editor and owner of hybridcars.com. "Hybrid culture is definitely shifting into the mainstream. It's moved from environmentalists and early adopters to energy security and people that just want to save on gas."

But like bleacher bums who envy those in box seats, drivers of regular vehicles are honking their horns in protest at the sweet perks.

"I worry that special privileges for certain types of vehicles may create some hostility," says Walter McManus, director of the Office for the Study of Automotive Transportation at the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute in Ann Arbor, Mich.

Such concerns haven't slowed the hybrid push. At least 20 states in the past five years have offered incentives to hybrid buyers, according to hybridcars.com. California and Virginia are among those permitting lone drivers of hybrids to use High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) commuter lanes normally restricted to those who carpool. But that list will probably grow in 2006, since the federal highway transportation bill passed by Congress in August specifically permits states to expand HOV access to hybrids.

Cleaner city air is one idea behind such perks. Another is that if there were more hybrids on the road, the nation could fill up fewer tankers in the Persian Gulf.

But because they cost more to manufacture, the "hybrid premium" has made their return on investment hard to justify unless gas is more than $3 a gallon. So the incentives just keep on coming.

In Boston, where monthly parking can cost as much as a small apartment, the city council last week began debating an ordinance to allow hybrid owners to park free at meters. If approved, Beantown would join New Haven, Conn., San Jose, Calif., Albuquerque, and Los Angeles.

The federal tax credit may be the biggest draw yet.Just ask Daniel Blackman of Montclair, N.J. With his aging Volvo starting to give him fits, the federal tax credit is looking good.

"I'm seriously considering buying a hybrid, and it's mainly because of all the incentives being offered," he says.

If he buys a Prius after Jan. 1, he explains, the federal government will give him a dollar-for-dollar tax credit of $3,150. His employer, Google, will give him up to $5,000 more. All told, he would save $8,000 off the cost of a new Prius. And the deal would be even sweeter if he lived in Colorado — which offers an additional $3,400 tax credit.

Meanwhile, some critics, like auto writer David Booth of Canada's National Post, refer to hybrid lovers as "enviro-weenies." Sally Pipes, president of the Pacific Research Institute, a free-market think tank based in San Francisco, has said that hybrid cars are a "ruse for environmentalists" aimed at imposing more restrictions on others. Feeding into that view are press accounts citing the ire of Virginia motorists toward hybrid owners now permitted to drive solo in HOV lanes — while they stew in traffic.

Even environmentalists who generally support hybrid technology are circumspect about the avalanche of incentives.

"With that generous federal incentive in place, I would question whether states ought to make it a priority to tack onto that other perks, especially given limited state budgets," says Kevin Mills, director of the Clean Car Campaign at Environmental Defense, in New York.

In the short run, the federal tax credit seems likely to boost significantly hybrid sales. Domestic carmakers like Ford and General Motors, who lag behind Toyota and Honda, could be the biggest beneficiaries, analysts say.

Dr. McManus, who has crunched the numbers, says annual sales of hybrids will reach about 1.2 million a year — nearly double previous forecasts, thanks to the energy bill's massive federal tax credit.

Still, it will be years before hybrids make a big dent in gas demand or greenhouse-gas emissions, he notes. And it would be unfortunate, he says, if the energy-saving technology developed a bad reputation because it was so favored.

"People have burned SUVs," McManus says. "Nobody's done that to a hybrid — yet. But if they keep giving special privileges to one type of vehicle, there could be a backlash."
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There are some lucky Google employed Colorado residents out there looking to buy a Prius.

speedracer120
11-15-2005, 09:00 AM
Maybe when I actually pay more that 3 g's in taxes I'll pick one up.

Cubsfan
11-15-2005, 09:12 AM
Not sure if there's too many Google employees out this way. I considered a Prius, but I just really didn't like it. I actually probably wouldn't have been a bad idea.

Seems like they should just have the dealership file some papers and just send them a check, that'd make it a lot easier than waiting for a tax credit.

bachviet
11-15-2005, 10:27 AM
I don't think I could justify the $5K extra to buy a hybrid vs. a regular model (Toyota Highlander).

johnnymk
11-15-2005, 10:30 AM
I bet with the tax break, the demand will increase significantly, and the price for them will also increase.

Grimm
11-15-2005, 11:13 AM
I bet with the tax break, the demand will increase significantly, and the price for them will also increase.
While there might be a slight jump, I don't see that as being entirely hte case. As demand increases the volume produced will increase. Economy of scale should actualy reduce the prices.

johnnymk
11-15-2005, 11:42 AM
While there might be a slight jump, I don't see that as being entirely hte case. As demand increases the volume produced will increase. Economy of scale should actualy reduce the prices.

Let's wait and see. I bet my prediction comes true in 2006. Maybe several years from now, economies of scale will lead to lower prices, but not in the immediate future. There are just not enough hybrids being produced yet.

mcs328
11-15-2005, 12:25 PM
I think 2008 will be the year of the hybrid. The kinks will be worked out mostly and it will become a generally accepted engine alternative for all types of vehicles and gas or diesal only cars will match the sales of hybrids. That's my optimistic view.

InfiniteNothing
11-15-2005, 12:36 PM
While there might be a slight jump, I don't see that as being entirely hte case. As demand increases the volume produced will increase. Economy of scale should actualy reduce the prices. I think auto manufacturers will just collectively increase their profits on each car. Hybrids in general aren't very profitable right now. But hey, if they become profitable maybe we'll see more options.

attgig
11-15-2005, 02:33 PM
I don't think I could justify the $5K extra to buy a hybrid vs. a regular model (Toyota Highlander).

well, seems like this tax break will justify about 3150 dollars of that 5k. about 1950 to go.....which i think will come pretty quickly at the pump....no?

attgig
11-15-2005, 02:38 PM
http://www.hybridcars.com/tax-deductions.html


first 60k cars per carmaker.
prius is the only one at 3150.

bachviet
11-15-2005, 10:19 PM
well, seems like this tax break will justify about 3150 dollars of that 5k. about 1950 to go.....which i think will come pretty quickly at the pump....no?
That just means $3150 won't be taxed. I still have lots of ground to make up on gas even at $3/gallon.

smeakim
11-16-2005, 06:46 AM
I think we have beat this horse to death already. Just becuase you buy a Hybrid doesn't mean you don't have to buy gas. The only real reason to buy a hybrid right now is becuase you want to feel better about helping the environment. The numbers have been crunched and it comes out to 10-15 years to make your money back versus buying a civic or cavalier. If you move into the SUV it is even longer becuase they don't get the 50mpg that a PRIUS or Hybrid CIVIC gets. An article was written not that long ago that said it would take driving your Hybrid something like 300 miles per day for 6 straight years to break even versus buying a regular CIVIC. Not saying they are bad its just the premium on them versus buying a regular civic or toyota is still not worth the cost. It takes too long to recoup. Don't say it saves you all this money becuase until year 6 or longer you are not saving money. Buy the car becuase you want to help becuase right now the economics of scale to lower the price is just no there yet. JMHO

attgig
11-16-2005, 08:15 AM
I think we have beat this horse to death already. Just becuase you buy a Hybrid doesn't mean you don't have to buy gas. The only real reason to buy a hybrid right now is becuase you want to feel better about helping the environment. The numbers have been crunched and it comes out to 10-15 years to make your money back versus buying a civic or cavalier. If you move into the SUV it is even longer becuase they don't get the 50mpg that a PRIUS or Hybrid CIVIC gets. An article was written not that long ago that said it would take driving your Hybrid something like 300 miles per day for 6 straight years to break even versus buying a regular CIVIC. Not saying they are bad its just the premium on them versus buying a regular civic or toyota is still not worth the cost. It takes too long to recoup. Don't say it saves you all this money becuase until year 6 or longer you are not saving money. Buy the car becuase you want to help becuase right now the economics of scale to lower the price is just no there yet. JMHO

i'm going to keep on beating the horse. 10-15 years on civic vs cavelier? of course. civic is already over the cavelier - base.

and the SUV's eat up gas more quickly than regular cars do, so it'll be quicker to make up that money compared to a regular hybrid.


That just means $3150 won't be taxed. I still have lots of ground to make up on gas even at $3/gallon.no, this new energy bill gives you straight up tax dollars. it'll take of 3150 off of next year's taxes.
it's straight up 3150 if you pay more than 3150 on your taxes. dunno if they give you a return if u don't pay that much, but it's better than previous incentives.

smeakim
11-16-2005, 10:00 AM
OK I will give you that the credit does make this more tempting, but you are not going to get the 3500 for a CIVIC or a PRIUS. The CIVICS will be 2150 if that, and the PRIUS will be about 3100. Total Electric cars will only get above 3100 as well as cars that are clean fuel like natural gas.

The credit at 100% will only be for the first 60,000 Hybrids sold by each Automaker in their first quarter. After 60,000 are sold then the credit drops to 50% for the next two quarters. Then in the 4th quarter of next year that credit drops to 25%. Also The tax credit is a mix of how much fuel the car saves over 120,000 miles (Conservation credit) and it’s fuel economy as expressed by a percentage of the 2002 model year fuel economy for its weight class (Fuel Economy credit). The better a hybrid car does in these two computations, the larger the tax credit.

These credits are going to be gone before the end of the year and I would bet before six months is up. So any SUV hybrids are not getting 3500. Here is a link (http://hybridcars.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=hybridcars&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aceee.org%2Ftransportation%2Fhybtaxcred.htm%23table) to what the values will be based on 2005 models since the 2006 were not out at the time. If you can buy a Honda Civic Natural Gas, you will get 3600, but not sure where you can fill it up. Buy one of the first 60K you get 2150 for a CIVIC. If you get one after the first quarter you get 1075 and if you guy one in the fourth quarter you get 537.50.

Be ready to pony up that money at the first of the year because the first 60K I think are going to go fast. It will be the black friday of hybrids at the start of the year. Also rememebr this is a one time credit as well. Food For Thought.

Cubsfan
11-16-2005, 10:05 AM
Now, if you're in Colorado, you get extra on that civic:

2005 Honda Civic Hybrid (Automatic):
Incremental price difference - $3,075
Tax credit available $2,306
http://www.revenue.state.co.us/fyi/html/income09.html

And you get some amount more than that if you displace a car > 10 years old that won't be operated on Colorado Roads again (sold out of state or junkyard)

Chgoman
11-16-2005, 03:22 PM
You also have to consider what other cars you are considering to see how long it will take you to make up the premium. It's not always between a Prius and a Civic. When I was looking because of some particular job requirements, I was trying to decide between getting a Prius and an Explorer (I know strange choice, but it was the one I was making at the time). I ended up getting the Prius. When comaring the gas difference between these too cars (not applicable for everyone, but it was for me), the difference is significant. As much as I've driven since I bought my Prius a year and a half ago, I've saved thousands of dollars already vs. the other vehicle I was looking at.

I'm obviously an extreme example of that since most people aren't comparing a Prius to an Explorer, but a lot of people aren't choosing between a Prius and a Civic or a Camary either. For each person it is different and as such each person will benefit differently from the difference in mileage. On top of that, looking at a Prius is a little different since it's not based on any other car. Considering that you can get the GPS System, Voice Activated commands, smart entry system, bluetooth tie-in etc. usually only found on luxury cars, it's actually pretty well priced.

Cubsfan
11-16-2005, 03:33 PM
I think the best you can really do to compare apples to apples is to look at cars that have both hybrid and non-hybrid models (i.e. Civic, Accord, Escape, etc...)

SpikeDig
11-16-2005, 11:26 PM
Is the newer Civic "hybridized?" I wish they would make the Toyota Matrix in a hybrid version. I'd rather not get a hybrid SUV Highlander. All the smaller models are just plain ugly! Especially the Prius & Insight. Ick! I just browsed the Honda lot over the weekend & the older Civic hybrid gets 49/51 MPG. Whoa, barely a drop difference local/highway? Go figure. And, about $20K in San Diego.

attgig
11-17-2005, 12:48 PM
Is the newer Civic "hybridized?" I wish they would make the Toyota Matrix in a hybrid version. I'd rather not get a hybrid SUV Highlander. All the smaller models are just plain ugly! Especially the Prius & Insight. Ick! I just browsed the Honda lot over the weekend & the older Civic hybrid gets 49/51 MPG. Whoa, barely a drop difference local/highway? Go figure. And, about $20K in San Diego.


matrix already gets great gas mileage... would be awesome if they hybridized it.

and prius gets better local than highway....nature of the hybrids, they get energy from you braking.