Diamond Certifications

[baggio248]

How important are they? I found a ring that I really like, but its not EGL/GIA etc... certified. It's a good company who has nothing but good reviews about it. The ring isn't TOO expensive. It comes with their appraisal (which anyone can do). So how important is it to have it come with a certification?

[InfiniteNothing]

Well, it's very important in terms of value. The reason why you want an independent company to certify the diamond is to ensure you get what you pay for. Things you can't see with the naked eye can make thousands of dollar differences.

GIA is the gold standard. AGS and EGL are probably fine certs too.

Of course if it's really inexpensive you can just assume the worst and no cert needed. Also if it's small and you have a trained eye for diamonds then you can just trust your eye.

[smeakim]

My personal opinion is that I will only buy a GIA certified diamond. This is not to say that other Diamonds are not worthy or cheaper or whatever. GIA is like a PSA certified baseball card. JMHO

[mcs328]

If it's under 1/2 carat I wouldn't bother.

[Jane83]

yes...mcs is right.
under 1/2 carat isnt much to worry about...
but the GIA cert. would help when your wife tries to pawn it.
keke

[Daedalus]

I'd suggest an AGS cert is better than GIA. Besides the recent grading scandal at GIA, AGS certs have the stone's proportions, beyond just depth and table. This is reflected in the prices--AGS-graded stones typically go for more than GIA-graded ones.

I don't want to break any spam rules. If you want a great site for learning more about diamonds than what your local jewelers know, email me. I've been looking for a stone for an upcoming proposal and have been on this site I found for a few months now. Be warned though, once you get into the details, picking a stone actually becomes harder. I would know. :rolleyes: Choose the red pill or the blue pill, Neo.

Edit--I've been a member for 3 years and this is my first post?

[angl2b]

actually if its under 1 ct I was told don't bother.
Anything over 1 ct. be sure to get a certified diamond.

[baggio248]

Thanks all. The total weight is 1.5 cts. It's 3 stones. The center one is listed at .75 D/I1 I believe. Is it possible to get it certified once I have it? The other thing that scares me, is that they say I can't return it if I have them resize it. So IF I want this one, then I need to buy it from them, (I think I have 7 days to return if not sized) get it certified (if possible), then get it resized. Ugh....

[mcs328]

I'd suggest an AGS cert is better than GIA. Besides the recent grading scandal at GIA, AGS certs have the stone's proportions, beyond just depth and table. This is reflected in the prices--AGS-graded stones typically go for more than GIA-graded ones.

I don't want to break any spam rules. If you want a great site for learning more about diamonds than what your local jewelers know, email me. I've been looking for a stone for an upcoming proposal and have been on this site I found for a few months now. Be warned though, once you get into the details, picking a stone actually becomes harder. I would know. :rolleyes: Choose the red pill or the blue pill, Neo.

Edit--I've been a member for 3 years and this is my first post?

I think AGS tells you the deviation or variation from one facet to the next along with the angle of the crown. Yes I also became quite anal when reading all about diamonds and how they are cut and became more picky when presented with two diamonds that looked exactly the same. Then you get into this the devil is in the details mentality that if you're going to pay X amount then you want to know why.


Hmmm..it is strange you only have 2 posts because I'm sure you've posted before.

[Daedalus]

It doesn't really make sense to me to have a diamond graded after it has been purchased. The cert is a double-edged sword--it will prove the quality of a good stone, but it also gives the dealer justification for charging a higher price. Since good certified stones are more profitable, the dealer (dealer's source) would have had it graded if they thought it would grade high. Don't get a stone graded in the hopes of raising its value, since it's a near-certainty you would never get what you paid for it no matter what if you ever had to sell it. Certs are for peace of mind, but what would you do if the stone didn't grade well? Diamonds are poor investments unless you're a dealer.
Even 3/4 carat, D/SI stones can fetch close to $4k, but only if they're certified ideal.

[InfiniteNothing]

Thanks all. The total weight is 1.5 cts. It's 3 stones. The center one is listed at .75 D/I1 I believe. Is it possible to get it certified once I have it? The other thing that scares me, is that they say I can't return it if I have them resize it. So IF I want this one, then I need to buy it from them, (I think I have 7 days to return if not sized) get it certified (if possible), then get it resized. Ugh....
There's no way to know for sure if you'd be getting a D/I1 with out a cert. It could very well be a F/I2 or really anything. Have you seen the stone in person? I'm concerned the I1 may make this stone look spotty. If you got the cert afterwards and you had to send it back here are two problems: They may not take it back. You're out the money for the cert.

[angl2b]

diamonds to be certified after purchased would be taken out of the setting to be examined - but it won't be as detailed as a GIA, EGL report (I prefer GIA only). what is it that you like about the ring? The way its set? You can always have one custom made to that look if that's what you like - and then purchase individual diamonds to set it.

[adjaw]

Since my fiancee and I broke up I recently looked into selling the ring. Checked a few reputable sites that buy diamonds. I was offered about 50% of what I originally paid. I bought a very good GIA certified diamond, not a large diamond, but very good quality. I'm going to look into a few more web sites that buy diamonds, I might get lucky and get a better offer. If anyone knows any better way to go, please let me know.

[Hoser]

The problem you get when trying to sell diamonds is that even though you probably payed retail cost, they'll try to buy them back at wholesale cost. There's a huge markup on diamonds. The diamond people want you to think that diamonds are a lot rarer then they are to drive up prices. There's a lot of diamonds in storage just for that purpose.

[avlena]

Since my fiancee and I broke up I recently looked into selling the ring. Checked a few reputable sites that buy diamonds. I was offered about 50% of what I originally paid. I bought a very good GIA certified diamond, not a large diamond, but very good quality. I'm going to look into a few more web sites that buy diamonds, I might get lucky and get a better offer. If anyone knows any better way to go, please let me know.

I don't know where I heard it from but if you give a good enough sob story to the store you bought the ring from, sometimes they'll let you return it. One guy said that he told the store his fiance died, and they took it back no problem.

[renovation]

There's a 3 time markup on all gold and silver jewelry. on costume its min 3 time to at the retail level! they call the mark up keystone-so don't ever expect to recover the whole cost of what you payed unless you have had that piece for 50 years or better. Now if this was the the mid 70s-early 80s it was possible to make a couple of dollars on gold (like neckless ropes, or plain gold wedding bands) because there was wild up and down flux in the wholesale price. As for diamonds it depends on the type of cut, clarity of the stone, carbon in the stone, weight of the stone (width & depth), and the type of cutting. Yeah there are different ways to make a stone. (this, I've not had much experience on). bottom line is buy from a store you trust keep the sale slip. the only way you break even on the ring is after many years of ownership. or if it is insured and lost or stolen. hope this helps a little anyway. :)

PS: Furniture is just as bad-there is a 3-4 time mark up on that chair or couch you just got from that big retail store. they had the red tag sale last week.

[bachviet]

Very important if you are getting a big rock.

[Burzhui]

i made sure when i bought a ring for lolita that it was GIA certified, and yea if it's anything under half a carat don't even bother.

[Pemolis]

I'll merely say this.

Don't rush it.

If they have absolutely no patience for you.. then I'd probably look elsewhere (a basic rule of "buyer beware").

[LegendKiller]

Certifications are a joke. Diamonds are a joke. Go overseas to buy diamonds, they are less (but still a huge) joke.


http://www.diamondcuttersintl.com/diamond_education/articles/reference/giabribery.html

[Grimm]

A diamond is merely a piece of carbon. It's not really that rare of a stone. DeBeers buys up all the mines to keep them from becoming too common. They make a fortuine selling little clear rocks.
It's not going to last much longer. Several companies now manufacture diamonds. In a few years the market will be flooded with man made diamonds.

[Daedalus]

Just as the market is flooded with designer imposters for a slew of products, from sunglasses to perfumes to handbags to clothing, yet premium brands survive. Some aspects of the natural formation process are difficult/impossible to recreate in a lab, including structural transition of nitrogen in the rock into a colorless compound, rather than a tinted one. Certainly there may be some implications IF the synthetic makers can ever get the color out of the stones, but don't expect diamond prices to come crashing down. Both synthetic makers and DeBeers have an interest in keeping prices of both products high, so why wouldn't they?

[brainsmile]

Send it to me I'll certify it for you :)

[thresher]

Buy what you love. If it makes your heart sing (or hers) then what will it matter? Of course you're taking advice from a guy who once owned a fiero. :)

[Grimm]

Just as the market is flooded with designer imposters for a slew of products, from sunglasses to perfumes to handbags to clothing, yet premium brands survive. Some aspects of the natural formation process are difficult/impossible to recreate in a lab, including structural transition of nitrogen in the rock into a colorless compound, rather than a tinted one. Certainly there may be some implications IF the synthetic makers can ever get the color out of the stones, but don't expect diamond prices to come crashing down. Both synthetic makers and DeBeers have an interest in keeping prices of both products high, so why wouldn't they?
When is the last time you saw a designer label on a gemstone?

Here's some bad news for you. The dimonds they are creating now are grown using a process similar to how you make sugar crystals. As opposed to the older technique involving a hunk of carbon that was heated and presurized. As they become more experienced with the process they will be able to include any features found in a naturaly occuring diamond. In the short term the diamond industry might be able to discourage people from buying man-made diamonds, but long term people aren't going to care.

The companies making these diamonds aren't too concerned with gemstones. They see it as a side market. What they are really interested in is electronics. Diamond is much more heat tollerant than silicon. It also transferes it faster.

[Daedalus]

When is the last time you saw a designer label on a gemstone?

April 1st of last year. I remember it clearly--it was the same day perfume scents and Armani suits arrived with ostensible labeling. :P There are probably over 100 fake Luis Vuitton handbags out there for every authentic one. Buyers of authentics know that the fakes can be had for much less, and that few people can tell the difference, yet they buy real ones anyway.



Here's some bad news for you. The dimonds they are creating now are grown using a process similar to how you make sugar crystals. As opposed to the older technique involving a hunk of carbon that was heated and presurized. As they become more experienced with the process they will be able to include any features found in a naturaly occuring diamond. In the short term the diamond industry might be able to discourage people from buying man-made diamonds, but long term people aren't going to care.

Why is that bad news for me? I'm not DeBeers, nor do I have a vested interest in any diamond vendors. In fact, I'd feel pretty good if there was no longer civil unrest in South Africa due to mining operations, and I'll be thrilled if it means I can get a much better computer on a price/performance basis.


The companies making these diamonds aren't too concerned with gemstones. They see it as a side market. What they are really interested in is electronics. Diamond is much more heat tollerant than silicon. It also transferes it faster.

My bad. I thought the issue was how sythetics were going to ruin diamond prices, not silicon chip prices.

I agree only time will tell where the diamond market goes. But be wary of making rational arguments regarding an emotional decision. If trading lage sums of money for a small rock isn't an emotional decision, I don't know what is. Blame it on marketing and schmaltzy TV commercials, but a diamond engagement ring is part of a fantasy and an ideal in most American's minds. It could not have developed into such a symbol if the cost was negligible (not a coincidence). Otherwise, why not get engaged with any other gemstone, or over a sunset, or with stainless steel rings instead of gold or platinum? Would we still give diamond engagement rings if diamonds cost as much as cubic zirconia? Can you imagine an ad campaign that tried to convince us to buy CZ e-rings? Consumers have been taught how to rationalize a diamond being worth the cost. "Look at how it sparkles. Look at its clarity. Can you see the hearts and arrows?" As long as DeBeers can maintain that perception, demand will not suffer. Just differentiate naturals from synthetics. "Only true love is more timeles than a real diamond."

[doolittle]

I used to design appraisal certificates for gem dealers, a certificate is a guarantee the stone and the gold are the quality that they claim it is. It only guarantees that a professional gemologist has examined and graded the piece in question. If you’re buying it as an investment it maybe worth the 150.00 they charge to guarantee its quality. A true appraisal will not come with a dollar value attached to the item. No real gem appraisal company will do this for liability reasons. The "free" market decides its value. if you want some tips on visual inspection, there are many of the 3C's faq's out there, and if you have a spacific question i may be able to help. you can also send it to GIA yourself, they have a location near San Diego and in NewYork.

[Grimm]

My bad. I thought the issue was how sythetics were going to ruin diamond prices, not silicon chip prices.
Oh, they will.
Firstly, a man-made diamond is a real diamond. They were formed differently, but chemicaly they are the same. Or potentialy the same.
The reason diamond prices will come down is that when they are making all those giant diamonds for diamond electronics chips there will be some left over. Eventialy capacity will exceed demand and the extra capacity will be used for gemstones.
A man made diamond will be perfect, have optimum color and clarity. The cost to make it will be so much lower than a natural diamond and the means to detect the man-made diamonds will fail after the people making them adjust their methods to defeat those measures.

So, what does your average WalMart mentality shopper choose?
The 1ct diamond with minor flaws and fair color for $600,
or the 3ct diamond with perfect color and clarity for $200?

[Daedalus]

The reason diamond prices will come down is that when they are making all those giant diamonds for diamond electronics chips there will be some left over. Eventialy capacity will exceed demand and the extra capacity will be used for gemstones.

Excess capacity is not a factor. You cannot make a 1 carat gemstone with a machine designed to make semiconductors, which would come up a little short on proportions. You either set out to make semis or you set out to make stones.



A man made diamond will be perfect, have optimum color and clarity. The cost to make it will be so much lower than a natural diamond and the means to detect the man-made diamonds will fail after the people making them adjust their methods to defeat those measures.

Are those your assumptions, or are you going by what the makers are predicting about some point in the future?



So, what does your average WalMart mentality shopper choose?
The 1ct diamond with minor flaws and fair color for $600,
or the 3ct diamond with perfect color and clarity for $200?

I think your point is that the average WalMart-mentality shopper would choose the larger stone for less money? Maybe. It's not relevant. You can also leave with a scarf, a pen and a shirt, without having to traipse over to Prada, Mont Blanc and Polo.

Zoom out, because you're not seeing it. Read my previous post again. How important is branding? For someone who's purchasing a very expensive symbol of their eternal love, is "Walmart" the answer they want when their friends or their fiance asks where the ring came from? For some people, the answer is yes--Walmart already sells diamonds. For a lot more others, the answer is no. Sure, they can lie, but what about their own peace of mind? What do you think of when you think of Walmart? Cheap? Ghetto? Lesser quality? Are these the thoughts people want tied to something so important?
People will always be willing to pay more for something that has a higher pecieved value. The industry has gotten people to pay over $10k for a 2 gram rock; they are the best at increasing percieved value. And synthetic makers, assuming they get their formula just right, will be perfectly happy maintaining a profitable equilibrium. They wouldn't wage a price war, because neither would win. The greater the battle, the smaller the profits on both sides, ultimately ending with a loss of demand for either product. Game theory at work.

[InfiniteNothing]

Branding? I didn't know people were aware of diamond brands. I've never heard someone say "Oh is that an Argyle?" It's no longer a matter of "the real thing" as both are just as real.

Also, you have to believe in capitalism. Joe will undersell debeers to get a piece of the pie. Jim will undersell Joe as long as there is still profit to be made, etc.

I'm betting there'll be a new "diamond" standard. Something rarer and more expensive. "Hey Jane, is that a tritium ring?"

[doolittle]

High Quality Synthetics have allways been a strong market in the jewelry biz, a good percentage of engagement rings and wedding rings are good fakes, like russian ice ect. you might be suprized how many people buy these synthetics and decieve thier SO. the nice thing about these new diamonds, they can advertize them as diamonds. the other nice thing is, the buyer can say that he dident know if it was real or not. its easy to be duped in the wholesale gem trade. Also it will be verry diffucult for the average jeweler to identify it as a fake, so unless you send the man made stone to GIA or another Pro gemologist. no one will know the difference. I read somewheres that Da beers was discussing micro laser stamping all newly released natural diamonds for identification purposes.

[Houdini]

Find a good and reputable diamond store, preferably one that sells ONLY diamonds and settings. They usually offer great service and will buy back or give store credit for full price, especially if you're upgrading to a better diamond. I bought one recently and had a very pleasant experience with a diamontologist who gave me a very fair price.

[Daedalus]

Branding? I didn't know people were aware of diamond brands. I've never heard someone say "Oh is that an Argyle?" It's no longer a matter of "the real thing" as both are just as real.

Also, you have to believe in capitalism. Joe will undersell debeers to get a piece of the pie. Jim will undersell Joe as long as there is still profit to be made, etc.

I'm betting there'll be a new "diamond" standard. Something rarer and more expensive. "Hey Jane, is that a tritium ring?"


You're saying Tiffany's doesn't maintain quite a premium in the diamond ring business? Or Daniel K? It's OK if you're not aware of them, 'cause you're probably a dude. An unmarried dude. Try asking a woman who wears jewelry if they've heard of Tiffany's.
I have complete faith in capitalism. I'm not sure how that's supposed to erase Tiffany's margins though (it hasn't) and they're almost old enough to have had Adam Smith as a customer. That is brand awareness. Like many other things, every popular Tiffany's ring has been copied at lower prices by multiple vendors. Same design, same materials, better-grade stones too, if you wish. Yet Tiffany's still does a brisk business. It's a status symbol, and it doesn't need a visible badge to make people pay more for it. Don't assume Joe's and Jim's synthetics will be as desireable as naturals. They may be consumer substitutes, but as long as people percieve them to be different, they will have different demand curves.
If something rarer that diamonds comes along, and if (and only if) its marketers can wrestle deeply entrenched sentiments away from DeBeers, then I would agree a new standard might be created. A ring that sparkled on its own in total darkness would be cooler than a diamond, but I would need to watch a LOT of ads before I would be willing to buy it in lieu of a diamond for the same price.

[doolittle]

I read somewhere that Da beers was discussing micro laser stamping all newly released natural diamonds for identification purposes. I’m not sure if they are considering using a standard or using their own labeling.
Also it will be very difficult for the average jeweler to identify these new man made stone's as a fake, so unless it’s sent to GIA or another Pro gemologist. No one will know the difference.
If you live near San Diego GIA has a free guided tour of its museum and its school "by appointment", or you can just drop into the building mon-fri and ask to use the library, there is plenty too see. The building is right in front of Lego land in Carlsbad.
Another neat thing about these new manufactured Diamonds is that you can have a loved one's ashes used during this process, so you can turn the dead into a diamond. Last I checked it was pretty pricey to have this done.

[Grimm]

Excess capacity is not a factor. You cannot make a 1 carat gemstone with a machine designed to make semiconductors, which would come up a little short on proportions. You either set out to make semis or you set out to make stones.
??? The diamond will be used for the wafers. That means they should be at least 4" in diamiter.
That can make a lot of diamond rings.


Are those your assumptions, or are you going by what the makers are predicting about some point in the future?
That is my assumption, based on the little I do know about chemistry. To change the color and clarity they would only have to change the temperature and/or trace minerals in the gas being used to form the diamond, wouldn't they? It would only be a matter of a bit of experimentation.


I think your point is that the average WalMart-mentality shopper would choose the larger stone for less money? Maybe. It's not relevant. You can also leave with a scarf, a pen and a shirt, without having to traipse over to Prada, Mont Blanc and Polo.

Zoom out, because you're not seeing it. Read my previous post again. How important is branding? For someone who's purchasing a very expensive symbol of their eternal love, is "Walmart" the answer they want when their friends or their fiance asks where the ring came from? For some people, the answer is yes--Walmart already sells diamonds. For a lot more others, the answer is no. Sure, they can lie, but what about their own peace of mind? What do you think of when you think of Walmart? Cheap? Ghetto? Lesser quality? Are these the thoughts people want tied to something so important?
People will always be willing to pay more for something that has a higher pecieved value. The industry has gotten people to pay over $10k for a 2 gram rock; they are the best at increasing percieved value. And synthetic makers, assuming they get their formula just right, will be perfectly happy maintaining a profitable equilibrium. They wouldn't wage a price war, because neither would win. The greater the battle, the smaller the profits on both sides, ultimately ending with a loss of demand for either product. Game theory at work.

Many people can tell real from knock-off just by looking at the product. This will not be so with a diamond. An expert might be able to tell with some expensive machinery and lots of training. But who is going to do that?

It's easy to identify man-made rubies. The manufacturer adds an ultraviolet dye to the stone. So gemologists can easily determine if it is mana-made. But if the manufacturer stopped adding the dye? There is no way they could tell.
But how much do the rubies sell for? As much as the company who makes them wants to, up to the price of natural rubies. There is only one manufacturer. But people are willing to pay a lot for mam-made stones.

There are three companies who can make diamonds now. They aren't going to add any identifiers to the diamonds when they make them. Once that stone hits the market there will be no reasonable way to distingush it from a natural diamond unless the source wants you to know. Why would they do that?
When supply increases, price drops. Maybe even dies out all together. How special is a diamond when they can be manufactured? Perhaps people will go back to rubies and emeralds, which can be manufactured, but are still much more beautiful stones. Perhaps people will go to birthstones or just plain bands?
Branding means nothing to many people when it is easy to discern that the products are of equal quality. With electronics people buy what they know will last and is of good quality. With foods, it makes a difference in taste. But how many people buy generic brands at CostCo or Wallmart? If the quality is good, they don't care.
Why settle for a stone that was dug out of dirty earth when you could have a fine man-made gem hygenic that was crafted just for you?

The man made diamond industry has been getting grief from DeBeers since they started. I don't see why they wouldn't want to crush them. There is a reason to crush them. Industrial diamond products. DeBeers supplies industrial diamond with the mined diamond that doesn't meet gem quality.
Why not crush them by selling low in their high profit area so that you can steal the entire market?

[zero2dash]

I think your point is that the average WalMart-mentality shopper would choose the larger stone for less money? Maybe. It's not relevant. You can also leave with a scarf, a pen and a shirt, without having to traipse over to Prada, Mont Blanc and Polo.

(snip)


For someone who's purchasing a very expensive symbol of their eternal love, is "Walmart" the answer they want when their friends or their fiance asks where the ring came from? For some people, the answer is yes--Walmart already sells diamonds. For a lot more others, the answer is no. Sure, they can lie, but what about their own peace of mind? What do you think of when you think of Walmart? Cheap? Ghetto? Lesser quality? Are these the thoughts people want tied to something so important?
People will always be willing to pay more for something that has a higher pecieved value. The industry has gotten people to pay over $10k for a 2 gram rock; they are the best at increasing percieved value. And synthetic makers, assuming they get their formula just right, will be perfectly happy maintaining a profitable equilibrium. They wouldn't wage a price war, because neither would win. The greater the battle, the smaller the profits on both sides, ultimately ending with a loss of demand for either product. Game theory at work.

Some people aren't shallow. :shifty: (Not that I'm saying that YOU ARE, I'm just making a point.)
My wife and I got our rings from Walmart. Just because it's sold at Walmart doesn't mean it's not good quality. Not to mention the fact that my wife and I already know how we feel about one another (as does everyone else we know) and we don't need 'name brand bling' to show it. Besides that, if you're getting married to someone, the underlying emotion/love is what matters, not the price tag on the jewelry that you're buying. If that's all you (or anyone else) is focused on, then you (or whomever) should seriously reconsider the engagement because it's not starting out on the right priority. :shrug:

We're happy to tell people we bought our rings at Walmart and it's always followed by a "wow, those are really nice rings, I can't believe you got them at Walmart" response. We decided we'd rather spend a little money on the rings and use the rest of the money on the house/car etc whatever rather than spend tons of money on rings. The shallow, name brand, "I'm better than you" mentality is what's making this world a harsh one to live in. :disa:


Branding means nothing to many people when it is easy to discern that the products are of equal quality. With electronics people buy what they know will last and is of good quality. With foods, it makes a difference in taste. But how many people buy generic brands at CostCo or Wallmart? If the quality is good, they don't care.

:agree:

[InfiniteNothing]

You're saying Tiffany's doesn't maintain quite a premium in the diamond ring business? Or Daniel K? It's OK if you're not aware of them, 'cause you're probably a dude. An unmarried dude. Try asking a woman who wears jewelry if they've heard of Tiffany's.
I have complete faith in capitalism. I'm not sure how that's supposed to erase Tiffany's margins though (it hasn't) and they're almost old enough to have had Adam Smith as a customer. That is brand awareness. Like many other things, every popular Tiffany's ring has been copied at lower prices by multiple vendors. Same design, same materials, better-grade stones too, if you wish. Yet Tiffany's still does a brisk business. It's a status symbol, and it doesn't need a visible badge to make people pay more for it. Don't assume Joe's and Jim's synthetics will be as desireable as naturals. They may be consumer substitutes, but as long as people percieve them to be different, they will have different demand curves.
If something rarer that diamonds comes along, and if (and only if) its marketers can wrestle deeply entrenched sentiments away from DeBeers, then I would agree a new standard might be created. A ring that sparkled on its own in total darkness would be cooler than a diamond, but I would need to watch a LOT of ads before I would be willing to buy it in lieu of a diamond for the same price.

Tiffany's is a name brand ring not a name brand diamond. Artistic design will always be valuable. Not arguing there. The diamond itself, however, will not be valuable (which ironically will reduce the emotional attachment)

[Daedalus]

The diamond will be used for the wafers. That means they should be at least 4" in diamiter.
That can make a lot of diamond rings.
Lots of diamonds that are how many tens of microns thick? Not much there for a good depth. A well-proportioned 1 carat round brilliant is around 4mm deep.



That is my assumption, based on the little I do know about chemistry. To change the color and clarity they would only have to change the temperature and/or trace minerals in the gas being used to form the diamond, wouldn't they? It would only be a matter of a bit of experimentation.
I won't bet against it, but it's more than "a matter of a bit of experimentation." It has been years of steady but slow progress. Synthetics have been around as long as a lot of baby boomers. Beyond the "secret formula" the size and number of synthetics created is a tiny, tiny fraction of naturals. A single mine in 1 day puts out more carats than Gemesis does in a year. Regardless, the key assertion here is, once again, that regardless of how good they get, synthetics will not cause diamond prices to come crashing down.



Many people can tell real from knock-off just by looking at the product. This will not be so with a diamond. An expert might be able to tell with some expensive machinery and lots of training. But who is going to do that?
Who? Every single appraiser and gemologist who wants to stay in business. They are career professionals. It is one aspect of their job to be able to tell synthetics from naturals. If an appraiser doesn't already attend at least a couple seminars/certification/training sessions per year, they're probably not the ones you want doing your appraisal. Don't believe the sensationalistic news articles--it is not, in most cases, all that diffcult to tell the difference or to pass on the skills/knowledge to be able to do so. As far as spectrometers and other equipment, most reputable labs probably have them already--just as any good automotive repair shop has the latest diagnostic equipment.



It's easy to identify man-made rubies. The manufacturer adds an ultraviolet dye to the stone. So gemologists can easily determine if it is mana-made. But if the manufacturer stopped adding the dye? There is no way they could tell.
But how much do the rubies sell for? As much as the company who makes them wants to, up to the price of natural rubies. There is only one manufacturer. But people are willing to pay a lot for mam-made stones.
That is incorrect. Synthetic rubies do not command the prices that naturals do. More importantly, synthetic rubies and sapphires, both of which have been around for over 50 years, offer excellent anecdotal evidence as to what will happen in the diamond market in the presence of good synthetics. Their prices are still doing well, after all this time. Let me repeat myself: Synthetic makers have absolutely no desire to bring down gemstone prices. They want to play ball; they do not want to end the game.



There are three companies who can make diamonds now. They aren't going to add any identifiers to the diamonds when they make them. Once that stone hits the market there will be no reasonable way to distingush it from a natural diamond unless the source wants you to know. Why would they do that?
Why? Besides it being against the law to misrepresent synthetics as naturals in a sale? For the same reasons stated before. There must be confidence in the market. Everyone in the industry is an agent of that confidence. Synthetic makers will propagate the trust out of their own self interests, as will vendors/jewelers, labs, and appraisers. Just as there must be faith in currencies and the stock market, there must be faith in diamonds, or else everyone loses. Just FYI, one of them is laser-inscribing all stones over 1/4 carat with an identifier. If synthetics ever become really good copies, I would expect all synthetics to be marked in a similar way.



When supply increases, price drops. Maybe even dies out all together. How special is a diamond when they can be manufactured? Perhaps people will go back to rubies and emeralds, which can be manufactured, but are still much more beautiful stones. Perhaps people will go to birthstones or just plain bands?
Only conjecture. Stronger colors, yes. But more beautiful? That's subjective. Well-cut diamonds have a brilliance that other stones do not.



Branding means nothing to many people when it is easy to discern that the products are of equal quality. With electronics people buy what they know will last and is of good quality. With foods, it makes a difference in taste. But how many people buy generic brands at CostCo or Wallmart? If the quality is good, they don't care.
Why settle for a stone that was dug out of dirty earth when you could have a fine man-made gem hygenic that was crafted just for you?
I already stated there's a market for diamonds from Walmart. I never said branding was important to everyone. That isn't the point of the debate [again]. Until Walmart opens their own diamond mine, they too are subject to industry prices. Walmart is a player in the retail market, but a very small one at that. I don't know, but I doubt Walmart cuts their own diamonds.



The man made diamond industry has been getting grief from DeBeers since they started. I don't see why they wouldn't want to crush them. There is a reason to crush them. Industrial diamond products. DeBeers supplies industrial diamond with the mined diamond that doesn't meet gem quality.
Why not crush them by selling low in their high profit area so that you can steal the entire market?
None of my statements were made with regard to industrial diamonds. Unlike gemstones, industrial diamonds are not emotional purchases, and are bought for their physical properties and tool performance. But anyway, why not enjoy the higher prices? Synthetics will find their appropriate price point, whether it be 25% or 75% the price of naturals. In the end, the higher the price of natruals, the higher the price of synthetics. Of course the manufacturers know this.
Just FYI, DeBeers is not the monopoly it used to be. It supplies roughly 1/2 the market.



Some people aren't shallow. :shifty: (Not that I'm saying that YOU ARE, I'm just making a point.)
My wife and I got our rings from Walmart. Just because it's sold at Walmart doesn't mean it's not good quality. Not to mention the fact that my wife and I already know how we feel about one another (as does everyone else we know) and we don't need 'name brand bling' to show it. Besides that, if you're getting married to someone, the underlying emotion/love is what matters, not the price tag on the jewelry that you're buying. If that's all you (or anyone else) is focused on, then you (or whomever) should seriously reconsider the engagement because it's not starting out on the right priority. :shrug:

We're happy to tell people we bought our rings at Walmart and it's always followed by a "wow, those are really nice rings, I can't believe you got them at Walmart" response. We decided we'd rather spend a little money on the rings and use the rest of the money on the house/car etc whatever rather than spend tons of money on rings. The shallow, name brand, "I'm better than you" mentality is what's making this world a harsh one to live in. :disa:
I disagree about what's really making this world a harsh one to live in, but that's for another thread.
And I think that's a pretty narrow view of things. If someone buys a premium name-brand diamond ring, they're shallow, but if they buy it from Walmart, they're not shallow? 90% of the world just shakes their head at the excesses and consumerism of this country. I'm as guilty as you, obviously, but I'm not going to pretend I'm more socially conscious or less shallow just because I didn't get a premium name brand stone. What I did get was a better cut than what Walmart offers, graded by a better lab (IMO), in exactly the setting that I picked out, and in a ring size they don't even offer. I paid less than I would have at any local B&M store, but I'm not all that brand-conscious. I wanted a ring that was beautiful to me, and I wanted more choices on how to get there than what Walmart's line offered.
Regarding the girlfriend, er, fiance, she is quite frugal, as am I. We both live well below our means, in a tiny house that should be paid off 18 years ahead of schedule, and neither of us is all that upset that both our used cars together cost far less than any new car. We could stop working for a few years if we wanted to without impacting our standard of living and without dipping into our 401Ks. She had nothing to do with the ring purchase, and had never mentioned the words "ring" or "engagement", or stepped into a jewelry store while we've been together.
For my own band, I've found some great titanium rings at overstock.com. At $60 each, I'll probably buy a few to have a couple replacements in case of loss or damage.
I know you didn't ask; I'm just making a point.



Tiffany's is a name brand ring not a name brand diamond. Artistic design will always be valuable. Not arguing there. The diamond itself, however, will not be valuable (which ironically will reduce the emotional attachment)
Artistic design? No, it's more than that. Like I said, you can get an exact copy of a Tiffany's ring, made by the exact same people from the exact same sub in fact (Vatche), yet the Tiffany's costs more because of the brand. As for rocks only, how about Eightstar, or SuperbCert, or Hearts on Fire, or Eighternity? Or even Zales or Robbin's Brothers? Some carry a higher premium than others, and it isn't solely because of objective, scope-measured performance of the stones.