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ufcrusher
12-04-2005, 05:56 PM
Yep....I was screaming, I hate studying with such passion its unbelievable. Its been many years since I have had to do this and I dont recall it ever being this bad. Guess that is what rustiness will do to you.

Either way, enough complaining...back to the books.

SnowSurfer
12-04-2005, 06:38 PM
i usually take a break every 3 hours to go pee, walk around, focus my eyes on something other than a book (like a nice looking girl for instance)

speedracer120
12-04-2005, 07:45 PM
Is studying for the bar that much harder than your 1L year?

chrisa86wm
12-04-2005, 08:44 PM
I hate studying with a passion. Although if its something that i am interested in, i guess its ok. Good luck with finals everyone!

Markel
12-04-2005, 09:12 PM
Haha. I remeber studying for a business law final, poring through that big honking book (I was sitting in the lounge on our floor of the dorm, with a lot of other guys studying in there, too). I finally got fed up, gave a yell as I literally tossed the book aside, and went to bed. :)

speedracer120
12-04-2005, 09:25 PM
I didn't realize how dumb and clueless my post sounds. I should sleep. You're studying for another state bar right? Man, I wish I was there already. Hahaha. Stinking contracts, torts, crim and some bs class called legal decision making that no other school has because they know it's pointless. Bah. Finals.

You consider taking Bar/Bri for what you're preparing for now?

Sirrich3
12-04-2005, 09:49 PM
I hated it too! Just take breaks when you need to!

ufcrusher
12-05-2005, 10:10 AM
I didn't realize how dumb and clueless my post sounds. I should sleep. You're studying for another state bar right? Man, I wish I was there already. Hahaha. Stinking contracts, torts, crim and some bs class called legal decision making that no other school has because they know it's pointless. Bah. Finals.

You consider taking Bar/Bri for what you're preparing for now?

Yep, this is state #2! Now if I had been smart, I would have taken state #2 right after taking state #1, rather than waiting a number of years. That way my mind would not have to be dusted off as much.

As for Barbri, I have already taken it for the state I am barred in and have the books for the state I am taking in Feb. I would have to physically go to the other state to officially take the class OR pay an additional $1200+ for the "video" version.

Given the fact that I have already taken and passed the hardest bar in the country, I think I should be ok to study on my own for this one. The main problem is I need to learn all the state specific distinctions. I believe this is one of 2 states that has this crap.


One last thing, in answer to your question about 1L classes...its a WHOLE different animal. The truth about law school is that it doesnt get easier, you just start thinking and working differently. Your 2L and 3L classes are harder and more indepth than any of the weed out classes you will take first year. However, you will have more tools at your disposal. IRAC will make sense and you will apply it without batting an eye.

What they tell you on the first day of the bar exam review course is FORGET everything you learned in lawschool if you want to pass the test. Sound crazy? Well its not. The bar examiners look for certain answers, styles, and patterns. The bar review courses teach you how to take the bar exam, not how to take a law exam. They are inherently different but yet the same.

When and if you start practicing.....you start at ground 0 as practical law and practicing law dont see eye to eye.

Further, remember this statement: You go through 3 years of hell, to study for 3 months of hell, to battle through 3 days of the worst hell imaginable, to wait for 3+ months for your results. That is the California Bar examination. Other bar exams are less intensive, but your feelings will be about the same.

speedracer120
12-05-2005, 10:28 AM
Hell, the CA bar is the only that counts for me. Hopefully I can get a damn good GPA that I lacked from my undergrad years to merit getting into a decent enough school back in SoCal, which is pretty damn hard.

I'm already sick of the cold. :hihi:

Butch
12-05-2005, 10:34 AM
Story on the front page of the WSJ today about how the former Dean of Stanford Law just failed the CA Bar exam ;)

Raising the Bar:
Even Top Lawyers
Fail California Exam
Former Stanford Law Dean,
Becomes Latest Victim;
A Mayor Tries Four Times
By JAMES BANDLER and NATHAN KOPPEL
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
December 5, 2005; Page A1

Kathleen Sullivan is a noted constitutional scholar who has argued cases before the Supreme Court. Until recently, she was dean of Stanford Law School. In legal circles, she has been talked about as a potential Democratic nominee for the Supreme Court. But Ms. Sullivan recently became the latest prominent victim of California's notoriously difficult bar exam. Last month, the state sent out the results of its July test to 8,343 aspiring and already-practicing lawyers. More than half failed -- including Ms. Sullivan.

Although she is licensed to practice law in New York and Massachusetts, Ms. Sullivan was taking the California exam for the first time after joining a Los Angeles-based firm as an appellate specialist.

The California bar exam has created misery for thousands of aspiring and practicing lawyers. Former California Gov. Jerry Brown passed on his second try, while former Gov. Pete Wilson needed four attempts. The recently elected mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio R. Villaraigosa, never did pass the bar after failing four times.

But it's unusual for the exam to claim a top-notch constitutional lawyer at the peak of her game. "She is a rock star," says William Urquhart, who last year recruited Ms. Sullivan to join his firm, Quinn Emanuel Urquhart Oliver & Hedges LLP. "Practically every lawyer in the U.S. knows who Kathleen Sullivan is." If anyone should have passed, Mr. Urquhart says, it is Ms. Sullivan. "The problem is not with Kathleen Sullivan, it is with the person who drafted the exam or the person who graded it."

Ms. Sullivan, 50 years old, did not return phone and email messages seeking comment. Her firm said she wasn't reachable over the weekend because she was at a remote location.

Mr. Urquhart says he does not know Ms. Sullivan's score, but knows she spent little time preparing because she was inundated with work for the firm and Stanford Law School, where she now runs the school's constitutional law center. Ms. Sullivan plans to take the test again, according to Mr. Urquhart. "She'll prepare more next time," he says. "My advice to her is that she should look at 15 bar questions and 15 sample, perfect answers. That is all she'll need to pass."

The California test, by all accounts, is tough. It lasts three days, as compared with two or 2½-day exams in most states. Only one state -- Delaware -- has a higher minimum passing score. According to the National Conference of Bar Examiners, just 44% of those taking the California bar in 2004 passed the exam, the lowest percentage in the country, versus a national average of 64%.

Like many professions, lawyers are regulated by the states, and nearly every state requires passage of a bar exam for attorneys to practice law. Some states grant reciprocity to out-of-state lawyers. California does not; to be licensed in the state, one must pass the California bar exam. This July's version of the California test aimed at lawyers licensed in other states -- like Ms. Sullivan -- claimed an unusually high percentage of victims.

The two-day test, which is identical to the longer exam but omits a long multiple-choice section, had just a 28% passage rate in July, an astoundingly low figure that state bar officials are at a loss to explain. Out-of-state lawyers can take the full three-day exam if they choose.

Critics say the test is capricious, unreliable and a poor measure of future lawyering skills. Some also complain that California's system serves to protect the state's lawyers by excluding competition from out-of-state attorneys. There has been some loosening of the rules. California adopted rules last year permitting certain classes of lawyers to practice in the state without having to take the bar.

Gayle Murphy, the senior executive for admissions for the State Bar of California, says that the purpose of the bar exam is to protect the public, not to restrain competition. Great efforts are taken to make sure exam grading is fair, including use of multiple graders, she says. The exam includes six essays and two written performance tests. Each written part is assigned a separate grader. Test-takers who are close to the passing line are assigned nine more graders, so a borderline exam will have as many as 17 graders.

One reason for California's high failure rate, Ms. Murphy says, is that graduates of unaccredited and correspondence law schools are allowed in California to take the test. California's pass rate for ABA-approved schools is in line with those of other states, Ms. Murphy says. She says a possible reason for failures by practicing lawyers is that they simply don't have enough time to put in the requisite studying hours. Attending a premier law school doesn't guarantee success: former Gov. Wilson got his law degree from Berkeley, while former Gov. Brown went to Yale.

Aundrea Newsome, an attorney in Hermosa Beach, Calif., who passed the July test, limited her prep time to two months, but she worked eight to 10 hours a day, every day, during that stretch. "That is standard," she says. "You make a deal with the devil and give up two months of your life to pass."

Ms. Newsome, who graduated from the University of Southern California Law School in May, says preparing for the exam requires studying so many different legal fields, including such arcane topics as 18th-century criminal common law, that practical knowledge or even mastery of several legal subjects is not enough.

Robert Pfister, who was already licensed in Indiana, Connecticut and New York, also found the experience grueling. After the first morning of the exam, "you feel like your hand will fall off from writing so much," says Mr. Pfister, an associate with Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP who passed the July exam in California. "After the second day, you just want to go home and sleep. But then you have to come back for a third day."

Mr. Pfister, who handles securities-fraud cases and had been practicing law for about four years before taking the California bar, recalls one question where he was asked to parse the law that would apply to a disabled child who was seeking to move to a housing complex. "You can be the greatest personal-injury lawyer in the country, or mergers and acquisitions lawyer," he says. "But the stuff they give you is often some area of law you haven't dealt with."

Former Gov. Wilson describes his need to take the bar exam four times as "frustrating." He blames his difficulties on his penmanship, which he says was not messy, but very slow. "To put it in the simplest terms, if I had not learned to type, I would never have passed it," says Mr. Wilson.

A spokesman for former Gov. Brown, who is currently mayor of Oakland, Calif., says several of his classmates from Yale also failed the exam, some of whom went on to be judges and prominent lawyers.

A native of New York City, Ms. Sullivan has an undergraduate degree from Cornell University and a law degree from Harvard University. She taught at both Stanford and Harvard before becoming dean of Stanford's law school in 1999. The author of a leading constitutional-law casebook, Ms. Sullivan has argued several cases before the Supreme Court. Earlier this spring, the nation's highest court ruled in favor of one of her clients, a California winegrowers' group, striking down state laws that restricted direct sales from vineyards to consumers.

Last year, after announcing she would step down from her Stanford post, Ms. Sullivan joined the Silicon Valley office of Quinn Emanuel Urquhart to head a new appellate practice.

Ms. Sullivan is unlikely to need as many attempts as Maxcy Dean Filer, who may hold the California bar endurance record, having passed in 1991 after 47 unsuccessful tries. The Compton, Calif., man, who says he'll practice any kind of law that "comes through the door -- except probate and bankruptcy," says he always tried to psych himself up before taking the test by repeating, "I didn't fail the bar, the bar failed me."

--Jess Bravin contributed to this article.

Write to James Bandler at [email protected] and Nathan Koppel at [email protected]
URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113374619258513723.html

ufcrusher
12-05-2005, 10:56 AM
Hell, the CA bar is the only that counts for me. Hopefully I can get a damn good GPA that I lacked from my undergrad years to merit getting into a decent enough school back in SoCal, which is pretty damn hard.

I'm already sick of the cold. :hihi:

So you are in undergrad right now in the Phlly area? Which school. As for the cold, once you lose feeling, its not so bad. :D


Snip Yep, I had just finished reading that a few minutes ago. Truth hurts.

speedracer120
12-05-2005, 11:36 AM
Nah, I'm at Temple Law. My undergrad gpa sucked so bad Temple's the only school that even had an inkling of allowing me in, though my LSATs weren't too shabby. But I guess 95 percentile don't mean much with a GPA like mine.

ufcrusher
12-05-2005, 11:06 PM
Temple law isnt a bad school. I have relatives and friends who are Temple grads and they have all done very well for themselves.

95% is what.... a 155 if memory serves? Are you planning on trying to transfer back or just go through with Temple?

Head down to 9th and Passyunk, walk up to the window at Genos and order me a Provolone with. Then walk over to the other window and order a cheese fries. Now run to WaWa, get an ice pouch (those metal hot/cold containers) put the steak in, chill it...and over night it to my transplanted self.

After that, head down to good old South Street. You can hit Famouses for their cookies or the Pink Rose Bakery for some cake. MMMMMMM. Somewhere in that general area (I know where, but I am not saying as there is a limit to the amount of information I will say) are my family stores. Its been a while since I have been there. :(

Let me make one recommendation to you that only natives will probably know about. There is a place called Marchianos breads in Roxborough/Manayunk area. Its been around for years and has some of the most amazingly good "breads" that you will ever eat. Some of their breads are Cheese and Steak, egg and pepper, pepperoni. broccolli and ?. They also have Tomato pies.

Go onto the schuykill exp. heading west. Get off at Belmont Ave. Head across the river. When you get to the light (canal street, I think) take a left. Then go straight down the street until you hit a dead end where you either have to go right or left. Go right under the bridge. Take the frist left and the store will be on your right hand side a few blocks up. There is a church/school on the right hand side right after the store. Trust me....you cannot go wrong. My personal favorites are the pepperoni bread and the Steak and Cheese breads. Everytime we head back east, I have to bring as many of them back as I can carry.

If you disagree.....I will be amazed.

speedracer120
12-06-2005, 03:19 AM
Temple is fine, but I hate the area. :heh:

95% was 166 for me. :shrug:

I have yet to hit up Geno's or the other one, Pat's? But when I get a chance, I'll be sure to order the way you told me.

I think thus far, I've only hit up Draught Horse which is the official unofficial bar of Temple Law (it's right on Cecil B between Broad and 15th). The rest have been lots and lots of fast food places with horrible service. I wanna try out Morimoto's and several of the other "world class" places my buddies at school have told me about.

cmdenter
12-09-2005, 06:19 AM
Life is learning and studying all around. I enjoy it. I just hate the studying for passing the test.

I can't forget that moment when I heard that I didn't past my American Literature in the 1st year at college. Nightmare!