Was there ever any doubt? Barry Bonds exposed

[cheapie]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/03/06/news.excerpt/index.html

it's a long article so i won't paste it in its entirety



Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use

NEW YORK (SI.com) -- Beginning in 1998 with injections in his buttocks of Winstrol, a powerful steroid, Barry Bonds took a wide array of performance-enhancing drugs over at least five seasons in a massive doping regimen that grew more sophisticated as the years went on, according to Game of Shadows, a book written by two San Francisco Chronicle reporters at the forefront of reporting on the BALCO steroid distribution scandal.

(An excerpt of Game of Shadows that details Bonds' steroid use appears exclusively in the March 13 issue of Sports Illustrated, which is available on newsstands beginning on Wednesday. The book's publication date is March 27.)

The authors, Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, describe in sometimes day-to-day, drug-by-drug detail how often and how deeply Bonds engaged in the persistent doping. For instance, the authors write that by 2001, when Bonds broke Mark McGwire's single-season home-run record (70) by belting 73, Bonds was using two designer steroids referred to as the Cream and the Clear, as well as insulin, human growth hormone, testosterone decanoate (a fast-acting steroid known as Mexican beans) and trenbolone, a steroid created to improve the muscle quality of cattle.

BALCO tracked Bonds' usage with doping calendars and folders -- detailing drugs, quantities, intervals and Bonds' testosterone levels -- that wound up in the hands of federal agents upon their Sept. 3, 2003 raid of the Burlingame, Calif., business.

Depending on the substance, Bonds used the drugs in virtually every conceivable form: injecting himself with a syringe or being injected by his trainer, Greg Anderson, swallowing pills, placing drops of liquid under his tongue, and, in the case of BALCO's notorious testosterone-based cream, applying it topically.

According to the book, Bonds gulped as many as 20 pills at a time and was so deeply reliant on his regimen that he ordered Anderson to start "cycles" -- a prescribed period of steroid use lasting about three weeks -- even when he was not due to begin one. Steroid users typically stop usage for a week or two periodically to allow the body to continue to produce natural testosterone; otherwise, such production diminishes or ceases with the continued introduction of synthetic forms of the muscle-building hormone.

[guiseppewv]

No doubt. The guy is a bum.

I was just getting ready to post this article.

[cheapie]

ha ha

[guiseppewv]

Why is this guy still in baseball? He should be in jail.

[LegendKiller]

All of his records should be stripped, along with anybody else who did this crap.

[guiseppewv]

Amazing that Pete Rose was villified as bad he was (not that he didn't deserve it but it has been ~20 years ago) but this guy gets nothing. :shrug:

[CornMonkey]

they need to write the same book about mark mcgwire too.

[Cubsfan]

All of his records should be stripped, along with anybody else who did this crap.
You realize that until a couple of years back, there were no rules against using steroids, right? Hard to retroactively punish based on new rules. Sure, you may say that it's against the law, and you'd be correct, that it is against US law, but not against baseball 'law'.

[LegendKiller]

You realize that until a couple of years back, there were no rules against using steroids, right? Hard to retroactively punish based on new rules. Sure, you may say that it's against the law, and you'd be correct, that it is against US law, but not against baseball 'law'.

Yes, but it is hard to argue that you can't directly attribute McGwire and Bond's performance to steroids. The ones who preceeded them were not nearly as extensive in use.

[MikeD]

I personally like the guy, if only for the stance he takes against the media.

It's also worth stating that no matter how much one takes in the form of steriods, you still gotta be pretty damn good to be able to hit like he can. Strength does not equate to being a good hitter. Bat speed, reflexes, hand eye coordination...these a good hitter make. No many over the past 15 years have been able to hit like Mr. Bonds.

[AlpineJay]

I personally like the guy, if only for the stance he takes against the media.

It's also worth stating that no matter how much one takes in the form of steriods, you still gotta be pretty damn good to be able to hit like he can. Strength does not equate to being a good hitter. Bat speed, reflexes, hand eye coordination...these a good hitter make. No many over the past 15 years have been able to hit like Mr. Bonds.

That may be true, but the fact is that Bonds at the inception of his career was hardly considered to be a power hitter - he was more of a contact hitter with speed. He may have been able to hit and he certainly is a good hitter, but his ability to crank out 700+ home runs is highly doubtful in light of apparent evidence that substantiates his steroid use. I think it's fairly common knowledge that Bonds all of a sudden blew up in size, got down to 6% body fat, and began cranking out 50+ home runs a season.

Take his record away.

[Merlin]

In my mind the home run kings are still Maris and Hank.

[MikeD]

In defense of Mr. Bonds...

Again, not arguing that he's roided up. I'm simply saying that he's a great, great hitter. I personally agree with this guy; Bonds is the greatest hitter ever. I'm not talking solely power, I'm talking talent.


Even subtracting for steroids, Bonds is the best of all time.

When one thinks of Barry Bonds, you can only name a handful of athletes that have achieved what he has in his career. You can start with Babe Ruth, Muhammed Ali, and Michael Jordan, and then you have to admit Barry takes a back seat to no one else. Contrary to what most people think, none of those three were universally loved by the media during their playing days.

In 1993, at the peak of his playing career, Michael Jordan had a Bonds-like scandal that affected his career with the press. Jordan was caught with evidence (checks) linking him to lowlifes. He was forced to admit running up huge gambling losses in poker and golf.

Jordan didn't exactly embrace the media, at this point. He didn't grant friendly interviews to out-of-town reporters. He displayed the same evasive measures that Barry Bonds displayed in his state-of-the-world when he showed up at spring training.

Although Jordan didn't answer questions that didn't pertain to things on the court, his father James told reporters this: "He doesn't have a gambling problem. He wouldn't be doing that if he couldn't afford it. He isn't that stupid. What he does have is a competition problem. And if he didn't have a competition problem, you guys wouldn't be writing about him."

Michael Jordan lost his father soon after that, to a gruesome murder. Then, Jordan stepped away from the game.
Barry Bonds doesn't have a steroids problem. He isn't that stupid. What he does have is a competition problem. And if he didn't have a competition problem, you guys wouldn't be writing about him.

Those are my words, because Barry's dad, Bobby, passed away in 2003 to cancer. The difference between Barry and Michael is this.

Barry Bonds isn't walking away from his late-career scandal. Like Jordan's gambling problem, however, it will diminish in time and Bonds will be remembered for his exploits on the field.

I considered Barry Bonds as baseball's all time greatest player, and even taking into account and subtracting for his "cheating", Bonds should be considered the game's greatest player.

Cheating has always gone on in pro sports, especially when the stakes are so high. When it is done by popular players, there is a "wink-wink" about it, and it might be called "gamesmanship". Think about it. When Sammy Sosa was caught with a corked bat, no one dismissed his entire career. When Gaylord Perry was caught applying substances to the baseball (and he later admitted all following his career) his career numbers weren't stricken, or reduced. Bonds may have hit home runs off pitchers who were on steroids.

Baseball didn't have a steroid policy in place until 2002 . And besides, Bonds grand jury testimony was that he took a steroid cream, but didn't know what it was.

So, Dan Rather gets a pass for a late-career scandal in which he "trusted" his underlings, but Barry Bonds does not?

So much of this has to do with resentment towards Bonds. African American journalists have written that it's because people don't like Bonds. I believe it. Mark McGwire mostly gets a pass from the American public.

People don't want Barry to break Babe Ruth's and Hank Aaron's home run records.

Why should I give Babe Ruth, and others from earlier eras, the benefit of the doubt. Jim Bouton wrote in his 1970 book "Ball Four" that if there was a pill that he could take that would take five years off his life--but guarentee him 20 victories--he would take it. He said everyone would have taken it. I asked Bouton about steroids recently, and he said that the only reason players of his era didn't take steroids was because they wasn't available.

Tony Gwynn is on record saying clubhouses were strewn with amphetamines, commonly referred to as "greenies". They enhance performance by allowing players to combat the hard-living nightlife. How do we know who is clean and who isn't? We don't.

After much reading, I have decided the best thing steroids could have done for Bonds was in recuperative powers. He was able to stay in the lineup, which added to his career totals. But steroids didn't help him with his amazing hand/eye coordination. Or his patience. Or his baserunning. Or his fielding.

We can't dismiss everything he did the last couple of years. So take away 20 percent of the last three or four years. Take away 20 percent of the last 20 percent of his career. An A+ student got caught cheating. Doesn't mean he's still not the smartest kid in class.

If you want to take away 50 homers from Bonds' total, fine. He's still the best of all time. But then, take away from Babe Ruth, because he was pitched to with a livelier, brighter baseball than earlier eras. Take away totals from Roger Maris, because expansion and smaller ballparks aided home run totals. Take away totals from Reggie Jackson, because he hit a lot of home runs as a designated hitter. Take away totals from all the modern players who have vision-corrected surgery, which wasn't available to players from earlier eras.

I love all the sportswriters who wrote that Barry "cheated" us, and "cheated" baseball. No, Mickey Mantle cheated us. He had a God-given world of talent, and (admittedly, in his later years) squandered it by abusing his body with a hard-living lifestyle. Barry Bonds has worked hard in the weight room from the day he entered the major leagues.

Bonds has never taken the easy way out, and walked away from controversy. I don't know if he has a steroids problem. I do know he has a problem with the media. I do know that he has a competition problem. I do know that he is the greatest player of all time.

http://thesportscritics.com/listingsEntry.asp?ID=307840&PT=Other+Critics&ic=02

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/brew/img/apr04/bonds412.jpg

[johnnymk]

All his records are belong to me:heh:

[LegendKiller]

My problem with that whole article is this.


If you removed the single provable instance of the corked bat, the gambling with Jordan, the performance maintaining (not enhancing base level) amphetamines, or any other issue, could you say that player would have performed the same on the field?

Jordan + Gambling != more or less 3 pointers, slams, defense

Nightlife+Amphetamines != uber-abilities to perform relative to your actual base level.

One corked bat != continual corked bats and even now, afterwards, he *still* is good.


However....


bonds + steroids ========= prolonged, provable, and sustained performance enhancements *WAY* above normal.


You can say, with absolute certainty, that Bonds would have not performed as far above his base level, as he did with steroids.

[Merlin]

In defense of Mr. Bonds...

Again, not arguing that he's roided up. I'm simply saying that he's a great, great hitter. I personally agree with this guy; Bonds is the greatest hitter ever. I'm not talking solely power, I'm talking talent.

If he is clean, something we all realize is unlikely, then yes, he is the greatest hitter ever. If he is on the juice with the advantage that gives in terms of visual acuity, increased bat speed, increased muscle mass, and ability to recover from workouts faster during a grinding season then how can you honestly evaluate hit ability? Imagine what some of histoy's other all star caliber hitters could have done with those advantages. And remember, in baseball it only takes a small advantage to have a big impact.

[eSDee]

In defense of Mr. Bonds...

Again, not arguing that he's roided up. I'm simply saying that he's a great, great hitter. I personally agree with this guy; Bonds is the greatest hitter ever. I'm not talking solely power, I'm talking talent.

He's a great hitter, but then again so are most players in the MLB. Nobody is saying that he isn't a top notch athlete. He is playing with other top notch athletes and doing steroids allows him to put a distance between him and them. It's cheating.

I can appreciate that you are a fan of his Mike D so don't take it personally aight? :) I am a huge fan of baseball and I think that players like Bonds hurt the integrity of the game. He's not the only one, but I think he should be made an example of if he continues to play. I want to discuss a couple of things in the article as well:


Michael Jordan lost his father soon after that, to a gruesome murder. Then, Jordan stepped away from the game.
Barry Bonds doesn't have a steroids problem. He isn't that stupid. What he does have is a competition problem. And if he didn't have a competition problem, you guys wouldn't be writing about him.

Those are my words, because Barry's dad, Bobby, passed away in 2003 to cancer. The difference between Barry and Michael is this.

Barry Bonds isn't walking away from his late-career scandal. Like Jordan's gambling problem, however, it will diminish in time and Bonds will be remembered for his exploits on the field.

The difference is that Jordan's gambling had no impact on his ability to play the game. Bonds' scandal is directly related to it.


So, Dan Rather gets a pass for a late-career scandal in which he "trusted" his underlings, but Barry Bonds does not?


Dan Rather got a pass and then was basically forced to retire because of his scandal. I think that Bonds should take what is left of his integrity and retire. If he doesn't, then I think his records should be stripped once he is found conclusively to have been using steroids.

[zenbooty]

MikeD and Merlin are booth wrong. Even if Bonds was miraculously innocent of all charges, he would still not be as great a hitter as Ted Williams.

[guiseppewv]

Comparing Dan Rather's mishap to BB does not add up. Rather can argue that he didn't know but BB def knew he was roiding.

[cheapie]

i have a problem with the contention that he would have still been a great hitter w/o roids. many of his home runs would like just have been long fly balls w/o that extra bulk. jmho of course.

[MikeD]

Let me say this: I understand and appreciate the sentiment that he, as a steriod user (and there is little doubt that he is) is a cheater and that his records are compromised. I'm in agreement with the majority there. And yes, as EsDee saw, I am a fan and this probably clouds my view of the guy a bit. I can admit that as well. What I am saying about Bonds is this:

He was and still is a great hitter. Fabulous hitter. Has steriods helped in that area? In terms of power, sure. In terms of hand-eye coordination, I doubt it. You can even craft an arguement that it hinders things such as bat speed; after all, he's not as fast as he was earlier in his career. This is where, IMO, he stands away from the pack. The guy is incredibly hard to strike out, has an astronomical OPS, and simply kills pitcher's mistakes. How about we take a look at his 2004 numbers:

SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2004 SF 147 373 129 135 27 3 45 101 232 41 6 1 .362 .609 .812 1.421

Sorry for the numbers not lining up, but that's 232 walks, only 41 K's, 101 RBI's, .812 slugging percentage, and (are you kidding me) a 1.421 OPS (on base, slugging percentage). Those numbers aren't put up by average MLB players, they aren't put up due to steriods, and they aren't a fluke...he's been doing it for years. There are Hall of Fame guys who didn't even dream of doing things like that, much less accomplish them consistently.

Also keep in mind that Bonds has played in the current era (unlike Ruth, Dimaggio, Williams, etc), against the greatest pitchers ever to play the game. Sure, there was a Cy Young, a Walter Johnson, a Sandy Koufax in previous eras...but today's game features the BEST PITCHERS ever. To consistenly face such a high level of competition, and produce for so long...to me, that equates to a greater level of ability that his predecessors.

As much as I give him credit for his abilities, it's hard not to wonder if people disminish him for who he is. Look at the numbers, look at what he's done, better yet...watch him play. Steriods or no, he's the greatest hitter ever, and true fans would be doing themselves a favor by catching him live before he's gone. ;)

[Grubbie]

Steriods or no, he's the greatest hitter ever, and true fans would be doing themselves a favor by catching him live before he's gone. ;)

I agree 100%, I doubt steroids will help you with pitch recognition and your batting eye. He became SUPER picky about the pitches he would swign at and take a walk. Doing this it forces pitches to either walk him or throw him something he can hit(and when he can hit it he ****ing crushes it).

If he was on roids I don't think that will help him catch up to a 101mph fastball from gagne(which he pulled FOUL into the bay only to nail the next 100mph 450ft dead center). It might help him with recovery and throughout the whole season but he is a baseball god. I think he is the greatest hitter of all time, better then ruth or teddy ballgame.

[Merlin]

I agree 100%, I doubt steroids will help you with pitch recognition and your batting eye.

Sorry but that is wrong. Steroids do indeed increase visual acuity. They make your eyesight better.

Steroids do a lot more than simply pack on pounds of muscle. And almost all of their effects improve one's baseball skills.

[guiseppewv]

Sorry but that is wrong. Steroids do indeed increase visual acuity. They make your eyesight better.

Steroids do a lot more than simply pack on pounds of muscle. And almost all of their effects improve one's baseball skills.

I agree. This was stated in the article too.


From MLB.com:


SEAS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
1993 159 539 129 181 38 4 46 123 365 126 79 29 12 .458 .677 .336
1994 112 391 89 122 18 1 37 81 253 74 43 29 9 .426 .647 .312
1995 144 506 109 149 30 7 33 104 292 120 83 31 10 .431 .577 .294
1996 158 517 122 159 27 3 42 129 318 151 76 40 7 .461 .615 .308
1997 159 532 123 155 26 5 40 101 311 145 87 37 8 .446 .585 .291
1998 156 552 120 167 44 7 37 122 336 130 92 28 12 .438 .609 .303
1999 102 355 91 93 20 2 34 83 219 73 62 15 2 .389 .617 .262
2000 143 480 129 147 28 4 49 106 330 117 77 11 3 .440 .688 .306
2001 153 476 129 156 32 2 73 137 411 177 93 13 3 .515 .863 .328
2002 143 403 117 149 31 2 46 110 322 198 47 9 2 .582 .799 .370
2003 130 390 111 133 22 1 45 90 292 148 58 7 0 .529 .749 .341
2004 147 373 129 135 27 3 45 101 303 232 41 6 1 .609 .812 .362


First off look at his slugging pct (I left '05 off b/c of his injuries and pre-1993 b/c it was early in his career) - he started using roids around 98 or 99 and his slugging pct has gone up, on avg, dramtically since then. From 1993-1998 his avg Slg % was .618 from 1999 to 2004 it was .755. If he wouldn't have been injured in '99 that would be higher.

The roids def helped him stay on top of his game for longer. There is no arguement that he wasn't a good player before but he would not still be at the top of his game without the roids.

[zero2dash]

they need to write the same book about mark mcgwire too.

Unless you're believing in the BS that Conseco is selling, there's no proof anywhere that suggests that McGwire used steroids. He's already admitted to using andro, which during his playing days - was legal. (It isn't anymore.)Sorry - it's not blind "I'm a St. Louis fan 'cause I live here" mentality...I really don't think McGwire did any steroids and (again) there's no proof otherwise. He went before congress and they tried to hang him no matter what he said, so he didn't say anything; I don't blame him 'cause it was a no-win situation. :shrug:

***

As for Bonds -
I've never liked Bonds as a human being or as an athlete, but he obviously has talent. Golden gloves, MVPs, etc. He was doing all that before 1998 when (according to this) he started taking steroids. Basically about 300 of his HRs are bogus and his last few MVP wins are also...otherwise, he still has talent and a love for the game. The problem is - he shouldn't win the HR race and he shouldn't be allowed to play anymore. I agree with what I saw someone else say elsewhere...he should retire now and leave the HR records like they are (with Aaron still on top).

I definitely think Bonds is full of crap if he thinks anyone's going to believe him anymore at this point that he didn't take anything...I mean come on.

[Merlin]

Sorry for the numbers not lining up, but that's 232 walks, only 41 K's, 101 RBI's, .812 slugging percentage, and (are you kidding me) a 1.421 OPS (on base, slugging percentage). Those numbers aren't put up by average MLB players, they aren't put up due to steriods, and they aren't a fluke...he's been doing it for years. There are Hall of Fame guys who didn't even dream of doing things like that, much less accomplish them consistently.

The way I read that is without steroids Barry would have been a Hall of Fame calibur player. Looking at his early career I think we can fairly easily make that case. Then you take that HOF calibur player and add in some big advantages (roids) and you wind up with the baseball god.

[guiseppewv]

I agree that before steroid use he should have been in the HOF - after steriod use he shouldn't even be in baseball. I was a person who liked Bonds a lot. I remember watching him play ball in the 'burgh many times. Using roids to further your career is not something that MLB should turn a blind eye to.

[Merlin]

Unless you're believing in the BS that Conseco is selling, there's no proof anywhere that suggests that McGwire used steroids. He's already admitted to using andro, which during his playing days - was legal. (It isn't anymore.)Sorry - it's not blind "I'm a St. Louis fan 'cause I live here" mentality...I really don't think McGwire did any steroids and (again) there's no proof otherwise. He went before congress and they tried to hang him no matter what he said, so he didn't say anything; I don't blame him 'cause it was a no-win situation. :shrug:

You're right there is no proof Big Mac did anything wrong. And since he chose to go quietly into the night nobody is looking at him too hard.

See this is the really sad part. He could very well be perfectly clean but in this day and age players like him almost have to prove their innocence.

And if you add up the pieces on Mac tell me what you get?
1) Skinny little guy comes into the league in mid/late 80's
2) Leaves the league the size of a truck
3) Admitted to using Andro after reporter saw it in his locker
4) Almost all reputable medical people recognize Andro as a steroid
5) Teammate Canseco's book
6) We may not like Canseco but he was already right once - Rafael Palmerio

All circumstantial evidence to be sure but man, as a rational person tell me what conclusion you would draw from that.

[nickel]

Barry Bonds Thought Steroids Were Flaxseed Oil and Arthritis Rub

http://www.bongonews.com/StoryImages/barry_bonds_2004-12-15.jpg

SAN FRANCISCO — The San Francisco Chronicle reports that Barry Bonds, in his federal grand jury testimony, said he thought he was drinking flaxseed oil and using an arthritis cream, not taking steroids in liquid and cream form. The oil and rub were supplied to him by his personal trainer, who obtained them from the infamous Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative – Balco.

While others may scoff at this defense by Bonds, Bongo News has learned that Bonds had confided in his trainer that he was frequently constipated. “When I swing for the fence,” Bond told him, “I never know if the plug will hold or whether I’m going to unload on the catcher.”

His trainer told him not to worry. He would get him something to make him more regular and also get him some cream to ward to any arthritis in his wrists. When Bonds said he didn’t have any arthritis, his trainer said it was a precaution. “Just rub it all over your arms,” he told Bonds.

So the trainer brought him flaxseed oil and arthritis cream. They worked wonders. Bonds became regular. He also became a regular home run hitter with bulging forearms.

But wasn’t it suspicious that the trainer paid thousands of dollars to Balco for these normally inexpensive items?

“Barry wanted the good stuff,” said his trainer. “He was sh*tting real bad – or not sh*tting at all, actually - and price was no object. Flaxseed oil also cleans out your arteries, lowers your blood pressure, and lowers cholesterol. Who knew it also helped you hit home runs!?”
http://www.bongonews.com/layout1.php?event=1507

[guiseppewv]

cough, cough, bull$hit, cough, cough

I cannot believe that defense would hold any water.

[zero2dash]

You're right there is no proof Big Mac did anything wrong. And since he chose to go quietly into the night nobody is looking at him too hard.

See this is the really sad part. He could very well be perfectly clean but in this day and age players like him almost have to prove their innocence.

And if you add up the pieces on Mac tell me what you get?
1) Skinny little guy comes into the league in mid/late 80's
2) Leaves the league the size of a truck
3) Admitted to using Andro after reporter saw it in his locker
4) Almost all reputable medical people recognize Andro as a steroid
5) Teammate Canseco's book
6) We may not like Canseco but he was already right once - Rafael Palmerio

All circumstantial evidence to be sure but man, as a rational person tell me what conclusion you would draw from that.

1+2 true but he played for all those years and he's not supposed to grow? He worked out and ate obviously...isn't it safe to say that all college athletes bulk up once they go pro?

3+4 baseball didn't ban andro use until after McGwire admitted to using it; whether scientists regard it as a "steroid" is inconsequential since obviously the MLB didn't think it was and all proof of andro (AFAIK) has shown that andro helps you bulk up when you work out; it doesn't just make someone "big" just by them taking it

5 Canseco's been out of the limelight for how long now? He'd say anything to make a quick buck which brings us to

6 Palmeiro testing positive now doesn't do anything to collaborate Conseco's story because Palmeiro could have started using recently (and he didn't actually use it when he was Canseco's teammate) meaning (again) Canseco is full of crap.

Innocent until proven guilty...no proof that Mac used.
People can say "well he didn't say that he didn't use steroids" but that's hogwash...he's been out of baseball for how long now? He doesn't have anyone that he has to answer to and they were looking for a witch hunt and he didn't oblige. No matter what he would've done they would've crucified him for it.
-He admits it, he's made a mockery of in the press, his entire career is asterisked and tarnished
-He doesn't admit it, his career stands but people start believing that he's lying and they call him out

Bonds on the other hand...:rolleyes: the case is mounting against him. His excuses are complete BS...geez have some f'n balls and just admit it. "I was poopy" yeah whatever BARRY :stupid: the only thing poopy in here is your excuses

[zenbooty]

cough, cough, bull$hit, cough, cough

I cannot believe that defense would hold any water.
Why not? We see in this thread that true believers will never doubt their favorite stars. I mean, McGuire wasn't juicing? Oh really? Did everyone see the same McGuire I saw at the congressional hearing? You know, the emaciated guy who looked like he just got off chemotherapy, who ducked, dodged and answered with vague lawyer-type general statements in response to direct questioning about his possible steroid use? Hey, I didn't want to believe it either, but it was plain to see as far as I'm concerned.

And for those who continue to insist Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time, I lay out the fact that Ted Williams' lifetime numbers are amongst the greatest of all time, yet he missed nearly 5 of his prim career years to military service. Take out 5 good years of Bonds career, and see how he stands up then. And as to the argument that today's pitching is so much better, there has been no evidence given backing this up, and in fact we've been in an offense dominated era for some time now (how much of this is due to juicing is certainly up for debate). What's more, Teddy ballgame was never permitted to wear body armor to gain unfair advantage over pitchers the way Bonds does. That has far more impact than any debatable improvements in the pitching game since Ted was a pro.

[MikeD]

What's more, Teddy ballgame was never permitted to wear body armor to gain unfair advantage over pitchers the way Bonds does. That has far more impact than any debatable improvements in the pitching game since Ted was a pro.

Wearing some arm pads has more impact on hitting numbers than the quality of pitching faced? Ummm.....OK. :nuts:

[zero2dash]

Why not? We see in this thread that true believers will never doubt their favorite stars. I mean, McGuire wasn't juicing? Oh really? Did everyone see the same McGuire I saw at the congressional hearing? You know, the emaciated guy who looked like he just got off chemotherapy, who ducked, dodged and answered with vague lawyer-type general statements in response to direct questioning about his possible steroid use? Hey, I didn't want to believe it either, but it was plain to see as far as I'm concerned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_McGwire#Controversy

Controversy

Since he retired, McGwire has kept a low profile. His admission that he used the supplement androstenedione has led to speculation but not proof that he also took steroids. McGwire was also named as a steroid user in a 2005 book by former teammate Jose Canseco. Canseco claimed he introduced McGwire to steroids when they were both members of the A's and that McGwire used steroids throughout his baseball career. Cardinals’ manager Tony LaRussa, who was the manager at Oakland at the time, doesn’t believe the claims, telling the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, “I couldn’t disagree more. I categorically refuse to accept anything that Jose says about Mark.” LaRussa says that the claims about McGwire are driven by greed and jealousy. McGwire repeatedly denied using illegal performance-enhancing drugs in television interviews, although he declined to do so under oath when he appeared before the House Government Reform Committee on March 17, 2005. As McGwire said in a tearful opening statement, "Asking me or any other player to answer questions about who took steroids in front of television cameras will not solve the problem. If a player answers 'No,' he simply will not be believed; if he answers 'Yes,' he risks public scorn and endless government investigations." During the hearing, McGwire repeatedly responded to questions regarding his own steroid use with the line, "I'm not here to talk about the past." McGwire also stated, ""My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family, and myself." [1] When asked if he was asserting his Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate himself, McGwire once again responded: "I'm not here to talk about the past. I'm here to be positive about this subject."

During the hearing, McGwire promised the parents of children who committed suicide as a result of steroid use that he would direct his foundation to undertake efforts to educate children about the dangers of using performance enhancing drugs and volunteered to serve as a spokesman for Major League Baseball to convince young athletes to avoid "dangerous drugs of all sorts."

I agree.
LaRussa probably knew McGwire better than anyone over his career...wouldn't he know if he was using steroids?
Versus Dusty Baker who was in the same boat (while coaching in SF) but has never once come to Bonds' aid in the media and said "No way"...? :shrug:

Google McGwire and look at some pictures and compare the Oakland days to the St. Louis days...he looks the same to me. (Only exception being his first several years...once he wasn't a rookie anymore.)

[zenbooty]

Wearing some arm pads has more impact on hitting numbers than the quality of pitching faced? Ummm.....OK. :nuts:Being able to creep as far into the batters box as you want without fear of inside pitching has WAAY more impact than some unproven less than consequential increase in the quality of pitching in general between what Ted faced and Bonds faces, yes.

[MikeD]

Being able to creep as far into the batters box as you want without fear of inside pitching has WAAY more impact than some unproven less than consequential increase in the quality of pitching in general between what Ted faced and Bonds faces, yes.

I guess I was saying you're wrong. Since you obviously feel the same way towards me, let's just agree to disagree. :shrug:

[Showtime]

Many players took them, including Mark McGuire (retired), but Bonds is being singled out because the media/general public doesn't like him and because he is black and breaking records. Why is everyone leaving Mark McGuire alone? Shouldn't he receive the same amount of scrutiny? Look at the numbers back then and see if and of those big time sluggers have matched them since? Every one of those players, whos' number's spiked and have now dipped is suspect imo.

I, like most people, don't care for Bonds. Regardless, I still wish the Dodgers went after him when he was having all those problems with the Giants.

[guiseppewv]

1+2 true but he played for all those years and he's not supposed to grow? He worked out and ate obviously...isn't it safe to say that all college athletes bulk up once they go pro?

3+4 baseball didn't ban andro use until after McGwire admitted to using it; whether scientists regard it as a "steroid" is inconsequential since obviously the MLB didn't think it was and all proof of andro (AFAIK) has shown that andro helps you bulk up when you work out; it doesn't just make someone "big" just by them taking it

5 Canseco's been out of the limelight for how long now? He'd say anything to make a quick buck which brings us to

6 Palmeiro testing positive now doesn't do anything to collaborate Conseco's story because Palmeiro could have started using recently (and he didn't actually use it when he was Canseco's teammate) meaning (again) Canseco is full of crap.

Innocent until proven guilty...no proof that Mac used.
People can say "well he didn't say that he didn't use steroids" but that's hogwash...he's been out of baseball for how long now? He doesn't have anyone that he has to answer to and they were looking for a witch hunt and he didn't oblige. No matter what he would've done they would've crucified him for it.
-He admits it, he's made a mockery of in the press, his entire career is asterisked and tarnished
-He doesn't admit it, his career stands but people start believing that he's lying and they call him out

Bonds on the other hand...:rolleyes: the case is mounting against him. His excuses are complete BS...geez have some f'n balls and just admit it. "I was poopy" yeah whatever BARRY :stupid: the only thing poopy in here is your excuses

Wake up. MM probably used roids too. You say that Raffy didn't use while he was a teammate of Conseco's - how do you know this for certain? It is very possible that MM did roids. Why, in the twilight of you career, would you suddenly produce the most HRs, in a season, during your career, 2 seasons in a row? Sorry to say but look at every sports figure - production decreases as they get older, not the other way around. Just look at the other baseball players in history. Ruth, Williams, Cobb, Rose, Aaron, etc.... Don't try to discredit Conseco just b/c you don't like what he is saying. He said Raffy used and everyone, esp the O's fans in B-more (I have to admit I thought Raffy was a stand-up guy but I am die-hard Pirates fan), laughed and called BS. Guess what? He was right Raffy was found to be on roids last year which supports and jives with what Conseco said in his book.

As far as his congressional testimony or lack thereof:
Actually he did have something to gain - if he would have said that he didn't do it then he would have looked much more innocent and credible. To sit there and dodge the questions makes you look guilty.


Many players took them, including Mark McGuire (retired), but Bonds is being singled out because the media/general public doesn't like him and because he is black and breaking records. Why is everyone leaving Mark McGuire alone? Shouldn't he receive the same amount of scrutiny? Look at the numbers back then and see if and of those big time sluggers have matched them since? Every one of those players, whos' number's spiked and have now dipped is suspect imo.

I, like most people, don't care for Bonds. Regardless, I still wish the Dodgers went after him when he was having all those problems with the Giants.


I disagree with what youa re saying. He is a current "baseball god", as some would like to refer to him. Why go after a peon when you can take down the head-cheese? He is under scrutiny b/c the network that he was getting roids from was exposed and his involvement was uncovered. If McGwire would have been implicated (yes, this is a what-if) he would be undergoing the same scrutiny.

[zenbooty]

I guess I was saying you're wrong. Since you obviously feel the same way towards me, let's just agree to disagree. :shrug:
oh, c'mon, this is baseball, not religion or politics :heh:.

[MikeD]

oh, c'mon, this is baseball, not religion or politics :heh:.

Ehhh, I see what you're saying. OK then...you're wrong. Bonds is the greatest hitter ever. Williams couldn't hold his dick. :hehehmm:

[zenbooty]

Ehhh, I see what you're saying. OK then...you're wrong. Bonds is the greatest hitter ever. Williams couldn't hold his dick. :hehehmm:He couldn't find it after all those 'roids shrunk Bonds down to, like, a clitoris! :heh:

[guiseppewv]

He couldn't find it after all those 'roids shrunk Bonds down to, like, a clitoris! :heh:


:heh: Ball-less freak.

[gwilks98]

You're right there is no proof Big Mac did anything wrong. And since he chose to go quietly into the night nobody is looking at him too hard.

See this is the really sad part. He could very well be perfectly clean but in this day and age players like him almost have to prove their innocence....

<snip>
All circumstantial evidence to be sure but man, as a rational person tell me what conclusion you would draw from that.


Nah. People like McGwire.
Concerning the home run record: He didn't get caught up in lies and a big f'n ego. He was humble that entire season and was very good to professional baseball. He was massive when he came to St. Louis, so if he had used steroids, it was most likely back with the A's. Until someone proves it otherwise, he didn't cheat. He broke no rules.

Bonds did. The argument I make isn't about using performance enhancers. It's about abusing the league drug policy to gain an advantage over other players. He then lied about it. Repeatedly.

Mark always acted with class. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_19990808/ai_n10529232

Bonds, well, he's an arrogant SOB. He's classless, a poor example and is not the type of player I would want my kids looking up to.

[LegendKiller]

He couldn't find it after all those 'roids shrunk Bonds down to, like, a clitoris! :heh:


Wow dude, that is so bad, but so damn funny....:lmfao:

[MikeD]

:cry: on and on, haters. See you when I roll past the Babe in a few weeks...:hehehmm:

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/2006/03/06/bonds.years/2004_017022893.jpg

[eSDee]

It may be a bit longer than a few weeks:


Selig reportedly considering suspending Bonds

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. - Bud Selig wants to read the book before making any decisions about Barry Bonds, but he is apparently is considering a wide range of responses, including suspension, one report said.

"It's even worse than I thought," Selig said, the Chicago Tribune reported Thursday, citing an unnamed source who discussed the situation with him.

Selig wouldn't rule out suspending Bonds, the Tribune reported, citing a "highly placed MLB source." Although Selig is known for not acting quickly, he could issue a suspension before the Giants' home opener April 3, the Tribune reported.

more here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11733583/

[zenbooty]

Wow dude, that is so bad, but so damn funny....:lmfao:
Never underestimate me when it comes to low humor of questionable taste. I often shock people. :thumbup:


It may be a bit longer than a few weeks:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11733583/
In the words of that German dude in the VW commercials:

"Oh, shnap!"

[guiseppewv]

Nah. People like McGwire.
Concerning the home run record: He didn't get caught up in lies and a big f'n ego. He was humble that entire season and was very good to professional baseball. He was massive when he came to St. Louis, so if he had used steroids, it was most likely back with the A's. Until someone proves it otherwise, he didn't cheat. He broke no rules.


I liked the home run race and McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds before this whole scandle as much as the next guy but.....

I think McGwire is suspect and to say anything else just isn't the truth. If he had nothing to hide he could have answered the same questions in congress that he did while being interviewed by the press months before. :shrug:


Never underestimate me when it comes to low humor of questionable taste. I often shock people. :thumbup:


In the words of that German dude in the VW commercials:

"Oh, shnap!"


I love those commercials.....I guess b/c they are stupid and they make fun of ricers. :D

[gwilks98]

I think McGwire is suspect and to say anything else just isn't the truth. If he had nothing to hide he could have answered the same questions in congress that he did while being interviewed by the press months before. :shrug:



I don't know...I'm not a blind St. Louis McGwire follower, but I felt the whole congressional thing was all for show to begin with...designed to take the nation's attention off of other things going on. Steriod abuse is rampant in professional weightlifters. Congress doesn't seem to care about that. Baseball became a scapegoat and it should never have gone to a congressional hearing. Drug abuse investigations should be left to the DEA. If I were in McGwire's shoes, I would have told congress to eff off.

Do I think McGwire took steriods at one point in his career? Possibly. But how is that a congressional matter? He had everything to lose by talking to someone about something that wasn't any of their business. And that's really what he said.

[guiseppewv]

I don't know...I'm not a blind St. Louis McGwire follower, but I felt the whole congressional thing was all for show to begin with...designed to take the nation's attention off of other things going on. Steriod abuse is rampant in professional weightlifters. Congress doesn't seem to care about that. Baseball became a scapegoat and it should never have gone to a congressional hearing. Drug abuse investigations should be left to the DEA. If I were in McGwire's shoes, I would have told congress to eff off.

Do I think McGwire took steriods at one point in his career? Possibly. But how is that a congressional matter? He had everything to lose by talking to someone about something that wasn't any of their business. And that's really what he said.

I agree that it isn't a congressional matter but when you are under oath and you refuse to answer questions that you already answered when questioned by reporters then you are hiding something. The fact that he was in front of congress....in my opinion....is irrelavent.

So what if it is rampent in weightlifters.?.?.? How does going after weightlifters set an example? If you go after the "big dog" on the block and make an example of them that could have a positive affect on steriod abuse in other sports but going after weightlifters, although justified, would have no affect on "big" sports.

[MikeD]

Alright Bonds haters, step up and slam a good Yankee like Sheff in the same manner you do Barry...


Yankees slugger Gary Sheffield (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4268) injected testosterone and human growth hormone in January 2002, according to the latest revelations in "Game of Shadows," a book written by two San Francisco Chronicle reporters.

Excerpts from the book appeared earlier this month in Sports Illustrated, giving graphic detail of Barry Bonds (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=3918)' alleged use of a vast array of performance-enhancing drugs, including steroids and human growth hormone.

Sheffield, who in 2003 reportedly admitted to a federal grand jury to unknowingly having used a steroid cream, also sought to maintain a relationship with Bonds' trainer Greg Anderson after Bonds and Sheffield had a falling out in 2002, according to the book's authors. Anderson was among four convicted in the BALCO steroid distribution scandal.

In a 2004 interview with Sports Illustrated, Sheffield said he thought "the cream" was cortisone-based -- he applied it to his surgically repaired knee -- and that he so little suspected its true ingredients that he openly kept it in his locker.

According to the book, Sheffield attempted to obtain "the cream" and "the clear," another designer steroid, through Anderson after Sheffield and Bonds had severed their relationship.

Anderson reportedly kept a drug calendar that documented Sheffield's use of HGH and testosterone.

:faint: A cheater! A cheater! Ban him and his numbers from the game!


;)


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2380226

[guiseppewv]

Sounds good to me. Ban him and recind any records that he holds.

[gwilks98]

I agree that it isn't a congressional matter but when you are under oath and you refuse to answer questions that you already answered when questioned by reporters then you are hiding something. The fact that he was in front of congress....in my opinion....is irrelavent.

So what if it is rampent in weightlifters.?.?.? How does going after weightlifters set an example? If you go after the "big dog" on the block and make an example of them that could have a positive affect on steriod abuse in other sports but going after weightlifters, although justified, would have no affect on "big" sports.

I don't think it's irrelevant. If someone approaches me and asks me about whether I cheated at my job based on HEARSAY, and that person wasn't my boss, I'd tell them nothing. You have everything to lose by answering. All it takes is one more self serving jerk to claim something and it makes you look like a liar if you say no. If you say yes, you lose again.

I'm not saying you can't make an example out of big sports. But if you make it the only example, that's going to make people (like me) question your true motives. Congress really doesn't give a hoot about steriod abuse. It's a political hot button, nothing more to them. What have they done since then?

[Merlin]

:faint: A cheater! A cheater! Ban him and his numbers from the game!

Sadly, this does not surprise me at all. Sheff's use of the cream and clear was mentioned quite a while ago. Does he still use? If so then a banning is in order. If he is clean now then okay.

And Sheff is someone with hall of fame numbers. Right now I don't think he gets in.

[guiseppewv]

I don't think it's irrelevant. If someone approaches me and asks me about whether I cheated at my job based on HEARSAY, and that person wasn't my boss, I'd tell them nothing. You have everything to lose by answering. All it takes is one more self serving jerk to claim something and it makes you look like a liar if you say no. If you say yes, you lose again.

I'm not saying you can't make an example out of big sports. But if you make it the only example, that's going to make people (like me) question your true motives. Congress really doesn't give a hoot about steriod abuse. It's a political hot button, nothing more to them. What have they done since then?

If you answered these same questions when the news media asked then why can't you answer them when congress asks? I'll answer that question - because you are under oath and lying then would be perjury, a felony.

[VTGreg]

It is really amazing how hypocritical most of the media is on this subject. Someone allegedly took steriods, ban them and erase their numbers from the baseball history books. Someone used amphetamines or doctored a baseball, well that's just part of baseball and is acceptable.

Kind of amazing when you consider steriods don't have any direct impact on the baseball game (they allow someone to work out longer with shorter recovery time) but doctoring a baseball actually changes the way a baseball reacts during a game.

[guiseppewv]

I agree that doctoring a baseball is bad but your comment on steroids having no affect on baseball is not valid. A player who is stronger b/c of roids will have balls that normally would be fly balls into the outfield become home runs. That will change the outcome of the game.

[MikeD]

It is really amazing how hypocritical most of the media is on this subject. Someone allegedly took steriods, ban them and erase their numbers from the baseball history books. Someone used amphetamines or doctored a baseball, well that's just part of baseball and is acceptable.

EXACTLY.

Bonds has been persecuted beyond belief, while others have nearly gotten a free pass. What about pitchers like Niekro who made a living off scuffing baseballs? Is that not cheating?

The problem is that Bonds has no problem telling the media where to shove it. Never has, never will. I think that's why I like the guy so much. It's cost him dearly, though, in how he's portrayed and how the public sees him.

[nickel]

Alright Bonds haters, step up and slam a good Yankee like Sheff in the same manner you do Barry...



:faint: A cheater! A cheater! Ban him and his numbers from the game!


;)


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2380226
yeh, he didn't totally come clean, but he's still better than someone like McGuire, or Sosa who won't admit to anything, and well..... we know better.

[cheapie]

EXACTLY.

Bonds has been persecuted beyond belief, while others have nearly gotten a free pass. What about pitchers like Niekro who made a living off scuffing baseballs? Is that not cheating?

The problem is that Bonds has no problem telling the media where to shove it. Never has, never will. I think that's why I like the guy so much. It's cost him dearly, though, in how he's portrayed and how the public sees him.

the problem is that bonds, by virtue of his poor attitude and monster homers has drawn attention to himself. shef will never be the star that bonds is and people won't care as much.

[MikeD]

the problem is that bonds, by virtue of his poor attitude and monster homers has drawn attention to himself. shef will never be the star that bonds is and people won't care as much.

Well, that in itself is a problem. Both are accused of doing the same thing. One shouldn't be worse than the other.

BTW, Sheff isn't exactly an angel. He's an @hole too. Well, he's a Yankee so we already knew that. :hihi:

[nickel]

Well, that in itself is a problem. Both are accused of doing the same thing. One shouldn't be worse than the other.

BTW, Sheff isn't exactly an angel. He's an @hole too. Well, he's a Yankee so we already knew that. :hihi:
kiss my yankee lovin' ass ;) :kiss:

[cheapie]

http://www.yankee-hater.com/yankeehater/images/store/YS-poster.gif

[eSDee]

At least if Sheffield and some other folks get outed for using steroids, Barry will look less like such a bad guy. It's probably just a matter of time before a bunch more players are exposed. If Sammy Sosa comes out and admits it or he is exposed by someone else, I will be greatly disappointed as he was/is one of my favorite players. I really liked what he brought to the Cubs and the class he showed (up until the city turned on him that is). If he is found guilty of steroid use, he should have an asterisk by his numbers as well.

[Merlin]

Alright Bonds haters, step up and slam a good Yankee like Sheff in the same manner you do Barry...

See the other key difference you're missing is performance. If Sheff were hitting 70 homers per year and approaching Babe and Aaron then he would be getting the same scorn. By virtue of is accomplishments Barry gets more attention. But both do deserve scorn.


...I really liked what he brought to the Cubs ......
what he brought....:idea:Oh I get it...you mean corked bats. :hehehmm:

[nickel]

Fri, March 24, 2006
Bonds will sue over book
By AP

SAN FRANCISCO -- Barry Bonds plans to sue the authors and publisher of a book that alleges the San Francisco Giants slugger used steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs.

Bonds' lawyers sent a letter yesterday to an agent for the authors of Game of Shadows, alerting them of plans to sue the writers, publisher Gotham Books, the San Francisco Chronicle and Sports Illustrated, which published excerpts this month.

The letter, signed by Alison Berry Wilkinson, an associate of Bonds' lead lawyer, Michael Rains, was posted on the Chronicle's website. A hearing was tentatively scheduled for today in San Francisco Superior Court.

"The reason we filed in the lawsuit in the simplest terms possible is to prevent the authors from promoting themselves and profiting from illegal conduct," Rains told The Associated Press yesterday.

He said laws prohibit people from possessing grand jury materials unless they are unsealed and said authors Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, both also reporters for the Chronicle, "have made a complete farce of the criminal justice system."


The book, released yesterday, claims Bonds used steroids, human growth hormone, insulin and other banned substances for at least five seasons beginning in 1998.

"We certainly stand by our reporters and the reporting they did for us," Chronicle executive vice-president and editor Phil Bronstein said. "Nothing that's happened will change that."

Bonds' legal team will ask a judge today to issue a temporary restraining order forfeiting all profits from publication and distribution, according to the letter. The lawyers plan to file the suit under California's unfair competition law.

The lawyers will ask a federal judge to initiate contempt proceedings "for the use of illegally obtained" grand jury transcripts the authors used in writing the book. Rains said profits should be forfeited because of that.

"What we're saying is, who are the real cheaters? They are the ones who are using these illegally obtained materials," Rains said.
http://winnipegsun.com/Sports/Baseball/2006/03/24/1503070-sun.html

so, do i have this right - he isn't denying the allegations in the book he's sueing because of the means by which the information was gathered?

[MikeD]

http://winnipegsun.com/Sports/Baseball/2006/03/24/1503070-sun.html

so, do i have this right - he isn't denying the allegations in the book he's sueing because of the means by which the information was gathered?

Sorry, can't help out Yankee fans. Shove it... ;)

[nickel]

Sorry, can't help out Yankee fans. Shove it... ;)
:laugh: :kiss:

i've had worse said to me when someone found out i was a Yankee fan. :P

oh and this thread needs spicing up. :D

:love: http://www.theins.org/thenews/derekjeter.jpg :love:

[Merlin]

Sorry, can't help out Yankee fans. Shove it... ;)
:ptlaugh: Okay I'm a Yankke fan too and even I can admit that was funny.

[MikeD]

Damn near blasphemous to have a pic of some second rate, no good, nearly washed up, bisexual SS like Jeter in the same thread as a God like Bonds...:disa:

OK, run with that one...

[guiseppewv]

http://winnipegsun.com/Sports/Baseball/2006/03/24/1503070-sun.html

so, do i have this right - he isn't denying the allegations in the book he's sueing because of the means by which the information was gathered?

Yes. Which is funny. :D.........and not in a good way. :P


He said laws prohibit people from possessing grand jury materials unless they are unsealed and said authors Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, both also reporters for the Chronicle, "have made a complete farce of the criminal justice system."

This is even funnier. He is claiming they "made a complete farce of the criminal justice system." which I find funny. They have made a farce of the criminal justice system (steroids are illegal) and of the baseball records that BB holds.

[VTGreg]

I agree that doctoring a baseball is bad but your comment on steroids having no affect on baseball is not valid. A player who is stronger b/c of roids will have balls that normally would be fly balls into the outfield become home runs. That will change the outcome of the game.

I agree that steriods have an impact on the game, but it is an indirect impact. A player can take steriods so he can work out longer and recover faster, but he still has to put in all the time and effort to work out and get stronger. I don't consider that the same thing as doctoring a baseball so it reacts differently in a baseball game.

Amphetamines were much more rampant during baseball and those allowed players to be more alert and focus on the game. IMO, these had as much of an impact on baseball and it's history as steriods but no one is saying that players that used amphetamines should have their records released.

My overall point was that I find it hypocritical to attack the players that used steriods and not go after the other players that have used other methods to cheat and question their records.

[Merlin]

I don't consider that the same thing as doctoring a baseball so it reacts differently in a baseball game.

Average life of a baseball is 6 pitches. Average career of steriod user ten plus years. You're right not to consider these two things to be equal. And with all the cameras and the like doctoring baseballs is a tousand times more of a headgame than anything real. It hasn't happened on any kind of consistent basis in decades.



Amphetamines were much more rampant during baseball and those allowed players to be more alert and focus on the game. IMO, these had as much of an impact on baseball and it's history as steriods but no one is saying that players that used amphetamines should have their records released.

Uppers are only and enabler they don't make you better. Performance enablers vs. performance enhancers. Big difference between the two. Uppers have recently been banned but players will be allowed to switch to energy drinks or just plain old coffee. No meaningful impact on the game. Players might think they are playing better but we all know uppers do more harm than good.

[nickel]

Damn near blasphemous to have a pic of some second rate, no good, nearly washed up, bisexual SS like Jeter in the same thread as a God like Bonds...:disa:

OK, run with that one...
ok, i'm running :D

look at how close i was to him at this game. i could almost have reached out and smacked his cute firm round ballplayer butt. :love:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/BedBunny/jeter.jpg

[AlpineJay]

speaking of the Yankees - just got my season tix today. looking forward to going on opening day and giving JD his welcome.

not a huge fan of him, but it's definitely an in-your-face to the boston fans.

*sigh* this in-your-face-Boston attitude is a bad trait I only grew after living in Boston and being SURROUNDED by this attitude for the last 5+ years.

[Showtime]

Missed this....


Nah. People like McGwire.
Concerning the home run record: He didn't get caught up in lies and a big f'n ego. He was humble that entire season and was very good to professional baseball. He was massive when he came to St. Louis, so if he had used steroids, it was most likely back with the A's. Until someone proves it otherwise, he didn't cheat. He broke no rules.

Muscle is very hard to maintain. You always peak and then fall off a little. They don't have proof, because they aren't looking. He used something and according to your deifinition, did cheat.



Bonds did. The argument I make isn't about using performance enhancers. It's about abusing the league drug policy to gain an advantage over other players. He then lied about it. Repeatedly.

So far only Conseco has flat out admitted to it and he did that to sell books.
Until McGuire admits to it, I don't see why you should expect anyone else to.



Mark always acted with class. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_19990808/ai_n10529232

I like McGuire, but he cheated.



Bonds, well, he's an arrogant SOB. He's classless, a poor example and is not the type of player I would want my kids looking up to.

I don't think kids should look up to any athlete, but it's hard to ignore the skills/abilities that the elite athletes have. Regardless of his bad personality/color of his skin, he shouldn't be judged any harsher than anyone else. They all did it. He was just head and shoulders above them after he took it.

[MikeD]

Oh BTW, I'm on fire already. How many is it again until I pass the Babe?


SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. (AP) -- Barry Bonds (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=3918) overcame distraction and inaction yet again to do what he does best.

Bonds hit his fourth homer of the spring on his first swing in five days, sending a two-run shot to right field in the first inning of the San Francisco Giants (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=sfo)' 11-4 loss to the Los Angeles Angels on Wednesday night.

Bonds, a cool 9-for-13 (.692) in spring training, wouldn't speak with reporters before or after his first exhibition appearance since Friday. He won't make the trip to face the Milwaukee Brewers (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=mil) on Thursday, but could play the whole game when San Francisco hosts Colorado on Friday.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=260322126


http://www.baseballxxl.de/Stars/_Stars_2/barry_bonds03.jpg

[Showtime]

Looks like he's planning to silence his critics the old fashioned way.

[Merlin]

So far only Conseco has flat out admitted to it and he did that to sell books.
So did Ken Caminiti.

[MikeD]

Hi. I'm Barry. In case you didn't know, I'm now only 3 HR's shy of catching the Babe. :hihi:

Just sayin'...


http://www.ruggedelegantliving.com/a/images/barry.bonds.jpg


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=260426126

[gwilks98]

Missed this....



Muscle is very hard to maintain. You always peak and then fall off a little. They don't have proof, because they aren't looking. He used something and according to your deifinition, did cheat.



So far only Conseco has flat out admitted to it and he did that to sell books.
Until McGuire admits to it, I don't see why you should expect anyone else to.



I like McGuire, but he cheated.



I don't think kids should look up to any athlete, but it's hard to ignore the skills/abilities that the elite athletes have. Regardless of his bad personality/color of his skin, he shouldn't be judged any harsher than anyone else. They all did it. He was just head and shoulders above them after he took it.

HOLY crap...I wish I would have seen this sooner. Color of his skin has absolutely zero to do with my opinion of poor unfortunate barry.


and that's what i call him. mr. self appraising, I'm so wonderful yet poor unfortunate me barry.

I understand free speech is "free" in this country, but how dare you acuse me of that?

[guiseppewv]

Looks like he's planning to silence his critics the old fashioned way.


By taking some more 'roids?

[Showtime]

By taking some more 'roids?

Homerun 711... He might not break hank's record, but he is sure to break the babes.

I don't like Bonds as a person or player, but he is being singled out.
When the homerun derbies took off, baseball was at an all time low due to the strikes, etc. McGuire, Sosa, etc. lit pitchers up and set records. It brought people back the the stadiums and got them to watch it on tv again. It greatly helped baseball and probably saved MLB from having to make changes to stay competitive.

Now everyone is trying to punish one person for doing the same things that helped save baseball. Punish 'Barroid' instead of the whole group of people who used roids. YOU are trying to make an example out of Bonds because of out of all the obvious steroid users, Bonds is the least liked. The fact that McGuire doesn't play won't cut it because Sosa is still playing and he isn't getting any heat. Then again Sosa came in 2nd. McGuire got to bask in the glory of his accomplishments and became people's baseball hero by CHEATING. Let's string McGuire up too! Time for reporters to camp out at his door and try to get interviews, video, other peoples insights *cough opinions* and as much dirt as possible on him. Interview his son, ex wife, ex team mates, trainers and yeah, the people who supplied him with the roids he used to hit 71 homeruns.

I can understand the sportswriters doing this because they are low lifes who make their money off of turning sports into male soap operas. But when normal people can't see past that bs and join in, it is pathetic.

[cheapie]

first, mark was a cool person and bonds is a tool. that draws fire right away. and sosa sucks now. why would people be paying any attention to him now?

it wasn't known that mark was doing roids during his run. barry is headed towards breaking some of the most hallowed records in baseball...by cheating.

of course you could say mark did the same thing. but the roid use wasn't really known then.

[MikeD]

first, mark was a cool person and bonds is a tool. that draws fire right away. and sosa sucks now. why would people be paying any attention to him now?

it wasn't known that mark was doing roids during his run. barry is headed towards breaking some of the most hallowed records in baseball...by cheating.

of course you could say mark did the same thing. but the roid use wasn't really known then.

So one guy is a media darling, and the other tells them to shove it...that means we should single one out?

So one guy is still one of the games most dangerous hitters, while the other guys sucks...that means we should single one out?

Whether or not 'roid use was known, it's pretty obvious that McGwire was just as big of an offender (if not bigger) than Barry. Yet we all cheered his records, how great it was for the game, even that his son was able to share it with him on the field. And still, Barry is a cheater, ban him, ban his records.

I'm with Showtime; that's not right. McGwire is no better than Bonds. Neither was Canseco, Caminiti...the list goes on and on. Bonds being singled out is a joke.

[cheapie]

I'm not sure what to say. Are you saying that Bonds should get a free pass becaus e sosa and mark got a free pass? Or are you saying that we should retroactively go after those two?

[MikeD]

I'm not sure what to say. Are you saying that Bonds should get a free pass becaus e sosa and mark got a free pass? Or are you saying that we should retroactively go after those two?

I'm saying that Bonds is not the only one who should be chastised, past or present. If Barry's records get wiped out, so should theirs.

We should also look just as closely at all players. Is Bonds truly the only guy (among active players) who has "cheated"? If not, those guys should be villified just as much.

[eSDee]

Sosa retired.

[cheapie]

I'm saying that Bonds is not the only one who should be chastised, past or present. If Barry's records get wiped out, so should theirs.

We should also look just as closely at all players. Is Bonds truly the only guy (among active players) who has "cheated"? If not, those guys should be villified just as much.


again....those guys aren't currently playing while chasing a major record after having massive evidence of doping dropped on the public.

[MikeD]

Would Bonds be less of a cheater if he only had 400 career HR's?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but to me it sounds like that is what's being said here. To me, cheating is cheating regardless of the associated factors (here, chasing the all-time HR record).

[Merlin]

Would Bonds be less of a cheater if he only had 400 career HR's?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but to me it sounds like that is what's being said here. To me, cheating is cheating regardless of the associated factors (here, chasing the all-time HR record).
That is a great question. Yes, cheating is cheating and they should all face the music. But if you are going to cheat AND maintain the highest possible profile while doing it, then you should expect to be the primary lightning rod for the issue.

[guiseppewv]

Bonds is a cheater - period. So was McGuire and anyone else who used roids. I have to agree with Merlin - if you are at the top and cheating then you are bringing more smack down upon yourself.

[MikeD]

But if you are going to cheat AND maintain the highest possible profile while doing it

Bonds is a cheater - period. So was McGuire and anyone else who used roids. I have to agree with Merlin - if you are at the top and cheating then you are bringing more smack down upon yourself.

I don't think Bonds tries to maintain a high profile. I think, if anything, he tries to avoid the limelight. The media hounds the guy like a Duke lacrosse player, though. ;)

As for the "being on top" stuff: it can go two ways. Either the effects of his 'roiding were greater than his peers, or he's simply a better player. Who's to say? I know I think he's simply more talented, and that has translated into great career numbers. The guy does have 700 HR/500 SB after all...but you can certainly craft an argument for the other. :shrug:

[cheapie]

ugh...


Oliveras, an Airman 1st Class who lives on McGuire Air Force Base in Fort Dix, N.J., paid $20 for his seat in Section 202, Row 7, Seat 24.

He said he is a Bonds fan and would probably keep the ball. He hoped it would have Bonds' signature.

Bonds said no when he was asked at his news conference if he would sign the ball if a fan wanted an autograph. Moments later, when an official asked if there were any more questions, Oliveras piped up:

"Will you sign my ball?"

Bonds smirked and said nothing.

After his news conference, Bonds shook Oliveras' hand and took a picture with him.

"I'm happy because I got a picture and he shook my hand," he said.

There was one signature needed though. Oliveras had to sign a waiver for Bonds' reality show.

:rolleyes:

[MikeD]

Yeah, bad PR move on Bonds' part. Should have signed the ball. However, good chance the ball would have wound up on eBay fetching $1,000 or so. Why should Bonds play into that?

All in all, still should have signed. JMO though...:shrug:

[guiseppewv]

ugh...



:rolleyes:

Bonds is just an arrogant pr1ck.

[MikeD]

714. :hihi:

http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ma/maxima1/Bonds01.jpg


http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ma/maxima1/Bonds.jpg

[TofuNinja]

what a dick, man, an Airman who defends our country wanted the ball signed and Barry didn't do it..... Barry sucks man. I'll gladly cheer everytime he gets beaned man. Screw that.

[nickel]

The Great Shambino :P

[guiseppewv]

Took him what - 1000 more at bats to do it? I cannot remember the number so feel free to correct me. I thought that is what I heard on the radio.

[zippyjuan]

In a way I hope he finally breaks it. Then we won't hear about him as much. Babe hit hardly anything after he reached 40, but then he lived life harder.

[MikeD]

Took him what - 1000 more at bats to do it? I cannot remember the number so feel free to correct me. I thought that is what I heard on the radio.

C'mon. If we have to hear about how he has an advantage b/c of the 'roids, let's hear about the advantage Babe had: not having to hit the power pitchers that Bonds faces every day.

[Butch]

The Babe was leaps and bounds ahead of any other hitters of his time . . . he had - in a season - more home runs than entire teams.

While there are definitely differences in the abilities of athletes on an absolute level between now and The Babe's time, Ruth was so far ahead of anyone else in his time that he cannot be compared to anyone nowadays as they relate to the rest of the league.

The only reason that Bonds is ahead is because of steroids.

Without a doubt, he is an extraordinarily talented individual - I wish I had half the level of baseball talent that Bonds has. He is a great hitter, but I hate the impact he has on the game right now.

Even if many other competitors in the league are using steroids, being the most effective cheater of all the cheaters is not something to be proud of.

While physically he is quite strong, he strikes me as an exceptionally weak individual - determined, but weak.

[gwilks98]

C'mon. If we have to hear about how he has an advantage b/c of the 'roids, let's hear about the advantage Babe had: not having to hit the power pitchers that Bonds faces every day.

Yeah, but didn't Babe play in bigger parks?

[zero2dash]

There was one signature needed though. Oliveras had to sign a waiver for Bonds' reality show.

I wouldn't have signed it; f him.
You sign my ball, I sign your waiver. You don't sign, I don't sign.

I'll be glad once this @$$ retires. :bonk:
I'll also be glad to see him fall flat on his face and not break Aaron's record either.

[guiseppewv]

C'mon. If we have to hear about how he has an advantage b/c of the 'roids, let's hear about the advantage Babe had: not having to hit the power pitchers that Bonds faces every day.


Then lets talk about the technology that the babe did not have. We can go back and forth all day long on this one. Simple fact is that Bonds was not a hr hitter until he started the roids.

[MikeD]

Then lets talk about the technology that the babe did not have. We can go back and forth all day long on this one.

:shakehand

Agreed, it could go back and forth. I think it's simply a "I like him, you don't" thing that we'll have to agree on.


Simple fact is that Bonds was not a hr hitter until he started the roids.

Disagree here. Bonds HR stats from '93-'97 (prior to 'roids):

93 - 46
94 - 37
95 - 33
96 - 42
97 - 40

Total: 198. Average of 39.6 per year. To me, those are power numbers. :shrug:

[Yossarian]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060512

[guiseppewv]

:shakehand

Agreed, it could go back and forth. I think it's simply a "I like him, you don't" thing that we'll have to agree on.




FYI: I liked Barry a lot before the steroids issue came out.



Disagree here. Bonds HR stats from '93-'97 (prior to 'roids):

93 - 46
94 - 37
95 - 33
96 - 42
97 - 40

Total: 198. Average of 39.6 per year. To me, those are power numbers. :shrug:
1986 - 16
1987 - 25
1988 - 24
1989 - 19
1990 - 33
1991 - 25
1992 - 34
1993 - 46
1994 - 37
1995 - 33
1996 - 42
1997 - 40
1998 - 37
1999 - 34

Total: 445 HRs
Average: 31.8 HRs/yr

After 1999:
2000 - 49
2001 - 73
2002 - 46
2003 - 45
2004 - 45
Average: 51.6 HRs/yr

Bigger than these 2 averages is the fact that in the years from 1986 to 1999 he consistently had over 500 AB (as high as 580 AB in 1989) per season but from 2000-2004 he never had over 480 in a season.

[MikeD]

I still 32 HR's (on average) for that long of a period is indicative of a HR hitter. I see what the number say, I was simply stating that I think he's always been a power guy. BTW, throw out that 73 HR season and see what the numbers say...

As for AB's: hey, I guess he became a more selective hitter. And a better one. ;)

[VTGreg]

FYI: I liked Barry a lot before the steroids issue came out.


1986 - 16
1987 - 25
1988 - 24
1989 - 19
1990 - 33
1991 - 25
1992 - 34
1993 - 46
1994 - 37
1995 - 33
1996 - 42
1997 - 40
1998 - 37
1999 - 34

Total: 445 HRs
Average: 31.8 HRs/yr

After 1999:
2000 - 49
2001 - 73
2002 - 46
2003 - 45
2004 - 45
Average: 51.6 HRs/yr

Bigger than these 2 averages is the fact that in the years from 1986 to 1999 he consistently had over 500 AB (as high as 580 AB in 1989) per season but from 2000-2004 he never had over 480 in a season.

Which of the pre-1999 years was the strike shortened year? Looks to me like he was off to quite a start that year.

Also, Pujols is on a tear this season and they were showing his start compared with some of the other great homerun hitting starts in history. 2nd or 3rd on the list was Barry Bonds and while I don't remember exactly what year it was, it was in the mid-1990's.

Your numbers are skewed because of Bonds first few years when he wasn't a power hitter. If you take his totals from 1993 (The first year he hit over 40 HRs) and take his average from 1993 to 1999, it's 38.4 HRs per year. Obviously this average is below his average after 1999, but it is much closer than previously said.

[zippyjuan]

Babe Ruth wanted to be the biggest and baddest thing in his era. If steroids had been know in his day, it would not have been surprising if he would have used them. He was not only the biggest hitter, but also the biggest drinker and the biggest womanizer. But that said, he was still so far above what anyone else in his era did that I think that alone says that the Babe was probably a better player. The relative placement to his peers in his accomplishments is higher than that of Bonds.

[MikeD]

Ahem...


MILWAUKEE -- Barry Bonds hit his 734th career home run Saturday night, breaking Hank Aaron's NL record in the same city where the Hall of Fame slugger started and ended his major league career.

The San Francisco Giants star hit a 1-0 pitch from Milwaukee's Chris Capuano over the right-center fence in the third inning, just out of the reach of outfielders Brady Clark and Corey Hart.

Bonds, who hit No. 733 and drove in a season-high six runs Friday night, is 21 homers shy of Aaron's career mark of 755. It was Bonds' 26th home run of the season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2600308

[MikeD]

Ahem...

755.

Congratulations to Barry on his accomplishment...

http://www.raymondkwan.com/uploader2/files/1052/Bonds.jpg

[zippyjuan]

I had a feeling that he would hit one in San Deigo this week. It seems to be his favorite park on the road. Now he wants to break the record in frindly San Fransisco.

Other milestones this week- ARod- youngest to get to 500 home runs. Tom Glavine picks up his 300th win.

[Maarchk]

You really think its a good record? I think its sad if it is accepted as official by MLB. Basically it says, we know people cheated, but thats ok, cause lots of guys did it.
This is disgraceful to baseball and I dont really feel like watching the sport as it is still tainted. Known offenders are playing and some like bonds, were never punished for their wrong doing.
BOOO

[DarkFury]

... and then some folks will always harbor "sour grapes".

Honestly, life in general nowadays seems "tainted" when compared to the days of yesteryear.

A historical "champion" could have been a drunk, womanizing, gambler, but yet they are still "champions" because back then people didn't care quite as much for their misdeeds in light of their accomplishments.

But oh... we are so "Holier than thou" these days. :rolleyes:

[Markel]

I read an interesting article today about Bond's "elbow protector":
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003621797

[DarkFury]

I read an interesting article today about Bond's "elbow protector":
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003621797
Geez, they are pullin' out all the shovels diggin' for dirt now aren't they?


Where will it end???? :shrug:

[Markel]

Geez, they are pullin' out all the shovels diggin' for dirt now aren't they?


Where will it end???? :shrug:
Well, if corked bats are illegal, shouldn't other "mechanical enhancements" be considered as well?

[VTGreg]

Well, if corked bats are illegal, shouldn't other "mechanical enhancements" be considered as well?

It would be interesting to prove out this guy's theory. It does sound like a relatively far-fetched hypothesis to further sully Bond's reputation and accomplishments.

[Prngr44]

I don't think the scrutiny on Bonds or his record (*) will ever end until it's broken by someone relatively "clean."

[DarkFury]

Well, if corked bats are illegal, shouldn't other "mechanical enhancements" be considered as well?
So what's next?

Prevent players from wearing knee braces, shin guards, knee pads, etc???

Might as well make them take off their helmets at bat as well... since he might have something hidden in there as well to help see the ball better. :rolleyes:


I'll give you an example...

In the game of bowling, you can wear a wrist strap to help you keep your hand aligned with you arm. This still doesn't guarantee that you'll roll a strike every time. The PBA doesn't disallow professional bowlers to wear them so it's a choice thing.

Now... that being said, if this elbow brace/guard is SOOOOO helpful to batters, then why don't more people wear them at bat? It's not illegal is it? Lets let others wear the device and see if their slugging percentage goes up.... :shrug:

[Markel]

So what's next?

Prevent players from wearing knee braces, shin guards, knee pads, etc???

Might as well make them take off their helmets at bat as well... since he might have something hidden in there as well to help see the ball better. :rolleyes:
So, are you saying that it should be allowed for a player to wear a performance-enhancing "exoskeleton"? If Bonds is indeed using a device that is more than protecting his elbow, I think it should be banned just as much as a corked bat (and not just because it is Bonds wearing it).

[DarkFury]

So, are you saying that it should be allowed for a player to wear a performance-enhancing "exoskeleton"? If Bonds is indeed using a device that is more than protecting his elbow, I think it should be banned just as much as a corked bat (and not just because it is Bonds wearing it).
An elbow guard is not an "exo skeleton"...

It doesn't have any swinging servos or muscle stimulators in it to improve perfomance.

Do you want the man to bat without batting gloves as well?

Honestly, this line of investigation is downright ludicrous. People are just lookin' for sticks and fuel to add to the burning fire.

More or less, you are taking the word of a journalist to say that this device is "performance improving". What does MLB have to say about it? Are they considering making it illegal? If so, then ok... but if not, then I don't understand the gripe.

Like I said earlier, if it is legal then it is open for others to use if they see a benefit. Corked bats are deemed illegal (just like you can't play MLB with an aluminum bat). The bat as a device has to conform to various measures before it is allowed onto the MLB field... so this is to totally different scenario.

[Markel]

An elbow guard is not an "exo skeleton"...

It doesn't have any swinging servos or muscle stimulators in it to improve perfomance.

Do you want the man to bat without batting gloves as well?

Honestly, this line of investigation is downright ludicrous. People are just lookin' for sticks and fuel to add to the burning fire.
I didn't say "an elbow guard". If a player (Bonds or anybody else) is wearing an "elbow guard" that contains mechanics designed to enhance his performance, I think it should be just as illegal as having a bat that has been modified to provide enhancement (unless the "mechanics" are purely to guard against injury, such as in the case of a knee brace).

[DarkFury]

I didn't say "an elbow guard". If a player (Bonds or anybody else) is wearing an "elbow guard" that contains mechanics designed to enhance his performance, I think it should be just as illegal as having a bat that has been modified to provide enhancement (unless the "mechanics" are purely to guard against injury, such as in the case of a knee brace).
But that is what this debate is about... an elbow guard.

The device in question is that, so what is your point again? The mechanics of the device are most likely there to protect the elbow... yet the writer of that article has inferred that there is a "side benefit" of the "muscle memory" potential of the device.

What makes that "illegal"?


Show me in the MLB rules where this device has been deemed illegal. Until then, the argument presented by the writer has no basis.

Maybe he should try getting hit by a 90MPH fastball to the elbow. I bet he'd change his tune fast. :heh:

BTW.. this device probably works just like the mechanical knee braces. Yet the NBA still allows players who need that device to play to still use them as well (and if it improves their jump shot, then so be it. :D )