An apologetic Sony delays its PlayStation 3 to November

[Itsme]

An apologetic Sony delays its PlayStation 3 to November
By Martin Fackler The New York Times

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 15, 2006

TOKYO Sony said Wednesday that it would postpone release of its next-generation PlayStation video game console until November, a potentially costly decision that the company called a marketing move but that analysts said might reflect difficulty in containing high component prices.

The delay of the new console, PlayStation 3, is an apparent setback to Sony's turnaround efforts at a time the struggling electronics giant badly needs a new hit. The formerly highflying electronics maker has fallen on hard times as competition from China has eroded earnings on bread-and-butter consumer electronic products like televisions.

Ken Kutaragi, president of Sony's game unit, apologized before a hastily called meeting of game software developers, analysts and reporters for failing to have the console ready this spring as originally promised. He cast the delay as largely a strategic move to give developers time to write game software and to make a splash during the year- end holiday shopping rush.

Kutaragi said Sony would be ready to produce a million consoles a month by November and planned to make six million machines by March 2007.

"Instead of rushing, we want to have a solid launch," Kutaragi said. "We wanted to have time to make the big sales season that starts with Thanksgiving."

But analysts said the delay would be costly for Sony. It means PlayStation 3 will not reach the market until nearly a full year after Microsoft released its competing machine, xBox 360. Sony has also been counting on PlayStation 3 to serve as a showcase for two new technologies upon which the company is betting its future: the Blu-ray DVD format and the powerful Cell processing chip, co-developed with IBM and Toshiba.

Sony is particularly eager to build up market momentum for the Blu-ray format, which is locked in a battle with a technology from Toshiba to become the global standard for next-generation DVDs. Sony has hoped that installing Blu-ray drives into PlayStation 3s would help popularize the format. Victory could mean billions of dollars in sales and royalty payments.

Sony is also betting on these new technologies to make PlayStation 3 a success. With Blu-ray offering five times more memory capacity than current DVDs, and the Cell chip processing speeds dozens of times those of its predecessor, PlayStation 3 promises a leap in graphics and realism that Sony hopes will dazzle consumers.

On Wednesday, Kutaragi cited delays in developing copyright protection technology for the Blu-ray disc drive as a factor in PlayStation 3's delay. But he said this and other technical problems would be resolved by June. He said Sony could have launched PlayStation 3 earlier had it chosen to do so.

"We were discussing selling it in September, and some even said put it out in July," Kutaragi said.

However, some analysts were immediately skeptical, saying Sony needed to get the console out as soon as possible to combat Microsoft's head start, and the expected release this year of Nintendo's next game console, Revolution.

They said Sony may be trying to buy time to bring down the production cost of key components like the Blu-ray drive and the Cell chip. While Kutaragi did not reveal a price on Wednesday, analysts say Sony would likely try to sell PlayStation 3 for about $500. While that is far higher than the $299 initial price of its predecessor, PlayStation 2, six years ago, analysts said it probably would be well below the new console's actual building cost.

"Sony faces the prospect of swallowing several hundred dollars in losses per machine until production volumes get high enough to drive down costs," said John Yang, an electronics analyst in Tokyo for Standard & Poor's rating agency.

One point upon which Kutaragi and analysts seemed to agree was the need to ensure a smooth roll out for PlayStation 3.

Sony desperately needs the new console to replicate the smashing success of PlayStation 2, which sold more than 100 million units in six years. Game consoles and related software have been Sony's most profitable products, contributing as much as two-thirds of operating income in recent years.

TOKYO Sony said Wednesday that it would postpone release of its next-generation PlayStation video game console until November, a potentially costly decision that the company called a marketing move but that analysts said might reflect difficulty in containing high component prices.

The delay of the new console, PlayStation 3, is an apparent setback to Sony's turnaround efforts at a time the struggling electronics giant badly needs a new hit. The formerly highflying electronics maker has fallen on hard times as competition from China has eroded earnings on bread-and-butter consumer electronic products like televisions.

Ken Kutaragi, president of Sony's game unit, apologized before a hastily called meeting of game software developers, analysts and reporters for failing to have the console ready this spring as originally promised. He cast the delay as largely a strategic move to give developers time to write game software and to make a splash during the year- end holiday shopping rush.

Kutaragi said Sony would be ready to produce a million consoles a month by November and planned to make six million machines by March 2007.

"Instead of rushing, we want to have a solid launch," Kutaragi said. "We wanted to have time to make the big sales season that starts with Thanksgiving."

But analysts said the delay would be costly for Sony. It means PlayStation 3 will not reach the market until nearly a full year after Microsoft released its competing machine, xBox 360. Sony has also been counting on PlayStation 3 to serve as a showcase for two new technologies upon which the company is betting its future: the Blu-ray DVD format and the powerful Cell processing chip, co-developed with IBM and Toshiba.

Sony is particularly eager to build up market momentum for the Blu-ray format, which is locked in a battle with a technology from Toshiba to become the global standard for next-generation DVDs. Sony has hoped that installing Blu-ray drives into PlayStation 3s would help popularize the format. Victory could mean billions of dollars in sales and royalty payments.

Sony is also betting on these new technologies to make PlayStation 3 a success. With Blu-ray offering five times more memory capacity than current DVDs, and the Cell chip processing speeds dozens of times those of its predecessor, PlayStation 3 promises a leap in graphics and realism that Sony hopes will dazzle consumers.

On Wednesday, Kutaragi cited delays in developing copyright protection technology for the Blu-ray disc drive as a factor in PlayStation 3's delay. But he said this and other technical problems would be resolved by June. He said Sony could have launched PlayStation 3 earlier had it chosen to do so.

"We were discussing selling it in September, and some even said put it out in July," Kutaragi said.

However, some analysts were immediately skeptical, saying Sony needed to get the console out as soon as possible to combat Microsoft's head start, and the expected release this year of Nintendo's next game console, Revolution.

They said Sony may be trying to buy time to bring down the production cost of key components like the Blu-ray drive and the Cell chip. While Kutaragi did not reveal a price on Wednesday, analysts say Sony would likely try to sell PlayStation 3 for about $500. While that is far higher than the $299 initial price of its predecessor, PlayStation 2, six years ago, analysts said it probably would be well below the new console's actual building cost.

"Sony faces the prospect of swallowing several hundred dollars in losses per machine until production volumes get high enough to drive down costs," said John Yang, an electronics analyst in Tokyo for Standard & Poor's rating agency.

One point upon which Kutaragi and analysts seemed to agree was the need to ensure a smooth roll out for PlayStation 3.

Sony desperately needs the new console to replicate the smashing success of PlayStation 2, which sold more than 100 million units in six years. Game consoles and related software have been Sony's most profitable products, contributing as much as two-thirds of operating income in recent years.

[zero2dash]

Worldwide launch in November (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/696/696054p1.html)

March 14, 2006 - Ken Kutaragi, PlayStation Master and keeper of big news has announced at the PS meeting today that the PlayStation 3 will be launching in early November worldwide for the North American, Asian, and European territories.


"A completely simultaneous launch is physically impossible," Kutaragi said, "but we believe we'll be able ship to users throughout the world around this time."

Sony's production line is set to pump out one million units per month to meet demand, with a total of six million units to be produced in Fiscal Year 2006 (through March 2007) alone. Production numbers are higher for PS1 and PS2 in their initial years.

I guarantee you this means horrible shortages. Equally divided, that's 333,000 consoles per territory and there's going to be more than that in each that wants to pay the high price for the system. This could (potentially) make the Xbox 360 launch look like a cakewalk.

Hello, Revolution. :)

60GB HD required - running Linux (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/696/696056p1.html)

March 14, 2006 - As part of the PlayStation Business Brief today in Tokyo, Ken Kutaragi confirmed that the PlayStation 3 will require a hard drive peripheral for games. Developers are being told to create games with the assumption that a hard disk will be present.

"The hardware was developed with the hard disk in mind," Kutaragi said.

Earlier, we mistakenly reported that Sony would including the hard disk with the PS3 right out of the box. Kutaragi actually stopped short of confirming this, leaving it as an area of speculation for now. He did state that Sony hopes to avoid a situation where some systems have the drive and others don't (Kutaragi didn't mention Xbox 360, but he was probably thinking it).

Despite this slide shown today at the PS Business Briefing,
Sony left a few questions open about its hard disk plans

SCE is telling developers that they can expect a 60GB hard disk which is upgradeable, and support Linux OS. Additionally, the peripheral will act as a home server.

Well they certainly learned from the huge mistake that Microsoft made this time around; sounds like everyone gets a HD. :bow: Smart. (No confirmation but obviously they think it'll happen.)

Ps3 is "Live" (online details revealed) (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/696/696059p1.html)

March 14, 2006 - Sony today finally unveiled info on its PlayStation 3 online plans at its PlayStation Business Briefing currently happening in Japan.

Beginning at the system's launch, currently scheduled for sometime this November, the system will feature community tools including lobby matching and voice chat, commerce features that includes bootable software via the hard drive and more.

The service was created with the help of Sony Online Entertainment. Best of all, the "basic" service will be free of charge.

Stay tuned as more is sure to turn up very, very soon.

Sounds like they're going with a 2-tiered online experience like Microsoft with Live Silver/Gold, but who knows...a lot of rumors have been going around that Sony will have completely free online gaming (just like they did with the Ps2) and that will be one of the console's selling points/reasons to say it's better than the 360. Who knows. :shrug:

Lots of other links to the announcements can be found on both of those pages...I think those are the biggest though.

I'm still waiting on price before getting my 'panties in a bunch'. All these specs are neat, but, what's the bottom line, people? How many mortgages will it cost...? :D

[shocky123]

/edit: article I'm referncing: http://www.joystiq.com/2006/03/15/ps3-press-conference-it-begins/


Meh, Other articles I've read are stating that whats his name @ sony stated that DRM issues are causing the main delays.

Sony has always had free online gaming. Which blows the crap outta the Xbox in my books.
Linux compatibility is also a major plus.

and I believe I read $427.607 as a min. price
which means retail I'd imagine to be around $499.99 or $599.99 if the BestBuys and etc. totally want to f**k us all.


microsoft never released anything about timelines for production.. I believe if someone looked it up, they'd find that M$ has grossly underproduced any 1million/month marks..

my thoughts,
~Kyle

[zero2dash]

I'm still holding out hope that Sony releases it for $299 and shocks the hell out of everyone...and it makes total sense. They've been psyching everyone out (including when Kutaragi said something about "needing a 2nd job to afford one")...they raise the bar and everyone thinks the system will be like $500+ dollars and then they drop the $299 price bomb and everyone goes "holy crap I've gotta get one". :)

If Sony releases it with a HD for the same price as a 360 Core ($299) - Microsoft's in deep trouble.

[ProMinx]

Microsoft won't be in deep trouble either way. Both systems have their fanboys, and will unquestionably survive. I guess you and I just sit in opposite camps.

I cannot imagine any scenario in which Sony could drop a 299 price tag. "Hey everyone...look. We delayed until November to allow component prices to drop so that a $500-700 end-user pricetag won't completely bankrupt us, but we decided we'll take a $400-600 hit on each unit anyway. We're smart. PS - We're now bankrupt." (This is when they start a http://www.savesony.com and ask PS3 fanboys for donations so that they don't have to kill and eat the PS3 that they worked so hard to save. If you don't understand this reference...just ask.)

Some of the other announcements yesterday were ridiculous. Telling developers to expect consumers to have a 60 GB hard drive, but refusing to confirm that the hard drive will be included. Makes no sense to me. And why would Sony require all PS3 games to come out on Blu-Ray? Increased storage - unlikely. Copy protection - maybe. Huge royalties on every game sold - we have a winner.

And shocky - Microsoft is predicted to exceed its goal for total unit sales through (I forget which month) by 1/2 - 1 million units. MS has sold somewhere in the range of 4.5-5 million units since November 22 (just under 4 months), but only about 700k were available at launch (330k to the US and 360k to europe and japan). That sounds to me as if Microsoft has averaged about a million units per month (which means their current production is likely well in excess of 1,000,000/month), but MS could have had some of those units partially complete before launch, so I can't be certain.



Warning: If any of this post seems bitchy, overly technical, or the numbers I have are incorrect - I am sorry. I'm sitting at work with a stack of really long boring AUDI navigation system patents in front of me, and that always makes me zone out and kind of pissy. Second...all of my statistics are speculation. I remember reading the 330k and 360k launch figures months ago and seeing an article a few weeks back that Microsoft has already sold 4.5 million and is likely to exceed their predictions for the near future. I'm using other people's (mostly industry analysts; none officially from Microsoft) numbers.

[Bires]

"Instead of rushing, we want to have a solid launch," Kutaragi said. "We wanted to have time to make the big sales season that starts with Thanksgiving."

GOOD!

The less ebay nutery, the better.

Until then, the PS2 still has piles of great titles coming out. Kingdom Hearts2 is coming out in two weeks, and Final Fantasy 12 is coming out this fall (on the PS2). :thumb:

Also, if the PS2 has blue-ray, all the better, because I don't think any of us are going to buy a BR-DVD or HD-DVD set until next spring anyway.

[mcs328]

I also hear it will play all ps1 and ps2 games.

[InfiniteNothing]

depending on the price of bluray players at the time, I might buy a PS3 for the bluray capability alone. I of course will be buying a Revolution as well.

[Grubbie]

Sony has always had free online gaming. Which blows the crap outta the Xbox in my books.
~Kyle

How has Sony had better online console gaming the MS and Xbox Live?

If Sony's previous online gaming was better then Xbox Live, why is Sony releasing a copycat online service?

[shocky123]

In my books...
FREE = better
always

If Sony's online stuff is going to be free, it in no way copies Xbox Live, or any other pay-to-play service, as the mindset between the two (free and not free) are completely different.

There isnt any 'copycat' stuff going on. If we seriously want to try to label Sony as copying M$'s online stuff.. we might as well complain that M$ is copying whomever first came up with the protocols the networks are using..

~Kyle

[Bires]

In my books...
FREE = better
always


:stupid:

Unfortunately, the SCEA has leaked that the PS3 online will be a monthly service charge, ala XBL.

[Grubbie]

:stupid:

Unfortunately, the SCEA has leaked that the PS3 online will be a monthly service charge, ala XBL.


Yup Sony will have a "Free" version just like the Xbox Live Silver account with the 360. Sony isn't doing anything new with their online service, they are coming late to the online party and trying to copy the Xbox Live system.


In my books...
There isnt any 'copycat' stuff going on. If we seriously want to try to label Sony as copying M$'s online stuff.. we might as well complain that M$ is copying whomever first came up with the protocols the networks are using..

~Kyle

If you look at there online plan for Sony HUB(or whatever it is called) it is going to be JUST like Microsofts Xbox Live 360. It isn't a bad thing that they are copying a lot of it, but they aren't going to be able to pull off an online experience the way Xbox Live does. The problem for Sony is that Microsoft has had Xbox Live up and running and time to improve and work on it. Sony has to launch a service from day one that is better then a service that has been proven and been around.

[shocky123]

I think we're not giving Sony enough credit here.. They're not completely new to this industry. But that's besides the point. Time for fanboyism:

"I know I will buy a PS3 for whatever price it ends up being because the console itself IMO is a better system, I wouldnt buy it based on it's online capabilities - they're nice.. but certainly not going to make me buy one console over the other." <----Fanboyism

Now, agreed, much of the 'online stuff' may be getting copied, but that just makes sense. If M$ didnt get a chance to get money off it then, they missed out on Copyrights, and I blame M$ for leaving the door open for competitors. Laws do prevent a specific amount of copied code from being used/sold under other names. And from a software developers standpoint, you always re-use code when its available :)


~Kyle

[Thesifer]

Yeah. Exactly Sony has been around a long time. And in desperate Money Troubles.. They have screwed up launches completely before, especially trying to get people to use Beta Max.
My prediction is that HD-DVD will overtake Blu-Ray before they can get the PS3 out (of which they are betting on to push the Blu-Ray into widespread use.)

Slowly, this is the downfall of Sony Electronics.

[ProMinx]

I highly doubt that Microsoft has failed to protect its intellectual property, but this is not an issue that would really be covered by copyright. Copyright only covers exact copies of substantial pieces of code, which just wouldn't happen in this kind of situation (largely because you're writing code for completely different system architectures). Copyright also covers the visual presentation of XBox live and the XBox 360, so if PS3 or the Nintendo Revolution roll out with remarkably similar dashboards or "blades" to the 360 dashboard...there will be law suits.

Another fundamental problem with your statement about MS not protecting their intellectual property. Unlike patent law, a copyright does not need to be registered until immediately before a lawsuit is initiated. I could have written a book 12 years ago and done nothing to secure my copyright from the library of congress, and then seen a substantially similar book in a library today. I could then register my work with the library of congress, request my copyright grant, and sue you tomorrow.

Back to protection of the XBox live format - this is the kind of situation that would require a patent more than a copyright. A patent would cover far more general situations than the specific code covered by a copyright or registered trade secret, and it is through this wide net that Microsoft will likely catch whatever online protocols Sony and Nintendo attempt. And if you question Microsoft's dedication to their intellectual property...just about 2 weeks ago, they were granted their 5000th (yes, five thousandth) patent. That is a HUGE number for a company only 25 years old, considering there have only been about 6.8 million patents granted since the days that Thomas Jefferson was the first examiner for the Patent and Trademark office in the 1700s... not to mention that it typically costs around 20 grand in fees to secure a technology based patent...and roughly double that in lawyer's fees.

Yeah...sorry for so much info on the intellectual property scheme of the U.S...but this is what I do. Patents all day. Poker all night.

[shocky123]

Good info, thanks! :)

..just to clarify, I wasnt trying to say that MS hadnt secured their intellectual property properly, I was merely stating that it would be difficult for Sony to 'copy' XBLive in the sense that everyone else is thinking 'copy' simply because of copyright/patent laws that I'm sure MS owns for the XBLive stuff.

~Kyle

[zero2dash]

I don't really think Sony's in much of a predicament myself. :shrug:

-Most of the potential Ps3 buyers are buying one primarily as a game console, so, all the extra bells and whistles are an afterthought.
-Sony has the strongest third party support no matter what market we're talking about (US, UK, Japan)
-A large majority of gamers grew up during the Playstation era and therefore the word "Playstation" is a marketing juggernaut

As for Sony copying "Live" or what not - let's get real here - what company doesn't steal ideas from another company when they're a proven, working formula??? There wouldn't even be analog sticks or shoulder buttons on controllers nowadays if Nintendo hadn't have done it first. How many ideas has Microsoft stolen and thrown into Windows that Apple put in System 7 first? etc etc you get the idea.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that I think Sony's unstoppable or that Microsoft and Nintendo have nothing to offer; quite the contrary. Microsoft already has a good userbase of 360 owners, and we're starting to see games that take advantage of the power of the hardware (like GRAW, which looks incredible)...plus, by the time the Ps3 launches, 360 developers should be running at near full stride since they'll have had over a year under their belt with the dev kits - and meanwhile in Sony's camp, they'll be struggling for at least the first year with developing so the graphics won't be too good off the bat. And in Nintendo's camp (which is where my proverbial 'tent' is), you've got the advantages of the cheapest price, new experiences with the controller (or "Revmote" as some haters are calling it), and also quite a lot of buzz and interest in the industry since they're offering things we've never seen before. And - being able to download games from every previous Nintendo home console, legally, and have them all in one place? Where do I sign up? :deal:

I can't wait to get a Revolution...and sometime, I'll pick up either a 360 or a Ps3. :)

[ProMinx]

But they're going to charge you to download those previous Nintendo game. Who wants to pay for the same game twice? Don't forget that you won't have every Nintendo game available for download immediately; the games will be slowly released a few a week, so don't expect to play your favorite not-incredibly-popular NES game anytime this decade. Worse still...Nintendo doesn't own the rights to a ton of games that were released on their systems. Don't forget that Microsoft now owns the rights to a LOT of beloved N64 games (banjo kazooie, the donkey kongs, Golden Eye, Perfect Dark...), and I cannot see MS ever coming to an agreement with Nintendo to allow Nintendo to distribute those games. Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see MS and Sony wooing the hell out of Capcom, Konami, and SNK to try and receive exclusive licenses...just to make fewer downloadable games for the Revolution. Granted, both Sony and MS have stated that they no longer consider Nintendo a competitor (kind of like you don't expect tommy, the kid who has to wear a bike helmet to class, to provide any competition in a foot race around the school yard), but I doubt they'll skip the oportunity to turn the knife in Nintendo's side

Moving back to the DLable backward compatability, this is the same reason I'm unhappy that Microsoft is going to start releasing downloadable versions original XBox games over the summer - starting with the original Halo. Who that owns a 360 didn't already have an XBox...and who that owned an XBox didn't own Halo? Didn't that game have the highest console attachment ratio ever? I don't want to have to pay to download the same game again just to get achievements and xbox live multiplayer. I wish that MS would just switch those people who are working on the DLable games over to making the system backward compatible with more xbox game disks.

[zero2dash]

But they're going to charge you to download those previous Nintendo game. Who wants to pay for the same game twice? Don't forget that you won't have every Nintendo game available for download immediately; the games will be slowly released a few a week, so don't expect to play your favorite not-incredibly-popular NES game anytime this decade.

I refer you back to several months ago when Miyamoto said "there are still things about the Revolution that no one knows yet", and even Reggie (Fils-Aime) has said secrets will be revealed throughout this year as the build to launch approaches. Who's to say that they won't come out and say "free downloads for everyone"? Who's to say what the price will be? You telling me that you wouldn't pay a quarter for an NES game? I would because then I could say I LEGALLY have it on a hard drive.

There's also the chance that they could say "$5 a month, download as much as you want" and I'd be all there. As for the frequency of releases - who knows. We won't know until at least E3 if not later...but I don't think we're looking at a "10 games a month" release trickle; I'd think we'd have at least a good hundred at a time.


Worse still...Nintendo doesn't own the rights to a ton of games that were released on their systems. Don't forget that Microsoft now owns the rights to a LOT of beloved N64 games (banjo kazooie, the donkey kongs, Golden Eye, Perfect Dark...), and I cannot see MS ever coming to an agreement with Nintendo to allow Nintendo to distribute those games.

Donkey Kong is a Nintendo property...always has been, always will be. Rare made the DKC series (Donkey Kong Country) but Nintendo owns the rights to the character and all associations of Donkey Kong. Miyamoto created him...not Rare/Rareware. (Hence why there are 2 DK Jungle Beat bongo games on the Gamecube.)

And reports say that Rare is working on GBA games (I remember a rumor of a Banjo game but can't find a link to that one). I did find this though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_(video_game_company)#Company_overview (scroll to the bottom of the section)

However, on July 8, 2005, Rare posted job openings for Nintendo DS development on its official website, and stated that it was "creating key DS titles." The news was reported by The Advanced Media Network, who turned out to be right all along. [2] It is not known who will publish those titles, however.

As for the other games - nothing's impossible. Banjo-Kazooie may have been a Nintendo-created character (it's reportedly a spinoff of DKC but the Wikipedia info on BK doesn't mention who actually came up with the character) but may not be. Including BK, all of the other Rare N64 titles were developed by Rare and published by Nintendo, so saying that just because Rare developed them doesn't mean we won't ever see them since there's a possible contract option on Nintendo's part to publish the games whenever they want. Again, only the "people in the know" know.


Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see MS and Sony wooing the hell out of Capcom, Konami, and SNK to try and receive exclusive licenses...just to make fewer downloadable games for the Revolution.

Capcom doesn't do "exclusive" licenses these days. Konami's (practically) in Sony's back pocket with anything they do now, but nothing from past systems is really being held exclusive. Sony used to think Castlevania would stay exclusive to their systems, and then we had (at least) 2 Castlevania 64 titles and several on the Saturn in Japan, and then they said the newest Castlevania 3d Ps2 title would be exclusive and they ended up releasing it for the Xbox also. SNK - there isn't much that SNK released for the Nintendo or the SNES, really, and the state of their company nowadays (as SNK Playmore), I don't think they'll try to get an "exclusive" card anywhere either.

I don't think you're realizing the fact that this is money in the bank for these companies on games that have been sitting on proverbial shelves somewhere since the late 80's...an opportunity to make money on those old titles again and they're going to pass it up? I don't think so. :)


Granted, both Sony and MS have stated that they no longer consider Nintendo a competitor (kind of like you don't expect tommy, the kid who has to wear a bike helmet to class, to provide any competition in a foot race around the school yard), but I doubt they'll skip the oportunity to turn the knife in Nintendo's side

And they're both incredibly stupid.
Sony said Nintendo wasn't a competitor to the PSP.
Look who's won that argument so far (and with a large, LARGE resounding win at that). :stupid: ...Nintendo has. As for Microsoft - they don't really care about Nintendo because a) they're not trying to sell portables and b) their biggest competition is Sony.

You're failing to see the big picture here man...
Nintendo is the perfect prime example of a dark horse with nothing to lose that could EASILY take over the top spot and surprise everyone and do it very *very* easily. They will have the lowest price point in the industry on a new system, they have (practically) the entire Asian gaming continent in their back pocket, and they are the only company who truly offer anything that we haven't already seen for the last 20 years.


Moving back to the DLable backward compatability, this is the same reason I'm unhappy that Microsoft is going to start releasing downloadable versions original XBox games over the summer - starting with the original Halo. Who that owns a 360 didn't already have an XBox...and who that owned an XBox didn't own Halo? Didn't that game have the highest console attachment ratio ever? I don't want to have to pay to download the same game again just to get achievements and xbox live multiplayer. I wish that MS would just switch those people who are working on the DLable games over to making the system backward compatible with more xbox game disks.

I agree with you about more compatibility on the backwards compatibility, but Microsoft is suffering from the same syndrome that Sony is; they think that damn near everyone in the living world has broadband and that's a crock of sheist...whether anyone likes to admit it or not, there are a lot of countries and a lot of areas that do not have broadband access still, and won't for the foreseeable future. On top of that, wouldn't people rather have a physical piece of software they can look and touch and take outside of their house without having to lug and entire system to play at a friend's house? I think so. :shifty:

[ProMinx]

Lets start with the simplest argument I have. The Nintendo Revolution games will not be released for free, and they will not be released on a subscription basis. Don't you remember about 2 months back when the proposed screens for the Nintendo Revolution dashboard were leaked...and each game on those screens had a number by the title? That does a pretty good job of verifying Nintendo's intended distribution method. They're going to charge for each game unless they massively overhaul the system. While it is possible that a large number of NES games could be released rapidly because the physical architecture and coding was so simple, but N64 games and GameCube games will take significantly longer to round up and release.

While I understand that the Donkey Kong character was created by Nintendo, they did not develop CK Country, and game developers rarely (no pun intended) give up absolute control to their copyrights, even to their publishers. If Rare still holds any portion of the the copyrights on donkey kong country, it does not matter who created the characters. There would be no way for Nintendo to legally distribute the game without Rare's (Microsoft's) express permission (while Donkey Kong country is itself a derivative work, it is a derivative work created with express permission...so the new work is afforded the same copyright protection as would an original work).



Nintendo is the perfect prime example of a dark horse with nothing to lose that could EASILY take over the top spot and surprise everyone and do it very *very* easily. They will have the lowest price point in the industry on a new system, they have (practically) the entire Asian gaming continent in their back pocket, and they are the only company who truly offer anything that we haven't already seen for the last 20 years.

I also have to disagree vehemently with your analysis that Nintendo has any shot at all to regain a respectable marketshare of home consoles. Swinging a controller around isn't new...and in the past...it hasn't been fun. The only revolutions so far revealed in the new system are Nintendo's willingness to ignore trends in modern video gaming. This is the company that dictated to gamers that gamers didn't want multiplayer games. How did that game play out?



As for Microsoft - they don't really care about Nintendo because a) they're not trying to sell portables and b) their biggest competition is Sony.


I'll let someone else respond to this one: In a bid to capture the huge audience for handheld entertainment gadgets, Microsoft is designing a product that combines video games, music and video in one handheld device, according to sources familiar with the project. (http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2006/03/microsofts_plan.html)

I sit firmly in Microsoft's camp, and in my opinion the have already won the next generation console war...but really...Nintendo isn't trying to compete in the next generation. They're trying to be gimmicky instead of admitting they can't keep up in terms of graphics or game complexity. And I still think that the Revolution controller looks like a TERRIBLE idea (and probably infringes a patent that microsoft was granted a few months back anyway - though I cannot recall the patent number or where i originally came across that patent analysis). Anyway...best of luck in the home console market. God knows that Microsoft will need the same luck to compete in the world of portables.

[zero2dash]

Lets start with the simplest argument I have. The Nintendo Revolution games will not be released for free, and they will not be released on a subscription basis. Don't you remember about 2 months back when the proposed screens for the Nintendo Revolution dashboard were leaked...and each game on those screens had a number by the title? That does a pretty good job of verifying Nintendo's intended distribution method.

You're basing that off a Photoshop job done by a fanboy? Gimme a break man; I thought you were a little more selective in believing real news over fake. :rolleyes: There's about 15 "proposed" Revo interface screens on Joystiq alone.




They're going to charge for each game unless they massively overhaul the system. While it is possible that a large number of NES games could be released rapidly because the physical architecture and coding was so simple, but N64 games and GameCube games will take significantly longer to round up and release.

See above re: your "pricing".
As for N64 games taking any time - are you serious?
How quick were the Zelda bonus disks (both the OoT/OoT Master and the Zelda 4-in-1) were released very quickly on the Gamecube, and those both contain N64 titles as well as NES titles. Then they released Zelda: 4 Swords on the Gamecube as well, which is bonafide SNES architecture (stolen from Link to the Past). Therefore, let's see...all three systems (NES, SNES, N64) which are 8+ years old apiece had games ported from them *to* the Gamecube in a matter of months; meanwhile, the Revo is based off Gamecube architecture (with roughly 3x a graphical boost) and you think these games will take eons to be ported? :heh:

As for Gamecube games, dude - the system supports them out of the box; this isn't a "download a patch to work with a new graphics chipset" joke that Microsoft's dealing with (360).




While I understand that the Donkey Kong character was created by Nintendo, they did not develop CK Country, and game developers rarely (no pun intended) give up absolute control to their copyrights, even to their publishers. If Rare still holds any portion of the the copyrights on donkey kong country, it does not matter who created the characters. There would be no way for Nintendo to legally distribute the game without Rare's (Microsoft's) express permission (while Donkey Kong country is itself a derivative work, it is a derivative work created with express permission...so the new work is afforded the same copyright protection as would an original work).

(I forgot earlier to mention that) DKC was released for the GBA. Therefore - Rare doesn't really own any rights to block it from being released on other Nintendo systems after all. :)




I also have to disagree vehemently with your analysis that Nintendo has any shot at all to regain a respectable marketshare of home consoles. Swinging a controller around isn't new...and in the past...it hasn't been fun. The only revolutions so far revealed in the new system are Nintendo's willingness to ignore trends in modern video gaming. This is the company that dictated to gamers that gamers didn't want multiplayer games. How did that game play out?

Swinging a controller? LOL :heh:
Obviously you don't know how a Revo controller works so I'll just quit while I'm ahead in talking to you about the features of the system.

Ignoring trends...umm, based off what?
The Gamecube supports both online play and hi def.
What other trends that Microsoft and Sony toot about are out there? DVD support? Guess you've never seen a Q.

Multiplayer games and Nintendo giving up? Well, now your age is starting to show. Maybe you've forgotten that the SNES was the first console that had more than 2player multiplayer. Nintendo is responsible for some of the best multiplayer games in the world, man...hell, YOU mentioned TWO of them (Goldeneye/Perfect Dark). Dare we forget about Mario Kart? Everything that you play now that is multiplayer owes a lot to what Nintendo has done in the past.


I sit firmly in Microsoft's camp, and in my opinion the have already won the next generation console war...but really...Nintendo isn't trying to compete in the next generation. They're trying to be gimmicky instead of admitting they can't keep up in terms of graphics or game complexity. And I still think that the Revolution controller looks like a TERRIBLE idea (and probably infringes a patent that microsoft was granted a few months back anyway - though I cannot recall the patent number or where i originally came across that patent analysis). Anyway...best of luck in the home console market. God knows that Microsoft will need the same luck to compete in the world of portables.

You think Microsoft's already won...why...because they were the first out of the gate? Dude, you haven't been playing games a long time, have you. Maybe I should remind you that both the Saturn and the Dreamcast were both released before their competition and we know what happened to both systems. (Damn shame...if Saturn had half of the Japanese support, the 2d fighters alone available in Japan would've sold a lot of systems, and the Dreamcast never got a fair shake because everyone had Playstation 2 in theirmind.) 360 is first out of the gate meaning everyone else (namely Sony) can adjust their specs as accordingly and make their system offer more. Now all they need to do is have a decent (read: acceptable to the buying public) price and Microsoft is up a creek without a paddle (or a river) to move them along.

And you're right...Nintendo's not in "the war". Nintendo said a long time ago that they're not going to be fighting in the bloody waters amongst the 'sharks', they're sailing to the open blue ocean to have their own little niche. In case you forgot - Nintendo doesn't need a home console to "win" any hardware races because - that race is already over with. They've already sold more portables + made more money off those portables than Microsoft ever will with the 360s and Sony ever will with the Ps3. If you are happy with having a sequel system and buying into the EA Sports/Tony Hawk "release a game every six months with nothing changed" mindset, then - go ahead and waste your money. I'm 28 years old dude - I've played games since the 2600/Colecovision days and graphics don't cut it anymore for me...I've seen enough and done enough with graphics and flash over my time that I don't bat an eye anymore at Final Fantasy CG and 'hardware T&L' that the only thing that matters when you get done with all the visual flair is "how well did the game control?" "are the characters likeable?" "do the camera angles suck"? "is this fun?"

Well...I hope you enjoy your 360...but I'm also not afraid to admit that if you think Microsoft's already won...you're in a form of denial that I've never seen before (especially considering that you haven't seen any final hardware or any games from the 360s competition).

Ah well we're veering wholly off topic so, later...

[ProMinx]

I'm sorry, but I meant to say online multiplayer (you know...that thing that Nintendo has since added into even the Gameboy?). Check IGN's list of memorable quotes that theyposted last week: Top 10 Tuesday (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/695/695787p1.html).

Of 10 quotes, you have 4 from Nintendo, 1 from Microsoft, and 1 from Sony. I'll condense the relevant quotes here.

10: Microsoft: The XBox 360 is a gateway to the zen of gaming (with some random babbling thrown in).
8: Nintendo: Customers do not want online games. (this comment was made in 2004!)
7: Nintendo: Buying up development studios will never work for MS. XBox will fail because we'll release a game system one year later that will crush the XBox.
6A: Sony: The PS2 is like the matrix - same interface - same concept. Starting next year, you can jack into the matrix (this from a system that didn't have any form of modem for years).
(and they slipped in a second comment that should be separately listed on the top 10 most retarded comments in the video game industry, but they trimmed it into one somehow)
6B: Sony: The PS3 is going to be so unbelievably expensive that we can't market it for home use. (This is from the same man who said people would have to get second jobs to afford the system)
4: Nintendo: RPGs are silly and boring, and RPG players are depressed gamers who sit alone in the dark.
1: Nintendo: Customers are not interested in games with higher quality sounds and graphics and epic stories. People are not interested in cutting-edge gaming machines. Nintendo is in no rush to replace the GameCube. (again this was in 2004, just months before the Revolution was announced.)

So basically the MS and half of the Sony claim were just marketing hype to make people want the system. The other half of Sony's claim was that the PS3 would be shockingly expensive; way to appeal to the consumers, Kutaragi. However all 4 of Nintendo's claims are contrary to the opinions of the overwhelming majority of regular gamers. I just couldn't imagine throwing my support behind a company that regularly ignores trends in gaming desires and tries to dictate foolish terms to an entire industry.

[IrishSS]

Not to try and re-ignite this PM/Z2D argument, but I just had a small revelation here...

Sony announced the PS3 was delayed until November and Nintendo did the same with the Revolution.

Here I am, an XBOX hater, and what do I go and do? I buy a 360 because I am bored as hell with the current state of gaming. I had fully planned to ignore the 360, just as I did the original XBOX, unless something came out exclusively that I just had to have.

Now look... the two systems that I (and I presume many, many others) have been waiting on for quite a while get delayed for at least 7 months? Jebus... way to turn me into an XBOX fanboi with your incompetence.