4 bucks a gallon this summer

[nickel]

i heard an analyst say we shouldn't be surprised to see gas at $4 per gallon this summer. wow...and $3 a gallon was such a shocker.
i have a friend in Amsterdam who gets annoyed when i complain about gasoline prices. since he remembers they have always been high there, and right now one gallon there costs over $7. for this reason he doesn't even have a driver's license and gets around on bike most of the time and public transportation a small amount of the time. this is not uncommon for people in his area.

have you changed your driving habits as gasoline prices have risen? do you think you will when gas hits $4/gal.?


Oil Prices Rise Near $68 a Barrel
By GEORGE JAHN, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 41 minutes ago

VIENNA, Austria - Crude-oil prices rose Monday as market participants fretted over supply threats posed by Iran's nuclear standoff with the international community, violence in Nigeria and shrinking U.S. gasoline inventories.

Persistent chilly weather in parts of the United States also added to bullish sentiment.

Light, sweet crude for May delivery rose 37 cents to $67.76 a barrel in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange by midday in Europe. The contract fell 55 cents to settle at $67.39 a barrel on Friday.

May Brent crude on London's ICE electronic exchange rose 31 cents to $67.60 a barrel.

Gasoline futures rose nearly a penny to $1.9867 a gallon while heating oil was up slightly at $1.8854 a gallon. Natural gas futures fell just over 2 cents to $6.722 per 1,000 cubic feet.

The U.N. Security Council has demanded that Iran suspend its uranium enrichment program. But Iran has so far refused to halt its nuclear activity, saying the small-scale enrichment project is strictly for research and not for development of nuclear weapons.

U.S. administration officials have left open the possibility of a military response if Iran does not end its nuclear ambitions. Several reports published Sunday said the administration was studying options for military strikes.

Washington on Sunday sought to dampen the idea of a U.S. military strike on Iran, saying the United States is conducting "normal defense and intelligence planning" as President George W. Bush seeks a diplomatic solution to Tehran's suspected nuclear weapons program.

Still, oil prices were rising Monday partly in reaction to the possibility of a U.S. military strike on the oil-rich nation, analysts said.

"The traders are looking at the geopolitical risk in Iran. They are worried that if the U.S. attacks Iran at some stage, it would impact crude oil prices in the future, so they don't want to sell," said Tetsu Emori, chief commodities strategist at Mitsui Bussan Futures in Tokyo.

Also pushing prices up were concerns that U.S. refineries would have difficulty meeting peak gasoline demand during the Northern Hemisphere summer, as U.S. government data released last week showed domestic supplies of gasoline shrank by 4.4 million barrels to 211.8 million barrels, even though the stockpile was roughly in line with year-ago levels.

"Traders are worried that U.S. refineries don't have enough capacity for gasoline production ahead of the summer driving season," Emori said.

At the same time, heating oil prices were supported by "continued chilly temperatures in U.S. key consuming regions (that) spurred demand," said Vienna's PVM Oil Associates.

It also noted continued "supply worries in Nigeria, where more than 500,000 barrels a day of upstream capacity remained shut in" following recent militant violence — and the threat of more to come
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060410/ap_on_bi_ge/oil_prices;_ylt=AuUNMQUxz7Q_FOn0ybkdQkus0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3bGI2aDNqBHNlYwM3NDk-

[MikeD]

have you changed your driving habits as gasoline prices have risen? do you think you will when gas hits $4/gal.?

No, I haven't. Then again, I've got a 9 mile commute to work w/very little traffic. I'm not filling up at the pump that often.

I think $4 is not only feasible, but probable as well. It will take more than that ($5?, $6?) to get some real changes rolling, though.

[oblongmelon]

hey Nick..are you planning your summer menu yet? the Renfest will be starting up before you know it..and personally, I'm hoping there are some decent concerts at the Carrier Dome..I promised my little great nephews that when they came in from OHIO this summer I'd take them up to Rosamond Gifford..do you know if they have any baby elephants due this year?

[Paniolo]

Europeans must just be LOL at us......they've experienced over $3 petrol prices for years!!

[nickel]

Europeans must just be LOL at us......they've experienced over $3 petrol prices for years!!
we've been spoiled.

but at least our cars don't run on maple syrup. that's up to $28/gal here this year. :lick:


hey Nick..are you planning your summer menu yet? the Renfest will be starting up before you know it..and personally, I'm hoping there are some decent concerts at the Carrier Dome..I promised my little great nephews that when they came in from OHIO this summer I'd take them up to Rosamond Gifford..do you know if they have any baby elephants due this year?
we're going to hit Canada a couple of times this summer - get in before we need passcards at a proposed $50 per person (plus tax, admin fee, etc... which should bring it up to $75 or something) this Fall.
ever been to Cornwall, Ontario? they have an awesome 4 day hot air balloon fest during July complete with concerts, and other outdoor festivities right on the shores of the Saint Lawrence River.

not sure when i'm doing the RenFest this year, but looking forward to it. :)
elephant babies? i'm not up. :P

[ialsohaveadream]

No, I haven't. Then again, I've got a 9 mile commute to work w/very little traffic. I'm not filling up at the pump that often.
:stupid: I never drove that much anyway.

[johnnymk]

Too many sources are stating that we will be at war with Iran soon, so $4 a gallon oil may be correct. The ripple effect on the economy is going to be devastating: High inflation, higher interest rates, deflating house prices, increasing unemployment...... Just like 1980

I hope this gets settled over there real soon.

[Houdini]

i heard an analyst say we shouldn't be surprised to see gas at $4 per gallon this summer. wow...and $3 a gallon was such a shocker.
i have a friend in Amsterdam who gets annoyed when i complain about gasoline prices. since he remembers they have always been high there, and right now one gallon there costs over $7. for this reason he doesn't even have a driver's license and gets around on bike most of the time and public transportation a small amount of the time. this is not uncommon for people in his area.

have you changed your driving habits as gasoline prices have risen? do you think you will when gas hits $4/gal.?


Yeah, my driving habits have changed. My car only drinks 91+ octane, so I've felt a real $$ difference the past couple of years. Instead of my usual sporty driving style, I've made a conscious effort to accelerate more slowly, coast to red-lights until they turn green, etc.

As far as the Euro stuff, though, many of their cars run on diesel, which is much cheaper there, but more expensive here. Yeah, they can condemn us for polluting so much, but their diesel cars pollute a helluva lot more.

H <----waiting for some Iraqi oil to become available....and our refining capacity to be drastically increased...and for gas formulas to become standard, whether you live in NOLA or Los Angeles, or NY, etc.

[oblongmelon]

we've been spoiled.

but at least our cars don't run on maple syrup. that's up to $28/gal here this year. :lick:


we're going to hit Canada a couple of times this summer - get in before we need passcards at a proposed $50 per person (plus tax, admin fee, etc... which should bring it up to $75 or something) this Fall.
ever been to Cornwall, Ontario? they have an awesome 4 day hot air balloon fest during July complete with concerts, and other outdoor festivities right on the shores of the Saint Lawrence River.

not sure when i'm doing the RenFest this year, but looking forward to it. :)
elephant babies? i'm not up. :P

We have the Spiedie fest and Balloon Rally right here at Otseningo park..it usually draws about 13 thousand people..I'm not a huge fan of "rally" anything anymore to be honest..too much pushing, shoving, over charged parking prices..luckily with Otseningo I can see the Launches right from my upstairs window, and I can hear the music from the entertainers..the past few years, Rupert from Survivor was there. last year they included Rob and Amber and hardly anyone stood in line for autographs..LOL..We usually do a few days up at Alex bay every summer, and when we do we'll cross over the bridge and head to Brockville Ontario to do a bit of shopping..And naturally, the Castle is a must visit-even though there is nothing to do there but walk around..it's just habit. There is a lilac festival Up in Rochester that I'm thinking about heading up to this year..I hear it's amazing when the bushes are all in bloom. Other than that-it's probably just Lancaster and antique hunting-although I'm going to a lobsterfest in June in Mass. Oh and don't forget..TIOGA DOWNS opens up in May..wooohoooo! I won't have to drive to Turning Stone to appease my video slots habit..

[jstreet]

I haven't had a car in 5 years, being a citygoer. I walk everywhere or use subway/bus, and in the rare cases I need I car (IKEA once every year or so) I use a Zipcar (http://www.zipcar.com).

I just got through with reading the latest issue of Seed, which is quickly becoming my favorite magazine... sign up for a free issue (http://www.seedmagazine.com/magazine/)... and I've come to the conclusion that regular cars should be banned and only hybrids with larger batteries and the ability to be plugged-in should be sold, with vouchers and trade-in programs to jump-start mass conversion.

Seriously, this magazine is awesome.

[BigJon]

If gas gets that high...I might as well just ride to work. I live close enough, but just have nowhere to store my bike at work.

[Daedalus]

No change here. I would drive the same even if gas went to $7/gal. I'm not about to drop out of school or start biking to work everyday. It wouldn't make sense financially to trade in my car for a more fuel-efficient decent one either at that price. Total energy costs, including NG and electricity, would be up maybe 50% then.

[clutchy]

I bought a scooter in october of last year, because my wife lived 1 mile from school and work and she was killing my car with cold starts and never warming it up...

I'm glad we have it now, i can putz around to all the places i need to go on it, except school. Not to mention it's a lot of fun. I have a motorcycle too which i use to get to school. My car only gets used when it's really cold or raining and it even gets 30mpg...


the problem with gas is that it's an inelastic commodity. if prices jump demand only goes down a little. I would say a good portion of the people in this country can't really change their driving habits much b/c of work or school and the way this country is designed and the great spaces it occupies only makes things worse when gas gets expensive.

[blueindian]

I bought a scooter in october of last year, because my wife lived 1 mile from school and work and she was killing my car with cold starts and never warming it up...




No loitering. Don't let the engine run at idle any longer than necessary. After starting the car in the morning, begin driving right away; don't let it sit and "warm up" for several minutes. An engine actually warms up faster while driving. With most gasoline engines, it's more efficient to turn off the engine than to idle for any longer than 30 seconds.


this was in an article about increasing mpg.

[ShawnLee]

There's no way I could drive less than I do now, but I think I'd end up buying a motorcycle and riding that most of the time.

[nickel]

There's no way I could drive less than I do now, but I think I'd end up buying a motorcycle and riding that most of the time.
seriously, i know someone who just bought a motorcycle off a guy on ebay just for this reason; the foreseeable great possiblity that gas prices are going to get a lot worse. it makes me want a motorbike, too.

[guiseppewv]

this was in an article about increasing mpg.


I think what he means is the car never gets a chance to get to operating temperature during a 1 mile drive which is bad.

[Houdini]

I just got through with reading the latest issue of Seed, which is quickly becoming my favorite magazine... sign up for a free issue (http://www.seedmagazine.com/magazine/)... and I've come to the conclusion that regular cars should be banned and only hybrids with larger batteries and the ability to be plugged-in should be sold, with vouchers and trade-in programs to jump-start mass conversion.

Seriously, this magazine is awesome.

Bah...People don't realize that "plugged in" rechargeable cars do almost nothing for the environment of fuel costs, unless the charger is solar or the main plant on the grid is nuclear. Otherwise, as in most parts of the country, more coal will be burned, etc. It just moves the pollution somewhere else.

I do like hybrids, though. The regenerative braking idea, etc., is very cool. I'm waiting to see how good they get in the next few years. I'm also waiting to see what happens to the massive used batteries. Using hybrid technology would be good for enhancing performance too, without using a bigger engine/more gas, for car enthusiasts, if the technology gets better.

[guiseppewv]

Bah...People don't realize that "plugged in" rechargeable cars do almost nothing for the environment of fuel costs, unless the charger is solar or the main plant on the grid is nuclear. Otherwise, as in most parts of the country, more coal will be burned, etc. It just moves the pollution somewhere else.

I do like hybrids, though. The regenerative braking idea, etc., is very cool. I'm waiting to see how good they get in the next few years. I'm also waiting to see what happens to the massive used batteries. Using hybrid technology would be good for enhancing performance too, without using a bigger engine/more gas, for car enthusiasts, if the technology gets better.


I agree. I like the fact that hybrids try to make the car more efficient and somewhat succeed at it. Regenerative braking, powering down the engine when it isn't in use, etc.... are cool and effective ways to improve efficiency. I completely disagree with the whole plug in crap of hybrids or EVs. All you do is transfer the polution. We need to make vehicles more efficient, period. It is sad to me that my 94 Honda Accord gets 30 mpg in mixed city/hwy driving and 12 years later the Honda is rated by the EPA as getting 24 mpg-city/34 mpg-hwy, which if the EPA's test are actually equal to real world results then nothing much has changed in 12 years. I know the hondas in the 80s and 90s were ahead of their time - with respect to fuel economy but it is sad that the other manufacturers haven't caught up.

[clutchy]

I think what he means is the car never gets a chance to get to operating temperature during a 1 mile drive which is bad.

yes, thankyou for making that more clear.


I agree. I like the fact that hybrids try to make the car more efficient and somewhat succeed at it. Regenerative braking, powering down the engine when it isn't in use, etc.... are cool and effective ways to improve efficiency. I completely disagree with the whole plug in crap of hybrids or EVs. All you do is transfer the polution. We need to make vehicles more efficient, period. It is sad to me that my 94 Honda Accord gets 30 mpg in mixed city/hwy driving and 12 years later the Honda is rated by the EPA as getting 24 mpg-city/34 mpg-hwy, which if the EPA's test are actually equal to real world results then nothing much has changed in 12 years. I know the hondas in the 80s and 90s were ahead of their time - with respect to fuel economy but it is sad that the other manufacturers haven't caught up.


I have a '91 accord(30mpg), and yes, it's ridiculous that cars MPG haven't gone up much if any in the last 15yrs.

hybrids are great for reasons you mentioned, but I'm a little worried about the batteries. Have they come up w/ a recycling solution for them yet? If we all had them, that could become a big nasty problem.

they have some awesome hybrid scooters coming over the horizon soon, but america will always rely on cars, and that's where the majority of research funds should be spent.

[Ladogaboy]

Man, good thing I live a mile from work... I might actually start walking again.

[Houdini]

I agree. I like the fact that hybrids try to make the car more efficient and somewhat succeed at it. Regenerative braking, powering down the engine when it isn't in use, etc.... are cool and effective ways to improve efficiency. I completely disagree with the whole plug in crap of hybrids or EVs. All you do is transfer the polution. We need to make vehicles more efficient, period. It is sad to me that my 94 Honda Accord gets 30 mpg in mixed city/hwy driving and 12 years later the Honda is rated by the EPA as getting 24 mpg-city/34 mpg-hwy, which if the EPA's test are actually equal to real world results then nothing much has changed in 12 years. I know the hondas in the 80s and 90s were ahead of their time - with respect to fuel economy but it is sad that the other manufacturers haven't caught up.

Yeah, the EPA's numbers aren't always that applicable to real-world driving, depending on your style.

I get about 15 miles/gallon if I drive hard, 18 if I drive conservatively, and 30-34 on the highway at 80 or so. I just wish I had a manual txmission. More efficient than a slushbox.

[Daedalus]

No doubt manufacturers have been investing in other things. Features/amenities, not to mention performance. That is what consumers have been willing to pay for. Weight is still the biggest determinant of fuel efficiency for any modern gas-engine car. As far as electric vehicles being environmentally friendly, yes and no. NG electric plants and some (all?) coal plants are cleaner than auto engines, and the energy transfer efficiency is higher; i.e., you lose less between generation, transmission, charging and use than engines do by burning gasoline. What isn't often addressed is the environmental impact from building the auto and eventually disposing of it, especially the environmentally nasty batteries. Recycling efforts are improving, but between keeping an older car on the road and building a new hybrid, I think the environmental impact of keeping the old car on the road is still decidedly less.

[guiseppewv]

Battery recycling is pretty darn good now. Weight is only a major factor in stop and go. Wind resistance is a bigger factor once the vehicle is moving. None (or next to none) of the coal plants are more environmentally friendly than the new ulev and ulev-II vehicles. New coal power plants have not been built in a long time and even with the new scrubbers and other clean-air tech it is hard to make dirty (high sulfur) coal burn cleanly.

[guiseppewv]

Yeah, the EPA's numbers aren't always that applicable to real-world driving, depending on your style.

I get about 15 miles/gallon if I drive hard, 18 if I drive conservatively, and 30-34 on the highway at 80 or so. I just wish I had a manual txmission. More efficient than a slushbox.

What do you drive that has such a big diff in fuel efficiency from city to hwy? Just curious.

[clutchy]

What do you drive that has such a big diff in fuel efficiency from city to hwy? Just curious.


it's gotta be a BMW, 3 maybe 5 series.

[mechmike0034]

It is much cheaper for me to ride my motorcycle to work than it is to drive my car, since the car gets less than 20 MPG while commuting. The bike gets 40+ MPG in mixed-use.

The downside, environment-wise, is that the bike in all likelihood emits a greater quantity of pollutants (HC, CO, NOx) per mile as the car does during that commuting trip.

Why? No emission control devices at all on the bike, while the car has closed-loop electronic fuel injection, EGR, catalysts, and air injection.

[zero2dash]

/Time to start shopping for a crotch rocket...:heh:

[SnowSurfer]

dont we get most of our gas from canada? I'm 99% sure that we get more than 50% from canada....anyways, I take public transportation everywhere at the moment riding the train is easy and fun! :) lol

[ray]

Many countries overseas pay $5 a litre. Do the math.

[speedracer120]

/Time to start shopping for a crotch rocket...:heh:
Tell me about it.

[clutchy]

/Time to start shopping for a crotch rocket...:heh:

we in the motorcycling community prefer the term sportbike. If you'd like to sound knowledgable and not just another fanboi jumping on the bandwagon, i'd suggest you use the proper term when soliciting advice. Just a friendly reminder from a motorcyclist interested in seeing others join the sport correctly.:deal:

[Sirrich3]

Not looking forward to that!!!

[blueindian]

hybrids are great for reasons you mentioned, but I'm a little worried about the batteries. Have they come up w/ a recycling solution for them yet? If we all had them, that could become a big nasty problem.





Recycling efforts are improving, but between keeping an older car on the road and building a new hybrid, I think the environmental impact of keeping the old car on the road is still decidedly less.

I don't know where all this "the batteries are terrible for the environment" comes from. that's simply not the case. both honda and toyota have pretty good recycling programs. particulary toyota who has a 100% recovery and recycling including a $200 bounty on the battery packs if you send them one. i don't know what ford/mazda have in place.



How long does the Prius battery last and what is the replacement cost?

The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.

Is there a recycling plan in place for nickel-metal hydride batteries?

Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling

[guiseppewv]

dont we get most of our gas from canada? I'm 99% sure that we get more than 50% from canada....anyways, I take public transportation everywhere at the moment riding the train is easy and fun! :) lol


I don't think so but I would be interested in any article that would state how much gas we import.

[mcs328]

I would have to find a job closer to home. I don't drive as much as it is except for work and to buy groceries.

The battery in hybrids will be improved in the next two years. They already have a working prototype on a car that runs on lithium and some other metal batteries that are lighter and hold more charge. It has the added bonus of not exploding when hit by a car or gunshot which apparently is a problem with lithium-ion batteries. Beyond two years are lithium based batteries that will be based on carbon nanotubes to make them even lighter and increase their range. Don't have a link but I believe I read it a few weeks ago in Pop Sci or Wired.com.

I'm hoping we shift more and more to limitless energy sources like windmills, solar energy, funky jetstream generators and hydroelectric generators.

[Houdini]

it's gotta be a BMW, 3 maybe 5 series.

Howdja guess?

'03 325i. And no, I'm not P3rsian. :)

[clutchy]

Howdja guess?

'03 325i. And no, I'm not P3rsian. :)


hehe, shhh... both of my folks drive bmw's and that's about what they get. :thumb:


bmw's are weird in that they get great freeway mileage, but around town they don't do so hot...

[kevs]

I was looking back at my logs and saw that I paid $3.70/gallon for Premium here in Maryland last September. It never went higher than that at that point, but let's see what happens this summer.

[surfer]

I ride my bike to work and I bought a Civic Hybrid for my weekend driving.

[clutchy]

I ride my bike to work and I bought a Civic Hybrid for my weekend driving.

bicycle or moto?

how much do the civic hybrids cost? the new civics are supposed to get 30/40 is the hybrid that more efficient to justify the extra cost?

[Houdini]

I was looking back at my logs and saw that I paid $3.70/gallon for Premium here in Maryland last September. It never went higher than that at that point, but let's see what happens this summer.

Wow. $3.70 is way higher than here...approx $2.90 or so. Supposedly prices will decrease sometime in the near future. I don't buy it. Until we establish a reliable Iraqi pipeline and can buy gas at reasonable prices, it looks like we're stuck paying higher prices. That and we need to increase our refining capacity bigtime.

H <---stuck paying for primo gas

[Itsme]

I don't see any of the traditional facotrs causing a change in the price of gasoline...like new refineries, or more supply of oil from Canadfa or Mexico, etc. From what I read, the price of gasoline to us is set almost entirely by the speculators who drive the commodities markets. Someone speculates some small factor is about to change and the price changes...not based on any real fact.

[IrishSS]

Broke $3 here this afternoon...

[kgsilvas]

Hmmm. Wonder how the Polaris 700 Sportsman EFI would do for the work commute?? Not sure of the mpg.

[Houdini]

I don't see any of the traditional facotrs causing a change in the price of gasoline...like new refineries, or more supply of oil from Canadfa or Mexico, etc. From what I read, the price of gasoline to us is set almost entirely by the speculators who drive the commodities markets. Someone speculates some small factor is about to change and the price changes...not based on any real fact.

The speculation also has to do with Iran's stuff. That sux.

[brainsmile]

what a run on the bond market will do too

[Merlin]

Europeans must just be LOL at us......they've experienced over $3 petrol prices for years!!
Yes, and they can thank their government's ridiculous tax policies for that. If that market had less government intervention then the price they pay would be much closer to the USA.


Bah...People don't realize that "plugged in" rechargeable cars do almost nothing for the environment of fuel costs, unless the charger is solar or the main plant on the grid is nuclear. Otherwise, as in most parts of the country, more coal will be burned, etc. It just moves the pollution somewhere else.

Yes, but the idea is that one centralized power plant can produce energy more efficiently than a million tiny car engines. Think of it as economies of scale.

[Merlin]

I don't see any of the traditional facotrs causing a change in the price of gasoline...like new refineries, or more supply of oil from Canadfa or Mexico, etc. From what I read, the price of gasoline to us is set almost entirely by the speculators who drive the commodities markets. Someone speculates some small factor is about to change and the price changes...not based on any real fact.
The commodities traders do a very good job of looking at the available information and incorporating that into the price. So while speculators may indeed be the primary machine for setting prices, what they do is based on "facts" as well as very educated guesses/probabilities of the future.

[surfer]

bicycle or moto?

how much do the civic hybrids cost? the new civics are supposed to get 30/40 is the hybrid that more efficient to justify the extra cost?

Bicycle. Saves on needing a gym membership.

It's hard to justify buying a Civic Hybrid on cost alone. Sticker price for the base model is $21,000. You get a tax credit of $2100 for 2006 and stickers to drive in the carpool lane.

For me I was attracted by the ability to drive in the carpool lane as the freeways seem to be congested more and more hours of the day and hardly anybody drives in the carpool lane onramps and not too many in the carpool lane itself.

Also I tend to keep my vehicles about 10 years so I think it will be worth having a car that doesn't use much gas as gas prices have been going up every year.

The vehicle itself is really cool to drive as I love Civics and this one has really neat features like engine shutoff at stop lights.

Point is check it out. If you don't love it and want to keep it a long time it's a bad financial investment.

[cheapie]

was reading recently that petroleum inventories are huge right now. so that means that the refining capabilities are the bottleneck? people talk about demand going up and driving prices skyward but is that really try to if it's not tapping inventories?

[clutchy]

Bicycle. Saves on needing a gym membership.

It's hard to justify buying a Civic Hybrid on cost alone. Sticker price for the base model is $21,000. You get a tax credit of $2100 for 2006 and stickers to drive in the carpool lane.

For me I was attracted by the ability to drive in the carpool lane as the freeways seem to be congested more and more hours of the day and hardly anybody drives in the carpool lane onramps and not too many in the carpool lane itself.

Also I tend to keep my vehicles about 10 years so I think it will be worth having a car that doesn't use much gas as gas prices have been going up every year.

The vehicle itself is really cool to drive as I love Civics and this one has really neat features like engine shutoff at stop lights.

Point is check it out. If you don't love it and want to keep it a long time it's a bad financial investment.

that's great you have the ability to bike... lots of people don't... especially in california.


Is that a tax credit, or a deduction? I assume you actually mean credit, because they're very different beasts.

I'm trying to work out the cost/benefit for my folks... I'm trying to convince them to dump their older bmw convertible in favor of a more efficient commuter vehicle...

21,000 for a civic though? man, that's hard to stomach, they're nice cars... but even at 19,000 after credit and continued gas savings they're not that nice...

[guiseppewv]

was reading recently that petroleum inventories are huge right now. so that means that the refining capabilities are the bottleneck? people talk about demand going up and driving prices skyward but is that really try to if it's not tapping inventories?

I think it has to do more with pi$$ poor planning by the petro industry. They gambled that they would have lawsuit protection for MTBE contamination. Now they are trying to replace MTBE with ethanol and they didn't have a plan to do that.

[surfer]

that's great you have the ability to bike... lots of people don't... especially in california.


Is that a tax credit, or a deduction? I assume you actually mean credit, because they're very different beasts.

I'm trying to work out the cost/benefit for my folks... I'm trying to convince them to dump their older bmw convertible in favor of a more efficient commuter vehicle...

21,000 for a civic though? man, that's hard to stomach, they're nice cars... but even at 19,000 after credit and continued gas savings they're not that nice...


I hate driving to work so I bought a place close enough to bike.

It is a tax credit for 2006.

If you are mainly concerned about cost and efficiency I suggest you look at a Honda Fit. http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Fit
It's only $14,000 and it gets 31/38 mpg.

I chose the Civic Hybrid because I love Civics and wanted to drive in the carpool lane. It is expensive but you get what you pay for. It is the highest trim level so you get all the best stuff like ABS brakes, optional voice activated GPS navigation(I got it), cruise control, and a very cool heater/air conditioning unit. Check it out. Read the Motor Trend article about it. It won car of the year for 2006. It's not just fuel efficient it's also like a luxury car:
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid

I think it is really nice. Driving around town it is really quiet. When I'm at a stop light I don't hear anything except the stereo as the engine shuts off. It's a great stereo with 6 speakers. The CVT transmission is awesome. It's so smooth you never feel a jerky shift because it doesn't use gears. "CVT is an advanced transmission that substitutes the gears found in more traditional transmissions and replaces them with a metal push-belt running between a pair of variable-width pulleys." I don't think I'll ever want to go back to driving a conventional transmission.

The voice activated GPS is really cool. You can add one on the dash but it's not as elegant. You can add an in-dash aftermarket one but it voids the warranty on the electrical system I think. The voice activation also controls the radio and the environment controls. It's really cool and my kid loves giving voice commands for the gps and radio.

The car is expensive and it won't save me a bunch of money unless gas prices keep going up. I heard today it might hit $4/gallon this year. I'd rather give my money to Honda and have a real cool car than drive a less efficient car and give more of my money to the rich oil companies.

[guiseppewv]

I hate driving to work so I bought a place close enough to bike.

It is a tax credit for 2006.

If you are mainly concerned about cost and efficiency I suggest you look at a Honda Fit. http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Fit
It's only $14,000 and it gets 31/38 mpg.

I chose the Civic Hybrid because I love Civics and wanted to drive in the carpool lane. It is expensive but you get what you pay for. It is the highest trim level so you get all the best stuff like ABS brakes, optional voice activated GPS navigation(I got it), cruise control, and a very cool heater/air conditioning unit. Check it out. Read the Motor Trend article about it. It won car of the year for 2006. It's not just fuel efficient it's also like a luxury car:
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid

I think it is really nice. Driving around town it is really quiet. When I'm at a stop light I don't hear anything except the stereo as the engine shuts off. It's a great stereo with 6 speakers. The CVT transmission is awesome. It's so smooth you never feel a jerky shift because it doesn't use gears. "CVT is an advanced transmission that substitutes the gears found in more traditional transmissions and replaces them with a metal push-belt running between a pair of variable-width pulleys." I don't think I'll ever want to go back to driving a conventional transmission.

The voice activated GPS is really cool. You can add one on the dash but it's not as elegant. You can add an in-dash aftermarket one but it voids the warranty on the electrical system I think. The voice activation also controls the radio and the environment controls. It's really cool and my kid loves giving voice commands for the gps and radio.

The car is expensive and it won't save me a bunch of money unless gas prices keep going up. I heard today it might hit $4/gallon this year. I'd rather give my money to Honda and have a real cool car than drive a less efficient car and give more of my money to the rich oil companies.


Hey, your links don't work.

I do not agree with you that the civic hybrid is a luxury car. First off there is no option for leather in the civic hybrid. It might have great options but it is not a luxury vehicle. :)

[surfer]

Hey, your links don't work.

I do not agree with you that the civic hybrid is a luxury car. First off there is no option for leather in the civic hybrid. It might have great options but it is not a luxury vehicle. :)


You can check out the vehicles at:
http://automobiles.honda.com
The direct links worked for me.

I didn't say it was a luxury car. It has some luxury features so I said it was like a luxury car.

I prefer cloth seats to leather. Leather is really hot in the summer and really cold in the winter.

[clutchy]

I prefer cloth seats to leather. Leather is really hot in the summer and really cold in the winter.

and oh so luxurious in between :P

[guiseppewv]

You can check out the vehicles at:
http://automobiles.honda.com
The direct links worked for me.

I didn't say it was a luxury car. It has some luxury features so I said it was like a luxury car.

I prefer cloth seats to leather. Leather is really hot in the summer and really cold in the winter.

That is why in luxury cars you get seat heaters and ventilated seats with the leather. :P

[Airencracken]

http://www.greasecar.com/

Mixed with a hybrid powertrain and bingo. 80mpg and no oil dependence.

Of course then we'll all be beholden to Kansas.

http://www.theaircar.com/

But we'd all die in a collision with an SUV.

Plug in hybrids with a green means of generating the electricity. (e.g. Solar/wind)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization

Make our own fuel.

[surfer]

That is why in luxury cars you get seat heaters and ventilated seats with the leather. :P


Too extravagent for me. I prefer my bicycle and the zero fuel costs.

[Houdini]

More nuke plants would help, if people want to go electric. I still love my car though, and plan on getting a bigger/nicer one in a few years (M5 anyone?)
Hybrids are great for city driving, so it would probably help me a lot, but my car gets equivalent mileage on the highway than most hybrids, as well as a helluva lot more power for passing, avoiding idiots, getting me places in a hurry, etc.


H <---- still desiging that tide-mill. The moon has to be good for something...

[speedracer120]

H <---- still desiging that tide-mill. The moon has to be good for something...
Hahaha. Imagine you got that to work and aliens or some other forces destroyed the moon. Oh boy. Hahaha.

On a similar vein, somone needs to invent a way to harness lightning energy instead of just letting it dissipate into the ground. I remember reading in Popular Science that this place in New Mexico is hit with lightning frequently and that people have set up a "lightning farm" of sorts. But the energy is still just being dissipated and not harnessed into some sort of super capacitor and slowly being distributed through the power grid.

[brainsmile]

my car gets equivalent mileage on the highway than most hybrids, as well as a helluva lot more power for passing, avoiding idiots, getting me places in a hurry, etc.

what do you drive?

[clutchy]

what do you drive?

check out page of this thread! :shifty:

[guiseppewv]

what do you drive?

One of those grease cars - www.greasecars.com

[InfiniteNothing]

Hahaha. Imagine you got that to work and aliens or some other forces destroyed the moon. Oh boy. Hahaha.

On a similar vein, somone needs to invent a way to harness lightning energy instead of just letting it dissipate into the ground. I remember reading in Popular Science that this place in New Mexico is hit with lightning frequently and that people have set up a "lightning farm" of sorts. But the energy is still just being dissipated and not harnessed into some sort of super capacitor and slowly being distributed through the power grid.
Store the energy as inertia: all you need to do is scale up an electric motor and after a lightning strike, run the city off the back emf.

[InfiniteNothing]

H <---- still desiging that tide-mill. The moon has to be good for something...
We have that kinda: hydroelectric dams on the Panama canal.

[clutchy]

We have that kinda: hydroelectric dams on the Panama canal.


I don't believe we own the canal anymore...

[InfiniteNothing]

We, as in, humanity. I was claiming the idea wasn't quite novel.

[Houdini]

We have that kinda: hydroelectric dams on the Panama canal.

Yeah, but not quite the same. If we had some nice floaters on areas of our huge coasts, we could likely generate power. :shrug:

Then again, I like SR's comment about the lightning stuff. A bigass capacitor would be cool. Or a big motor/flywheel like you suggested, powered by lightning. Keep that thing spinninng, and use it as an alternator.

[Daedalus]

Not to discourage invention, but a lightning bolt only has maybe 10-80 gallons of gasoline in energy equivalency. The efficiency of capture is unlikely to be very high. I can't even imagine the capacitor size necessary to convince lightning to stay on it; we're talking about an electrical charge that is already big enough to jump miles of air just to get to ground. Granted, there are 8 million strikes per day, but earth is a big place--1 strike per 32,600 square miles per day. A single collection point would probably be lucky to get a few strikes in a year. How much would it cost and how much energy would it return? Better to not wait for it to randomly hit, but to go after the energy at its source?

[InfiniteNothing]

Really, where do you get that 10-80 number from. I don't doubt it. It might be worth to invent just from the tourism it would draw.


Yeah, but not quite the same. If we had some nice floaters on areas of our huge coasts, we could likely generate power. :shrug:

Then again, I like SR's comment about the lightning stuff. A bigass capacitor would be cool. Or a big motor/flywheel like you suggested, powered by lightning. Keep that thing spinninng, and use it as an alternator.Floaters? are you thinking of some sort of piston? Neat.

It would be easy to keep a motor spinning if you put it in a vacuum :)

[Houdini]

Not to discourage invention, but a lightning bolt only has maybe 10-80 gallons of gasoline in energy equivalency. The efficiency of capture is unlikely to be very high. I can't even imagine the capacitor size necessary to convince lightning to stay on it; we're talking about an electrical charge that is already big enough to jump miles of air just to get to ground. Granted, there are 8 million strikes per day, but earth is a big place--1 strike per 32,600 square miles per day. A single collection point would probably be lucky to get a few strikes in a year. How much would it cost and how much energy would it return? Better to not wait for it to randomly hit, but to go after the energy at its source?

1.21 GIGAWATTS!

[Daedalus]

Really, where do you get that 10-80 number from. I ran the #s out of curiosity. A quick google showed energy of the average lightning bolt to be estimated at 1-10 GJ. I know from doing presentation research for the Prius that gasoline has about 130 MJ/gallon. 10-80 gallons was a rough rounding. It really looks tiny next to total US consumption of ~320,000,000 gallons/day.


1.21 GIGAWATTS!
Hey, we got the same answer! :D

[guiseppewv]

I think with some improvements, solar could be a significant contributor to our energy production. You don't need to make huge solar farms but you could make many small solar "farms" or even just single panels. There are plenty of open places to put these - parking lots (obviously need to be up high enough so cars can fit under them), closed landfills, middle of the desert, unoccupied/ununsed areas around military bases and public airlfields, etc.....

What do you all think?

I found an informative solar energy website - http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/solar-power/

The site has many articles including those that talk about MS's new solar farm, the air force trying to build an 18MW solar farm, etc...

Here are a few that I found very interesting:


The U.S. Air Force is already the largest purchaser of renewable energy credits (RECs). Now the USAF is on the way to supporting the construction of one of the largest solar photovoltaic (PV) systems in the world. Nellis Air Force Base will be requesting proposals for the procurement of renewable utility services from a contractor owned PV array capable of generating 18 megawatts (MW) of peak electrical energy. The successful bidder will own, operate, maintain and repair the PV array including replacing the solar panels. The Government will acquire electrical service from the contractor through a utility service contract.


Michael Costen has gotten $10,000 from the state to start up a business that would help wean us off fossil fuels. Costen's laboratory is right in his backyard because when you're working on a solar collector, being outside is a must. In the "lite trough" sunlight hits Mylar panels and the energy is harnessed to heat water flowing through a pipe. Solar energy technology isn't new, but Costen has found a way to use inexpensive materials, and less of them. The Mylar that is used is exactly what you find inside bags of potato chips. Cheaper materials lead to lower energy costs


Microsoft flipped the switch Friday on what it says is the largest solar-panel system in Silicon Valley. The software giant's five-building campus in Mountain View is now bedecked with 31,000 square feet of solar panels, generating enough electricity to power about 300 homes. The panels adorn the roofs of the campus' five buildings. A ceremony held Friday to showcase the solar technology was designed to commemorate Earth Day today. Microsoft's Silicon Valley campus is the latest in a slow trickle of facilities to embrace solar panels, as companies and government agencies seek cost-effective ways to ensure reliable electrical power. The Microsoft system was installed by PowerLight, a Berkeley company, and one of the largest installers of commercial systems in the country. PowerLight, in turn, used the solar-panel technology produced by Sunnyvale's SunPower. That company recently went public on the Nasdaq and has seen its share price soar to around $40 since its debut in November at $25


With such a crisis dealing with gas prices - nearly $3 a gallon - much of the world's focus is on other forms of energy, and lessening the dependence on fossil fuels. So, Saturday, a new solar power plant was commemorated in nearby Red Rock, Arizona. It's the first solar power plant of its kind to be used in the U.S. in nearly two decades, and it's a *reflection of what the world hopes to see dealing with energy technology, for many years to come. The solar thermal parabolic trough power plant gives hundreds of homes and businesses electricity by using something that comes natural in Arizona: sunlight.


This weekend in the Arizona desert, 30 miles north of Tucson, the first Concentrating Solar Power (CSP) trough-style energy facility to be constructed in nearly two decades will officially go online and begin delivering power to the U.S. grid. The rows of gleaming mirrored troughs that power a one-megawatt (MW) generator represent a new phase for solar energy in Arizona and the broader U.S. "This solar plant exemplifies that thousands of megawatts of solar electric power can be brought on in the southwestern United States without polluting land or water, without competing for water resources, and meeting baseload electric power requirements of a dynamically growing region of the United States."