Hybrids Bigger Energy Waster Than SUVs?

[johnnymk]

Newsmax.com

Is it an indictment against hybrid vehicles or a press release from General Motors?

You be the judge after checking out a new study by Oregon-Based CNW Marketing Research that claims hybrid autos consume more energy over the lifetime of the car than a Chevrolet Tahoe SUV.

"As Americans become increasingly interested in fuel economy and global warming, they are beginning to make choices about the vehicles they drive based on fuel economy and to a lesser degree emissions," says the study. "But many of those choices aren't actually the best in terms of vehicle lifetime energy usage and the cost to society over the full lifetime of a car or truck."

CNW claims it has spent that past two years digging up data on automobile energy usage from "concept to scrappage." In other words, they're referring to energy used on things like plant to dealer fuel costs, employee driving distances, electricity usage per pound of material used in each vehicle and literally hundreds of other variables.

The study labels such criteria as "dollars per lifetime mile," or the energy cost per mile driven.

What will surely rankle hybrid drivers is CNW's findings that the much-heralded "fuel efficient" vehicles cost more in terms of overall energy consumed than comparable non-hybrid vehicles.

"For example, the Honda Accord Hybrid has an energy cost per mile of $3.29 while the conventional Honda Accord is $2.18," says the study. "Put simply, over the "Dust to Dust" lifetime of the Accord Hybrid, it will require about 50% more energy than the non-hybrid version."

And while the industry average of all vehicles sold in the U.S. in 2005 was $2.28 per mile, the Hummer H3 (an SUV) was only $1.949 per mile. That figure is also lower than all currently offered hybrids and Honda Civic at $2.42 per mile.

CNW says that among reasons hybrids cost more than non-hybrids are the manufacture, replacement and disposal of such items as batteries and electric motors (in addition to the conventional engine), lighter-weight materials and complexity of the power package.

"If a consumer is concerned about fuel economy because of family budgets or depleting oil supplies, it is perfectly logical to consider buying high-fuel-economy vehicles," says Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research, Inc. "But if the concern is the broader issues, such as environmental impact of energy usage, some high-mileage vehicles actually cost society more than conventional or even larger models over their lifetime."

"We believe this kind of data is important in a consumer's selection of transportation," says Spinella. "Basing purchase decisions solely on fuel economy or vehicle size does not get to the heart of the energy usage issue."

Hybrid cars have seen a rise in popularity for the past few years because of environmental concerns and lower gas mileage. U.S. car sales figures appear to back up the anecdotal evidence. Sales of GM's Envoy and Chevrolet Tahoe fell more than 50% in September 2005 compared to September 2004, while Toyota's Prius sales increased by 90% from the same period

[zero2dash]

If people were concerned with energy use/the environment, we would've had electric cars a long time ago like they promised. :stupid: Instead, the gas companies and "big business" like getting those paychecks every month, so instead of evolving to another energy source, they just pressure the automakers into 'sticking with gas' and they don't care about the environment/energy as long as their bottom line is met.

Amazing - never ceases to amaze me how people complain no matter what. If you use gasoline cars, you use less energy, pay less for the car, but spend out the wazoo for fuel. Hybrid - more energy, higher upfront sticker cost, less for fuel. No-win situation. :shrug: I wish I could just pedal a bike to work everyday but it's too far away.

I'm still wondering how come every time I see a hybrid (primarily those ugly Prius models), the people driving them drive like crap. :heh:

[Chgoman]

So the message is that everyone should sell thier hybrids and buy hummers. Yeah, then we'd be better off.

[InfiniteNothing]

If people were concerned with energy use/the environment, we would've had electric cars a long time ago like they promised. :stupid: Instead, the gas companies and "big business" like getting those paychecks every month, so instead of evolving to another energy source, they just pressure the automakers into 'sticking with gas' and they don't care about the environment/energy as long as their bottom line is met.

Amazing - never ceases to amaze me how people complain no matter what. If you use gasoline cars, you use less energy, pay less for the car, but spend out the wazoo for fuel. Hybrid - more energy, higher upfront sticker cost, less for fuel. No-win situation. :shrug: I wish I could just pedal a bike to work everyday but it's too far away.

I'm still wondering how come every time I see a hybrid (primarily those ugly Prius models), the people driving them drive like crap. :heh:
Electric vehicles aren't perfect. They only displace pollution. Just drive a fuel efficient vehicle and you won't cower from high prices.


Is it an indictment against hybrid vehicles or a press release from General Motors?
I call BS. There's way to much complexity in the calculations. Someone is cooking the numbers.

[johnnymk]

All electric vehicles have pitiful ranges before recharging. Maybe in 5 or 10 years, they will be an acceptable alternative, but right now they are an expensive joke.

[blueindian]

I call BS. There's way to much complexity in the calculations. Someone is cooking the numbers.


i'm soooooooooooooo with stupid.

basically, my response to this study is, "bwahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahah ahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahaha hahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahah ahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahaha hhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahah hahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahh ahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahha hahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhah ahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhaha hahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahah ahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahaha hahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahah"

[OC]

Electric vehicles would be just fine for most uses. The vast majority of automobile trips in the US are under 10 miles.

[Markel]

Electric vehicles would be just fine for most uses. The vast majority of automobile trips in the US are under 10 miles.
The average commute time in the Chicago area is 33 minutes each way (for the 65% that are driving). Probably over 10 miles. For the state of California, 28 minutes (86.6% driving). Most major cities are in the same ball park.

[InfiniteNothing]

To be fair it takes you more than 28 minutes to go 10 miles in California.

[Houdini]

Electric vehicles would be just fine for most uses. The vast majority of automobile trips in the US are under 10 miles.

As IN pointed out though, electric vehicles don't do anything for the environment, really, nor are they necessarily cheaper or more practical to use/maintain, etc.

If you plug in your car, it's like running your air conditioner or dishwasher. Sure, the car gets charged, but the electricity comes from somewhere. Sure, the car doesn't pollute, but the plants that produce the electricity sure do.

[OC]

Sure, the car doesn't pollute, but the plants that produce the electricity sure do.I agree, but the point is that cars and trucks do pollute, electrical plants to charge electric cars (and provide electricity four our homes) don't have to pollute. There's way more solar and wind energy potential than you might think. Electric cars would be one part of an overall plan.

An electric car in stop and go traffic is still going to use much less energy than a gas-powered vehicle, and except in extreme circumstances - like taking two hours to go ten miles - would still make the trip just fine with range to spare, even better if there's a charging station on the other end. Think infrastructure.

Are electric cars perfect for every single car trip? No, of course not. I'm not looking for a perfect solution, I'm looking for an acceptable one. People need to stop thinking in absolutes and start thinking about how they can incorporate non-polluting alternatives in their lives.

[Houdini]

I agree, but the point is that cars and trucks do pollute, electrical plants to charge electric cars (and provide electricity four our homes) don't have to pollute. There's way more solar and wind energy potential than you might think. Electric cars would be one part of an overall plan.

An electric car in stop and go traffic is still going to use much less energy than a gas-powered vehicle, and except in extreme circumstances - like taking two hours to go ten miles - would still make the trip just fine with range to spare, even better if there's a charging station on the other end. Think infrastructure.

Are electric cars perfect for every single car trip? No, of course not. I'm not looking for a perfect solution, I'm looking for an acceptable one. People need to stop thinking in absolutes and start thinking about how they can incorporate non-polluting alternatives in their lives.

The key word is "potential." In most parts of the country, little to no electricity for local grids is generated via windmills, solar panels, or hydroelectric plants for many reasons. Sure, it would be great if those things were universal, but they're not, yet. So buying an electric car, as of now, merely displaces the pollution, unless the major plant on your grid is nuclear. But that in and of itself presents a whole new set of problems.

H <---still working on that tide-mill....

[InfiniteNothing]

Yes but the average power plant (especially modern power plants) are much cleaner per unit of energy than cars. So it helps, and eventually, that's where the market is going, it just doesn't make sense right this moment. I'm a strong proponent for light weight, aerodynamic, plug in hybrids.

[blueindian]

Yes but the average power plant (especially modern power plants) are much cleaner per unit of energy than cars. So it helps, and eventually, that's where the market is going, it just doesn't make sense right this moment. I'm a strong proponent for light weight, aerodynamic, plug in hybrids.

yup, the plug in is key. and probably nuclear power. the new, smaller, meltdown-proof plants they've got in europe kick ass. they are extremly effecient, and in another hundred years we'll figure out what to do with the waste.

[InfiniteNothing]

I wonder what's the cost of shipping it to the moon. Maybe we can get enough nuclear reaction to set up a psudo sun for increased productivity "Hey, Bob, does the moon look greener to you?"

[OC]

I wonder what's the cost of shipping it to the moon.
Or into the sun.

[hapoo]

obviously it costs more. The ICE has been mass produced for the past 100 years, they've had time to bring the costs down. The parts for hybrids though haven't been mass produced for more than maybe 5 years. I'm sure the cost will fall as time goes on.

[cheapie]

yup, the plug in is key. and probably nuclear power. the new, smaller, meltdown-proof plants they've got in europe kick ass. they are extremly effecient, and in another hundred years we'll figure out what to do with the waste.


the problem is right now it's not even close to being a viable solution. i actually sell a hybrid electric drivetrain and it's absurd how much it's costing. esp for the batteries.

[DarkFury]

Heh.. all we gotta do is wait for the "Mr. Fusion" engine to be created by Dr. Emmett Brown.

Problem solved. :D

[InfiniteNothing]

Alright, we skip the battery and we all drive bumper cars.

[hapoo]

Heh.. all we gotta do is wait for the "Mr. Fusion" engine to be created by Dr. Emmett Brown.

Problem solved. :D


He didn't invent it. He went to the future and had his car modified for it. :P

[blueindian]

the problem is right now it's not even close to being a viable solution. i actually sell a hybrid electric drivetrain and it's absurd how much it's costing. esp for the batteries.

obviously i'm not an expert here, but what's so difficult about taking the prius and adding a plug? might need a power inverter in between, but other than that, :shrug:

[InfiniteNothing]

Nothing. It's been done. In fact, if you search the forum, you'll find it. It's been done on the Insight and the Prius. They were getting nutty high milage (100-250 depending on trip length). The modification isn't that expensive either. I'd do it if I owned an insight (which I'd buy if I was in the market for a compact).

[Chgoman]

I've read that Toyota is already researching the plug in addition to the hybrid vehicles. They have said that all of thier vehicles will be available in Hybrid models over the next 5 years. The plug in version that they are researching will have a second set of batteries that are plug in. Basically the car will be able to go 30-50 miles on the plug in batteries before they are depleted and then it will convert to the first set of batteries which will work like the current hybrids. The math they are doing (including coverting costs of electrical power vs. gas power) are saying they can get 150+ miles to the gallon based on 1st generation technology with this sytem.

[cheapie]

obviously i'm not an expert here, but what's so difficult about taking the prius and adding a plug? might need a power inverter in between, but other than that, :shrug:


the problem is not power generation, it's power storage. we can generate a ton of power cheaply. storing it onboard in a safe and efficient manner is mad expensive. we're hoping the power of scale will greatly reduce the costs.

here's a for instance. i'm working with a school bus company that is interested in our product. the company that issued the RFQ (request for quote) wanted an engine-off option that would allow the vehicle to drive for 45 minutes or so w/o kicking on the engine. that hybrid setup would add a staggering $200k or so to the COST to build the vehicle. that's cost, not what it would be priced to the end consumer at.

a much cheaper solution is the hybrid solution that doesn't carry nearly as much of a charge, but greatly reduces emissions and improves fuel efficiency. maybe not enough to make it worth buying a hybrid based on the improved fuel mileage, but enough when you factor in federal grants and the positive publicity you gain.

we're desperately hoping battery costs drop so it can truly be a viable solution.

here's a link to our first major project with FedEx, the gvt, and Freightliner Custom Chassis (FCCC). I work for Eaton and FCCC is my customer.

[Houdini]

Or into the sun.

:stupid:

Once it's out of the atmosphere and presents no problems for fallout in a disaster (which is the main reason, as I understand, followed by weight that it's not done now), why go to the moon when you can just sail it into the sun? We're going to colonize the moon much sooner than we'll colonize the sun. :)

[InfiniteNothing]

A hybrid system is all wrong for a bus. The only thing you'd have to gain is publicity. CNG is a much better solution for a bus. You know what else would help busses: aerodynamics.

[Houdini]

A hybrid system is all wrong for a bus. The only thing you'd have to gain is publicity. CNG is a much better solution for a bus. You know what else would help busses: aerodynamics.

Or hydrogen, but it's expensive b/c it's difficult to make, though it is offered in some places in Europe for some reason. If someone were to, say, use existing power supplies (and maybe fusion in the future) to crack seawater, we'd have an unlimited supply of fuel. And the exhaust would be good old H20.

[InfiniteNothing]

Hydrogen is dumb. You'll spend way too much energy compressing it to have it worth while. You want to do what to sea water? I've always thought harnessing the moon would be cool technology. If it can power the tides, it's gotta have alot of potential.

[blueindian]

Or hydrogen, but it's expensive b/c it's difficult to make, though it is offered in some places in Europe for some reason. If someone were to, say, use existing power supplies (and maybe fusion in the future) to crack seawater, we'd have an unlimited supply of fuel. And the exhaust would be good old H20.

hydrogen is interesting, but i doubt it's a good long term solution. it has roughly 2.5 times the energy (54,000 btu per lb versus 20460 according to a quick google search) but that's after it's been "refined." so, by putting ton of energy into extracting the hydrogen from wherever you get it, you're really just relocating the source of pollution.

auto manufacturers would begin building bigger, less effecient vehicles based on the "clean tailpipe" while leaving out the rest of the equation. consumers would buy these vehicles based on the flawed advertising and we'd end up in a similar or maybe worse situation than we have now.

[Markel]

Fusion power! Just don't go running up to an accident site.... :eek:

[cheapie]

A hybrid system is all wrong for a bus. The only thing you'd have to gain is publicity. CNG is a much better solution for a bus. You know what else would help busses: aerodynamics.


i'm talking school busses. average speed is under 40 with oodles of stops and starts making it a great prospect for a source of regenerative braking energy. aerodynamics wouldn't do anything.

of course a greyhound is another matter entirely.