Why I will stop flying

gwilks98 · 06-07-2008, 06:31 AM

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...bodyscan_N.htm

Quote:

BALTIMORE — Body-scanning machines that show images of people underneath their clothing are being installed in 10 of the nation's busiest airports in one of the biggest public uses of security devices that reveal intimate body parts.

The Transportation Security Administration recently started using body scans on randomly chosen airline passengers in Los Angeles, Baltimore, Denver, Albuquerque and New York's Kennedy airport.

Airports in Dallas, Detroit, Las Vegas and Miami will be added this month. Reagan National Airport near Washington starts using a body scanner Friday. A total of 38 machines will be in use within weeks.

"It's the wave of the future," said James Schear, the TSA security director at Baltimore-Washington International Airport, where two body scanners are in use at one checkpoint.

Schear said the scanners could eventually replace metal detectors at the nation's 2,000 airport checkpoints and the pat-downs done on passengers who need extra screening. "We're just scratching the surface of what we can do with whole-body imaging," Schear said.
FIND MORE STORIES IN: Detroit | Miami | Dallas | Las Vegas | Transportation Security Administration | American Civil Liberties Union | Albuquerque | Amsterdam | New York | Kennedy | Homeland Security | Los Angeles | California Institute of Technology | Denver | Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport | Baltimore-Washington International Airport | Barry Steinhardt | Clark Kent Ervin | Schiphol | Sterling Payne

The TSA effort could encourage scanners' use in rail stations, arenas and office buildings, the American Civil Liberties Union said. "This may well set a precedent that others will follow," said Barry Steinhardt, head of the ACLU technology project.

Scanners are used in a few courthouses, jails and U.S. embassies, as well as overseas border crossings, military checkpoints and some foreign airports such as Amsterdam's Schiphol.

'The ultimate answer'

The scanners bounce harmless "millimeter waves" off passengers who are selected to stand inside a portal with arms raised after clearing the metal detector. A TSA screener in a nearby room views the black-and-white image and looks for objects on a screen that are shaded differently from the body. Finding a suspicious object, a screener radios a colleague at the checkpoint to search the passenger.

The TSA says it protects privacy by blurring passengers' faces and deleting images right after viewing. Yet the images are detailed, clearly showing a person's gender. "You can actually see the sweat on someone's back," Schear said.

The scanners aim to strengthen airport security by spotting plastic and ceramic weapons and explosives that evade metal detectors and are the biggest threat to aviation. Government audits have found that screeners miss a large number of weapons, bombs and bomb parts such as wires and timers that agents sneak through checkpoints.

"I'm delighted by this development," said Clark Kent Ervin, the former Homeland Security inspector general whose reports urged the use of body scanners. "This really is the ultimate answer to increasing screeners' ability to spot concealed weapons."

The scanners do a good job seeing under clothing but cannot see through plastic or rubber materials that resemble skin, said Peter Siegel, a senior scientist at the California Institute of Technology. "You probably could find very common materials that you could wrap around you that would effectively obscure things," Siegel said.

'You have to go along with it'

Passengers who went through a scanner at the Baltimore airport last week were intrigued, reassured and occasionally wary. The process took about 30 seconds on average.

Stepping into the 9-foot-tall glass booth, Eileen Reardon of Baltimore looked startled when an electronic glass door slid around the outside of the machine to create the image of her body. "Some of this stuff seems a little crazy," Reardon said, "but in this day and age, you have to go along with it."

Scott Shafer of Phoenix didn't mind a screener looking at him underneath his shorts and polo shirt from a nearby room. The door is kept shut and blocked with floor screens. "I don't know that person back there. I'll never seem them," Shafer said. "Everything personal is taken out of the equation."

Steinhardt of the ACLU said passengers would be alarmed if they saw the image of their body. "It all seems very clinical and non-threatening — you go through this portal and don't have any idea what's at the other end," he said.

Passengers scanned in Baltimore said they did not know what the scanner did and were not told why they were directed into the booth.

Magazine-sized signs are posted around the checkpoint explaining the scanners, but passengers said they did not notice them.

Darin Scott of Miami was annoyed by the process.

"If you don't ask questions, they don't tell you anything," Scott said. When he asked a screener technical questions about the scanner, "he could not answer," Scott said.

TSA spokeswoman Sterling Payne said the agency is studying passenger reaction and could "get more creative" about informing passengers. "If passengers have questions," she said, "they need to ask the questions."

Passengers can decline to go through a scanner, but they will face a pat-down.

Schear, the Baltimore security director, said only 4% of passengers decline.

In Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport, where scanners have been tested since last year as an alternative to pat-downs, 90% of passengers choose to be scanned, the TSA says.

"Most passengers don't think it's any big deal," Schear said. "They think it's a piece of security they're willing to do."

It's not that I'm shy. It's that security beliefs in this country will stop at no bounds with respect to privacy. There are always going to be ways to get around these scanners and they don't effectively do anything for security.

Screw you, TSA. The airlines are having a hard enough time getting revenue and now you pull this.

thresher · 06-07-2008, 08:38 AM

Not to justify the other side but seriously, it's just an xray basically and an ugly one at that. It'll help defeat the most basic of smuggling (drugs included) and the fact it's even there is a barricade for bad guys. Sorry, vocabulary is struggling this morning.

InfiniteNothing · 06-07-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thresher

Not to justify the other side but seriously, it's just an xray basically and an ugly one at that. It'll help defeat the most basic of smuggling (drugs included) and the fact it's even there is a barricade for bad guys. Sorry, vocabulary is struggling this morning.

I think the invasion of privacy speaks for itself. You really want your family members ogled?

I don't really want an X-ray either. As if I don't get enough radiation. I'm sure the next invasion of privacy will only be a bit worse than this.

Thesifer · 06-07-2008, 11:40 AM

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this, I mean I guess it "invades" privacy, but it's not as if the image is being displayed for all to see. Just a TSA Agent with his Blue Rubber gloves..

InfiniteNothing · 06-07-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwilks98

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...bodyscan_N.htm

It's not that I'm shy. It's that security beliefs in this country will stop at no bounds with respect to privacy. There are always going to be ways to get around these scanners and they don't effectively do anything for security.

Screw you, TSA. The airlines are having a hard enough time getting revenue and now you pull this.

My understanding is that the scanners can be defeated by rubber and skin like material, so you'll be able to hide a gun in a fake muscle.

ArkiStan · 06-07-2008, 03:18 PM

because keeping my ugly testicles to myself, now that would be letting the terrorists win.

ShawnLee · 06-07-2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArkiStan

because keeping my ugly testicles to myself, now that would be letting the terrorists win.

So tempted to make this my sig...

Eh - scan me. And if I get any funny looks? "It's cold! Shrinkage!"

InfiniteNothing · 06-07-2008, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShawnLee

So tempted to make this my sig...

Eh - scan me. And if I get any funny looks? "It's cold! Shrinkage!"

You also cool with your future wife and kids getting scanned?

renovation · 06-07-2008, 10:21 PM

if it help protect me while flying im all for it.
and if someone wants to a picture of my body they can have it.
and in short amount of time this be just the normal to all of us.right now its new so your thinking about.after the first time or two you wont think twice about it. i fly all the time and only maybe 2 or 3 times had to given extra screening and thats no big thing .i have nothing to hide and it just that i was the lucky one to be picked. and my bags 3/4 times when i get them back they have a note in them saying they were checked ( inspected ).
get a life 9/11 changed it for all of us.

InfiniteNothing · 06-08-2008, 12:47 AM

That's the worrying part. It will be the norm and then they'll come out with something else and that will be the norm. 9/11 isn't a free pass for invasion of privacy. We all have to die someday. If you die due to terrorism, at least you died free.

Lastly, for reasons I already mentioned, it is unlikely to make you safer.

gwilks98 · 06-08-2008, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfiniteNothing

That's the worrying part. It will be the norm and then they'll come out with something else and that will be the norm. 9/11 isn't a free pass for invasion of privacy. We all have to die someday. If you die due to terrorism, at least you died free.

Lastly, for reasons I already mentioned, it is unlikely to make you safer.

This mentality, when allowed to run rampant, will never stop. 20 years down the road when some $10 an hour lackey is putting his finger up your butt looking for explosives, I want to hear you all say "...well, if it keeps me safe..."

You invent a security measure, the ones that want to take advantage of it will just find a new hole to exploit. That's the nature of the beast and stupid crap like this is addressing symptoms instead of the underlying problem.

gear02 · 06-08-2008, 01:25 AM

funny - i would pick other reasons to stop flying...like:

1) airlines not understanding what customer service is
2) treating us like cattle
3) charging us for everything above and beyond our tickets - luggage, food, entertainment, booking fees, change fees, slightly better tickets. Soon they'll be charging us for oxygen or something
4) incredibly high ticket prices to begin with
5) flight delays - it's almost seems like an on-time flight is a novelty.

cheapie · 06-09-2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gear02

funny - i would pick other reasons to stop flying...like:

1) airlines not understanding what customer service is
2) treating us like cattle
3) charging us for everything above and beyond our tickets - luggage, food, entertainment, booking fees, change fees, slightly better tickets. Soon they'll be charging us for oxygen or something
4) incredibly high ticket prices to begin with
5) flight delays - it's almost seems like an on-time flight is a novelty.

QFT! flew today from dtw to pdx. moo. moo.

Cheesypuff · 06-09-2008, 09:56 AM

i'm all for it...i wanna be the one looking at the screen! BOOBIES!!!

no...but seriously...I just don't know how comfortable i would be to have a person in another room look at me (or wife/girlfriend) yummy parts.

ehh...embolden the terrorist!

mojo · 06-09-2008, 11:29 AM

if i wore aluminum, would i throw sparks?

even better, i'll ask for copies of the xrays and send them to my physician. i'll save a bundle.

gear02 · 06-09-2008, 08:58 PM

Found my new favorite term: Security theater - the facade that we jump through to make us feel "safe"

Example:
http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/06/10/0057202.shtml

Quote:

mytrip notes a CNet blog entry on the recent TSA rule change banning flight to anyone who refuses to produce ID. It's OK if you claim to have lost or forgotten your ID — you undergo a pat-down and hand search of your carry-on bag and you're on your way. The new rule goes into effect June 21. "The change of rules seems to be a pretty obvious case of security theater. Real terrorists do not refuse to show ID. They claim to have lost their ID, or they use a fake. TSA's new rules only protect us from a non-existent breed of terrorists who are unable to lie."

ray · 06-10-2008, 10:58 AM

Meh, the person looking at the X-Rays never see the actual person going through it at any stage of the process. They don't know what I look like, and I don't know what the man behind the closed door looks like.

Yeah, it sucks that our privacy is not a concern anymore, but unfortunately I will still need to fly a few times a year.

Thesifer · 06-10-2008, 05:18 PM

I'm willing to bet that no matter what gwilks says, or anyone else, that it doesn't really make anyone STOP FLYING. If you have a choice.. "Drive to Florida from California, Ride a Bus, or Fly" unless there is some reason you need to drive, IE Moving. You will most likely want to fly.

And will, because its easier.

InfiniteNothing · 06-10-2008, 10:28 PM

You're forgetting an option: don't travel. You can always vacation locally. Probably better for the environment too.

Thesifer · 06-11-2008, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfiniteNothing

You're forgetting an option: don't travel. You can always vacation locally. Probably better for the environment too.

Yeah, and that really does stay true to the meaning of vacations.

VTGreg · 06-11-2008, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfiniteNothing

You're forgetting an option: don't travel. You can always vacation locally. Probably better for the environment too.

Most people take vacations to get away. Depending on where you live you may have more options locally but you can only take so many local vacations before you exhaust the options.

The majority of people will continue to fly because it is easier. Some will choose not to but that will be a small minority. If you're willing to change where you take vacations or drive long distances instead of getting an x-ray screening, all the power to you.

Jeffbx · 06-11-2008, 07:13 AM

I fly almost exclusively for work - MAYBE once every 2-3 years for personal trips, and I bet the same is true for a large percentage of travelers. This is one reason why they can get away with stuff like this - it's a hassle for sure, it's an invasion of privacy, and I'd even go so far as to say it gives a false sense of security. But at the end of the day, I have to get on that airplane because it's part of my job, so I (and many others) really don't have the luxury of boycotting such things.

InfiniteNothing · 06-11-2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTGreg

Most people take vacations to get away. Depending on where you live you may have more options locally but you can only take so many local vacations before you exhaust the options.

The majority of people will continue to fly because it is easier. Some will choose not to but that will be a small minority. If you're willing to change where you take vacations or drive long distances instead of getting an x-ray screening, all the power to you.

Not to brag but within the time it takes to go through security and wait for a plane, there are nearly endless options for the coastal urbanite like me. Heck an entirely different country is ~30 minutes away. Hey, and I hear they are finally building a mag lev train to vegas.

No one really knows how many people will really mind the extra dose of radiation.

Quote:

I fly almost exclusively for work - MAYBE once every 2-3 years for personal trips, and I bet the same is true for a large percentage of travelers. This is one reason why they can get away with stuff like this - it's a hassle for sure, it's an invasion of privacy, and I'd even go so far as to say it gives a false sense of security. But at the end of the day, I have to get on that airplane because it's part of my job, so I (and many others) really don't have the luxury of boycotting such things.

Yeah work sucks. Gotta do what you gotta do. Try and stay under 20 mSv of radiation /year

Recently though we were able to convince a customer to let us remote into their computer over having one of us fly out there. Obviously not always practical.

attgig · 06-12-2008, 10:03 PM

Honestly, I'd rather take the pat down instead of the scanner. When I read that there's some person in a secret room somewhere looking at all the pictures.... it just sounds creepy. a pat down is still going to be public. I'd tell my sig other/fam to take the pat down as well instead of the scan. i only imagine a sick pervert sitting in a room looking at scans while his buddy gets certain type of people in the scanner.
i guess i have no faith in people, but there's just too many sicko's out there...

dsuds · 06-13-2008, 04:50 AM

While I completely HATE the invasion of privacy, I know where the need for this device came from... muslim women. Before you jump on me and call me a racist hear me out. Many muslim women wear heavy wraps and hide their faces. Add this to the fact that there already have been court cases where they have refused "regular" searches. Not because they had anything to hide but simply their religion demands modesty. If I had my choice I wouldn't have a TSA agent grope me either.

The new scanners are simply a way for the TSA to perform a search on these women without touching them. Will it work? Maybe. Will the new scanners be effective in stopping terrorists? NO!! Even if the scanners are 100% effective the terrorists will simply find another way to get guns/knives/explosives onto the airplane.

I go with the philosophy that no amount of security can stop one motivated individual. And that is exactly what we have with the current terrorist situations.

InfiniteNothing · 06-13-2008, 09:37 AM

There's nothing you can hide in a head covering that you can't hide in a T-shirt. As an alternative to a pat down, I imagine they'll find this at least just as objectionable. Personally, I'd put money down betting that terrorists will not try and hijack a plane again. They never seem to hit the same target twice.

I wonder why they don't seal off the cockpit of the planes.

Jeffbx · 06-13-2008, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfiniteNothing

I wonder why they don't seal off the cockpit of the planes.

They are sealed now, at least on all of the flights I've been on recently. IIRC the pilot is also armed.

attgig · 06-13-2008, 11:24 AM

yes. cockpit is always sealed. that's also why don't allow people to wait for the bathroom that's near the cockpit.

InfiniteNothing · 06-13-2008, 01:40 PM

So, why don't they let me take cork screws on board? You can't really hijack a plane anymore. If you're just in it to kill passengers you might as well hijack a bus or snipe people in the park or something. This airline security is turning into paranoia

Markel · 06-13-2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfiniteNothing

So, why don't they let me take cork screws on board?

I know that corkscrews were initially banned, but according to the TSA web site you can now have a corkscrew in your carry-on (or checked) luggage.

Of course, if the corkscrew includes a significant foil cutter, that might be construed as a blade and hence prohibited.

06-07-2008, 08:38 AM	#2
thresher Commander Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: St.Augustine FL. Plymouth Rock is a newbie! Posts: 1,223	Not to justify the other side but seriously, it's just an xray basically and an ugly one at that. It'll help defeat the most basic of smuggling (drugs included) and the fact it's even there is a barricade for bad guys. Sorry, vocabulary is struggling this morning. __________________ Wait a second... you're telling me Sixpac Shakur is a CHICK?

06-07-2008, 11:40 AM	#4
Thesifer Vice Admiral Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oklahoma - Just Recently moved from San Diego Posts: 4,102	I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this, I mean I guess it "invades" privacy, but it's not as if the image is being displayed for all to see. Just a TSA Agent with his Blue Rubber gloves.. __________________ Digital Might Forums "For the creative minds. ( Photography, Art, Poetry, Writing )"

06-07-2008, 03:18 PM	#6
ArkiStan Admiral Join Date: May 2000 Location: Recession Central Posts: 5,757	because keeping my ugly testicles to myself, now that would be letting the terrorists win. __________________ Please keep sigs 25kb or smaller.

06-07-2008, 10:21 PM	#9
renovation Vice Admiral Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: by a lake in michigan Posts: 4,271	if it help protect me while flying im all for it. and if someone wants to a picture of my body they can have it. and in short amount of time this be just the normal to all of us.right now its new so your thinking about.after the first time or two you wont think twice about it. i fly all the time and only maybe 2 or 3 times had to given extra screening and thats no big thing .i have nothing to hide and it just that i was the lucky one to be picked. and my bags 3/4 times when i get them back they have a note in them saying they were checked ( inspected ). get a life 9/11 changed it for all of us. __________________ be careful of what you wish for . you may get a ton of junk e-mail ! smile or f-off

06-08-2008, 12:47 AM	#10
InfiniteNothing Fleet Admiral Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 9,997	That's the worrying part. It will be the norm and then they'll come out with something else and that will be the norm. 9/11 isn't a free pass for invasion of privacy. We all have to die someday. If you die due to terrorism, at least you died free. Lastly, for reasons I already mentioned, it is unlikely to make you safer. Last edited by InfiniteNothing : 06-08-2008 at 01:00 AM.

06-08-2008, 01:25 AM	#12
gear02 Admiral Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 7,223	funny - i would pick other reasons to stop flying...like: 1) airlines not understanding what customer service is 2) treating us like cattle 3) charging us for everything above and beyond our tickets - luggage, food, entertainment, booking fees, change fees, slightly better tickets. Soon they'll be charging us for oxygen or something 4) incredibly high ticket prices to begin with 5) flight delays - it's almost seems like an on-time flight is a novelty.

06-09-2008, 09:56 AM	#14
Cheesypuff Vice Admiral Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Cali, but missing Hong Kong and Texas Posts: 4,714	i'm all for it...i wanna be the one looking at the screen! BOOBIES!!! no...but seriously...I just don't know how comfortable i would be to have a person in another room look at me (or wife/girlfriend) yummy parts. ehh...embolden the terrorist! __________________ Life is like toilet paper, long and useful! The stars at night, are big and bright clap 4x deep in the heart of TEXAS!

06-09-2008, 11:29 AM	#15
mojo Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: about 2 min away Posts: 8,063	if i wore aluminum, would i throw sparks? even better, i'll ask for copies of the xrays and send them to my physician. i'll save a bundle. __________________ say "hi" to lumbergh for me Last edited by mojo : 06-09-2008 at 11:34 AM.

06-10-2008, 10:58 AM	#17
ray captain awesome Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,961	Meh, the person looking at the X-Rays never see the actual person going through it at any stage of the process. They don't know what I look like, and I don't know what the man behind the closed door looks like. Yeah, it sucks that our privacy is not a concern anymore, but unfortunately I will still need to fly a few times a year. __________________ new uploader

06-10-2008, 05:18 PM	#18
Thesifer Vice Admiral Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oklahoma - Just Recently moved from San Diego Posts: 4,102	I'm willing to bet that no matter what gwilks says, or anyone else, that it doesn't really make anyone STOP FLYING. If you have a choice.. "Drive to Florida from California, Ride a Bus, or Fly" unless there is some reason you need to drive, IE Moving. You will most likely want to fly. And will, because its easier.

06-10-2008, 10:28 PM	#19
InfiniteNothing Fleet Admiral Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 9,997	You're forgetting an option: don't travel. You can always vacation locally. Probably better for the environment too. Last edited by InfiniteNothing : 06-10-2008 at 10:33 PM.

06-11-2008, 07:13 AM	#22
Jeffbx Fleet Admiral Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Michigan Posts: 9,065	I fly almost exclusively for work - MAYBE once every 2-3 years for personal trips, and I bet the same is true for a large percentage of travelers. This is one reason why they can get away with stuff like this - it's a hassle for sure, it's an invasion of privacy, and I'd even go so far as to say it gives a false sense of security. But at the end of the day, I have to get on that airplane because it's part of my job, so I (and many others) really don't have the luxury of boycotting such things.

06-12-2008, 10:03 PM	#24
attgig Chief of Naval Operations Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: the ghetto's of bawlmo' Posts: 11,481	Honestly, I'd rather take the pat down instead of the scanner. When I read that there's some person in a secret room somewhere looking at all the pictures.... it just sounds creepy. a pat down is still going to be public. I'd tell my sig other/fam to take the pat down as well instead of the scan. i only imagine a sick pervert sitting in a room looking at scans while his buddy gets certain type of people in the scanner. i guess i have no faith in people, but there's just too many sicko's out there... __________________

06-13-2008, 04:50 AM	#25
dsuds Lieutenant Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: wherever you go, there you are Posts: 388	While I completely HATE the invasion of privacy, I know where the need for this device came from... muslim women. Before you jump on me and call me a racist hear me out. Many muslim women wear heavy wraps and hide their faces. Add this to the fact that there already have been court cases where they have refused "regular" searches. Not because they had anything to hide but simply their religion demands modesty. If I had my choice I wouldn't have a TSA agent grope me either. The new scanners are simply a way for the TSA to perform a search on these women without touching them. Will it work? Maybe. Will the new scanners be effective in stopping terrorists? NO!! Even if the scanners are 100% effective the terrorists will simply find another way to get guns/knives/explosives onto the airplane. I go with the philosophy that no amount of security can stop one motivated individual. And that is exactly what we have with the current terrorist situations.

06-13-2008, 09:37 AM	#26
InfiniteNothing Fleet Admiral Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 9,997	There's nothing you can hide in a head covering that you can't hide in a T-shirt. As an alternative to a pat down, I imagine they'll find this at least just as objectionable. Personally, I'd put money down betting that terrorists will not try and hijack a plane again. They never seem to hit the same target twice. I wonder why they don't seal off the cockpit of the planes.

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06-13-2008, 11:24 AM	#28
attgig Chief of Naval Operations Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: the ghetto's of bawlmo' Posts: 11,481	yes. cockpit is always sealed. that's also why don't allow people to wait for the bathroom that's near the cockpit.

06-13-2008, 01:40 PM	#29
InfiniteNothing Fleet Admiral Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 9,997	So, why don't they let me take cork screws on board? You can't really hijack a plane anymore. If you're just in it to kill passengers you might as well hijack a bus or snipe people in the park or something. This airline security is turning into paranoia

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