mechmike0034

http://www.star-telegram.com/ed_wall...y/1134183.html


The article gets better from there, on everything from oil prices to global warming.

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uncledaddy

I agree with the oil and the global warming, but the article seems to be merely saying that domestic manufacturers are fast at producing its vehicles. What the article fails to compare is the quality of the domestic vs. import. I still believe that has a lot to do with what a manufacturer can spend because of the union. I could be mistaken.

Don't get me wrong, though. GM makes my favorite vehicles, the Corvette, Escalade, Suburban, Tahoe, Hummers, and the trucks.

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LPMiller

you imply a larger breach of quality between american cars and others, which just isn't the case. Depending on the model, naturally.

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InfiniteNothing

Out of curiosity, what are both of you basing your quality assessments on? Also, uncledaddy, what are you basing your opinion on union fees being significant and excessive?

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LPMiller

jd power. Some of those american cars have quite the high quality rating. I think most people have a bad experience, and then hate that line forever. You had a crappy ford 20 years ago, well, fords suck, that sort of thing.

For me, I just don't like most of the style choices on american cars for the most part. Plus, Japanese cars just fit short people like me better.

guiseppewv

How about comparing factories worldwide? Or at least N. America, Europe, Japan, and Korea. We aren't competing with ourselves, we are competing with the world.

I know you guys did not write this article but I wonder why they limited the comparison to America.

DarkFury

Ha ha... (that sounded like it was pointed in my direction.)

BTW... please separate hating the MANAGEMENT of one company (for various reasons, including their choices of customer service, commitment to giving their customers what they are asking for, and general common sense that you'd expect from a company) versus the hating of an entire domestic industry.

You can dislike Ford, yet not write off all "American Companies" that build automobiles... just like you can hate HP and still go buy a Dell (instead of running to Apple and saying FU to all "PC" computers. )

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attgig

JD Power by brand:
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...e-#page-anchor

4 stars in initial quality are 4 luxury car makers, and 2 regular car makers.
toyota and mercury.
so, mercury should be considered a high quality car....

of course, most of them look pretty ugly...but still. by quality, mercury is up there.

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uncledaddy

After 20+ years of automotive service, I beg to differ. In that amount of time, you get to know what vehicles a prone to what failures. Normal wear and tear is one thing but the domestics have shown unusual failures over the imports. I could write you a list, but that would be a whole tread in itself. When I speak of quality, I speak of longevity. Everything from drivetrain to paint. The imports have it over the domestics. The imports also have design advantages. What are the advantages? They look better. Except for the Trucks and SUVs.


As mentioned above, 20+ years of automotive service. Also, I don't think I mentioned union fees, (dues), if that's what you mean. Though I do think they can be ridiculous. I think that the manufacturers are limited to what they can put into vehicles because of unions. Compare wages and packages between the big 3 and the imports. The imports have happier employees and can put more money into production because there is no union of which to worry. I developed a bad opinion of unions during the last grocery strike here in California. I had friends who lost a lot during that strike. They paid years of dues, and ended up losing those jobs anyway because they were losing their livelihoods.


Now here is what I am too lazy to research. Is longevity part of the criteria in a JD Study. Or does it mean "Initial Quality" but "Later Junk"?

LPMiller

I....I don't hate ford. I own 2 mazdas, which Ford owns a heavy stake in, and those 2010 fusions look to be world beaters.

LPMiller

After 20 years, I know the same about computers...only I don't. If I went by just what computers I fix, Sony's suck and HP's are great. People don't bring in working cars, and service people have the most colored opinion of anybody, because we mostly only see the broken stuff.

But even so, your 20 years are just personal experience, a small subset of the whole, really.

I just read today, and I'll be futzed if I can find it, an article that show perception of cars versus actual quality ratings. They don't match very well. The perception of Subarus, for example, was a lot lower then the actual reality. And believe you me, Honda can manage to make crap - I replaced the struts in my old 2001 civic 3 times the first year I had the car.

The point is, Ford and GM are a lot closer to the perceived leaders in quality then they ever actually get credit for. Of course, as I always say, perception is 9/10ths of the law.

DarkFury

I wasn't referring to you "hating" Ford.

I was speaking in genralities of those folks who do hate Ford, yet don't hate the whole domestic automobile industry.

mechmike0034

Not faster - more efficiently, meaning fewer man-hours of labor per vehicle built.

You are correct in that the article linked does not address quality issues.

mechmike0034

JD Power's Three-Year Vehicle Dependability Study...

Lexus gets the top ranking there, however, they are not without their problems as well:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C0A9619C8B63


In the repair arena, remember that we both saw 100% of the broken vehicles. I spent much more time wrenching in independent shops than in dealers (my total dealer time consists of 90 days in a Chrysler store and 90 days in a Chevy/Hyundai store) so I saw a good cross-section of broken imports and domestics.

uncledaddy

That's apples and oranges. Though the computer manufacturers build the computers, they don't design and build what's inside. I love HPs, but my HP has an AMD and a Hitachi drive. Now granted some of the domestics will have parts made by foreign companies or even domestic companies, but for the most part, drivetrains are designed and built by the manufacturer. It has gotten better since the manufacturers have gone to corporate engines and trans and you don't have each division with their own engines and such, but comparing your experience with computers to automobiles is not the same.

And yes, some imports will have their problems as mechmike states. Odd that you replaced struts on a Honda 3 times in the first year. Was it a defective run of struts, did you use aftermarket? I don't believe that Honda actually designs and manufactures their own struts, but I'm sure mechmike would have the answer on that.

uncledaddy

Thanks for the links. Look where Land Rover is...that's my primary vehicle now...and I totally agree!

johnnymk

Hardware-wise, a modern vehicle is infintely more complex than a laptop or desktop computer. Take away the processor, memory and motherboard, it is really a simple device. They are manufactured by just dozens of manufacturers, not thousands. Basically, the complexities are the software.

Plus there are computers in today's vehicles which monitor and run engines, transmissions, etc. These are small subcomponents in today's vehicles in relation to the other very complex and expensive hardware.

Many guys who build and diagnose computers have no clue about the complexities of today's or even yeaterday's vehicles, but I have noticed that some mechanics, not many are fairly good at working on computers.

Like you said, apples and oranges.

LPMiller

The struts were a recall item, they just went bad very easily.

And what you are saying isn't really true. While with many laptops, they are just picked designs from a few companies and then a fancy case is slipped on, desktops are designed in a similar, if less complex way from cars. Your HP uses a Hitachi drive; my old Honda used McPherson struts. Sometimes your 'quality' is solely the result of the parts you pick.

And sometimes it's just bad design. Bad solider points, poor heat distribution, out of spec memory or CPU slots, whatever. I'll agree, scale wise they aren't the same, but the general idea that the repair tech sees the broken stuff more often then the good, and that it colors his/her opinion, is still true.



Oh, I'd disagree. 90 percent of any problems I see are hardware related. Any software issues are usually "user induced" ones (spyware, etc), not bad or failed designs.


Oh, I think like any field, you get your mix. I know some mechanics that are full on PC nerds, and some PC nerds that are full on gearheads.

guiseppewv

This really is an apples to oranges comparison. MacPherson Struts are a type of suspension not a brand which is a what a Hitachi is wrt hard drives. It is more like a drive being EIDE vs SCSI.

cheapie

:doh: this is the kind of thread you get when a bunch of computer nerds argue about cars.

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mechmike0034

The supplier/manufacturer relationships are, as a general rule, not quite that cut-and-dried, though it does vary. You see little if any "vertical integration" any more - meaning the automaker not only builds the car but also every nut, bolt, piece of wire, component, etc...

http://themanufacturer.com/us/profil...43cde0427d4ad5


Suppliers build to the vehicle manufacturer's specifications, and design can come from the vehicle manufacturer, the supplier, or both in partnership.

Cheapie can chime in here - he works for a Tier 1 supplier, and this is getting into his territory...

LPMiller

Oh geez, whatever, my point was Honda didn't make the struts, they were off the shelf.

DarkFury

MM34 is a prime example of this...

He's a PC guy and a Gearhead at the same time.

mechmike0034

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uncledaddy

That's pretty much my point when I talk of computers. I should actually be more specific when I mention that the quality that I speak of is primarily drivetrain. Yes, I mentioned paint, but that is because for awhile there GM paint jobs were the worst ever. Like I said, in the shop I was seeing common failures from each manufacturer, not just on a particular model or year but on every model over a number of years. For example, Ford had a series of problems with collapsing valves. The valve seats would literally cave in and the valves would get sucked into the head. I saw this on the 1.9, 2.0, 4.6....Bad metallurgy? A Ford design. Ford automatic transmissions failing at anywhere from 35,000 miles to above 50,000. These where the AOD, A4LD, E4OD and the AOD-E.

Problems with GM. That damn Vortec Spyder injector design has got to be one of the worst next to the cross fire injection IMO.

Chrysler, though not around anymore, K cars. Need I say more.

Okay, I know I'm picking on Ford, but they have been my bread and butter in the shops for a good while. You can always count on a Ford having problems.

Each manufacturer does have areas where they just can't seem to get it right, and the JD studies, from what I understand, are after 3 years. But hell, I run into 15 year old Hondas, Nissans, and Toyotas, that run better on the original drivetrain than many vehicles 10 years newer. From my emissions testing experience, these imports also have better legal passing rates than domestics of the same age.

guiseppewv

Well, you did not do a good job of making it!

guiseppewv

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LPMiller

Oh, I'm well aware of the paint problems GM had. I handled all of GM's satisfaction surveys in '89-91, and people would send in the strips of paint that peeled off their car. I'd post them up in my cubicle, because they were kinda cool. But it wasn't just GM that was happening to, it was anyone making cars in America at the time. GM by far had it worse though, and as I recall it was the paints they were using weren't handling acid rain very well. Toyota corollas had the problem too, which were at the time made side by side with the Geo Prizm.

Of course, that was 20 years ago.

gear02

I don't think people don't buy certain cars because of actual quality - they don't buy because of perceived quality. People have certain preferences that you really can't ignore. Heck look at Ford - Top Gear (and many other car publications) has picked the Ford Mondeo as best car of the year (said it drives like a BMW).

I think what has hurt the American companies is labor cost and bad timing. They bet huge on SUVs and trucks until gas prices skyrocketed and then they had no backup strategy. I also think there are too many brands - who goes around saying they want a Mercury??

uncledaddy

This is what I meant about unions in my first post. Why didn't I just state it that clearly. Duh!