Engine Question

ufcrusher · 02-04-2001, 02:02 AM

Just out of curiousity, what would happen to a car if the engine and the electronics werent grounded? Plus no wire harnesses were actually attached?

Give me stereo or computers and i would know what would happen, but for a car, I have no clue?

KoalaFD · 02-04-2001, 11:30 AM

Here I sit, confused by your question....

What?

lsinteg · 02-05-2001, 12:32 AM

Nothing would happen because you have no power to operate anything. Take the ground off your battery and see what happens.

ufcrusher · 02-05-2001, 02:22 AM

So, you are saying that if the engine wasnt grounded (not the battery, that was grounded) the car shouldnt work? The grounding would most probably have to do with electronics, such as the engine computers and other electronic parts. In terms of actual operation of the engine, it was working, but not properly. I.E. - making weird noises, check engine light coming on, etc.

Well i guess I will find out tomorrow from my mechanic.

Ice-9 · 02-05-2001, 10:53 AM

Quick crash course in electrical engineering:

You can only get current flowing through a difference in voltages. You need a ground so that you have a potential drop. Your car has a +12 (active) and a 0 (ground). That way, you can get 12 volts (approx.) to all your systems.

If, say, your battery is grounded but your radio isn't, your radio will not have power, even though your other systems will. Simple as that - there's no potential difference across the terminals, so there's no current. Also, if your ground is somehow connected to +12 V, you'll get other weird problems, because there still won't be a voltage difference across the terminals. If you didn't get most of that (which I probably won't if I read back through it), you should let your mechanic deal with it.

p.s. I'm an ex-EE major who can't even find the short in his own damn car's electrical system, so my advice is HIGHLY suspect.

ufcrusher · 02-05-2001, 03:47 PM

Well apparently from what the mechanic says, their are multiple wire connections that are not properly hooked up, and several areas that are not grounded. Any one of these faulty installations could apparently trip out my cars entire electrical system. (RPM's are at 2000 -3000 when idling! and jump another 500 - 1000 if I turn on anything in the car) Every electronic component that I can physically manipulate (without getting into the engine and toying around with all of that fun) is operational. However, my mechanic is telling me that the RPM's are being caused by the computer being improperly wired and grounded.

As for source flow and impedence, etc. I am aware of all that. I was more or less trying to figure out why I could see no outward signs of all of these difficulies with the exception of the high RPM's and weird noises. I wasnt sure if standard electrical knowledge would easily translate into an isolated system such as the motor. I assumed it would, but I was wondering if anyone knew anythign in particular.

KoalaFD · 02-05-2001, 07:31 PM

Uh....

I'm still confused.
Here's some non-impedance, caveman thinking for you:

If it idles too high, turn the idle screw and lower it.
If it's not that, check your ECU.
If it's not that, hit it with a big, big wrench.

hapoo · 02-05-2001, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KoalaFD

If it's not that, hit it with a big, big wrench.

Thats the universal technique. It works for everything!!

sbp · 02-06-2001, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hapoo

Quote:

Originally posted by KoalaFD

If it's not that, hit it with a big, big wrench.

Thats the universal technique. It works for everything!!

Especially for hapoo's head!!

katmai · 02-06-2001, 11:01 PM

I've had to re-wire lots of sports cars, mostly British, and I can tell you most mechanics FEAR wiring problems!

Usually they do relate to faulty grounds and connections being bad or weak. Do a search sometime for "Lucas Curse" and you'll find a mind boggling array of what wiring/electrics can do. I had a friend who's Lotus Europa burned up in his garage, after sitting all winter, for no apparent reason. Jaguars are known for things like the wipers coming on when the radio is turned off and the horn honking on making a left turn!

I dunno what else to say but GET A PROFESSIONAL!!!

Crazyace · 02-20-2001, 07:30 PM

Ahh, hate to admit it... hhee.. But serious.. The electrical thing.. Thier is an easier way to understand the concept..

You need 3 things to have electricity. Source, path, and load. If either one of the 3 are not present, you do not create electron flow. Electricity is the flow of electrons.. Negative electrons are stimulated by the positive charge of a source. The electrons goto the positive source due to the natural attraction (boys like girls, electrons like protons).. If thier is not path, the electrons cannot reach the protons, therefore, no electron flow is created because thier was no reason for them to travel in the first place. The only reason they travel is to reach the protons. Electricity is the energy created by electron flow.

Nanotech9 · 02-21-2001, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crazyace
...goto the positive source due to the natural attraction (boys like girls, electrons like protons...

maybe thats my problem... girls aren't attracted to boys. I'm gonna have to break the laws of nature to get a girlfriend!

~~theHNIC~~ · 02-21-2001, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by katmai
and the horn honking on making a left turn!

My Cadillac done that...so i unhooked the horn...all is well now...

Since i cant use my horn i use my finger and throw rocks at people...

[Edited by gotmilk on 02-21-2001 at 11:44 AM]

~~theHNIC~~ · 02-21-2001, 12:41 PM

OOPS

[Edited by gotmilk on 02-21-2001 at 11:44 AM]

Ice-9 · 02-21-2001, 06:11 PM

Wow, what a good idea. Whoever owned my car before me disconnected the horn when he put in the Momo wheel, so I should really start keeping rocks in the door bin to throw at people. I'd probably run out pretty fast, though, considering how people drive in Berkeley.

02-05-2001, 10:53 AM	#5
Ice-9 Lieutenant Commander Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Berkeley, CA, USA Posts: 832	Quick crash course in electrical engineering: You can only get current flowing through a difference in voltages. You need a ground so that you have a potential drop. Your car has a +12 (active) and a 0 (ground). That way, you can get 12 volts (approx.) to all your systems. If, say, your battery is grounded but your radio isn't, your radio will not have power, even though your other systems will. Simple as that - there's no potential difference across the terminals, so there's no current. Also, if your ground is somehow connected to +12 V, you'll get other weird problems, because there still won't be a voltage difference across the terminals. If you didn't get most of that (which I probably won't if I read back through it), you should let your mechanic deal with it. p.s. I'm an ex-EE major who can't even find the short in his own damn car's electrical system, so my advice is HIGHLY suspect. __________________ Porsche. There is no substitute. Ice-9 B-Works Productions http://www.bworksproductions.com

02-06-2001, 11:01 PM	#10
katmai Ensign Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Anchorage, AK Posts: 25	I've had to re-wire lots of sports cars, mostly British, and I can tell you most mechanics FEAR wiring problems! Usually they do relate to faulty grounds and connections being bad or weak. Do a search sometime for "Lucas Curse" and you'll find a mind boggling array of what wiring/electrics can do. I had a friend who's Lotus Europa burned up in his garage, after sitting all winter, for no apparent reason. Jaguars are known for things like the wipers coming on when the radio is turned off and the horn honking on making a left turn! I dunno what else to say but GET A PROFESSIONAL!!! __________________ CHANGE THAT CATBOX!!!!

02-20-2001, 07:30 PM	#11
Crazyace Lieutenant Junior Grade Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Connecticut Posts: 111	ASE Mechanic/Teacher in the house Ahh, hate to admit it... hhee.. But serious.. The electrical thing.. Thier is an easier way to understand the concept.. You need 3 things to have electricity. Source, path, and load. If either one of the 3 are not present, you do not create electron flow. Electricity is the flow of electrons.. Negative electrons are stimulated by the positive charge of a source. The electrons goto the positive source due to the natural attraction (boys like girls, electrons like protons).. If thier is not path, the electrons cannot reach the protons, therefore, no electron flow is created because thier was no reason for them to travel in the first place. The only reason they travel is to reach the protons. Electricity is the energy created by electron flow. __________________ CrazyAce Former News Dude Got/Apex?

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02-04-2001, 02:02 AM	#1
ufcrusher Admiral Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Boca Raton, FL: By way of: Poway, CA; Gainesville, Fl; Penn Valley, Pa. Posts: 5,542	Just out of curiousity, what would happen to a car if the engine and the electronics werent grounded? Plus no wire harnesses were actually attached? Give me stereo or computers and i would know what would happen, but for a car, I have no clue?

02-04-2001, 11:30 AM	#2
KoalaFD Lieutenant Junior Grade Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Leon's neighbor Posts: 139	Here I sit, confused by your question.... What?

02-05-2001, 12:32 AM	#3
lsinteg Plebe Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 1	Nothing would happen because you have no power to operate anything. Take the ground off your battery and see what happens.

02-05-2001, 02:22 AM	#4
ufcrusher Admiral Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Boca Raton, FL: By way of: Poway, CA; Gainesville, Fl; Penn Valley, Pa. Posts: 5,542	So, you are saying that if the engine wasnt grounded (not the battery, that was grounded) the car shouldnt work? The grounding would most probably have to do with electronics, such as the engine computers and other electronic parts. In terms of actual operation of the engine, it was working, but not properly. I.E. - making weird noises, check engine light coming on, etc. Well i guess I will find out tomorrow from my mechanic.

02-05-2001, 03:47 PM	#6
ufcrusher Admiral Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Boca Raton, FL: By way of: Poway, CA; Gainesville, Fl; Penn Valley, Pa. Posts: 5,542	Well apparently from what the mechanic says, their are multiple wire connections that are not properly hooked up, and several areas that are not grounded. Any one of these faulty installations could apparently trip out my cars entire electrical system. (RPM's are at 2000 -3000 when idling! and jump another 500 - 1000 if I turn on anything in the car) Every electronic component that I can physically manipulate (without getting into the engine and toying around with all of that fun) is operational. However, my mechanic is telling me that the RPM's are being caused by the computer being improperly wired and grounded. As for source flow and impedence, etc. I am aware of all that. I was more or less trying to figure out why I could see no outward signs of all of these difficulies with the exception of the high RPM's and weird noises. I wasnt sure if standard electrical knowledge would easily translate into an isolated system such as the motor. I assumed it would, but I was wondering if anyone knew anythign in particular.

02-05-2001, 07:31 PM	#7
KoalaFD Lieutenant Junior Grade Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Leon's neighbor Posts: 139	Uh.... I'm still confused. Here's some non-impedance, caveman thinking for you: If it idles too high, turn the idle screw and lower it. If it's not that, check your ECU. If it's not that, hit it with a big, big wrench.

02-21-2001, 12:41 PM	#14
~~theHNIC~~ Banned Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Behind you Posts: 1,802	OOPS [Edited by gotmilk on 02-21-2001 at 11:44 AM]

02-21-2001, 06:11 PM	#15
Ice-9 Lieutenant Commander Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Berkeley, CA, USA Posts: 832	Wow, what a good idea. Whoever owned my car before me disconnected the horn when he put in the Momo wheel, so I should really start keeping rocks in the door bin to throw at people. I'd probably run out pretty fast, though, considering how people drive in Berkeley.

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