brain

DaFunkyUnit

i don't really trust Consumer Reports anymore.

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psycho-

I wouldn't trust them to tell me how a car handles or feels, but I would trust reliability ratings. The reason is becasue it's not a subjective test, but rather statistical analysis based on aggregate owner reporting. The reliability ratings are more scientifically objective.

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Victor

ray

They did survey 675,000 people and came up with their results. From what I've heard, VW is one of the worst offenders when it comes to reliability. Doesn't surprise me that American cars are more reliable than European cars. I wonder what the comparison is between Japanese and American though.

look_ma

This survey is so skewed it makes the fox network look "fair and balanced" for once.

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attgig

that article said 12(asian)-18(american).

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gear02

why is it skewed?

ray

Because they didn't have a large enough sampling. Perhaps they should have found 6.75 million people to survey. That would certainly get the point across.

PrObLy

My '94 fully loaded Regal GS coupe will run forever...much like the old GN's ya still see rolling around with 150k+ miles on 'em.

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psycho-

Hahahah..funny! On the other hand....if a survey is done truly random, 1000 people per model/car is enough to get an error rating of approx .1-3%, which is pretty well representative of actual reliability.

Tommy Boomfiger

the yahoo article is pretty vague, did CR report just buick has better reliability, or american cars in general. if buick ranked higher than bmw, but pontiac, chevy and caddilac all ranked worse id say the report is extremely skewed. personally, i consider most gm cars to be the same brand since many cars share platforms and cars from different nameplates are built in the same factory.

i guess id have to read the actual report to find out what thier survey really says.

InfiniteNothing

I don't see why anyone would distrust consumer reports. They put independent professionals on the job. And their statistical sample size are ample. The best reason to trust them is because they are the only magazine out there that doesn't take adds. They have no pressure to rank their highest ad suppliers higher. Bottom line: for the first time in 25 years American cars are more reliable than European cars but Asian cars are still more reliable.
Here's another article http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/08/pf/a...ex.htm?cnn=yes
BTW: In the consumer article my car beats out the STI, EVO, RX8, 350Z, etc (cars that cost twice as much) in the Sporty Cars category. HAH! It really is a well kept secret. Now if I can only get that bad boy boosted.

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bachviet

And Mercedes ranks below average...

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InfiniteNothing

I thought Mercades has been ranking below average for a while. It's BMW that's the suprise isn't it? (I bet it's the 7 series alone) Or was that sarcastic Eeeking?

DaFunkyUnit

mercedes has been going downhill, especially after the buyout from Chrysler, an American company.

maybe that why American cars are improving and European cars are getting worse. They help us out, we bring 'em down.

InfiniteNothing

Well, from my link, both euro car and American car reliablity went up, ours just went up more. It is interesting that the first article mentiones Volvos, and Jags though.

look_ma

Ok, for this one survey, this is what they found, yes.
In the real world however you must realized they only sampled people that purchased their magazine.



In my opinion this is not too good sampling and or ultra random. Also the article states that it is the individuals own findings and or opinions. ding ding ding 675,000 are not car inclined. And to 675,000 people, what does reliability mean to them? Does this mean that when the user inflicts misuse or abuse it is not supposed to budge?


What exactly is a problem? The users stupidity on how to get a feature to work in a 50,000 dollar luxury vehicle? Your tire got a flat and you had to push the on-star button to get them to come out and put on your spare? And does anyone find it totally alarming that up to 20% of vehicles are supposedly having a problem within the first year? Factories have quality control, and testing sessions on each of their models. End of the line is that this story is bunk, and SKEWED. And not skewed for American or against Foreign, skewed wrong overall.

InfiniteNothing

You are grasping at straws. What's your vendetta?

How would this skew any results. The percentages (ie BMWs break down 10% more ) should stay the same whether you have bad drivers driving both cars or good drivers driving both cars. Even if the percentages change a bit, the correlation should stay the same, BMWs will not suddenly become more reliable than Fords given a better driver of each car.



I've seen the surveys. I was asked to take one infact. They ask very specific questions. They break down their statistics of what broke in the April car report. (Ie, BMW's cooling broke down, or Ford's suspension broke. They aren't asking for opinions (do you think your car is reliable?) they ask for facts (did your engine fail to work). The overall reliability score is a weighted summation. That is, smaller problems (Think dodge neon road noise) are worth less than major components (Transmission).

attgig

just ask Brain. he must've skewed the results!

bachviet

Buy Japanese especially Toyota and problems solve.

InfiniteNothing

Grammar, however, may wane.

Nanotech9

HAHAHAHAHHAHA

ok that was funny.

I've got a '91 BMW sitting in my driveway. Currently it doesnt have a motor in it, because at 200k miles, i decided i wanted to get more power from it.

The only thing wrong with the car is that the oil pan gasket has a crack in it letting air up into the oil lines, causeing a loss of pressure. I could have simply fixed it for a couple hunderd and been on my way.

but no, I'm taking a 200k motor, dropping in new pistons, grinding the cams, putting a 3-angle grind on the original valves, and slapping it all back together. I expect it to run another 200k w/ no problems.

We took the main bearings and the connecting rod bearings, and the cam bearings out... none of them were even worn. Simply amazing, considering i THRASH that car on a daily basis.

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Mpowered

If I'm not mistaken, Daimler Benz bought out Chrysler

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rasetsu

I think the results for BMW were mainly due to the 7 series. MB has been down for a while. I don't know of anyone who didn't have problems with their C or E classes.

InfiniteNothing

A simple would have done Just jump down to the bottom?

psycho-

VW and family (Audi, etc) have been producing horribly unreliable cars too

SnowSurfer

personnaly a few of the euro car companies are owned by american auto makers now. I am not surprised the jag went down because it is owned by ford and looks basically like a modified ford taurus. BMW's are excellent cars but the parts are expensive and if u run it through the deseret going 120 for 100 miles with no coolant, i think the cooling just might break. If you take care of any car it will last longer. Oh and one reason the buicks might seem more reliable is BECAUSE THEY ARE BUILT LIKE TANKS

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LegendKiller

I am also less likely to believe any kind of CR report.


First, I think that there is a reliability bias going on.


For example, my fiance's father was asked to participate in a CR rating. His 2001 Honda Accord had a bad transmission in it at 32k/mi. However, instead of reporting it, he claimed that it shouldn't be reported since Honda gave him a whole new transmission.

ON the flip side, he was quick to point out that american cars are much more likely to have problems. How does he know? Because CR says so.

People have gotten to the point that its automatic to think that the problem with american cars are manufacturers fault, when it could be any type of reason, not just the manufacturer. It has now come down to perception, which cannot be left to the individual in a truly scientific experiment.


Heck, I rmemeber reading an article of a Chevy with 1 MILLION miles on it, same dang engine (more than 1 transmission though).


LK

psycho-

you have shown that you know absolutely nothing about what happened with jaguar.

Jaguar reliability had JD power rankings used to be bottom tier before Ford purchased them. Ford dumped billions into that company

Look where their quality ranking is now.



By the way, this is the same Jaguar who made the XJ8 that killed the European competitors on Car and driver's latest comparison test
Link
And ALMOST beat the LS430

rasetsu

I only skimmed the posts. Must've missed it. My bad. My comment about the C and E classes is still fresh.