LegendKiller

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...mlb/index.html


Can't say I feel sorry for him.

MikeD

The witch hunt continues...

It's funny how Bonds is persecuted, while others are given a pass. For example, why not the same level scrutiny of Giambi? If Bonds were to get in front of the mic and cry a bit, would he be forgiven?

They'll probably chase until they get him on something. Boo hoo...I'm just hoping for another 36 HR's.

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brainsmile

yawn... it's really going after the top figure head...

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LegendKiller

They'll stop the loser before he gets there, thankfully. He doesn't deserve the spot.

MikeD

Greatest...Of...All...Time.

VTGreg

To be fair, Giambi did tell the truth during the grand jury testimony which is why it was revealed to the public that he was using steriods. I don't know if Bonds lied in front of the grand jury or not, but if he did he has no one to blame for this but himself. As for tax evasion, I think there has been talk about this for a while now.

All the legal crap aside, I agree he is the best ever and I hope he can stay healthy enough to break Aaron's record.

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nickel

i am surprised you brought Giambi into this. Giambi has admitted steriod use. Bonds hasn't, has he?
i don't see the correlation. Bonds is more in line with McGuire or Sosa.

great article here:
The Truth
About Barry Bonds and Steroids
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...313/index.html

after reading that i don't see how Bonds can be called "the greatest" Mike, i really don't.

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MikeD

That article was tinged with a *bit* of one-sidedness. Hell, I've posted similar articles that were overly lenient towards Bonds...it's journalism. Take what you want from it.

It IS a witch hunt at this point. This has been hashed out in the press over and over and over and over. If he is guilty of tax evasion, by all means nail him. That does nothing, however, to diminish his skills as a player.

My point is the same that it's always been: why so much focus on Bonds, and not on other players? Was he the only one he used PED's? More than Sosa, McGwire, and Raffy? What about the names that Grimsley gave up? Once those are revealed, will they be drug through the mud as Bonds has?

Bonds is a 500/500 guy (HR/SB). PED's or not, he would have likely achieved that number. ONLY MAN TO DO EVER DO IT. He's put up historic numbers in an era where pitching is much, much better than it was years ago. 7x MVP. Look at the stats...he's The Greatest.

LegendKiller

Yeah, he was on the track to do that in 1997 before he started the stupidity. He was older, he was on the decline, and his trajectory wasn't nearly as impressive.

His "skills" were above average, but not superstar.

By all means, nail everybody else along with this pile of trash, but right now he's the biggest target, it's his fault.

nickel

i don't think he would have, but we'll never know.

Maarchk

How can anyone take any records seriously in MLB of the past 10-20 years. People admitted to cheating or said that almost everyone did. It seems so odd where this sport allows cheating, but frowns upon it. I think they should kick bonds out of mlb as well as any other consistent user and erase there records. In the olympics and track and field, most doping bands go retroactively and i dont see why baseball shouldn't be the same way.
Bonds may have been on a good track, but he decided to cheat and he should end up with pete rose sitting outside the hall of fame.

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LegendKiller

See, this is where MLB goes wrong.

1. Pete Rose gambles on some games, not his games, and not games he can influence. The blanket ban was apparently put into place after Congress investigated and almost smacked them with monopoly, they said they would clean up their act and Congress gave them a free ride. Keep in mind that Pete did *NOT* water the game down or fundamentally change how it was played. He violated a rule intended to comply and keep monopolistic practices in place. He has been villified and shunned.

2. Bonds, after having a less than spectacular career where he was solid but not uber, gets jealous that other players were juicing, making him look and feel bad. As a result he decides that he can "one up" them. He, and others, funamentally changed the way the game was played. He watered it down and turned it into a freakshow of who could juice up the most and fastest. When compared to players of older vintage and in spite of MikeD's protestations about pitching, those players were *GOOD* without PEDs.

All he proves to people is that if you want to get ahead, you cheat. Pure skill has nothing to do with the game and that the past good players are worth nothing since they can easily be trumped, not by skill, but by chemistry.

All in, he and his ilk have ruined the game. His records and thsoe of any other proven juiced player should be tossed out. They should be removed from the Hall of Fame and should be booted from current rosters if they are still juicing.

MikeD

This is laughable...


It was never shown that Rose didn't bet on Reds games. He easily could have, and that is wrong.


Again, if he bet on games that he had influence over, he definitely watered down the game. Let's be honest here...


Are you kidding? Look at his stats. Even early in his career he put up ridiculous numbers. Does the fact that he won the MVP in '90, '92, and '93 mean anything? How about 8 Gold Gloves, every year from '90-'98? 33 HR/52 SB in 1990, 46/29 in 1993. He was one of the most dominant players of that era...to say he was only "solid" means that one doesn't know much about baseball.


This is hearsay from a book. This book is suddenly gospel? If a book came out that said the direct opposite, that Bonds never juiced, would you treat those authors the same? C'mon...


Look, I've admitted that there's a 99% chance Bonds juiced. No one is arguing that here. I'm being realistic on that count; it would be great if others could look at things objectively and do the same. Treat others like Bonds is being treated...that's all I'm saying.


No chance...no chance that I'll ever believe the talent level was the same back then. It's the same in every sport. You might have one or two exceptions, but to say that Ruth and even Aaron faced the same type of pitching, night in and night out, that Bonds has is simply ridiculous. It's really not even worth arguing over, it's so obvious.[/quote]

Bonds' stats:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...?playerId=1785

VTGreg

Performance enhancing drugs go back further than the past 10-20 years. I find it funny that everyone focuses so much on steriods but don't put nearly the same emphasis on the use of amphetamines, which has been rampant in baseball for much longer.

Cubsfan

I wouldn't say that he can't influence games. Especially when you've been in the big leagues that long, you've got friends. And you never know if he could convince his friends to do something to influence a game. I think part of the reason for the ban is that any player may have the ability to influence any game (through others).

Maarchk

thats true. I'm just more looking at the bonds and other current leaguers issues. It would be nice of baseball to work backwards and clean up all the messes but if they could start with cleaning up one mess, i'd be impressed.


So you are countering one person's opinion with your own? So not really a valid point.

Considering the guy who won in '91 is Terry Pendleton? I dont even know who that is. And Cal Ripken, Kevin Michell, and Dennis Eckersly won which tells me MVP means you are a good player but not required to be amazing. You just have to make your team look good. Steve Nash is the mvp of the MBA two years running but people wont tell you he is "one of the most dominant players of that era..." it just doesn't translate like that.


What does that mean? Look the other way and keep the juice coming?

But was the talent level equal between pitchers and hitters? I think the talent base was level back then, and today, what do pitchers have to counteract peds? If i could take steroids and go against mortal men for 5 years, I bet i could put up some sweet numbers too.
I think Bonds was a fine player, but at this point, i think that all offenders need to be kicked out of the sport and all questionable records need to be erased... If not, well, i'll never really believe any of them.

MikeD

If you don't know who Terry Pendleton is, that says something about your knowledge of baseball. Sorry, but it's true.

As a 7x MVP winner, I think it's a safe bet to say that translates to Bonds being a dominant player. Average players don't win the award 7 times.



That is not even close to what I was saying. Re-read it again.


Justifies my point even more. Sounds to me like you're saying that the hitters back then weren't as good as the hitters today; that is, if you consider that pitchers back then weren't as good either (seems logical).


I've got no problems with Bonds getting kicked out for breaking the rules; my point is that it's a witchhunt, and they should pursue all players equally. No chance Bonds is the only cheater. Besides, part of what the Feds are after him for is tax evasion.

I've posted this more times than I can count: I'm not arguing that Bonds used PED's. My point is two-fold: pursue everyone equally; don't go after one player more than another. And, despite the PED's, I still believe he's the greatest hitter ever. I think if you look at his career, what he's done, and for how long he's done it...it's an open and shut case. JMO, but I think the facts bear it out.

cadetevon

I think that the players union should step up and make things happen. They have control over who gets tested, how often, for which drugs and the punishments to match.

Until the union grows some, then the game will remain tainted.

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zippyjuan

The only thing they got Al Capone on was tax evasion. But that does not mean anything one way or another about Bonds. He is the biggest target. Since he is at the pinacle of hitting, it makes more sense to go after him IF he was using illegal subastances knowingly because if his name is in the record books because of it, the record book itself and baseball is in question. If someone cheats but is still mediocre compared to other players, then he is having less of an impact on the game. But I definately agree- have a solid policy that includes regular testing and have penalties apply to everyone the same reguardless of who they are. If Bonds lied, he should be punished for perjury. Surprised nobody is clammoring to have Pujols tested the way he is hitting the ball out of the park this year.

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TofuNinja

They are only going after Bonds because they have nothing on AJ Pierzynski

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baseballbob

and don't expect the players union to do much-the players have to support it and they don't appear to be ready to make significant changes YET

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guiseppewv

A witch hunt is:

An investigation carried out ostensibly to uncover subversive activities but actually used to harass and undermine those with differing views.

This is not a witch hunt. BB is guilty of using steroids. It may not have been proven in a court of law *yet* but it soon will be.

MikeD

Hey, we live in the land of "innocent until proven guilty". Can't have it both ways, partner...

zero2dash

Whoa whoa whoa there buddy.
Don't correlate the two and act like it's apples to apples.
Several of the latest years that he won MVP are debatable because there were several 20+ win pitchers up for the award as well and Bonds was voted over the pitchers simply because homeruns are more impressive to see than strikeouts and wins. If you ask me, Bonds was lucky to have won the last few because there were more deserving players in the league. Had he not been hitting homeruns like he was, I guarantee you that he wouldn't have won the last few. Guarantee. He's a good player but he's far from the greatest.

As for him being busted, juicing, and how it relates to other players either juicing/being busted or not - that's not the matter at hand. There's nothing on either McGwire or Sosa to prove whether they did or not, and lumping them into this argument is really getting stale. Just because they had record HR seasons recently doesn't necessarily mean they did anything, but by the same token, maybe they did. The fact of the matter is that there's no proof either way and all this speculation is getting ridiculous. Let both of them rest; they don't play anymore for one thing, and for another thing, they're both not endangering the long standing record books like Bonds is.

As far as I'm concerned, Bonds is full of himself and he's also rude to anyone (including his fans), and he's obviously been caught and there are circumstances surrounding his career that (apparently) prove that he's used steroids at one time or another (if not several times), and he's being busted on it. It's not a witch hunt if there's proof. This isn't a "where there's smoke, there's fire" campaign. His trainer's been detained for lying (last I heard), and the prosecution is mounting against Bonds. This is all a formality of when he's busted, but it's gonna happen.

MikeD

This thread is amazing...simply amazing. I don't know what to say.

VTGreg

Not even sure where to begin with this post.

1) Starting pitchers don't win MVPs because they only play once every 5 games. Many of the voters will not vote for pitchers because of this. Yes, it's debatable, but it is typically debatable who wins these awards.

2) There is no more proof, which has been verified, that Bonds juiced than there is proof that McGuire or Sosa juiced. The only "proof" out there that Bonds juiced is leaked grand jury testimony that is sealed. That hardly constitutes proof. Sure, Bonds is associated with individuals that are part of the investigation, but that is not proof that he used steriods.

3) Bonds demeanor and personality should have no bearing on this. I understand that he will receive less slack, but it has gotten ridiculous.

4) The question, who is the greatest baseball player of all time, will always be highly debatable because you have players from different time periods where different technology existed among other things. You have the same discussion in other sports as well. Bonds is the greatest player of all time according to some of the experts. If he isn't the greatest he is at least in the conversation and is well above that level of very good players.

I with MikeD on this, even if he is a cowboys fan. There are players that have tested positive (Palmeiro) that have had a huge impact on baseball and its record book, but he isn't under anywhere near the scrutiny that Bonds is. Bonds has never failed a steriods test and until he does or their is testimony that is released that links him to steriod use, this is all conjecture. In the meantime, I think everyone would be much better off going after those that have been proven to use PEDs and to continue to better testing so their is less cheating in the major sports leagues.

MikeD

It's the Hokie blood that we share...I mean, someone has to be a 'Skins fan. I just don't hold it against you.

zero2dash

Agreed. That's another reason. But (again) its also because home runs are more impressive to watch than strikeouts. Clemens won't get fireworks for strikeouts, but Bonds will for a home run.


Agreed. I never said "there is x proof of why Bonds is guilty of steroid use". If there weren't enough questions about his performance, and moreso - these "unanswered questions" about him that are going on behind closed doors...then no one would be talking about him anymore than they already do when he makes a snide remark about the news media or other players. But they've been harping on "Bonds = steroids" for how long now? Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm sick of hearing about it. If you've got dirt on the guy, then come out with it and prosecute him in whatever manner that baseball allows. If you don't have dirt, then leave him the alone and go cover something else in the news that's more important.

You can try to corroborate his homerun total # leap over such a short time as a temporary "use", but that's speculation.


Agreed. He's a prick, ok. I'm not saying that just because he is, then "he's guilty" (or that anyone else should think that either). I mainly bring up his attitude as a reason why I don't like him. By that token - I don't say "he's guilty" because I don't like him, but I think he's guilty because a) there's too many things about his career over the last few years that don't make sense (including how huge he's gotten seemingly overnight) and b) there's too many questions that leave a lot of doubt to his claims of innocence. But nevertheless...innocent until proven guilty, by all means.


Agreed. He's in the top 10 and he's one of the most productive hitters (in all aspects, not only averages) in the game today and ever. With all these doubts looming though - I can't say the guy's the best. Even if he walks away/fades into the night and no one ever finds out whether he 'did' or 'didn't'...even then I still can't call him "greatest" because there's question about some of his stats.


I think Palmeiro has long been finished not only in his career of playing baseball (on any level), but in the public eye as well. He'll never get into the HOF now, no question. And what you say about Bonds is true, sure. He's never failed a test. But...let's play devil's advocate. How many has he been given? Over what period of time? What span? What was tested? What sort of sample? (ie blood or urine?)

Bonds never failed a test, sure. Doesn't mean he didn't use something that was (at the time) undetectable. Wasn't there a huge outcry not too long ago about his trainer saying "this is undetectable"...?

I saw someone with a suggestion a week ago about this whole steroids issue, and while it's a radical approach, well I think it would work. The guy said that instead of testing for steroids, give the players lie detector tests. Ask all the questions you want. You fail the lie detector test, you're out, period. Let's see - we've got products out there that (apparently) foil a steroid test, but (AFAIK) there's no way to beat a lie detector, right? (There's many urban myths as to "how you can", but if you believe in the skills of Jamie and Adam from Mythbusters, then, you CAN'T beat a lie detector, 'cause they tried it.) Again - that's a radical idea, and I'm sure it would anger people if they fail and get kicked out of their league, but it's a lot more failsafe than a steroid test at this point. Who knows...

VTGreg

While the lie detector test would be a good idea and could possibly curb HGH use, it will never happen because the players union wouldn't allow it.

I think the bigger issue here is the use of HGH and the fact that there isn't any way to test for it now. If any of these athletes were smart, they wouldn't use steriods but instead would use HGH.

MikeD

Indictment not coming down today...yet the witch hunt continues.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2524831

Got my Giants / Nats tix for next Wednesday's game! Taking the kids. Got seats in LF, I'll be sure to get some pics to post here for you guys.