09-03-2008, 01:33 AM
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Admiral
  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: living with my mommy
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[Spoiler Alert!!] Dark Knight Plot Question
So I saw the movie for the second time today (first time at IMax for the wow-factor, second time on a regular screen for the critical appraisal opportunity). I'm still confused about why Batman saves Harvey Dent instead of Rachel. There are theories expressed by some that the Joker tricked Batman by telling him the opposite locations.
On the other hand, my theory is that Batman had intentionally sacrificed Rachel and saved Harvey Dent instead for the greater good. Batman didn't want Gotham to lose its "white knight" figure and lose hope. After all, he had always been torn by the hero/vigilante dichotomy concerning his identity and if Harvey Dent survives, Batman would no longer be necessary for Gotham and he could quit his "night job," which is also what he would have to do to get Rachel back. Only in this case, Rachel is gone, so it adds to the tragic fate of Batman. But then how did Gary Oldman's character know to go to the other location? In the movie Batman actually tells Gary Oldman that he's going for Rachel. If my theory is right, both of them should have arrived at Harvey Dent's location.... What are your opinons?
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Last edited by ArkiStan : 09-03-2008 at 01:36 AM. |
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09-03-2008, 01:49 AM
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Admiral
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 7,178
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The joker switched them because he knew Batman would go for the girl. Batman says he was going for Rachel and Gary goes to the other location. In fact Rachel was assuming Batman was coming for her, and the look of horror after she realized Batman was at the other location was one of the most painful faces in the history of movies.
Did the Joker tell Batman which one had Rachel and which had Harvey? Or did he just say they were at opposites?
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09-03-2008, 02:45 AM
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Optimus Prime
Join Date: May 2002
Location: in bed
Posts: 4,093
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I had heard this question raised before I went to see it my second time, so I looked for this detail. Yes, Joker did tell Batman which person was at which location, and Batman does specifically say he's going after Rachel, while Gordon specifically says he's going after "Harvey." It's apparent in the movie that Joker switched the two locations; whether he knew who Batman would go for is unclear. Also, whether or not Batman knew that Joker had switched them is unclear.
I believe Batman failed to foresee Joker's switch and intended to go after Rachel; if he had suspicions about it, he would have shared that information with Gordon when they parted, but he doesn't. Both Gordon and Batman part ways believing they are rescuing who they say they're rescuing (Batman - Rachel, Gordon - Dent). When Batman says he's "going after Rachel" and Gordon indicates he's going to save "Harvey," there isn't any indication that they're "in on the joke," so to speak; no nudging, no eye-winking, no knowing glances.
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09-03-2008, 12:18 PM
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Chief of Naval Operations
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: the ghetto's of bawlmo'
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yeap. I agree with joker lying. that was my natural assumption
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09-03-2008, 02:28 PM
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Admiral
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Boca Raton, FL: By way of: Poway, CA; Gainesville, Fl; Penn Valley, Pa.
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The Joker knew how much Rachel meant to Batman...consequently, he intentionally lied and told Batman that Dent's location was where Rachel was hidden. Clearly, Batman would get somewhere much faster than LT. Gordon since (to paraphrase another Joker) Batman has all of the wonderful toys. Consequently, whoever Gordon went for was more likely to die.
Remember, the first instance in the movie where the two meet is at Wayne's party for Dent and Batman rescues Rachel. You must remember that although the Joker is a homicidal maniac he is incredibly brilliant. The Joker would have known that Rachel meant something to Batman and Dent and by killing her he gets a double impact. Hope that answers all the speculation.
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09-03-2008, 04:03 PM
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Rear Admiral Upper Half
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma - Just Recently moved from San Diego
Posts: 3,724
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Joker switched them because if he didn't then there would have been no Two-Face and that would have completely ruined the Batman Canon!
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09-03-2008, 05:40 PM
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Fleet Admiral
Join Date: Jun 2001
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the joker switched them and told their locations. he lied about dent's (rachel's) location, but batman found it because he's psychic.
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09-03-2008, 06:51 PM
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Admiral
Join Date: May 2000
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Ok, I see how it makes sense that the Joker switched the locations when telling them to Batman. But towards the end it seemed like the movie emphasized that Batman wanted Harvey Dent to live for the sake of Gotham. It was this that made me wonder if Batman had actually went to save Dent... I think these ambiguities and open-interpretations are what separates this movie from the usual super hero flick. Good movies respect the viewers' intelligence and trust them to make their own conclusions.
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09-04-2008, 08:05 AM
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Chief of Naval Operations
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: the ghetto's of bawlmo'
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Quote:
But if Dent died, he died a hero, and it's all good. He was going on and on about it because he didn't want Dent's reputation ruined and therefore, gotham's hope ruined... (they must not know about Jesus  ) |
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09-04-2008, 11:41 AM
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Admiral
Join Date: May 2000
Location: living with my mommy
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Quote:
I wouldn't be surprised though if there were people who believe jusus wore a mask and black cape.  |
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09-04-2008, 11:56 AM
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Rear Admiral Upper Half
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma - Just Recently moved from San Diego
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Quote:
Or maybe they live in a world with a better grasp on reality then our own, strange. |
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09-04-2008, 12:04 PM
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Chief of Naval Operations
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: the ghetto's of bawlmo'
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Quote:
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09-04-2008, 12:30 PM
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Secretary of the Navy
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Oohh oohh ohh... THE RED ONE!!!!
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09-04-2008, 05:47 PM
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Rear Admiral Lower Half
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Where the east meets the west.
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The Joker is pretty messed up. And he more or less perpetually lies to make it interesting. He "thrives on chaos 'tiger'". So my guess is he mixed them on purpose to add the element of surprise and confusion. There is an amazing comic where heroe's try and go inside the brain of the joker to see how he sees things and it's quite disturbing and awesome. They get to the middle and there is a nice old couple watching tv and just enjoying their day. So at their very core, 'everyone is good'. In another comic they also reduce the 'irrational half' of the Joker's brain so that he can actually comprehend what he is doing. The joker is shocked and saddened by all the people he has harmed and killed... and then he goes back to normal and felt this funny tingle inside him... and he goes back to evil planning.
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