raimin

jeb bush involved now
shouldn't he like his own word, should be monitoring other issues.
i think its ridiculous issue, aby way too pc

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/10/St...CAA_as_F.shtml

[quote/]Bush blasts NCAA as FSU plans response

The governor says the decision to punish schools with Native American mascots is insulting.

By BRIAN LANDMAN and JONI JAMES
Published August 10, 2005

TALLAHASSEE - Controversy over the Florida State University mascot intensified Tuesday as Gov. Jeb Bush condemned a new NCAA policy and university officials planned to meet in emergency session to discuss their next move.

"How politically correct can we get?" Bush told reporters Tuesday morning before a meeting of the state Cabinet. "To me, the folks that make these decisions need to get out more often."

Bush said new NCAA policies, aimed at schools using American Indian mascots, nicknames or imagery considered hostile and abusive, were offensive to the Seminole Indian Tribe of Florida, which "supports traditions of FSU."

"I think they insult those people by telling them, "No. No. You're not smart enough to understand this,' " Bush said. " "You should be feeling really horrible about it.' It's ridiculous."

FSU's board of trustees will meet in an emergency session today to discuss the issue and its formal, written response to the NCAA.

FSU president T.K. Wetherell has said he also will pursue all legal avenues and told the Associated Press that prominent attorney Barry Richard, who successfully represented George W. Bush in the 2000 presidential recount in Florida, has agreed to represent FSU.

Although FSU has the blessing of the Seminole Tribe of Florida, the NCAA Executive Committee, a group of university presidents, said FSU was one of 18 schools that, effective Feb. 1, will not be able to host NCAA championship events. If their teams are in the postseason, they must remove or cover the "hostile and abusive" images.

Wetherell received a three-page letter Tuesday afternoon from NCAA president Myles Brand, outlining the school's possible recourse, including an appeal to the executive committee.

FSU and the other schools, including Illinois and Utah, also can seek a legislative amendment to override or modify the new rules. That also would have to receive the executive committee's approval.

It's still unclear on what grounds FSU would sue, but Wetherell has called the measures "arbitrary and capricious," terminology that suggests an abuse of discretion on the NCAA's part.

The NCAA does control its postseason, as it showed when it banned South Carolina and Mississippi schools from hosting any predetermined NCAA championship events in response to the Confederate battle flag.

It hasn't faced a lawsuit to challenge that ruling, according to the NCAA, but the mascot issue carries tougher penalties.

Student-athletes can't have the "hostile and abusive" symbols on their uniforms during postseason NCAA play and, beginning Aug. 1, 2008, neither can cheerleaders, dance team members nor band members.

Even with powerful political allies, FSU's task to preserve its traditions does not appear easy.

"Over the last four years, we've received a variety of complaints from fans, coaches, officials, student-athletes, Native Americans and non-Native Americans that mascots on a war path or the way they're dancing (for example) perpetuates a negative stereotype that marginalizes this group of people," said Charlotte Westerhaus, the NCAA's vice president for diversity and inclusion.

In the context of civil rights cases, the NCAA has come up with a working definition of "hostile and abusive" that she said is "broad and a high standard" that shows the NCAA supports diversity and inclusion of every person.

Westerhaus has been busy since Friday's announcement of the new policy, fielding calls and letters and e-mails from supporters of FSU.

She said the FSU mascot, Chief Osceola, brought on much of the criticism from American Indians outside the Sunshine State.

Chief Osceola, a student dressed in traditional clothing and wearing war paint, rides the horse Renegade into the stadium and hurls a flaming spear into the ground to excite the players and fans before football games.

"They think (that image portrays) savagery," Westerhaus said.

Interestingly, the new NCAA measures don't currently affect Division I-A football, but the measure would affect basketball and other sports. The NCAA doesn't control bowl games or league championship games, although it would like the Bowl Championship Series to follow suit.

BCS coordinator Kevin Weiberg told USA Today that the commissioners of the 11 major conferences and Notre Dame athletic director Kevin White will "review" the mascot issue during BCS meetings Sept. 19-20 in Chicago.

"It seems to me this is a question for all the bowl games, not just those that are part of the BCS," Weiberg said.

Rick Catlett, president of the Gator Bowl, said he foresees the Football Bowl Association addressing the issue in January, its next meeting, but can't imagine change.

"From the Gator Bowl perspective, we think it's absolutely absurd, and we would never ask an institution to change its marks or logos to play in our game," he said.

Westerhaus said the NCAA will "continue to monitor" the situation.

Bush, like Wetherell and others, insists the NCAA should be monitoring other issues.

"They should be worried about graduation rates among college athletes," Bush said. "Maybe if they had some suggestions on that that universities could apply and implement, they could be doing a service to all of us."
[/quote]

ialsohaveadream

This story is hilarious. First of all, the team name is Seminoles, not Savages or some other patently offensive term. It's similar to getting upset if a team named itself the Philadelphia Americans, or the Mexico City Mexicans.

Second, the Seminole Indians long ago gave their approval for FSU's mascot and war chant. Does the NCAA get to decide that the Seminole tribe SHOULD be offended by the mascot (which, by the way, is someone dressed in tribal dress, riding a white horse and carrying a flaming spear)?

Third, FSU sucks. Go Canes.

And finally, even though I disagree with 95% of Bush's politics, Jeb knocked this one out of the park (even though Jeb himself should be focusing on more pressing issues):

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raimin

and they should ban stanford's mascot!!!


It's a tree!!!, i am against cutting down trees...trees have feelings as well

DarkFury

Heh... so much for the "tomahawk chop". I guess they gonna have to come up with some other annoying gesture.

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MikeD

See you on November 5th in Blacksburg, baby...

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ialsohaveadream

Mike, I think our fantasy football league might be the ****-talkingest (I made that word up) league ever.

Hey, maybe when we come to Blacksburg, Ron Mexico's brother can get into the game...if he's not to busy playing bartender to 14 year old girls. "Everybody who knows me knows how I get down...by getting girls drunk after watching a Mary Kate and Ashley Olson movie!"

nickel

*when PC goes too far*

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DarkFury

I sense a strong wind whipping coming to Virgina... Fly your flags... AND TAKE COVER!!!!

gear02

I honestly have no problems with this, other than the fact that the NCAA has no backbone. Seminoles might not be offensive, but the mascot is.

I do think that the biggest offender is the Washington Redskins. There's no way in hell that can be honorable.

MikeD

OK, left myself open for that one. But that's cool...I mean, do we need even need him? Last I recall, we were laying the wood to you in your own backyard. Oh BTW, clinched the ACC title in that game. Oh BTW, clinched a BCS berth in that game.

In case you still don't remember, this might jog your memory...



Man, I can't wait for the FFL to start. Gonna be awesome...

ialsohaveadream

Again, the mascot is a man in war paint and a headdress on a white horse with a flaming spear. He's a proud warrior, not generally something that comes with a bad connotation in this country.

cheapie

why is it offensive? can anyone really explain it? or is it just a knee-jerk reaction?

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eSDee

so what do the mascots look like?

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ialsohaveadream

From what I've heard, Chief Osceola (the mascot) has war paint based on actual Seminole tribe tradition.

bachviet

The NCAA should leave the schools and their mascots alone.

BTW the NCAA can't sanction the bowl games but March Madness will be played with logos taped up.

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ialsohaveadream

By the way, I'd say that Notre Dame's mascot should be banned from the bowls, because it creates the image that all Irishmen are leprechauns who fight, when they're actually a bunch of drunks who fight.

Of course, no need to ban Notre Dame's mascot from the bowls when the Irish won't get there anyway. It's like banning Pauly Shore from an A-list Hollywood party....just no need.

zippyjuan

Who is next? The Oregon State Beavers? Mascots are chosen to inspire- not demean.

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gear02

Let me split up my argument into two, one about whether certain mascots are offensive to native americans and another about specific cases like the FSU Seminoles.

First, just because you don't find it offensive to yourself doesn't mean that it can be offensive to others. I've heard this argument on the local sports radio and I find it funny that a non-native american can decide what's offensive to native americans. You know, it's just like calling Chinese people ch***s. I'm betting many people don't think it's offensive, but it is (heck it got censored by G|A). I myself can't say that I find certain mascots offensive, but I have read reactions from many native americans and I conclude that it is indeed offensive.

Second, there's a very, very fine line between honoring a tribe and making fun of them. Take the Seminole mascot for example. If the mascot stands on the sidelines in a solemn way, I can understand how it would be an honorable gesture. However, if he was running around throwing pies at people, stealing the other team's pom poms, shouting obscenities (like most mascots do), then it would not be.

I know we cannot please everyone. Some people will find some mascots/team names offensive. However if we're dealing with race, then I believe we have to be extra sensitive. Sure, it may sound that PC has gone amok, but if you need reminders recall that the n-word and many other racial epithets were considered normal language. Only a certain political correctness has removed them from our daily vocabulary and I have to say I think we were for the better. Does this mean that along with native american names we need to look at the celtics, fighting irish? Maybe. I just don't know.

In terms of specific cases, I'll have to admit that the Florida State Seminoles is one of the iffier cases. I do think their mascot and how the whole school portrays native american themes is more honorable than most places. I know that the Florida Seminole tribe is ok with FSU's use and portrayal of the Seminole tribe, but I've also heard that other Seminole tribes outside of Florida have a few issues. But in large FSU has a leg to stand on when challenging the NCAA that they have an offensive mascot and team name.

I don't know about many of the smaller schools who have native american names and mascots, but I do know that the three biggest offenders are the Washington Redskins, Chicago Blackhawks, and the Cleveland Indians. All three have a mascot that is a caricature of a native american that's almost mocking in nature. I challenge anyone to convince me otherwise.


I'm betting it was a blanket ban and that some schools will get exemptions. FSU does have a decent case.


I have to agree on this one. If there's one organization/corporation in the world that gets almost every decision wrong it's the NCAA. From the Jeremy Bloom decision to the decision about bowl games v. playoff (claiming that it would cut into exam and class time and then approving the addition of a 14th game) to this. If the NCAA was a for-profit corporation (and not that they aren't) they would have declared bankruptcy 15 times over.

cheapie

i disagree with your last statement. they are not unprofitable, just stupid.

gear02

yeah...I guess I should have said that if they were accountable for their actions they (the people who make decisions) would have been fired long ago.

VTGreg

Are you referring to their logo or thier mascot, because FSU's logo is a spear with feathers which could be considered offensive. The Redskins, Blackhawks and Indians have logos that are caricatures of native americans, but their mascots are not caricatures.

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gear02

I guess I'm referring to their logos. The NCAA rule is not just for mascots, but nicknames as well so these examples apply (although they're not in the NCAA).

Airencracken

This whole idea of mascot censoring is doubleplusungood.

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Yossarian

nvm, misread

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Itsme

Yes, and the NCAA has sent a letter to all the countries that border the Indian Ocean telling them they have to find a new name for that Ocean.

DarkFury

Well actually, the NCAA is referring to "Native Americans". True Indians are in India.

Blame Christopher Columbus on that one.

nickel

has anyone read where they've asked any Native Americans if they are offended by having their name associated with athletes?

ialsohaveadream

The Florida tribe gave their blessing long ago, and the Oklahoma Seminoles do, too.

GracieBayb

exactly! give me a break.