sunrisetech

I'm thinking of studying to take the LSAT and enter law school. Why? Because it would enhance my career tremendously and then I could hopefully help people. I'm in a period of deep contemplation whether I should do this or not. A good friend who is a lawyer is encouraging me to do it.

ialsohaveadream

Ok....is there a question here? Or just sharing?

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sunrisetech

Sorry...this is my first time starting a thread here.

I was wondering if anyone else had thought of and then decided to go to law school after being in the work force for awhile... and if so how did it work out for you?

brainsmile

Well why do YOU want to be a lawyer? Because someone told you? If so you're perfect

I think that if you have a burning passion for the law or if you have a mission to do so then go for it. I've known too many people who do something because they are pressured to do so just to quit in midstream or after they are done. I have a friend who went to law school just to finish and open up a pizza joint.

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sunrisetech

That's a good question brainsmile. But yes my friend whom I saw go through law school then become an attorney is encouraging me to do it. And for some reason it actually gets me excited about going back to school and getting a chance to change my career focus. For some reason I really like helping people. It's a curse, I think. But yes since my lawyer friend is encouraging me it actually gives me more confidence to believe I can do it

LegendKiller

In one word...NO!

brainsmile

not a good enough reason in my book.

zippyjuan

Do YOU want it? If so, try for it. It will take a very large commitment of time and effort. Take the test and see how you do and what you think.

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speedracer120

May I suggest you read the first chapter of Law School Confidential before you even consider taking the LSATs.

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ufcrusher

First off, currently it is the worst market for attorneys in California EVER. There are more attorneys who are out of work then ever before. I know plenty of people who have been fully licensed for years and still have not been able to get any work. In 2001, following the .com bust, many of the larger firms who had grown enormously to support the burgeoning tech fields either went completely under or cut a large number of younger associates. This meant that suddenly there was a glut of associates who had 2, 3, or more years of experience with debt up to their eyeballs and no job.

Suddenly, all of these attorneys were willing to take the same entry level positions that the new first year/bar passers were willing to take and FOR THE SAME MONEY! Given that choice MOST firms took the more experienced choice.

Even the old standby's of legal temp agencies had too many attorneys to be even willing to keep your listing. In 2001, I was listed at 3 temp agencies and had 2 that told me even though I more than met their requirements, they werent going to bother listing me as they had too many well qualified attornies.

Fast forward to present....the job market is slowly picking up in California but is still very slow. You now have not only all of those people who have been trudging along since then, plus 4 years of bar passers since then. These attorneys will have different types of experience ranging from full positions for periods of time, contract attorney positions, law clerk positions, and then temp agency job listings.

Yes, thats right....the market still has yet to absorb all of the attorneys who were displaced during the bust. Since then, San Diegos largest firm has gone under, others have undergone restructuring, and lots of other negative impacts have occured.

Secondly, general economics lesson. When you have a surplus of a commodity the value of that commodity goes way down. When I entered law school in 98, the market was still growing. You could expect to get at least $70K plus as a starting position. Of course, you were in debt to nearly that amount from law school, but given that you were going to make that back in a few years....well it wasnt too bad. With all of the unemployed attorneys, there are plenty of jobs that arent paying anywhere near what they used to. For example, I will use a sample of 20 attorneys that I personally know graduated and passed the bar. Out of that 20, 13 of them went out of state to where they were from. 2 had offers of $100,000+, 5 had offers of $65k, 3 were $50k, 1 was $44k, and the remainging 2 I never heard final numbers. Of the 7 that remained in California, 1 had an offer of $70k supposedly. When she started, it turned out to be only $50k and she was told to take it or leave it. 3 had offers of $44-50k...the others have either hung up their own shingle and are barely eeking by or have been unemployed this entire time. Most of these people have $80k+ in debt just from lawschool!

So yes, IF you are lucky enough to get a job, you will be paid ALOT less than you expect. There are a few very special exceptions that all hinge on your ability to take and pass the patent bar and have either an EE, CE, PE, or Biotech degree. IF you fall into this special subclass and fulfill all the special requirements you should be able to find a job that pays well. There are always offers for $125k for low experience, EE, Patent Bar, Attorneys. (I specialized in Intellectual Property matters, but since I dont have an engineering degree, I can only look at the window....I would need to go get another degree to get in.)

Third, unless you are planning on doing public interest law and make less than dirt, forget about helping people. MOST people going to law school sit there and say that they would like to either make money while HELPING others. Reality and your dream dont mix. How are you going to help someone by doing Family Law? How would you help someone by doing business law? Criminal law? Property? Estate planning? Intellectual Property? Indian law? Federal Income Taxation? I think you get my point.

This means, you have to re-evaluate WHY YOU want to go to law school. There is nothing wrong with going to school because you want to advance yourself. Nor is there anything wrong with saying you want to go to make money.... people might not like this one, but its honest.

Your friend who is an attorney went through school when? Graduated when? Passed the california bar? What is your background? If your friend never faced the California bar, he has no idea what it is. If he graduated a long time ago, the legal community has completely changed. Many older attorneys live in their own world and dont realize that its no longer a guaranteed job making lots of money. Your background....certain jobs will obviously translate better into a post law school background but some dont help you at all.

To summarize:
1. Law school is hell. You go through 3 years of hell during school, only to graduate to start 3 months of hell while preparing for the bar, leading to 3 days of ultimate hell taking the bar, only to wait 3 months for your results.

I know of a large amount of people, including many second career individuals, who failed out.

2. Job market - Finally beginning to slowly come back after a 4 year drought. Unfortunately, you have 6+ years of people fighting for those same few jobs. They can pay you less and treat you worse, which is saying something, since there are 100s of other people who would give their left lung for the job.

3. Prestige/Class rank IS extremely important. I had a few different people ask me what you call a doctor who graduated from the lowest ranked medical program in the world. Obviously...if he is a Doctor, you call him Doctor. Their point was simply that no matter what school you went to, if you graduated and pass the test you have the same degree.

As these were all successful professionals who said this to me, I can only hazard that this is another one of those changes that has occurred since they went to school. Now, most major firms want a "Top Tier" law school and someone who was in the top 10% or higher of their class. Some even point blank say Law Review only and/or lower ranked individuals need not apply.

It doesnt matter that you may know the law better than the other guy and scored much higher than him on the bar. (In CA you only find out you passed, no scores are given out unless you failed) The fact that he went to Harvard trumps everything else. Unfortunate, but the truth.

4. Do what interests you and makes you happy. Recognize the fact that first year associates up to even fourth year associates are lucky to get home to bed a few times a week. There are plenty of ways to make more money without putting yourself through this.

5. Good luck with your choice. I made mine many years ago and have at times really questioned if I made the right one. I love the law....I dont like the job market....I hate the negative perception that people have of lawyers.

If you have any other questions, ask away. If I have time, I will respond.

Sorry for the long response, but its honest.

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brainsmile

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sunrisetech

Wow. Thanks ufcrusher for the excellent advice. You definately gave a lot to think about.

My friend Jennifer has law in her blood I guess. Her dad was a lawyer and she told me her Mom went to law school when she was 50. Her brother is a lawyer too. As a single mom of a young child she made it through law school here in San Diego in 2 years. She went immediately into the public defenders office. Yeah I saw her go through heck. But now with 15 years of experience she gets job offers from around the country. She currently lives out of state but will be in town this week for a job interview.

I was just discussing where I'm at in my career right now and I'm thinking some post education would be beneficial. I've heard similar plights from people getting MBA's.

Again, ufcrusher, thank you. You have written what I couldn't find on google.

gear02

You know UFC, you could...you know...move out of california

But great post! I just wish someone would do that for MBAs...but it's too late now

brainsmile

gear did you get your MBA and aren't using it now?

sunrisetech

Yes I'd be curious to know too. I could re-title the thread Law School vs. MBA. Because today that's been on my mind that at least I should get a Masters degree to move forward.

I understand that for the younger folk who have no work experience, graduation can suck because the jobs aren't out there. I have lots of experience in business administration along with a BS. To move forward and really make more money an advanced degree seems necessary to me. Unless of course I come up with a really great business idea and get investors....

LegendKiller

People complain that an MBA didn't do anything for them. This is the case for the following reasons.


1. Didn't have enough job experience to begin with.

2. Didn't concentrate on a good topic.

3. Didn't get into a good school.

4. Didn't do well.

People need to have enough job experience in their concentrated field when exiting grad school to get a better job or nice raise. Furthermore, they need to get into a decent school, MBA is about name and connections. Lastly, you need to do very well.

If you get an MBA in HR, then you will not do much with it. Get it in Org Design or finance to go consulting, but then you need a good program to get into a good firm. Always concentrate in something.

ufcrusher

Moving is nice and simple when you are single. Unfortunately it becomes much more complicated when you are married. Suddenly its not just your job/possibilities, but also your spouses job, family and opinion.

GracieBayb

good luck sunrise on your decision! i recently made a difficult decision to apply to law school and ended up with a full 3-year scholarship, so i say, if you are seriously considering it you should get it a try. just take the LSAT and see what your options are from there.

ufcrusher

To what school? The only reason I ask is if its not an ABA approved school, you are wasting your time/money.

gear02

Actually I'm starting to get my MBA right now. I'm in Durham to start my program at Duke for the next two years.

I thought it would be really interesting to see something like what UFC posted. But of course my comment was partially in jest as I don't really regret it right now.

GracieBayb

Whittier SOL in Costa Mesa. Its ABA accredited. Dude, I wouldn't even waste my time applying to a school that wasn't approved.

sunrisetech

Bottom line for me is this. Which will prove more valueable/profitable for me 5 years from now? Come home at night and watch TV or use that time to get an advanced degree....

I remember when I graduated with my Bachelor's degree thinking "I NEVER want to return to school again". College was rough especially the senior year when my Mom passed away unexpectedly. But now it seems with my experience and my contacts that an advanced degree would help me land a good position where I can stay in San Diego and live comfortably. Thanks again everyone for your excellent advice.