Kevster

This is an article from PCGamer and it discusses two games at the opposite ends of the spectrum of this debate - WoW and EvE. As a disclaimer, I play EvE but the author talks a little too much into the criminal behavior of some players in EvE in my opinion.

This is scanned in JPEG format, so you'll have read the article from on the magazine images.

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I personally have played other quest-based grinding-type MMOs and I found them rather boring after a while, especially at the higher levels. With more free will there can be an additional griefing element that comes into play though.

Any opinions on this article?

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I think over again
My small adventures, my fears.
The small ones that seemed so big,
For all the vital things I had to get and to reach.

And yet there is only one great thing, the only thing:

To live to see the great day that dawns,
And the light that fills the world.

-old Inuit song

Thesifer

So the question is.. Is the game cool? .. It sounds alright.. but All the games sound alright when they are promoting them in mags.. atleast to me .. Im looking for something new to try though.

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wung

it does sound interesting ... and i would try it.

though i wonder, for those players who don't "feel special" ... how long will they stay in the game before quitting or starting a new char? (and how will that affect the game?)

ski

The author should come to our WoW server (Stormrage) and see there are several points that disprove his notions.

Everyone on my server knows who Deathsoul and Midnight are (the top-ranked in PvP) and even some of the other high ranking people.

Leaders of the top guilds are famous, as they get a lot of the cool gear from conquering bosses in raids.

Craftsmen that have rare recipes are famous. Everyone knows who Elsington, Veev, and Nebshar are.



I would have agreed with his points in the article 3-4 months ago, but things have changed since then, all for the better.

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And closer...

Kevster

I'm not trying to say one is better than the other, but what would be different about WoW if there was more free-will in it? Like if particular clans could fight for and control territory? What do people like more? PvE or PvP? Do you like more risk or less risk?

ski

The problem with most servers on WoW is that the Alliance outnumbers Horde 3:1.

The problem with capturing smaller towns/cities is that it disrupts gameplay for people of lower levels on the opposite faction. If Alliance captures all small Horde towns, where are the lower level Horde going to go? Where are they going to explore? It would make for an unfair experience in WoW -- not to mention people will just make characters on the "winning team".

Thesifer

Final Fantasy had an interesting way of working it, but they didnt have PvP. I think all of the MMO's out right now need help in one way or another, Im still waiting for the perfect game I'll tell you when I find the one that is it in my opinion atleast. I know no game will ever be perfect most likely, but It cant hurt to dream. EvE sounds like it might keep my interest for a month or two, So I might try it. Who knows. Best Buy will decide my fate.

Kevster

If you are going to try and find EvE in the store good luck. I think they are selling it online only now because of distributor problems. You can download the whole thing from their servers though. They just did a huge upgrade to the tutorial, so it will help explain the game's complexity a bit better. You can try a free trial from the site too. If you are interested PM me with your email and I'll send you a free 14-day buddy trial access key.

www.eve-online.com

Freelance Superhero

linky no worky for me.

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Maarchk

Link worked for me.
I am downloading it now so i may write you tomorrow and check it out Kevster.

I think the article has some points. I played city of heroes, and it just kind got boring. Even after geting up to high levels. I would just go on missions, or hunt down a giant octopus that appeared once a day. I just got tired of it and i didn't feel like the game was really doing much for me. I met a few cool cats on their and i keep in touch with them now that i have left the game. But i am debating wow or something else. I think i'll try eve cause i would dig being able to leave my maachk, so to speak, and having a more acted upon environent.

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mcs328

Hmmm...I can see how on a WoW server it gets boring when it's saturated with High levels in a PvE environement. Blizzard would need to add more content and items to keep it interesting. Yes the raids are fun and hopefully you get high level alliance or horde to kick you out.

I'm thinking about going on a PvP server myself because it makes it more risky and real. I propose whenever one side just completely dominates a town that Blizzard brings in a town event. Like all the low levels pray to some god and summon an infernal or 5 to help them reclaim their town. If the invaders are good they get to control the town but it gives the natives a way to fight the uber invaders who can afford to camp and kill the noob players and kill the low level NPCs that spawn back in the town. Imagine a bunch of 60's just camping at Goldshire and you have a few 60 Alliance who can't hope to win. You pray to some god and summon some Elementals to help you reclaim the town.

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Thesifer

Is the PvP System good? I've been reading that you don't really seem to move around in the conventional sense, so is there skill inolved with the system or is it all just who has the bigger math computation scores?

Kevster

The way EVE handles it is that each sector and region has a security rating ranging from 1.0 (ultra safe) to 0.0 (completely lawless). Each player has a security rating, and if you attack people you take a security hit. You can improve your security rating by killing Non-Player-Character (NPC) pirates, as well as just wait over time and it will eventually improve by .1 per month. Just for example, I have a security rating of 2.5 because I have spent a bit of time blowing up some serious NPC pirates. This is a PvE component of EVE and you can make a lot of money in bounties and loot that way too. There are quite a few people that make their living in Piracy, and they usually have negative security ratings ranging anywhere from -.01 to -9.9.

You can technically attack anyone anywhere, but it could have drastic consequences if you attack someone in a system that has a security rating of 0.5 - 1.0. A police force called CONCORD will show up within 2 seconds of an 'act of aggression' and blow you up and leave you in your escape pod. You also take a security hit for that act of agression. If you attack someone in a 0.1-0.4 system, you get a security hit, but CONCORD will not show up. If you try to kill anyone outside a station or jumpgate in any system ranging from 0.1-1.0, there are sentry guns that have a very long range and they will turn your ship into scrap metal in a few seconds.

In 0.0 space, it is completely lawless. Each system and region (there are over 10,000 systems grouped into 100+ regions in EVE) has different resources and challenges, and different corporations and alliances control (or try to control) different regions. This also impacts a lot on the game economy as well - there are certain minerals that are required for building just about anything that are found only in 0.0 space, just as there are certain minerals only found in 0.1-0.4 and 0.3-0.7 sectors. Common minerals are found everywhere, but in more abundance in higher security areas. With each different security level system there is an increase/decrease of risk associated with being in there, but the potential rewards greatly increase in the lower security systems. This is only the tip of the iceberg in decribing the game and ecomony dynamics of EVE, and I must say CCP has done a very good job creating a universe where you can pretty much do anything you want in a single shard universe. At peak times, there can be around 12,000 people on the server and around 5,000 at low times.

I was fighting in 0.0 just last night and my corp was making things pretty difficult for a particular alliance - we had a few hit-and-fade style engagements with them and blew up 3 battleships and 5 cruisers of theirs with no losses to our forces. Then my leader got a little greedy and we got bottled up in a cul-de-sac of systems. They camped a choke point with about 20-30 ships and put up warp bubbles to block our escape. We ended up calling in a favor with another corp that was at war with this alliance and the force got attacked from behind, then we rolled in from the front and only 2 of their ships escaped. That made for a little excitement, that's for sure.

EDIT: Sorry for the long post, I didn't mean to start talking about EvE so much, but I wanted to talk about what people look for in MMOs. How much freedom to people want these days? I've played other games as well which were PvE mostly. I will agree it did get boring until there were content increases, then it got boring again when I got through that new content.

Thesifer

Well what I want to know.. is how the movement is.. Like do you have to try and flank someone when you are fighting or is it more like "Attack here." "Fire" .. "Hit" ==== Your Turn. "Attack here." "Fire" .. "Miss - Bad Roll" ..

Or what?

Kevster

Your point of view with your ship is always in the 3rd person in an 'omniscient' type of view. Movement is mouse based, in 3 dimensions, and you can select an object/ship, approach it, keep it at a certain distance, or orbit it at a certain distance. You can vary your speed, though most people keep theirs at full throttle and you can add different modules to your ships like Afterburner units or Microwarpdrives. You can also just select a direction and double-click with the mouse to start heading in that direction. All fighting is in real-time and you have to activate your weapons after you lock on your target. That can be missiles, laser turrets, hybrid plasma turrets, projectile turrets or omnidirectional short-range smartbomb energy weapons. You can also launch combat drones and set them on your target as well.

Here's one of the many videos people have done on EVE, but this is a good overall trailer for the latest game expansion (expansions are free in EVE): http://www.eve-files.com/media/corp/...%20Trailer.wmv

Justa warning, this is a little big, though it does show the new Dreadnaught class of ships now coming out.

Thesifer

So far, I have been playing and havent even gotten through the complete tutorial yet. It seems pretty cool though. Hopefully I figure more of it out I am still having trouble with the who manuevering and changing my view thing.. as it sometimes seems a bit cumbersome. I am probably just missing something.

yippiekiyeh

Kevster is really good at this game... I'm still a total n00b in my crusier...

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Kevster

No I'm not that good, really. I am surprised by the response of people wanting to try it though. I didn't start this thread as an EvE recruitment thread. I guess it kind of happened as I started explaining it though. If anyone wants a free 14-day key to give it a try, let me know and I can help you get started. Like some people are now finding out, EvE is a very complex game with many ways to make money instead of the usual going out and killing things for loot. It is also a huge place where everyone plays in the same universe (no seperate servers, instances or shards), and it has over 10,000 systems (of which I have visited maybe 800-900 since I started playing).

wung

i'm still playing this game ... are you guys?

Pemolis

The main concept in Eve is that you'll have a great character based solely on the amount of time you spend IN Eve.

There is no way you are going to fly one of the mega capital ships within a year. You need some odd Billion Skillpoints. Don't expect to fly a titan anytime soon, you really can't Tweak your character like you can in other games (its basically impossible). There are ways to speed up skills, but again, what you fly and what you do depends on how long of a commitment you make to this game (You'll get some really Crazy Stuff after 9 or so months, but it takes 9 or so months to get there). This is a SLOW game. As long as you can accept that.. you'll have fun.

On a brighter note, I'm about to start my Eve Subscription soon.

Presently, Eve has a few Oneups on Wow. For one, Eve is just 1 Server. There is no need to cross over 100 different servers, or to tell you friend to get on this server, or buy them a ticket so they can join the server (none of that stuff). Its just login, and go.

I believe the best nickname for Eve would be this "The Excel Spreadsheet". There is literally, a few Hundred Thousand Items in the game, easy. You never look the same (can have/own as many ships as you want). You can pretty much do whatever you want. The things in each of these MMOG's usually focus on items. With eve though, the focus is Money.

Money makes Eve Go Round. You need the cash to buy the ships, the upgrades, the junkers, pods, insurance (Oh lord the Insurance), etc. Eve has a Huge amount of skills, but its less Twitch based. The skill system relies solely on your characters intelligence (base stat), and time. Thats it. You could logon, click a skill to learn, and log off. When you log backon, the skill will still be learning, or finished. One of the cooler things about a skillsystem like this is that it allows you to learn even when the server is down, or when you are away on a trip somewhere. This is probably the only game which I can take a 21 day vacation, and not fall behind At All. With wow.... its all leveling, then high level raiding. Its Everquest basically (not to knock everquest, I played it for a few years).

Eve's basically for adults (strange how I say that). There are alot of skills, alot of items, alot of space, alot of missions, and alot of goals that you can go towards. I'll say this, Eve is a little less based on Killing the Uber Boss and Getting into Elite Guilds. A small guild (now I am talking like 3 or 4 people) can be sucessful in Eve (they'll probably fight against some pirates, but thats normal). Alliances Actually Mean More in Eve Rather than WOW's Version (I alliance with guild, put me on loot rotation, we PK people). Eve's a bit more about Control. What I mean to say is that Eve is a bit more based on Reality, or at least how we would percieve that reality if it was in space.


Anyway, I'll give you guys a tip. If you want to get out of your ugly frigate really REALLY quickly (I mean get out of it the same day), Make sure you get Frigate 4 Trained Before you even Leave the character building screen. To train to Frigate 3, takes about 8 days, to train to Frigate 4, takes 22 days. You can bypass that time constraint (and the constraint that blocks you from getting alot of new ships) by starting whatever character you want and focus on getting the max level of Frigate Flying that you can from the getgo. I believe you have to go down the leadership path. You'll be gimped on MANY other skills, but you will be able to instantly fly any other ship from the get go (this is a boon cause the starter ship isn't very good).

For Example: I bought a Tristan on Day 2, a Cargo Freighter day 4, a 2nd tristan (blew my first one up) day 6, gave a ship away day 7, bought a shuttle to shop around for A Cruiser (forget the name), day 11. After 14 days, I had about 5 ships owned (had 2 others to joyride in). Most took Frigate 4 to fly.

You maybe gimped on your other skills, but if you went though and selected others, you would have just had a list of level 1 skills (which don't help). If you want them back, just buy the book. The book takes somewhere around 30 to 40 minutes to read, after that, you'll be level 1 in the skill.


Its better to get a better ship, than spread your initial skills out to touch a little bit of everything. Cause you can just BUY the book on it. (note: those books can be expensive from 10k to 1 mil for beginner stuff).

Sorry for the sloppy layout of this, but tired ya know.

Thesifer

Thought I would bring this post back as I just recently started playing EvE Online again. They have come out with some expansions since I left, and things seem to be going along pretty well.

According to the Devs they are currently working on a 2 million dollar graphics upgrade for the game, and they are always working on "Ambulation" or actually getting out of your ship (On Space Stations to start out with) Which if it's anything like the rest of the game, should be done pretty well.

Just figured I would give an update for anyone wishing to play that is tired of WoW or the other MMO They might be playing.

Fair Warning, EvE Is not the easiest MMO to learn right away, but once you get the hang of things, it's pretty easy to get better at things.

yippiekiyeh

It is definitely a slower paced game, when you're starting out, I found it interesting, but to get yourself to a point where it would be "fun" does take a long while...

Kevster

FYI I'm still playing EvE as well. Not as much as I used to before little Annarchy showed up, but I still get some time in. Life out in 0.0 has been getting interesting as the fight for control of the different constellations and regions has been pretty intense. One of the things I like is how the biggest, baddest and most expensive ship around, the Titan, can be taken out by a coordinated team of smaller ships. The balance of different ship types, ship speed and sizes, weapon types, electronic warfare (and counter ECM) is very good in this game.

I can't wait for the graphics upgrade.

Pemolis

Eve and WoW are two distinct games. WoW was built based on the experiences of its predecessors (EQ, DAOC, UO, etc). It took the best of all, and made it into WoW. Which is a linear game, scripted storylines, and raid based content. Eve on the otherhand, took a completely different approach. They decided to put 80% of the game into the players hands. Instead of Raiding NPC's to get there loot, you raid player territories and try to take there space.

The difference between Eve's Raid Content and WOW's raid content, is that the player actually has something to lose/gain if they lose/win. If a Eve Raider (corporation) succeeds in taking over an area of space from other players.. they TAKE OVER the space. Meaning that everything in there, they can claim as theirs. In easier terms.. if Super Mario (you) defeat Bowser (the enemy), you Essentially GET Bowsers Castle, Area's, property.. and you are now the new Bowser (meaning people look at you, and start gunning for you cause you have what they want... power).

Power in Eve is dictated by wealth, property, and size of your corporation/alliance. In WoW.. power is dictated by leadership and loot. The scope of each game is different in such a way that they can't be measured together. Eve's PVP system is what people consider "hardcore". Meaning if you get your ship blown up.. its BLOWN UP. You don't respawn your ship, you have to go BUY/Build a new one. To put it in perspective. If WoW Functioned Like Eve.. Then when a Tier 6 Guy with Equipment which took him 9 months of 6 day a week Raiding to collect, all of the sudden lost it ALL cause he was killed in 1 pvp combat... people would quit.

This is how Eve Functions. Now to Eve's benefit, There is no such thing as a "BOUND" item. Everythings readily and freely traded. So basically your tier 6 loot, you can sell it to others. So you do not have to raid in order to have the biggest and best stuff in Eve... you can pretty much buy it, or in some respects.. Build it yourself. The main negatives of the game are actually quite different. What makes a person quit wow is normally bordom, time spent, and repeated raiding/repetitiveness. What makes a person quit eve is the lost of a Massive Transport (loss of millions), loss of a ship (could be worth billions), or fear (of losing some million dollar ship). Griefings quite a bit more prevelant in Eve also, since the ENTIRE game is PVP. There is no safespots in space (if you dock, your fine, but anywhere else, your fair game). There are controls to the game though so this isn't a gankfest.

Eve is decidingly more difficult than other MMO's for this one reason..


You have to make your own goal.


The developers did not put in a Endgame to the game. There is no "Final Quest", no "Last Book", or a "Final Dungeon". Most people blindly play a game with the expectation to run into such a instance.. This doesn't exist in Eve.

And people freak out because of it. There is no guidance, nor a direction to go in. Eve's about as close to a life MMO as there is, because there is no "direction". You make a choice.. and go do it.

You have no artificial walls in Eve. If you want.. you can fly in 1 direction forever and ever. There is no ocean, no impassible mountain..

Just freedom.

And most cannot handle that.


Does the average person want free choice in a MMO... the casual, average player (which makes up about 2/3's of mmo gameplayers)... really don't. There is a lack of escape when you have to start making decisions on what to do (one of the reasons we come to MMO's is to not make a decision). Thats why many people don't like to lead groups... People.. don't like more than 3 to 4 choices....

Oh, you can reach me at Phoenix Jones in Eve if you just want to chat.

Thesifer

So anyone but me and Kevster still playing this ?

Kevster

I think it's just you, me and Pemolis.

For anyone that is curious or wants to chat in EvE, I have two characters that I split what little time I have right now on (and do very different activities with): Augustus Var and Sylandro.

Thesifer

I have you added on both names, but I haven't seen you on in your "little time" since I started up again. On the plus side, my Destroyer the "Battlestar Galactica" is pretty Pimp. Especially with all of my Level 5 Gunnery / Level 5 Missiles Training.

Maarchk

Sigh.. How big is it to install? How much is it a month? How much time do you guys devote to it?
I'm debating picking up something i can roll around and enjoy.. but i'm torn between WOW and EVE or some other game... I don't know how consistent I'll be on them and what works best on a lap top.. When i'm on the road, i have 4 hours on my laptop to try and fall asleep each night and I wouldn't mind it playing some games...
Thoughts?

Thesifer

Well WoW will suck you in like doing crack or heroin, and you won't really be able to do much casually. I play EvE because all skill training happens even if you are offline. They train in real time. And then when I login I run a few missions for Agents and work on my ships. Theres a lot more to do that I haven't got into yet, I'm just slowly building to it.

Kevster can probably tell you more, as he has played a lot longer then I have, and done a LOT more.

It's 14.95 a month if you pay monthly, but it gets cheaper the longer you pay for.. I want to say 11.95 was the cheapest but I could be wrong there. They also have ways you can spend in game money to buy time cards from other players as well.

And Eve is 1.187 Gigabytes

clutchy

i'm contemplating an exodus from WoW, i've been totally addicted to it for 2 years and quit two months before the last expansion came out. I've come back to play a little but it doesn't feel the same and i'm not sure i want to continue.

i had some pretty decent online chums who still play but i guess i'm just not into it much anymore.


Eve sounds interesting maybe i'll check it out... WoW is up to 9 gigs or so now...


to answer Kevster's three year old question... yes i want more freedom to do whatever iwant in a game and that's pretty stinking difficult to get. I'm tired of the children whining and i'm looking for a mature game although i expect there is that kinda stuff everywhere. WoW is just taking too much of my time and it was grating on the marriage.

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