Crazyace

I think everyone knew it was only going to be a matter of time that someone was going to fully support the Pentium4, and NVIDIA has thrown the first stone. This is great news for Intel. I just hope the support contiues.

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CrazyAce
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paulc

Did you see the PhotoShop 6.0.1 patch available for download? It's supposed to make some filters up to 70% faster than before on a P4. I'll need to borrow a copy of PS6 from work to see how it does on an Athlon. Yes I do mean borrow, just to test. I don't use PS6 at all at work and at home I use PSP7.

http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/8946.htm

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DARTH

In my personal experience testing both released and yet to be released products from both, I have to say ..DO NOT BUY INTEL....Why you ask?

1. AMD are clock for clock faster
2. AMD chips are cheaper
3. DDR platform is cheaper then RDRAM Platform
4. Socket 423 will be phased out soon
5. There are not as many motherboard solution for Intel
6. P4 clock throttling in desktop systems is ridiculous and hinders performance dropping core clock to half operating speed if CPU is under full load for too long

7.Intel has yet to deliver any P4 1.7GHz to the retail channel as there are shortages occurring
8. Overclocked P4 1.8GHz performed worse then an Athlon 1.33MHz at default. That is just pathetic
9. The first nVidia Motherboard chipset will support DDR and the ATHLON not Intel chips. It will most likely make use of Hyper-transport as well

[Edited by DARTH on 05-03-2001 at 06:47 PM]

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Rain

Preach on Brother Darth!

Seriously though, every single thing Darth covered is true. For an in depth reason WHY it's true, try here.

http://www.emulators.com/pentium4.htm

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Crazyace

AMD chips are not faster clock for clock. The P3 is still faster than AMD's clock for clock! They P4 may not be the package just yet, but when the support begins, look out. P2 started of slow. So did the P3. I just think its still a matter of a little time. A few months.

DARTH

ah the P3 is not faster then the Athlon 1Ghz sorry buddy And considering Intel can't get their P3 past 1Ghz it is a mute point. Also the P4 is doomed. Why?

P4 even at .13um still requires twice the size wafer as an AMD .13um chip, which by the way will hit first. This means for every one P4 there will be two Athlons, which means the P4 will again be an expensive chip. Personally loyalty to any one company just because of their name is ridiculous. Look at the facts and you will see that Intel has fudged up big time across the board. They are gonna lose the Notebook market to the nVidia/AMD (Palomino) combo and they will have more PC market share eaten away by years end. The numbers don't lie. I only ask that you not blatantly follow a brand. You would think working at a hardware site would keep you abreast of how the industry is turning. Thats right the industry is turning to AMD. Hence AMD's stock is now higher then INTC. Also it is laughable that you recommend Intel based only on the fact that the P3 is , according to your claims, faster then the Athlon clock for clock. What about the other 8 reasons, I noticed you neglected to comment on them. Hmmm could it be because you no I am right? hehe Anyways for our readers we stick by the recommendation in accordance with our review results.

[Edited by DARTH on 05-03-2001 at 07:52 PM]

LPMiller

yeah yeah...but it should be mentioned that the P4 is a different kind of animal from the AMD, and a clock for clock compare is fully fair. IF intel keeps going the way they are with the chip speeds, and IF SS2 ramps up well enough...well, I just wouldn't count it out; nor do I think it's a bad purchase for certain things...photoshop, for example.

It's kind of like the Mac/PC thing.

By no means would I ever tell someone NOT to buy Intel - though for cheap and for speed, AMD is going to be the answer...for dually, P3's till AMD gets their **** together.

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paulc

1. AMD are clock for clock faster
Generally yes, but SSE2 throughtput can be higher than the Athlon's x87 FPU. Does it matter that much "right now?" Not really, but I don't doubt many people will use Visual Studio.NET, which can optimize for the P4.

2. AMD chips are cheaper
True

3. DDR platform is cheaper then RDRAM Platform
True again... motherboards and memory are cheaper and there is much more mobo selection

4. Socket 423 will be phased out soon
Yeah, that was kind of dumb making a socket with only a 12 month life-span.

5. There are not as many motherboard solution for Intel
Disagree. If you're only talking about the P4, then that is true. But in general, there are more Intel platform boards (P3 alone) than Athlon.

6. P4 clock throttling in desktop systems is ridiculous and hinders performance dropping core clock to half operating speed if CPU is under full load for too long
False. Thermal protection has nothing to do with how long the processor runs. To still spread this lie is just plain ignorant.

7.Intel has yet to deliver any P4 1.7GHz to the retail channel as there are shortages occurring
Retail is far, far less than 5% of the total market. If you read your source "The Inquirer," you'll see in the same screenshots that the same vendors had ZERO 1.33GHz TBirds and many more on order.

8. Overclocked P4 1.8GHz performed worse then an Athlon 1.33MHz at default. That is just pathetic
Optimization has not been done for the P4. A similar situation existed the 386/486 and Pentium. Today's software runs faster on an Athlon, which is great, but you can't say that about the next generation of software. Already the 12.xx Detonators and the new P4 optimized MMX Photoshop filters (plus the Divx encoder) show how much of a boost you can get out of the processor. Counting the P4 out right now is shortsighted.

9. The first nVidia Motherboard chipset will support DDR and the ATHLON not Intel chips. It will most likely make use of Hyper-transport as well
That's true too. I hope the Crush chipset is out this quarter because I want one. Don't you mean LDT though?

You can fairly evaluate the Athlon and show it as a good choice, but fanboy talk is pointless. It makes a good deal of sense for someone to upgrade from a PII or Celeron to a P3 (assuming the mobo supports it) for cost, ease and time-saving reasons. A blanket statement that says no one should ever buy Intel is stupid.

DARTH

I must agree that my DON'T BUY INTEL position was wrong. I meant do not buy P4's not their other lines. I figured it was understood with the subject topic being about the P4. P3 1GHz is still an acceptable product but for less you CAN buy a faster Athlon. As far as Celerons the DURONs trounce them in performance. Hyper-transport is LDT or Lightning Data Transfer. It was re-named. The clock throttling kicks in depending upon cpu temp which obviously is elevated the longer the processor is run under full load. As far as the 1.33 availability. I can walk into any of four local shops and pick one up today.

paulc

Pricewatch has 31 vendors selling retail boxed P4s, with and without bundled RDRAMM RIMMs. Some of those places are local to me (within 30 miles). So your claim falls apart on a quick availability check.

No. That still does not justify the your original statement. You must further state that with INADAQUATE cooling (the P4 retail heatsink is fine), the processor will clock throttle to save itself (well, mostly to keep stability since the CPU won't usually melt if you have a heatsink on it). Under normal use, the CPU will NEVER throttle, no matter how long it is run.

Rain

I fully agree that the P4 would blow away anything if the program that it was running was written especially for it.

Here's the problem.

The programs coming out now are written for P2's if I remember correctly. Especially where Microsoft is concerned they are extremely slow about programming for new CPU's. So saying that the P4 could be great with the right programming is a moot point, because by the time that programming surfaces, we might very well be on the P6.

sbp

{enjoys this thread from the cheering stands while drinking a brew}

Rain

You know sbp, I was going to drag you over here from AMD realm here fairly soon.

Pabby

"AMD chips are not faster clock for clock. The P3 is still faster than AMD's clock for clock! They P4 may not be the package just yet, but when the support begins, look out. P2 started of slow. So did the P3. I just think its still a matter of a little time. A few months."

ROFLMAO. Pentium III faster than Athlon 1.0GHz clock-for-clock? Have you been hiding in a dark closet? The Athlon, clock-for-clock, is superior to ANY shipping Intel CPU. Period. No matter how many "optimizations" software developers make, the Athlon is still superior when we get down to clock-for-clock performance.

And, FWIW, my 1.5GHz Athlon and GeForce 3 are faster than similiar 1.8GHz+ P4 rigs, even with the new Detonators...

DARTH

This was just posted by ZDNET Germany. I grabbed it from AthloMB. Here are the translated key quotes. They compared the Athlon to P4

"If the PC is used mainly as typical Office computers, one should do without the acquisition of a Pentium 4 and instead go for an Athlon. The AMD-CPU is clearly superior to the P4 in all interests.

Intels marketing machinery praises the new Pentium 4 as ideal Internet processor on (" Experience the Visual Internet with the Intel Pentium 4 "). The results of the ZD i-Bench 2,0 expose this praise as pure wishful thinking.

With the structure of complex HTML pages the present P4-Topmodel achieves only 73 per cent of the performance of an Athlon/1000 with it's 1700 MHz. The over-clocked Athlon with 1533 MHz is almost twice as fast in this test as the Intel Pentium 4/1700.

In the Office as also within the Internet area the distance to AMDs Athlon is even so large that one must advise against the purchase of a P4. With Highend applications, which have no SSE2-Optimizing, one should likewise refrain from the application of a Pentium 4."

Scojo

I'm not going to try to argue with a Sith Lord when every box in my house runs an AMD. Why pay more for an "*ntel Inside" sticker? You can get one on Ebay with the cash you saved by getting an AMD: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI...tem=1235273420

Thanks,

Scojo

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Crazyace

Clock for clock, its faster in games then the Athlon. Here:

http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardwa...133/page10.asp


http://www4.tomshardware.com/cpu/00q...0/giga-05.html

Pabby

P3 IS FASTER
Clock for clock, its faster in games then the Athlon. Here:

http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardwa...133/page10.asp


http://www4.tomshardware.com/cpu/00q...0/giga-05.html

----

Please, don't be such an idiot.

Your first link provides a "review" and "benchmark" of the infamous 1.13GHz P3, which never got off the ground. It was a complete, utter failure. It's also interesting to note they don't specify what platform the T-Bird was running.

Your second link is also ancient. It is using KX133 and AMD 750 'Irongate' as a comparison? Puh-leeze.

You've got to be honest. i815+1.0GHz PIII is slower across the board than a 1.0GHz Athlon 'C' on KT133A. There's no point in comparing year(s)-old platforms.

DARTH

No offense CrazyAce but Pabby is right. The Tomshardware is also not using an Athlon with the T-bird core which are the only ones shipping now.

Crazyace

Show me dont tell me. I'll find more benchmarks if you'd like. Bottom line is, they are both great chip and they both offer great performance. I just think its pretty stupid for people to keep critizing Intel, because they do make a good product. Price has been the issue, and the prices are now comming down. I own both AMD and Intel systems, and think higly of both. Pappy, my discussion with you is over until you can talk more civil.


[Edited by Crazyace on 05-06-2001 at 07:48 AM]

Crazyace

http://www.chickshardware.com/html/r.../tb1100/2.html

Look at the 1ghz Tbird vs the 1ghz Coppermine.. Like I said before, both chips are real close in performance, but the P3 does speed up a bit. MDK is a little closer.

OC

This reminds me of when MMX was introduced. It was a full 18 months before there was any volume of software to take advantage of it. The P4s may end up being the sh*t after more optimized software hits the market, but right now they aren't. There is no real justification for the higher cost unless you're one of those who has to have bragging rights, but then again, at the moment there's little about the P4 to brag about.

-OC

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Vermont Boy

One can make good arguments for either Intel or AMD when talking only about performance. However, when you factor in the price then AMD clearly comes out ahead. Speaking only for myself, I know that when it comes time to upgrade or buy a new computer I usually have a certain maximum dollar amount that I can spend. For that money, I can get better performance with AMD. When an Athlon is, clock for clock, equal to similar Intel products, there is no way I am going to pay extra for the privilege of having the Intel brand name inside. For some reason, some people still associate Intel as being a superior product. Let's not forget that early Pentiums were recalled for problems with their FPU's, if I remember correctly. Let's not forget about the MTH fiasco that forced Intel to recall all those motherboards, or the PIII 1.13 that had to be recalled. And I certainly don't forget that Intel tried to team up with the evil Rambus to force me to adopt a new kind of memory that costs much more for little or no performance gain. Thank god that AMD and DDR memory were around to provide an alternative, or else I'd still be saving up for a P4/RDRAM system instead of enjoying my new T'bird/DDR system. So we can split hairs about which processor is faster, but when everything else is factored in, AMD is the clear choice for me.

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Rocket2Fun

don't rush to buy any P4's or Athlons
there is a new chip coming out and it's going to kick everyone's butt it's a all new processor from the amazing company VIA... hahahahahah sad but true oh well let's just ignore that wannabe contender and let it disappear just like CYRIX if anyone out there is still using a cyrix computer system i might consider buying it... i've always wanted to own a piece of **** system that i could abuse and the just throw away because it wasn't worth the room it sat on

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