cheapchinese

if i wanted to know each of the components that dell uses to build up the computer... which website do i go to?
cause i'm thinking of buying the dell on deal page $399...just want to know the specs on that com.
thanks any info would help

Jeffbx

Some components are listed on the customization page, like the video card, sound card, modem & NIC. Others, like RAM, CDRW & HD, change pretty frequently due to price fluctuations & market availability. You can buy 2 Dimension desktop PCs with the same specs, and one may have a WD drive while the other has a Seagate. Since they change around so often, I dont't think there's a way you can tell for sure the brand of every component in the system until you receive it & crack open the case.

cheapchinese

thanks....
but that sucks.... but at least would i be able to know what motherboard they use?

djradam

i believe the motherboard is proprietary (so only dell makes it, or has someone else make it) ... anyway, dell mother boards will only be found in dells, i don't think they're standard ATX size as well. i think power supply is proprietary as well, so only dell power supplies will go with dell boards and no other power supplies (without modification) will go with a dell motherboard. since the board is not ATX size, you can't plop an ATX Asus,etc board in your dell case.

i THINK that's how it used to be, i don't know if it's still the same, i'm assuming it is.

cheapchinese

ouch.....
i'm rethinking the deal then, cause i definetly know that i'll be modifying it, if i'll cause problem later on....i shouldn't rush

Apex

They're ATX motherboards made by intel for Dell. The power supplies are all standard ATX with standard ATX connectors. The only power supplies and things that are proprietary are the ones that are obviously so (ie. the Dimension 4600c ultra-compact system). It's been this way for awhile now.

cheapchinese

hmm...
thanks guys......
made my decision.....credit card pay it later.....i think way too much

slaus

I thought the boards were made in taiwan by some motherboard pusher of a company. Super low quality manufacturer or something

djradam

dell is pretty much made in taiwan. my friend who knows/knew people there in taiwan would have (or seen) dell laptops without the dell logo and they'd get 'em for like 200-300$. they were obviously dell, and obviously taken right from the factory illegally. just shows how much dell makes on computers!

mcs328

Well don't make my mistake and get the 2350 model. No AGP slot. If I had enough money I'd get the one on the deal page because I doubt I can build one cheaper.

__________________

gringott

Dell is a big user of PC Chips motherboards. Also, to my knowledge, the issue of a proprietary power supply is still true. They switched some wires around on the ATX connector "for technical reasons." Ask around, you will find out. To my knowledge, they have the mb made for them in batches. What Dell has become is the Packard Bell of the 21st century.

Apex

Dell's Dimension 2400, 4600, and 8300 all use standard ATX power supplies. Same with the PowerEdge 400SC and 600SC.

Which ones have swiched around wires, gringott?

The vast majority of PC Chips motherboards are SiS and VIA based.

gringott

Here are various quotes about the Dell Power Supply Situation, I have no idea what they are pumping out today, this minute, but pop your case open and take a look. Yes, Dell has great prices, it seems, but they are cheep for a reason. I have not had hands on experience for about 8 months, but what I have seen of Dell products did not impress me. We got a truckload of Dells in Korea, they replaced various brands that were Pentium IIs, the Dells were Pentium IIIs. The bottom line was the new computers were slower in actual useage than the ones they replaced. The Battalion Commander made them (the commo people who did the IT there) return his old computer. The rest of us weren't so lucky. I have only an opinion, I'm not recommending any other brand, just stating what I have seen and read. I realize that you have turned this website into Dell Land, that's fine, you can do what you want, but it doesn't change what Dells are. A cheep computer for Mom and Pop, taking the role that Packard Bell had for years. Of course, they do make high end servers and workstations, I'm sure that they are fine, but the cheep stuff is just that. As for the motherboards, I think I was just wrong, I checked as best I can (Dell will tell you nothing) and it appears that many of Dell's motherboards are made by Intel, where and who subcontracts them, I do not know. Anyway, here is the stuff on the power supplies:

First quote:
This Dell supply here is a 200-watt unit, but the one that originally came in this system was only a 145-watt unit. That was one thing that kind of alerted me to there being a problem. I thought that was a little bit low, especially for a fully configured tower system like that. I went and retrieved my replacement supply and installed it and plugged it in. It had the same connector--the same auxiliary connector. I plugged it in, I turned it on, and it caught on fire. I couldn't believe it. I saw flames shoot out the vents and the back of the power supply! Now what's wrong? Well, upon further examination, I found the answer. If you take a look at the two main power connectors, you'll see how I found where the problem really lies. Look at the color-coding on the wires. It's different on the Dell power connector versus the industry-standard ATX. On the industry-standard ATX here, you'll see for example two red wires which are 5 volts, a white wire which is -5, three black wires--those are grounds--and this green wire which is the power supply on signal from the motherboard. We have another black or ground wire which is -12 and then an orange wire which is 3.3 volts.
The bottom line is if you install an upgraded motherboard in a Dell system purchased after September 1998, you will blow that motherboard up. Or, on the other hand, if you install an upgraded power supply in a Dell system purchased after that date, you will blow up your new power supply and the Dell motherboard. So, keep that in mind. I am totally against nonstandard setups like this, and for that reason, I've got to recommend other manufacturers for systems that are upgradeable. So, stay away from proprietary parts.

Another
Dell is Also Using Non-Standard Motherboards
lbyard Apr-19-02 11:49 AM
In response to message 0

http://213.219.40.69/19040209.htm:
"DURING THE WEEK we've run a number of stories about the upgradability, or otherwise of Dell PCs.
The company has now provided us with its official position on this in the form of the following statement:"

"EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Dell does not make generic ATX boxes - this is well known throughout the industry. Customers that would be affected by this are up graders, and the reality is that only a very small percentage of users will actually attempt this type of upgrade. We have made many improvements to the original ATX standard to meet the growing needs of customers over time. Companies like Intel are helping to drive an industry standard specification surrounding this.
Dell is catering for its customers needs by using components that keep prices low so the majority who do not upgrade get a better price. We made changes to better the product not to simply reduce costs, but to improve quality and reliability levels as well as to help meet regulatory requirements in certain instances..."

“… Additionally, Dell's motherboards have custom form factors to optimise for the best cooling solutions, emissions control, and for quick and easy serviceability…”

The rest is well worth reading. They say current motherboards use standard power supply connectors, but have non-standard motherboard form factors.

I am no longer recommending Dell to customers who are contemplating purchasing a computer via mail order of through the Internet. Larry



Or check this web page

http://www.dslwebserver.com/main/del...e-500sc-3.html
About half way down.
Or this
http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/nexus.html
Toward the bottom

Or check this



Dell Power Supply Adapter (Dell to ATX Power Supply Converter)


Dell Power Supplies
This Dell to ATX adapter allows you to use a Quiet Power Supply with your Dell computer (in place of a Dell power supply).

The power supply that came with your Dell computer manufactured since September of 1998, may look like a standard ATX power supply. A standard ATX power supply will even physically fit into the Dell computer and the electrical components will look like they line up, however if you don't use a proprietary Dell power supply or a Dell to ATX Power Supply Converter with your standard ATX power supply, your computer will not work and damage may occur to the motherboard and/or the standard power supply.

Your Dell Power Supply May Be Proprietary
Like many other pre-fabricated computer manufacturers, Dell has chosen to go with many proprietary computer components instead of using industry standard computer parts. When it is time for replacement or upgrade of these components, they have to be purchased from Dell. In Dell's case one of the proprietary parts is one you might not expect: your Dell power supply may look like a standard ATX power supply, but in fact cannot be replaced with a standard ATX power supply. The reason you need a proprietary Dell power supply is because Dell has been using specially modified ATX motherboards with non-standard pinout of the motherboard power connectors. This Dell to ATX adapter converts between the non-standard pinout to the standard ATX pinout and turns a standard ATX power supply into the equivalent of a Dell power supply.

Adapter To Turn Standard ATX Power Supply Into A Dell Power Supply
If you own a Dell computer and wish to use one of our quiet power supplies (all of which are standard ATX power supplies), you can simply add this converter to the quiet power supply and have a quiet Dell setup.

Known exceptions:
Pentium 4 Dell Models that do not require a power supply adapter:
Dell Dimension 4300, 4400, 8200

Pentium 4 Dell Models that are not compatible with this power supply adapter:
Dell Dimension 8100

If you are still unsure if your Dell requires one of our Dell Power Supply Adapters, please take a close look at the Dell motherboard pictured at the top of this page and see if your motherboard has the extra connector pictured on the left.

This site has this quote:
http://www.freep.com/money/tech/newman5_20030805.htm

A new supply can give you more power, regulated at a more even level, at a much lower noise level. And it's a part that typically costs $50-$150.

Replacing it can be tricky, because you absolutely, positively want to make sure that it's compatible with your machine before you plug it in. Dell computers, for example, often use a proprietary plug linking the power supply to the motherboard. Use one with the wrong plug, and it'll literally set your computer on fire.


Check this, it also states that Dell uses INTEL motherboards, contrary to what I said, more in detail about the changes.

I spoke with one of the engineers at a major power supply manufacturer, and asked if there was a valid technical reason (maybe some problem in the ATX specification) that would require Dell to use unique connector pinouts. Of course the answer was that, no, the only reason we could imagine they did this is to lock people into purchasing replacement motherboards or power supplies from Dell. In fact what makes this worse is that Dell uses virtually all Intel boards in their systems. One I have uses an Intel D815EEA motherboard, which is the same board used by many of the other major system builders, including Gateway, Micron and others. The same except for the power connectors that is. The difference is that Dell has Intel custom make the boards for Dell with the non-standard connectors. Everybody else gets virtually the same Intel boards, but with industry standard connectors.

Table 21.7 and 21.8 show the non-standard Dell Main and Auxiliary power supply connections. This non-standard wiring is used on Dell systems dating from after September 1998 to the present.

Table 21.7 - Dell proprietary (non-standard) ATX Main Power Connector pinout (wire side view)

Color
Signal
Pin
Pin
Signal
Color

Gray
PS_On
11
1
+5V
Red

Black
GND
12
2
GND
Black

Black
GND
13
3
+5V
Red

Black
GND
14
4
GND
Black

White
-5V
15
5
Power_Good
Orange

Red
+5V
16
6
+5VSB (standby)
Purple

Red
+5V
17
7
+12V
Yellow

Red
+5V
18
8
-12V
Blue

KEY (blank)
-
19
9
GND
Black

Red
+5V
20
10
GND
Black




Table 21.8 - Dell proprietary (non-standard) ATX Auxiliary Power Connector Pinout

Pin
Signal
Color

1
Gnd
Black

2
Gnd
Black

3
Gnd
Black

4
+3.3V
Blue/White

5
+3.3V
Blue/White

6
+3.3V
Blue/White




At first I thought that if all they did was switch some of the terminals around, then I could use a terminal pick to remove the terminals from the connectors (with the wires attached) and merely reinsert them into the proper connector positions, allowing me to use the Dell power supply with an upgraded ATX motherboard in the future. Unfortunately if you study the Dell main and auxiliary connector pinouts I've listed here and compare them to the industry standard ATX pinouts listed earlier, you'll see that not only are the voltage and signal positions changed, but the number of terminals carrying specific voltages and grounds has changed as well. It would be possible to modify a Dell supply to work with a standard ATX board, or to modify a standard ATX supply to work with a Dell board, but you'd have to do some cutting and splicing in addition to swapping some terminals around. Usually it wouldn't be worth the time and effort.

Check this site about half way down there is a video

http://www.upgradingandrepairingpcs..../13thvideo.asp

The Hardware Guys:
http://www.hardwareguys.com/dellwarn.html


Or this page, http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1151862,00.asp

Which states:
The system uses a nonstandard, 460W power supply that actually resides in the bottom of the case.

And:
Like many of the newer Dell systems, this one uses a semi-proprietary motherboard manufactured for Dell using the Intel 875P chipset. Although it only has four PCI slots, this isn't a major issue, as the rear ATX panel sports six USB 2.0 ports and the 10/100 Ethernet port. Two additional USB 2.0 ports and one six-pin, powered 1394a (Firewire) port grace the front of the case, under a small, flip-open door.


I guess that is enough quotes, if you need more, let me know.

gringott

gringott

Here is a clue from a article about China and manufacturing vs. Taiwan:

The numerous component players around the region display a similar, if not more impressive, differential. Cisco, Dell, Nokia, and every other global manufacturer have begun forcing their suppliers into China, or else demanding comparable pricing. Only top-tier suppliers that relocate greater portions of their work to China appear to stand a chance.

Theme No. 1: Logistics are critical. Take Dell. The company is legendary for keeping inventory down to less than a day at various facilities, but its most efficient facility may be in Xiamen, China, where inventory stays on hand for just a couple of hours. How does it pull this off? Dell has been able to dictate the clustering of suppliers a short distance from its plant in Xiamen more easily than any place else on Earth.

So is an Intel motherboard made by Chinese slave labor in some Red Chinese plant still an Intel motherboard? I don't know. The hints are out there.

Apex

That's all OLD INFORMATION. That's the point. People are still talking about stuff that no longer exists, because, in your words

The last Dell that everyone was complaining about with a non-ATX power supply pinout hasn't been sold for over a year. And yes, it is rather horrible that everyone who bought one of those who wants to change their power supply had to spring for a $9-14 adapter.

The power supply they use is a 250w model, rated at average throughput. Max throughput (as quoted by many other manufacturers) is closer to 330-340. The +3.3 & +5v rails give you about as much juice as many higher end (enermax, pc power & cooling, vantec, sparkle, etc) 300w supplies.

The bottom line is NONE YOU CAN POSSIBLY BUY TODAY have switched power supply lines. You can live your life like it's the 20th century, but that doesn't make it so.

Yes, they are cheap for a reason. Economies of scale & sacrificing margin on the desktop market in favor of margins on server & service.

gringott

I think the problem is, Apex, not that you have to get an adapter to change the power supply, but that they used standard connectors and didn't tell anyone that the motherboards were proprietary and the power supplies were proprietary. That's the issue. If they don't make them like that anymore, why?? They claimed that they were making them like that because IT WAS BETTER! So are they making WORSE units now???? The double speak is killing me.

You said:

Yes, they are cheap for a reason. Economies of scale & sacrificing margin on the desktop market in favor of margins on server & service.

I say:

Bunk. Double speak. Yeah they sell a lot (economy of scale) Sacrificing margin? I don't buy it. Read the articles all over the manufacturing magazines and publications. They make a fine margin on the desktops. I used to laugh when they had those special prices on TV. Touch one item on the under equipped system (like ram, hard drive, etc) and the price shot to the moon. Hahahah.

Hey, you can love them all you want, I am sure you make a fine profit from all the sales you send them, but you can't fool me.

sbp

Hey gringott: ok so Dell sucks. Then what company should someone buy a desktop pc from? HP/Compaq?

slaus

Heh, you could always go with alienware or voodoo but you'll have to get a second mortgage.

gringott

They are all about the same at this stage of the game, the difference between Dell and the HP/Compaqs Gateways is that Dell is one step ahead in cutting costs to the bone, which allows them to sell for less. I personally wouldn't buy from any of them, and never have, with the exception of buying a "refurb" HP from Comp Geeks two years ago for $250 that was brand new for my kid in college. Only change we have made in the two years is to upgrade the cd writer with a 52x, cost $9 after rebate. Would I use such a system? No. For a college kid who has to type term papers? A commodore 64 can word process. Anything will do. Hell, you could use a typewriter. I did. If you are looking to buy a base system to upgrade, why are you buying a Dell? Have any of you ever used a Dell? Or the other brands? Take any of them, match them against a pc you build with EXACTLY the same specs, and the difference is amazing. The major PC builders have been playing the same game for years, underclocking pcs for stability, using "special made" versions of popular graphics cards, stressing the good spec (80 gig harddrive) downplaying the bad (5400 rpm) etc. It's business. I can't fault it. But it's not for me. If you plan on upgrading as soon as you buy it, why would you buy something outside of Industry standard specs? What have you saved? If you are buying it in 2002 (as Apex suggested) as an 20th century machine the next year (2003) ready for the trash heap, then yeah, sure, you should buy the cheapest piece of plastic you can. After all, you are going to call it antique in a year. However, if you are going to use it for 4 or 5 years before a major upgrade, then you want something that is a good base for upgrading, that has a known path. Ask my neighbor, he knows nothing about computers, he just knew his kids wanted one, he bought one of the Dell specials without consulting anyone, and his kids come over and ask me, "Will this game work on our computer?" And I am not talking about the latest and greatest, I'm talking about games that have been around a couple of years. And I have to tell them no. This is not a Dell only problem, this is all the majors. I just feel sorry for people who get taken down the Packard Bell road. At least, to my knowledge, the Gateways/Hpcompaq/Microns are not having motherboards "made special" to thier proprietary specs. If I am wrong, please forgive me. And this is my opinion. After all, didn't this board (website) start as a "get the most out of your computer" site? I hardly think $299 plastic cased dells are "high end" pcs.

gringott

Because the last link is to an article at extremetech site, titled "The ExtremeTech Performance System" which compares a Dell XPS, a Gateway 700XL, and a system they built themselves. This article was published ON 19 JUNE 2003, not last century like you said, not "over a year ago" etc. The last quotes about non standard power supply and non standard motherboard were from that article.

Here is what they said in the conclusion, in case you don't want to read the entire article:
Quote:
We are, however, simultaneously impressed with the performance of the Gateway 700XL system and disappointed with the performance of the Dell Dimension XPS. Dell spent a lot of energy developing a slick looking case, and building a damned quiet system, only for it to fall short in the performance arena. The potential compatibility issues leave us slightly concerned, too.
Quote next paragraph:
However, the Dell is incredibly quiet, and the case is a joy to work with. Unfortunately, it won't accept standard ATX components, so you won't be able to swap in your favorite motherboard at a later date. To really participate in the market for boutique gaming systems, Dell really has to work on the performance side, however.


And they had this to say in the review of the Dell XPS (price $$$4,079 as tested, THAT IS 4,079 DOLLARS as tested - one of the best they make, I assume)
QUOTE:
Given the laundry list of high end components, the slick clamshell case and the overall fit and finish of the final hardware, we ended up being somewhat disappointed in the Dimension XPS. There were two reasons: performance and compatibility.

We'll present the results of the performance testing shortly, but suffice it to say that the Dimension XPS came up short in the majority of our performance tests. In fact, the Gateway system generally performed better, despite using the same CAS3 latency memory as the Dell. Our suspicion is that Dell backed off just a bit on the memory timing in the system BIOS in order to ensure reliability and minimize support costs. The Dell system did do well in some performance tests, but 3D Studio Max, in particular, generated disappointing results. Note that the Dell ships with only CL3 DDR memory, but so did the Gateway 700XL, which simply performed better.

And this, which substantiates my earlier comment:
QUOTE:
The Dell BIOS is typical of all Dell BIOSes. There is no way to tweak bus speeds or memory timings, probably to reduce incident calls to customer support.


Bottom line, if I paid $4,079 US DOLLARS for a friggin PC it better be the best PC I have ever touched. Not "It came up short in the majority of our performance tests." Now even if they discount that baby a grand and throw in a "free upgrade" to a 21" LCD, I wouldn't want it.

And don't think I am in love with gateway or whatever, I'm not. The subject happened to be Dell, and that's the point. They are just the worst offender in that area, not the only one. Gateway itself in the article took several hits, one because the power supply used plastic tabs to hold it in place, which standard supplies don't have. However, they were quick to point out that it DID NOT HAVE TRICKY SWITCHING OF PINS ON A STANDARD CONNECTOR.

Here is how they compared the two:
QUOTE:
But the 700XL proved its mettle time and again, and we were pretty impressed with its overall performance and stability. Better yet, at $3,449 as tested, it's not only faster than the Dell, but costs less, too. You do give up some expandability and noise, but you gain in performance.

Hey, what can I say. Even at $3.5K, I fail to see how you couldn't build a better system at home for much less. Call me crazy, but that's what I see.

Sorry

gringo

Apex

cheapchinese is not asking about a $3000-4000 computer. He's asking for a $400 computer. For $400, you cannot build a faster computer yourself. Apples to apples.

Go to pricewatch or anywhere else you want and price the components. There's no way you can match it for $400.

gringott

Darkfury:
I don't disagree- the point was, I thought, at first, what was in a dell - and the issue of upgrading. I think we got off track because Apex questioned the "non-standard" issue and said it was not true for over a year or so - I pointed out that even the $4K XPS had non-ATX (non-standard) power supply and mb. The cheap ones, to what I have found, NOW are standard. Since when, nobody seems to know, and can they go back - YES. I agree, if nothing ever goes wrong during the warranty period, and you plan on never using it again after that period, sure. I have told friends before, buy a dell or an emachines and use it for a couple of years - then toss it. I HAVE experience with Dell's CORPORATE service - it was terrible. Even HP had better. Your mileage might vary - I cannot dispute that different people have different experiences with allmost every company. The only reason I continued to point out the FACTS is because APEX disputed them. I don't disagree with what you have said. But I do think that ALL the majors use deceptive practices when it comes to what is in the case, CPU speed as a measurement of speed etc. Dell does not stand alone.
gringo

bachviet

I got my Dell for $479 after MIR and I'm pretty much happy with it. I even has a 64MB AIW R9000Pro video card with that price. If I ever want a gaming PC, I wouldn't buy from anybody 'cauze it's cheaper and better to build.

Joshua

I like Dell.

oh yeah.. Dell IS my main machine too...

__________________
The Apexer formerly known as SnotRocket.

"Like I ****ing said, "Ok, so I hear it may be a repost. Blah But I had never seen it, so..." **** you Canta." -Jenny 12/4/2003

gear02

would you guys buy dell laptops?

Apex

There are a few models that do not use a standard ATX sized power supply, and the XPS/Precision650 models definitely fit this category. They have a standard ATX connector, but the shape of the PS is different. However, it's obvious from the pictures how different the PS is. This being said, it's an extremely stout 460w unit that doesn't need replacing even with upwards of 4 15k rpm hard drives, workstation class graphics card, dual processors, etc.

The micro desktops also have nonstandard power supplies (Though with standard ATX connectors). This makes sense, as you can't actually fit an ATX PS in them.

I do agree with the service accessment though. It's hard to reach a good person, especially now with the tech support outsourced. Their tech policies are GREAT, especially with RMA's and returns (they pay shipping both ways, you have returns up to 30 days with no restocking fee, etc), but their support personel seem spotty.

bachviet

I got a Dell Inspiron 2650 and I'm okay with it. I paid more than $600 for it though.