IS your house on fire???

The Happy Squirrel · 07-19-2008, 08:20 AM

what are your thoughts on this??? ANyone have this already in place???

http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/art...6&section=News

Pay a fee if your house is on fire? Duluth councilors might consider it
Patrick Garmoe Duluth News Tribune
Published Saturday, July 19, 2008

Next time you get into a car accident, or need firefighters to douse your home with water, brace for a bill.

Charging flat fees for these police and fire responses is an idea the Duluth City Council may vote onJuly 28.

City administrators are contemplating charging homeowners or drivers a flat $500 fee when firefighters extinguish a fire at a home, extract someone from a mangled car, or if police have to investigate a car accident.

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Patrick Garmoe Archive
“We don’t know what the fees are yet,” city spokesman Jeff Papas said.

If councilors approve the notion of charging the fees, they would then — perhaps also on July 28 — have to separately vote on the fees.

While the fire response and vehicle extraction would apply to everyone, the plan to charge to investigate car accidents would only be assessed to non-residents, if the city can legally pass an ordinance that differentiates between the two groups, Papas said. The city attorney’s office still is checking whether the ordinance can differentiate between residents and non-residents of Duluth.

“You’re dealing with about 300 to 330 accidents a year,” Papas said, of which about half involve drivers who reside outside of Duluth.

The idea is supposed to net the city an additional estimated $100,000 annually, Papas said, about half from fire calls, and the other half from police investigations.

It would be another budget boost for a city that this year is facing a $4.5 million deficit.

According to the ordinance, the city would bill the insurance company. But if the insurance company wouldn’t pay, or there was no insurance, then the homeowner would be billed. If he or she didn’t pay, the charge could be assessed on the following year’s property taxes, the proposed ordinance says.

The idea was modeled after a similar ordinance in Burnsville, Minn., Papas said.

The Burnsville Fire Department charges varying fees for vehicle extractions, and having to go into licensed care facilities to lift patients, said Steven Harklerode, Fire Chief, but not for fighting blazes.

Nothing is charged for fires or for police assistance, Harklerode said.

Edie Clark, director of communications for the International Association of Fire Chiefs, said there is a smattering of cities across the country that has begun charging fees.

Some councilors voiced strong philosophical opposition.

“I don’t like it,” said Councilor Sharla Gardner. “People are already paying for those services through their taxes. I don’t think it’s at all fair.”

Councilor Jim Stauber said the city’s administration should focus on cost-cutting, not charging residents more.

“Our fire department is the most expensive per capita, than any other fire department in the state,” Stauber said.

He also worried charging a fee might make people reluctant to call the police or fire departments.

“I just think it’s a very bad idea,” he said. He also feared that once implemented, fees would end up rising annually.

While Councilor Jeff Anderson hadn’t decided where he stands, he said he definitely won’t support it if the ordinance doesn’t include an expiration date.

“We have to recognize that eventually we’ll be in a more solvent position,” he said, and therefore these fees should only be charged during this stretch when the city is cash-strapped, Anderson said.

Council President Roger Reinert said other cities have fees for various city services He said he will consider the idea, but would like to know if insurance would pick up the tab in most cases.

“I’m certainly interested in hearing about it,” he said. Increasingly, the city is asked to offer more and more services with fewer dollars. This would be one way to help remedy that, he said. “It’s not a dead-on-arrival proposal.”

mojo · 07-19-2008, 09:29 AM

people could get used to it if insurance covered it in part or in whole. but at first it could make someone hesitate and in the end cost more in damages.

GraingerGuy · 07-19-2008, 10:07 AM

So does that mean if there is a fire at an apartment complex every single apartment resident has to pony up 500 since all of their homes would have been in danger?

Markel · 07-19-2008, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GraingerGuy

So does that mean if there is a fire at an apartment complex every single apartment resident has to pony up 500 since all of their homes would have been in danger?

I would think that the fire department would be willing to negotiate a volume discount.

DarkFury · 07-19-2008, 12:49 PM

"To serve and protect... for a nominal fee of course".

InfiniteNothing · 07-19-2008, 03:27 PM

Suggested donation

zippyjuan · 07-19-2008, 06:15 PM

They should charge a fee if the are called and NOT needed.

mojo · 07-21-2008, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFury

"To serve and protect... for a nominal fee of course".

i'd pay them in coffee

Memo · 07-21-2008, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zippyjuan

They should charge a fee if the are called and NOT needed.

This is already in place. Well at least where I've lived in Texas and in Connecticut.

cheapie · 07-21-2008, 06:44 AM

they already charge us a fee. it's called TAX!!!

DarkFury · 07-21-2008, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo

i'd pay them in coffee

I've heard that donuts have a higher exchange rate.

cheapie · 07-21-2008, 07:46 AM

he might be referring to the starbucks fiasco.

Prngr44 · 07-21-2008, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheapie

they already charge us a fee. it's called TAX!!!

That's exactly what I was thinking. Sure, I'll pay a fee, when you eliminate that tax on my tax bill.

Maarchk · 07-21-2008, 09:23 AM

Yeah this is no bueno. Some smaller cities around have volunteer fire fighting groups that handle the small situations. And have big city backups in case it is a larger emergency. This way you can manage the cats, and the small brush fires and not spend much money other than supplies.

ShawnLee · 07-21-2008, 10:26 AM

I'm of two minds of this. I'd be completely against it except that there are some times when your own actions put you at risk. I might be in favor of an adjuticated fee where the stupidity of your actions was proportionately related to the fine.

Simple accident, no real fault between the drivers? No fee.
Drunk and racing a buddy? DUI, reckless, etc. etc. etc. and $2000 for the cost of the police department to take care of that.

House fire - just something that happens? No fee.
"Hey Jed! Look at this!" and then your house burns down? $15000.

LPMiller · 07-21-2008, 10:51 AM

we already have that though, Shawn. If it was your fault, you can be fined, you can not have insurance pay, you can be charged. That's something that exists in most places already. But this sounds almost like a legal protection racket.

ShawnLee · 07-21-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LPMiller

we already have that though, Shawn. If it was your fault, you can be fined, you can not have insurance pay, you can be charged. That's something that exists in most places already. But this sounds almost like a legal protection racket.

You're right - but I'm just thinking... There's always that one house in the neighborhood where the cops come out frequently, the cops know everyone involved by name, and the victim refuses to press charges. That house pays as much in taxes as anyone else and that sucks for people who don't "use" the cops as much.

But yeah, legal racketeering = bad idea. Still, I understand the sentiment.

Thesifer · 07-21-2008, 07:09 PM

Why don't they just raise their taxes by $0.25 and call it good.

renovation · 07-21-2008, 07:59 PM

in most rural area's like i live in. the fire dept's are know as the chimney and basement department's.by the time they arrive thats all thats left anyway . the chimney standing and the stoves sitting in the basement with all the ash's of what you did own

InfiniteNothing · 07-21-2008, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thesifer

Why don't they just raise their taxes by $0.25 and call it good.

Raising taxes is unpopular. Everyone thinks accidents won't happen to them.

Thesifer · 07-21-2008, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfiniteNothing

Raising taxes is unpopular. Everyone thinks accidents won't happen to them.

Yeah, but you're still paying for it with Tax that's already there. And every one knows that isn't going away. So now people PAY TAX, and then get screwed again with a Bill when something does happen.

The Happy Squirrel · 07-22-2008, 07:53 PM

yeah the whole system is messed up these days. Everyone is out to cut costs, cut pay-outs and screw everyone they can.

gear02 · 07-22-2008, 10:50 PM

I bet they'd make $100k by firing one of those lunatics they call "city administrators"

07-19-2008, 08:20 AM	#1
The Happy Squirrel Rear Admiral Lower Half Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: the castle beyond the goblin city Posts: 2,529	IS your house on fire??? what are your thoughts on this??? ANyone have this already in place??? http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/art...6&section=News Pay a fee if your house is on fire? Duluth councilors might consider it Patrick Garmoe Duluth News Tribune Published Saturday, July 19, 2008 Next time you get into a car accident, or need firefighters to douse your home with water, brace for a bill. Charging flat fees for these police and fire responses is an idea the Duluth City Council may vote onJuly 28. City administrators are contemplating charging homeowners or drivers a flat $500 fee when firefighters extinguish a fire at a home, extract someone from a mangled car, or if police have to investigate a car accident. RELATED CONTENT Patrick Garmoe Archive “We don’t know what the fees are yet,” city spokesman Jeff Papas said. If councilors approve the notion of charging the fees, they would then — perhaps also on July 28 — have to separately vote on the fees. While the fire response and vehicle extraction would apply to everyone, the plan to charge to investigate car accidents would only be assessed to non-residents, if the city can legally pass an ordinance that differentiates between the two groups, Papas said. The city attorney’s office still is checking whether the ordinance can differentiate between residents and non-residents of Duluth. “You’re dealing with about 300 to 330 accidents a year,” Papas said, of which about half involve drivers who reside outside of Duluth. The idea is supposed to net the city an additional estimated $100,000 annually, Papas said, about half from fire calls, and the other half from police investigations. It would be another budget boost for a city that this year is facing a $4.5 million deficit. According to the ordinance, the city would bill the insurance company. But if the insurance company wouldn’t pay, or there was no insurance, then the homeowner would be billed. If he or she didn’t pay, the charge could be assessed on the following year’s property taxes, the proposed ordinance says. The idea was modeled after a similar ordinance in Burnsville, Minn., Papas said. The Burnsville Fire Department charges varying fees for vehicle extractions, and having to go into licensed care facilities to lift patients, said Steven Harklerode, Fire Chief, but not for fighting blazes. Nothing is charged for fires or for police assistance, Harklerode said. Edie Clark, director of communications for the International Association of Fire Chiefs, said there is a smattering of cities across the country that has begun charging fees. Some councilors voiced strong philosophical opposition. “I don’t like it,” said Councilor Sharla Gardner. “People are already paying for those services through their taxes. I don’t think it’s at all fair.” Councilor Jim Stauber said the city’s administration should focus on cost-cutting, not charging residents more. “Our fire department is the most expensive per capita, than any other fire department in the state,” Stauber said. He also worried charging a fee might make people reluctant to call the police or fire departments. “I just think it’s a very bad idea,” he said. He also feared that once implemented, fees would end up rising annually. While Councilor Jeff Anderson hadn’t decided where he stands, he said he definitely won’t support it if the ordinance doesn’t include an expiration date. “We have to recognize that eventually we’ll be in a more solvent position,” he said, and therefore these fees should only be charged during this stretch when the city is cash-strapped, Anderson said. Council President Roger Reinert said other cities have fees for various city services He said he will consider the idea, but would like to know if insurance would pick up the tab in most cases. “I’m certainly interested in hearing about it,” he said. Increasingly, the city is asked to offer more and more services with fewer dollars. This would be one way to help remedy that, he said. “It’s not a dead-on-arrival proposal.” __________________ Lion face / lemon face!

07-19-2008, 09:29 AM	#2
mojo Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: about 2 min away Posts: 7,752	people could get used to it if insurance covered it in part or in whole. but at first it could make someone hesitate and in the end cost more in damages. __________________ these matches say you're lying

07-19-2008, 10:07 AM	#3
GraingerGuy Rear Admiral Upper Half Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Working....and working...and working some more Posts: 3,377	So does that mean if there is a fire at an apartment complex every single apartment resident has to pony up 500 since all of their homes would have been in danger? __________________ potato gun + marshmallow gun = FLAMING MARSHMALLOWS OF DOOM!!!!! -Welfareloser 4/13/05 Time to switch to AMD now I guess... (just kidding... ) -Darkfury 5/23/05 I don't think this'll stop anything though - the better you idiot-proof a system, the more impressive the idiot becomes. -ShawnLee 5/30/08

07-19-2008, 12:49 PM	#5
DarkFury Secretary of the Navy Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Chillin' N Da 'Hood Posts: 32,942	"To serve and protect... for a nominal fee of course". __________________ DarkFury's Pimptopia - Don't Hate the Playa, Hate the Game! Home of the Original OG Pimp (accept NO imitations)

07-19-2008, 03:27 PM	#6
InfiniteNothing Fleet Admiral Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 9,253	Suggested donation __________________ I guess that would mean turning signatures back on. I haven't had them on for ~2 years.

07-19-2008, 06:15 PM	#7
zippyjuan Picture of the Day Guru Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sunny San Diego Posts: 7,789	They should charge a fee if the are called and NOT needed. __________________ I add new pictures to my photo gallery pretty regularly. You can see them here if you are interested: http://www.pbase.com/jeffryz

07-21-2008, 06:44 AM	#10
cheapie Chief of Naval Operations Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: raising my pimp hand strong Posts: 12,135	they already charge us a fee. it's called TAX!!! __________________ Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.

07-21-2008, 07:46 AM	#12
cheapie Chief of Naval Operations Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: raising my pimp hand strong Posts: 12,135	he might be referring to the starbucks fiasco.

07-21-2008, 09:23 AM	#14
Maarchk Rear Admiral Lower Half Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Where the east meets the west. Posts: 2,649	Yeah this is no bueno. Some smaller cities around have volunteer fire fighting groups that handle the small situations. And have big city backups in case it is a larger emergency. This way you can manage the cats, and the small brush fires and not spend much money other than supplies. __________________ "The girl is crafty like ice is cold." "I left my heart in san francisco... And my liver at Moe's Tavern." A real friend is one who listens to you as much as they talk to you.

07-21-2008, 10:51 AM	#16
LPMiller Chief News Editor & Master of His Domain Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Minnesota Posts: 5,985	we already have that though, Shawn. If it was your fault, you can be fined, you can not have insurance pay, you can be charged. That's something that exists in most places already. But this sounds almost like a legal protection racket. __________________ lpmiller Chief News Editor Nobel Prize Nominee Reverend in the Universal Life Church Once Shot A Man For Snoring Too Loud Way Too Lazy To Change His Signature "The strength to change what I can, the inability to accept what I can't, and the incapacity to tell the difference." - Calvin and Hobbes

07-21-2008, 07:09 PM	#18
Thesifer Rear Admiral Upper Half Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oklahoma - Just Recently moved from San Diego Posts: 3,242	Why don't they just raise their taxes by $0.25 and call it good. __________________ Digital Might Forums "For the creative minds. ( Photography, Art, Poetry, Writing )"

07-21-2008, 07:59 PM	#19
renovation Rear Admiral Upper Half Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: by a lake in michigan Posts: 3,074	in most rural area's like i live in. the fire dept's are know as the chimney and basement department's.by the time they arrive thats all thats left anyway . the chimney standing and the stoves sitting in the basement with all the ash's of what you did own __________________ be careful of what you wish for . you may get a ton of junk e-mail ! smile or f-off

07-22-2008, 07:53 PM	#22
The Happy Squirrel Rear Admiral Lower Half Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: the castle beyond the goblin city Posts: 2,529	yeah the whole system is messed up these days. Everyone is out to cut costs, cut pay-outs and screw everyone they can.

07-22-2008, 10:50 PM	#23
gear02 Admiral Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 7,142	I bet they'd make $100k by firing one of those lunatics they call "city administrators" __________________

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