no more Paper or plastic in LA soon

renovation · 07-23-2008, 06:40 AM

Los Angeles shoppers soon won't hear the question, "Paper or plastic?" at the checkout line.

The City Council voted Tuesday to ban plastic shopping bags from stores, beginning July 1, 2010. Shoppers can either bring their own bags or pay 25 cents for a paper or biodegradable bag.

The council's unanimous vote also puts pressure on the state, which is considering an Assembly bill that would impose bag recycling requirements on stores. City officials said their ban would not be implemented if the state passes the bill and requires at least a 25-cent charge per bag.

"We've gotten to a point where we need to act as a city, where we can have real results," said Councilman Ed Reyes, who proposed the bag ban. "We're trying to do it in a way where we can educate and inform the public of what we're doing."

Reyes said the ban will minimize cleanup costs for the city and reduce trash that collects in storm drains and the Los Angeles River. The city estimates more than 2 billion plastic bags are used each year in Los Angeles. About 5% of plastic bags and 21% of paper bags are recycled in California.
Banning plastic bags will not solve the litter problem, said an attorney who opposes the regulation of plastic bags.

Quote:

"We've had enough of politicians accepting the misinformation that's spread around the Internet about plastic bags," said Stephen Joseph of the Save the Plastic Bag Coalition, which represents bag manufacturers.

Joseph said the city motion gives "a free pass" to paper bags, which he argued are biodegradable but consume more materials and natural resources to make.

Three percent of the bag fee will be returned to the retailer, 3% will go to the state, and the rest will go back to the city to fund an education campaign.

Last year, San Francisco passed the nation's first bag ban, which took effect in November.http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...n_N.htm?csp=15

i don't have a problem with this band -except for the mandate that a store charge $.25 for a paper sack. look a kid comes in buys a bunch of nickel candy for a quarter then he checks out he get zap a extra quarter for the bag. give me a break. i not read the law but if its not done right ,i see bulk foods being a problem . also this law could screw you at best buy to .i can see you having to check in your hand bag at the front door at Best buy. or they hitting you up a quarter plus tax for a bag to carry all the warrienty info they just slammed down you with a scare tactic on that fridge there delivering to your home for $35 tuesday .

DarkFury · 07-23-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by renovation

i don't have a problem with this band -except for the mandate that a store charge $.25 for a paper sack. look a kid comes in buys a bunch of nickel candy for a quarter then he checks out he get zap a extra quarter for the bag. give me a break.

Honestly, most kids don't even want the bag for some candy that they are purchasing. They just want the candy.

Most 25 cent items probably won't even require a bag... I'd think.

attgig · 07-23-2008, 01:15 PM

not a good time to be a plastic bag manufacturer...

Maarchk · 07-23-2008, 01:29 PM

I think DF, that he means if you go to those auto checkers, it's going to assume a minimum of 1 bag and ding you 25 cents when you are trying to get in and out real fast.
I know as an occasional child who loves sugar, i like the auto-checkers because they are way faster than waiting on old people.

So maybe it only dispenses bags if you ask? but that wouldn't work cause you'd need it to dispense before you started and then what if you backed out of the transaction. Yeah messy...

I use plastic bags to take out my food trash with. cause oil and grease and fast off chickens usually leaks through a paper bag. So we will stop 1 form of the plastic bag and then i'll have to go buy glad plastic bags for home? I am going to start stockpiling immediately!

Layla · 07-23-2008, 02:47 PM

I'd think it'd be a little sticky at the self check-outs regardless whether you have one item or 15, because the machine would have to somehow determine how many bags you need.

I know that when I bag my own groceries, I use far less bags then when a clerk does it for me.

DarkFury · 07-23-2008, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maarchk

I think DF, that he means if you go to those auto checkers, it's going to assume a minimum of 1 bag and ding you 25 cents when you are trying to get in and out real fast.
I know as an occasional child who loves sugar, i like the auto-checkers because they are way faster than waiting on old people.

So maybe it only dispenses bags if you ask? but that wouldn't work cause you'd need it to dispense before you started and then what if you backed out of the transaction. Yeah messy...

Maybe there will be some kind of contingency in place where the person overseeing the "self checkout" will give you a "no bag option" therefore you only place the item on the weighted shelf that verifies that you purchased it.

Either way, there would have to be some kind of common sense here on circumstances like that.

BTW... when I self checkout at my local Wal Mart there is a button when you scan your item that says "SKIP BAGGING". You could easily push that and forgo the bag and still pay for your item.

Either way, this policy shouldn't be etched in stone by any means.

Maarchk · 07-23-2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFury

BTW... when I self checkout at my local Wal Mart there is a button when you scan your item that says "SKIP BAGGING". You could easily push that and forgo the bag and still pay for your item.

That's pretty cool! Guess people are already on top of it. Hmm, it will be interesting to see how it goes, and to see if people sneak outside of LA to get plastic bags and then come back in. A bit of a plastic baggy grey market going on!

InfiniteNothing · 07-23-2008, 03:26 PM

Am I the only one here who brings his own bags into the store. Bringing your own bags in is nice because generally your bags are higher quality so you can loop them over your shoulder and carry more groceries bringing them back from your car to the kitchen.

VTGreg · 07-23-2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfiniteNothing

Am I the only one here who brings his own bags into the store. Bringing your own bags in is nice because generally your bags are higher quality so you can loop them over your shoulder and carry more groceries bringing them back from your car to the kitchen.

We have our own bags but forget to bring them half the time. If this becomes a national movement then manufacturers of plastic bags are going to be hurting big time.

Cheesypuff · 07-23-2008, 06:54 PM

wait...my safeway gives me a discount when i bring my own bag. does that mean i get no more discount!??! hehehe

but seriously...

Airencracken · 07-23-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfiniteNothing

Am I the only one here who brings his own bags into the store. Bringing your own bags in is nice because generally your bags are higher quality so you can loop them over your shoulder and carry more groceries bringing them back from your car to the kitchen.

If you're not buying much they can double as a basket as well.

This is a good move.

InfiniteNothing · 07-23-2008, 08:25 PM

Except you look like you're steeling stuff

chrissy · 07-23-2008, 08:39 PM

I carry my own bags into stores. I do sometimes forget them, but for the most part I bring them.

Ren, do they sell nickle candy anymore? I haven't seen that in ages!

and yeah, WM has the "skip bagging" button, but it will only do it so many times before it alerts the person manning the stations to check your cart and do an override.

InfiniteNothing · 07-23-2008, 09:06 PM

Just keep them in the car. After too long, it'll be habit to open your trunk when you get out of the car

chrissy · 07-23-2008, 10:34 PM

I do keep them in the car. When I go in for the weekly/bi-monthly trip, I do remember them. It's when I am going in for "one thing" for that evening's dinner and I pick up 4 more things that I forget them

I need to just stick to the one thing, or bring a bag in no matter what because I usually buy another bag to reuse... I think I have about 20 now. 10 for each car and an insulated cooler bag for each car too. (please remember, I buy for 5 people and 10 bags sometime are not enough)

VTGreg · 07-24-2008, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissy

I do keep them in the car. When I go in for the weekly/bi-monthly trip, I do remember them. It's when I am going in for "one thing" for that evening's dinner and I pick up 4 more things that I forget them

I need to just stick to the one thing, or bring a bag in no matter what because I usually buy another bag to reuse... I think I have about 20 now. 10 for each car and an insulated cooler bag for each car too. (please remember, I buy for 5 people and 10 bags sometime are not enough)

We keep ours in the trunk as well but only remember to pull them out 1 out of every 3 or 4 times. We don't typically go and shop for the week so we are in the grocery store 3 or times a week.

Maarchk · 07-24-2008, 08:28 AM

Trader Joe's has done this for awhile. They sell bags that are woven for a couple bucks or they give you a paper bag. I don't remember the last time they had plastic bags.

So it's in practice there, i guess it's going to be the trend that will eventually sweep the nation.

zippyjuan · 07-24-2008, 09:28 AM

My Safeway/ Vons used to give you credit (maybe a nickle) if you used your own bag. I have been using my own for a long time- before it became cool. During Christmas (this year or last I can't remember) Trader Joe's gave me a free bag for using my own (special promotion). It is still nice to have some sort of plastic bag available for putting drippy meat into. In my beach neighborhood there are plenty of people who ride their bikes to the store and like plastic ones because they can hang them on their handlebars. Some markets like Whole Foods or Henry's are supposed to be getting rid of all bags- paper or plastic. Ireland put a big tax on plastic bags which cut the use there by 90% and raise revenue for the government. I like this idea. People who want to can still use them but pay for the option.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2205419.stm

Quote:

Tuesday, 20 August, 2002, 14:36 GMT 15:36 UK
Irish bag tax hailed success

Stores including Tesco have welcomed the tax

A tax on plastic shopping bags in the Republic of Ireland has cut their use by more than 90% and raised millions of euros in revenue, the government says.
The tax of 15 cents per bag was introduced five months ago in an attempt to curb litter, and the improvement had been immediate and "plain to see", said Environment Minister Martin Cullen.

The levy has been an outstanding success in achieving what it set out to do

Environment Minister Martin Cullen
He said that the 3.5 million euros in extra revenue raised so far would be spent on environmental projects.

The "plastax" is being closely watched by other countries, particularly neighbouring Britain.

Bangladesh has banned polythene bags altogether while Taiwan and Singapore are taking steps to discourage their use.

"The levy has been an outstanding success in achieving what it set out to do," said Mr Cullen.

"Over one billion plastic bags will be removed from circulation while raising funding for future environmentally friendly initiatives."

He added: "It is clear that the levy has not only changed consumer behaviour in relation to disposable plastic bags, it has also raised national consciousness about the role each one of us can, and must play if we are to tackle collectively the problems of litter and waste management."

Windblown litter

The environment ministry estimated that about 1.2 billion free plastic bags were being handed out every year in the republic, leaving windblown bags littering Irish streets and the countryside.

In the three months after the tax was introduced, shops handed out just over 23 million plastic bags - about 277 million fewer than normal, the government said.

Free bags are often discarded thoughtlessly

Shoppers are being encouraged to use tougher, reusable bags.

The ministry said that if the current trend continued, the tax would bring in 10 million euros in a full year.

Other countries around the world are also taking action to curb plastic bag litter.

In March, Bangladesh banned polythene bags after it was found that they were blocking drainage systems and had been a major culprit during the 1988 and 1998 floods that submerged two-thirds of the country.

Taiwan and Singapore are also moving to ban free plastic bags and in South Africa they have been dubbed the "national flower" because so many can be seen flapping from fences and caught in bushes.

And then there is this:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...sn=001&sc=1000

Quote:

Continent-size toxic stew of plastic trash fouling swath of Pacific Ocean
Justin Berton, Chronicle Staff Writer

Friday, October 19, 2007

At the start of the Academy Award-winning movie "American Beauty," a character videotapes a plastic grocery bag as it drifts into the air, an event he casts as a symbol of life's unpredictable currents, and declares the romantic moment as a "most beautiful thing."

To the eyes of an oceanographer, the image is pure catastrophe.

In reality, the rogue bag would float into a sewer, follow the storm drain to the ocean, then make its way to the so-called Great Pacific Garbage Patch - a heap of debris floating in the Pacific that's twice the size of Texas, according to marine biologists.

The enormous stew of trash - which consists of 80 percent plastics and weighs some 3.5 million tons, say oceanographers - floats where few people ever travel, in a no-man's land between San Francisco and Hawaii.

Marcus Eriksen, director of research and education at the Algalita Marine Research Foundation in Long Beach, said his group has been monitoring the Garbage Patch for 10 years.

"With the winds blowing in and the currents in the gyre going circular, it's the perfect environment for trapping," Eriksen said. "There's nothing we can do about it now, except do no more harm."

The patch has been growing, along with ocean debris worldwide, tenfold every decade since the 1950s, said Chris Parry, public education program manager with the California Coastal Commission in San Francisco.

Ocean current patterns may keep the flotsam stashed in a part of the world few will ever see, but the majority of its content is generated onshore, according to a report from Greenpeace last year titled "Plastic Debris in the World's Oceans."

The report found that 80 percent of the oceans' litter originated on land. While ships drop the occasional load of shoes or hockey gloves into the waters (sometimes on purpose and illegally), the vast majority of sea garbage begins its journey as onshore trash.

That's what makes a potentially toxic swamp like the Garbage Patch entirely preventable, Parry said.

"At this point, cleaning it up isn't an option," Parry said. "It's just going to get bigger as our reliance on plastics continues. ... The long-term solution is to stop producing as much plastic products at home and change our consumption habits."

Parry said using canvas bags to cart groceries instead of using plastic bags is a good first step; buying foods that aren't wrapped in plastics is another.

After the San Francisco Board of Supervisors banned the use of plastic grocery bags earlier this year with the problem of ocean debris in mind, a slew of state bills were written to limit bag production, said Sarah Christie, a legislative director with the California Coastal Commission.

But many of the bills failed after meeting strong opposition from plastics industry lobbyists, she said.

Meanwhile, the stew in the ocean continues to grow.

The Great Pacific Garbage Patch is particularly dangerous for birds and marine life, said Warner Chabot, vice president of the Ocean Conservancy, an environmental group.

Sea turtles mistake clear plastic bags for jellyfish. Birds swoop down and swallow indigestible shards of plastic. The petroleum-based plastics take decades to break down, and as long as they float on the ocean's surface, they can appear as feeding grounds.

"These animals die because the plastic eventually fills their stomachs," Chabot said. "It doesn't pass, and they literally starve to death."

The Greenpeace report found that at least 267 marine species had suffered from some kind of ingestion or entanglement with marine debris.

Chabot said if environmentalists wanted to remove the ocean dump site, it would take a massive international effort that would cost billions.

But that is unlikely, he added, because no one country is likely to step forward and claim the issue as its own responsibility.

Instead, cleaning up the Great Pacific Garbage Patch is left to the landlubbers.

"What we can do is ban plastic fast food packaging," Chabot said, "or require the substitution of biodegradable materials, increase recycling programs and improve enforcement of litter laws.

"Otherwise, this ever-growing floating continent of trash will be with us for the foreseeable future."

How to help
You can help to limit the ever-growing patch of garbage floating in the Pacific Ocean. Here are some ways to help:

Limit your use of plastics when possible. Plastic doesn't easily degrade and can kill sea life.

Use a reusable bag when shopping. Throwaway bags can easily blow into the ocean.

Take your trash with you when you leave the beach.

Make sure your trash bins are securely closed. Keep all trash in closed bags.

Trash is also a problem in parts of San Francisco Bay. For an interactive map showing some of the worst locations, go to www.savesfbay.org/baytrash.

- Justin Berton jberton@sfchronicle.com

This article appeared on page W - 8 of the San Francisco Chronicle

Airencracken · 07-24-2008, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfiniteNothing

Except you look like you're steeling stuff

Ha ha ha. Nah, I do it at Traders all the time!

InfiniteNothing · 07-24-2008, 03:17 PM

And with your scraggly beard, I imagine some rentacop is just looking for an excuse to taze you

mojo · 07-25-2008, 07:14 AM

i don't carry my bags to the store with me, but most shopping i do these days i don't need a bag for. and i tell them i don't want one when they try to give me one and i don't need it. i don't like bags a whole lot...they take up too much space.

also h9 when i'm driving down the road and see the obligatory bag floating around or something

07-23-2008, 01:15 PM	#3
attgig Chief of Naval Operations Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: the ghetto's of bawlmo' Posts: 10,881	not a good time to be a plastic bag manufacturer... __________________

07-23-2008, 01:29 PM	#4
Maarchk Rear Admiral Lower Half Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Where the east meets the west. Posts: 2,698	I think DF, that he means if you go to those auto checkers, it's going to assume a minimum of 1 bag and ding you 25 cents when you are trying to get in and out real fast. I know as an occasional child who loves sugar, i like the auto-checkers because they are way faster than waiting on old people. So maybe it only dispenses bags if you ask? but that wouldn't work cause you'd need it to dispense before you started and then what if you backed out of the transaction. Yeah messy... I use plastic bags to take out my food trash with. cause oil and grease and fast off chickens usually leaks through a paper bag. So we will stop 1 form of the plastic bag and then i'll have to go buy glad plastic bags for home? I am going to start stockpiling immediately! __________________ "The girl is crafty like ice is cold." "I left my heart in san francisco... And my liver at Moe's Tavern." A real friend is one who listens to you as much as they talk to you.

07-23-2008, 02:47 PM	#5
Layla Lieutenant Junior Grade Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Chula Vista Posts: 97	I'd think it'd be a little sticky at the self check-outs regardless whether you have one item or 15, because the machine would have to somehow determine how many bags you need. I know that when I bag my own groceries, I use far less bags then when a clerk does it for me. __________________ *2008 3-Day Walker!* *DC #45*

07-23-2008, 03:26 PM	#8
InfiniteNothing Fleet Admiral Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 9,430	Am I the only one here who brings his own bags into the store. Bringing your own bags in is nice because generally your bags are higher quality so you can loop them over your shoulder and carry more groceries bringing them back from your car to the kitchen. __________________ I guess that would mean turning signatures back on. I haven't had them on for ~2 years.

07-23-2008, 06:54 PM	#10
Cheesypuff Vice Admiral Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Cali, but missing Hong Kong and Texas Posts: 4,391	wait...my safeway gives me a discount when i bring my own bag. does that mean i get no more discount!??! hehehe but seriously... __________________ Life is like toilet paper, long and useful! The stars at night, are big and bright clap 4x deep in the heart of TEXAS!

07-23-2008, 08:25 PM	#12
InfiniteNothing Fleet Admiral Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 9,430	Except you look like you're steeling stuff

07-23-2008, 08:39 PM	#13
chrissy Vice Admiral Join Date: May 2000 Location: OKC Posts: 4,939	I carry my own bags into stores. I do sometimes forget them, but for the most part I bring them. Ren, do they sell nickle candy anymore? I haven't seen that in ages! and yeah, WM has the "skip bagging" button, but it will only do it so many times before it alerts the person manning the stations to check your cart and do an override.

07-23-2008, 09:06 PM	#14
InfiniteNothing Fleet Admiral Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 9,430	Just keep them in the car. After too long, it'll be habit to open your trunk when you get out of the car

07-23-2008, 10:34 PM	#15
chrissy Vice Admiral Join Date: May 2000 Location: OKC Posts: 4,939	I do keep them in the car. When I go in for the weekly/bi-monthly trip, I do remember them. It's when I am going in for "one thing" for that evening's dinner and I pick up 4 more things that I forget them I need to just stick to the one thing, or bring a bag in no matter what because I usually buy another bag to reuse... I think I have about 20 now. 10 for each car and an insulated cooler bag for each car too. (please remember, I buy for 5 people and 10 bags sometime are not enough)

07-24-2008, 08:28 AM	#17
Maarchk Rear Admiral Lower Half Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Where the east meets the west. Posts: 2,698	Trader Joe's has done this for awhile. They sell bags that are woven for a couple bucks or they give you a paper bag. I don't remember the last time they had plastic bags. So it's in practice there, i guess it's going to be the trend that will eventually sweep the nation.

07-24-2008, 03:17 PM	#20
InfiniteNothing Fleet Admiral Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 9,430	And with your scraggly beard, I imagine some rentacop is just looking for an excuse to taze you

07-25-2008, 07:14 AM	#21
mojo Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: about 2 min away Posts: 7,800	i don't carry my bags to the store with me, but most shopping i do these days i don't need a bag for. and i tell them i don't want one when they try to give me one and i don't need it. i don't like bags a whole lot...they take up too much space. also h9 when i'm driving down the road and see the obligatory bag floating around or something __________________ these matches say you're lying

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