Y2J

Since we're debating religions here, might as well add to it:

For 2,000 years, Jews have rejected Christianity. Why?
Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:


1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2) Christianity contradicts Jewish theology.
3) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
4) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
5) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.
It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual lives.



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1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel - uniting the entire human race as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.



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2) CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY

A. GOD AS THREE?
The Christian idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the One-ness of God every day, writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before he dies.

In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal sins which a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.




B. MAN AS GOD?
Christians believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is Incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His Unity and His Divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).

Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, with normal physical attributes just like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)




C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?
Basic to Christian belief is the idea that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."

In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)




D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD
Christianity often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest Christian woman is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations.

By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.

The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World-to-Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don't retreat from life, we elevate it.



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3) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET
Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE) the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, thus prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.




B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!




C. TORAH OBSERVANCE
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvahs remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)



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4) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS
Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.


A. VIRGIN BIRTH
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from a verse in Isaiah describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.




B. CRUCIFIXION
The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."




C. SUFFERING SERVANT
Christians claim that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus.

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of lord Jesus.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."



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5) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION
Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as a basis for establishing a religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):


The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.
"What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, 'Face to face, God spoke with you...' The Torah also states: 'God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today.'" (Deut. 5:3)

Judaism is not miracles. It's the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child.



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6) JEWS AND GENTILES
Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a "House for all nations." The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. (In fact, the Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they'd never have destroyed it.)

Jews have never actively sought converts to Judaism because the Torah prescribes a righteous path for gentiles to follow, known as the "Seven Laws of Noah." Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these basic moral laws earns a proper place in heaven.

For further study about the Seven Laws of Noah, see:


Bnei Noah of Fort Worth

Path of the Righteous Gentile


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7) BRINGING THE MESSIAH
Indeed, the world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. War and pollution threaten our planet; ego and confusion erode family life. To the extent we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will long for the redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions a Jew is asked on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?"

How can we hasten the coming of the Messiah? The best way is to love all humanity generously, to keep the mitzvahs of the Torah (as best we can), and to encourage others to keep them as well.

Despite the gloom, the world does seem headed toward redemption. One apparent sign is that the Jewish people have returned to the Land of Israel and made it bloom once again. Additionally, a major movement is afoot of young Jews returning to Torah tradition.

The Messiah can come at any moment and it all depends on our actions. God is ready when we are. For as King David says: "Redemption will come today -- if you hearken to His voice."


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Rabbi Shraga Simmons spent his childhood trekking through snow in Buffalo, New York. He has worked in the fields of journalism and public relations, and is now the Editor of Aish.com in Jerusalem.

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topane

They don't because it's not part of their religion. Same reason why Christians don't believe in Buddha.

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ironchef

Good outline there, Y2J.

I don't know a heck of a lot about Judaism, but found it interesting that some of what you mentioned fits into my personal beliefs.

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StonedWheat

Yes that was a good outline y2j. I have a serious question. Can anyone convert to Judaism? I know that may be a stupid question, but I don't know too much about Judaism either.

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m0j0

i'm not a racist....no, that's not it

umm...ok...here goes

i just don't like the idea that a bunch of guys sat around, drinking wine, and deciding what goes in the bible and what does not. i mean, i know that they were supposed to be told by god what goes in and what does not...but that just leaves too much room for error and interpretation with intent to have an effect on life. er...too political, maybe. i dunno...but you know what i mean.

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ArkiStan

maybe they didn't believe in Jeses cause they're smart and they don't believe in crap that didn't/doesn't exist!!






haha just kidding. I always like to play with the often overly sensitive atmosphere of religious threads. Anyway, I'm not that religious, just go to church once in a while with friends. But it was good information know know about Judaism, although I'm currently confused enough with all the different branches of Christianity, Protenstantism, and so on....

zenbooty

Yeah, I always had that logical conundrum in my head, as well. The bible is supposedly the absolute word of God, received by prophets in visions, which they then recorded. The problem is these prophets were human and thus flawed and imperfect (at least flawed in the Christian sense). How can the bible be trusted as the absolute word of God if it was transmitted through an imperfect, error-prone vessel?

That's why I say read all the holy scriptures of as many religions as you can, and find truth in those parts where all religions converge, and try to ignore the corruption that is unique to each. But that's just me talking, anyway.

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Y2J

No its not the same reason. Christianity is based on judiasm, hence old testament and new testament. Buddhism is based on completely different thinking: This world is suffering.
The cause of suffering is desire.
The cessation of suffering is the cessation of desire.
The cessation of desire is achieved through practicing the Noble Eight-fold Path, which includes right speech, right action, right livelihood, etc.

Judaism, by contrast, is a path of total engagement with this world.

And StonedWheat, yes its possible, but it does take a bit of time, as you have to learn about the old testament and be certified by a rabbi

ArkiStan

Can you be an Asian Jew? If so, would you have to marry only other Jewish Jews?

TheLoneGunman

Very religious Jews believe that you must be formally refused on three separate occasions to make sure you are serious about the conversion.

Additionally, it is believed that it is much worse if a convert breaks one of the commandments rather than a natural born Jew because a convert KNEW what laws they were getting into before they converted.

These days, it is becomming very easy to convert under less strict branches of Judaism. This has caused a big debate because up until about 200 years ago there was only one type -- very religious or Orthodox. Then there began a more secular version, Reform and recently Conservative which is in the middle. They also have other very new ones like Reconstructionist (which is more like Jewish in only very basic customs).

Also, Jews are barred from seeking out converts. They used to do this in Biblical times and in many cases it turned out poorly (like all the other attempts at mass conversion by other religions).

If you want really cool answers, just visit http://www.askmoses.com and talk to a very knowledgeable Rabbi LIVE and for free. They are available 24/7 except for Jewish Holidays and the Sabbath (friday night to saturday night)

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Hrudey

I knew an Asian Jew, she was adopted. There is no rule on who can and cannot be Jewish. There are also no laws on who a Jew can and cannot marry. Its more or less based on tradition. But, when a there is a couple, and the male is not jewish, and the woman is, the child will be jewish. Marrying a non-jew (or a goy as us jews like to call them hehe) is basically believed to be a sin and a huge hassle on everyone involved. It is definately not encouraged, and not really accepted by mostly all jews, but there is no law against it. Today many people do it, and it basically depletes the jewish population...theres my 2 cents on the topic..hoped it helped..

[Edited by Hrudey on 05-02-2001 at 04:12 PM]

topane

OK, I guess I sort of went scatterbrained there for a moment...I do see your point. I was trying to oversimplify. It makes more sense now that I've had a few hours to get the remnants from work out of my brain.

Ice-9

Yes.

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AmRivlin

My Father who is a Jew... Married my mother a "goy"? Being raised in this formal situaltion has brought many questions to me and I tend to be Agnostic. Yet this thread has sparked some intrest. I know this thread is backing Judism, yet it sound much more reliable. Not forcing conversion and all. I almost wish my Father had raised me Jewish. To CHristians it is scary to see people turn down Jesus. But Whos to say they are right, and this thread proves that. Once I was told it is a feeling not only knowledge. But the Holy Ghost is part of this story.

The way I see it all religion is an explination of the un describable, yet if Christianity and Judism originate in similar venues then why could it not be possible Christianity is a spin off of the building blocks of Judism. Just some Radicals wanted to sell their story more.

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Nanotech9

can i argue just your first point?....


actually, He did build the third temple... He was the third temple... you remember when He was saying that the temple would be cast down, and He would raise it up again in three days?... well, remember the resurrection? Jesus was killed (temple cast down) and He came back to life on the third day (temple raised back up in 3 days)...

anyways, theres lots of ways to interpret stuff in the Bible, and depending on the way you do it, you can make it mean and say different things, and you can even make the Bible look like it's contradicting itself, especially it passages are taken out of context.

ok, thats all, plz don't falme!

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Y2J

But in judiasm, the sacred temple is a place of worship where a person of any denomination can go and pray. It also is a place where one can gfo for fundreds upon thousands of years. By declaring himself a temple, he took that away from people.

But you understand my point in not believing that jesus is a temple

[Edited by Y2J on 05-03-2001 at 01:45 AM]

VACILLO

Hi All,
Ok this is the way I understand things
Jewish believe that the messiah hasn't come yet
"some have told me Jesus Christ was a great teacher maybe a prophet but not the messiah"
and
Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
Has come like the Lamb
And will Return Like the lion
Also Jesus Christ was Jewish
And in a derogatory way, he was called "King of the Jews"
Matt. 2: 2
Matt. 27: 11
Matt. 27: 29
Matt. 27: 37
Mark 15: 2
And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto him, Thou sayest it.

and a few more
Best Regards
Vacillo

VACILLO

Read John 2

in peticular
John 2:21 {"But he spake of the temple of his body"}

I believe that the human body is sacred and holy and as such it is a temple.

Best Regards
Vacillo

VACILLO

Also Check 1 Cor. 6: 19
{"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"}

Ye are not your own? what does this mean? Look here

1 Cor. 6: 20
{"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s."}

Jesus Christ Paid for Our Sins, Because We couldn't.
Vacillo

VACILLO

C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?
Basic to Christian belief is the idea that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."

In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)
-----------------------
I pray using this way
1.}Our father in Heaven, or Dear hevenly Father
2.}We Thank thee..."For what you are thankful for
3.}We Ask thee... "Protection, Guidance, etc..
4.}I close with {"In the Name Of Jesus Christ Amen

I do not pray Jesus Christ or to mary but to God though Jesus Christ This is like a proxy
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D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD
Christianity often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest Christian woman is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations.

By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.

The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World-to-Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don't retreat from life, we elevate it.

----------------------
Ok this is a little off the norm here this sounds catholic to me I very much agree that sex in the proper context is one of the most holiest acts
"I believe in the confines of marriage sex is holy"
Look here
Gen. 1: 28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth

Very cool, This earth was created for us.
Intresting point of view eh?
Best Regards
Vacillo

eSDee

Y2J, you seem to be pretty devout in your faith, so no matter what points are presented you are not going to accept it if it contradicts what you believe in. I can respect that, and so should you respect the beliefs of others as well. The truth is we can all recite what we have come to understand as the truth, however since we are each trying to prove something that cannot be proven we are at an impass. Just present your points, and try not to insult others by trivializing their beliefs with ridiculous metaphors.
Thanks.

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Y2J

You're right. i respect everyone's beleifs, and didnt mean to make a mockery. Sorry if I offended anyone

mahalo

I am a jew for jesus.

TheLoneGunman

That is just like Vegetarians for Beef or Virgins for Orgies

Belief in jesus denies a basic principle of Judaism. If you believe in jesus you are therefore NOT Jewish. This is perfectly fine, but please don't call yourself Jewish. (It is similar to Goth people who think by dressing in black and wearing fangs that they become Vampires. You are missing an essential element)

DeepTrout

...religion should act a guide to living morally, not as an end in itself.

y2j, ur sweeping statement on the core Beliefs of all Christians seems 2 belie an ignorance of the gnostic christian traditions, not to mention less common traditions such as the quakers and the shakers. Had you been a christian deconstructing judaism, you might have very well opened yourself up to accusations of anti-semitism.

The whole concept of Israel has been totally ****ed up; it is supposed to be a state of mind, not a physical place. The present situation is a bunch of British bull****.

America was supposed to[and is] the promised land of the jews; it is remarkable how many American do not gnow of their heritage due to the centuries of persecution by the ignorant.

Judaism carries on the traditions of the much older universal religion, while adding on dogmas just as any other system of belief that has survived so long. It is up to the penitant seeker of truth to sift the wheat from the shaft; an unbiased understanding of all the world's traditions can be priceless in achieving this goal.

Christ was not to be worshipped; he was a wakeup call to the world.

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welfareloser

hmm... i kinda got lost after the word "spake"...

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TheLoneGunman

W T F ?????

Uhm, No!!

It is very specific in the Bible when it describes various PHYSICAL locations in ISRAEL that were given to the Jews. These locations are easily identifiable and exist today.

Jews have lived in Israel longer than there have been people in Britain. I can trace my lineage back to nearly Biblical times (published and accepted charts go back to about 1023 and then other charts that seem to parallel it go back to Temple times) and I am not alone in this regard. Our connection to the land is not related to the UN, the British or anyone else.

America has nothing to do with Jews.

m0j0

i am still on the quakers and shakers thing

DeepTrout

Israel or America?

TheLoneGunman

Using your same logic, I can ask:

Where are there more Christians?

In Prisons or in Israel?

Therefore, the place for Christians is prison.



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