Burzhui

originally posted by BrewMaster

Well how about we go way back, i mean way back when jews lived there before anyone else, and Philistines came and tried to fight the jews, however the Jews prevailed... so then the romans came and conqured the jews and called the land pallestine (from the word phelestines) just to rub it in? And only then your land was formed and guess what.. Jews and Romans lived there... muslims were not allowed, because well they were muslim and the Romans obviously were not.

So you know what pal, that deed for 400 years is nothing.

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Burzhui

Oh yea and for the love of all that is good, don't belittle me, you have absolutely no right, because i have not belittled you. This shows that you can't participate in an adult conversation.

TheLoneGunman

1. Although not aimed at me, I was born in NY and I am a Jew (as if it wasn't obvious)

2. As to why I am here... Many years ago my grandfather lived in Jerusalem (Israel's eternal capitol). As a baby, his brother (would that be my great uncle?) was killed in the fighting with the local Arabs (yes, they didn't mind killing children and babies even back then, but they just hadn't decided to call themselves "palestinians", that happened in the '50s when Nassar suggested that it would be a good political move). Soon after, the British expelled my grandfather (who was still a child) as they were trying to cleanse the area of Jews (similar to the plans of a certain German ruler at the same time)

3. The land did not originally belong to Abraham. This is just like the fact that your house or your car didn't originally belong to you. However, you acquired them and they are now yours. If BrewMaster decided to squat in your house, I am sure you would use force to expell him as well. If he threw rocks at you, I am sure you would use force, up to and including deadly force as that is your right under US, International, and Common Law.

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welfareloser

hmmmm...

all of those f**ked up countries

First and foremost Brewmaster, F*uck you for putting that palestinian flag there

You know what A$$hole, you don't have to read my threads

you use a gimmick such as an oppology (so was your apology just a gimmick to get away with the "feck you and your flag comment?)

more hypocrisy.... you're gettin good at it....

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Burzhui

And yet still i did not belittle him did i?

I am not saying oh people he is just trying so hard but he is so wrong so don't read his stuff, i never said that everyone is entitled to their own oppinion am i correct or welfareloser will have something to say about that too?

Burzhui

Oh no i appologized for a reason,, i still can't stand that flag, but i just said that it was wrong of me to say that he should take it off... that was all i appologized for.

Speedfreak

That guy looks like SuperGreg. I knew there was something wrong with him.
http://www.supergreg.com

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Luxykin007

LOL, speedfreak cracks me up, supergreg ?!?!

Nice

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welfareloser

lord have mercy.

a$$hole is belittling. feck your flag is belittling. you belittled his apology by calling it a mere gimmick.

belittle:be·lit·tle (b-ltl)
tr.v. be·lit·tled, be·lit·tling, be·lit·tles
To represent or speak of as contemptibly small or unimportant; disparage: a person who belittled our efforts to do the job right.
To cause to seem less than another or little: The size of the office tower belittles the surrounding buildings. See Synonyms at decry

the pattern i see here is that israel does nothing wrong, burzhui does nothing wrong, everything is RIGHT in your little world no matter how much evidence bites you in the butt.

you belittled! you disparaged! please just admit that much! it's easy! i swear! i'm not even saying there's anything wrong with belittling someone, just that it is inane for you to deny that you did it!!!!!!

Kenas

I can't believe a country with 94% Muslim population is saying that Zionism is the same as racism, I should then request a hearing about Egypt being a racist country. And the rest of Islamic world from Palestine to Pakistan is racist. And then include China, Russia, and half Africa!

WHO WANTS TO SIGN MY PETITION????

BrewMaster

I feel bad that I checked this thread tonight. Now I'm all bummed out. I know you mean well welfareloser but I think you can give Burzhui a rest. If he doesn't want to admit stuff, leave him alone.

Hey Burzhui no hard feelings? I'm sorry that you felt like I was belittling your comments or your people. I got out of hand. Forgive me.

Can I make one request of the rest of this thread? You obviously don't have to follow it but I think it's worth a try. How about we each try, instead of insulting the other side, make a suggestions about what our OWN side could change to help the current situation in Israel that is getting both of our peoples killed? MAybe we can even share this idea with our family and friends and have PROACTIVE discussions. I know for me when my family talks about the situation there, we just bi*ch about it. It would be nice to do something helpful even though all of us are here in the US.

I'll go first. I think Palestinians could stop bashing the Holocaust and stop calling it the "Jewish excuse" (I know many people who do it, I've done it myself I'm sorry to say) and try to share in the pain of our semite brothers and sisters, the Jews. It was a tragedy that should never be forgotten otherwise, as they say, we're doomed to repeat it. I think this would build unexpected relationships that could lead to peaceful dialogue. Next?

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Burzhui

First of all there is something wrong with belittling someone, and i guess by saying f*ck you and A$$hole you do belittle someone, and i will admit that... Isral is not doing anything wrong, and there are no "facts" as you say that were presented to convince me that they are doing anything wrong, palestine is doing many, many, many, things wrong and Israel is just responding

http://burzhui.tripod.com/temp/1.jpg
nice

wow this is just great isn't it, poor old palestinaians with mortars
http://burzhui.tripod.com/temp/lamdf43466.jpg

explosives
http://burzhui.tripod.com/temp/bomb.jpg

topane

I like the use of "facts" in quotes, it makes me think that any evidence presented that is contrary to your beliefs would be false.
There's a lot of hurt and pent-up anger here, kids. Take the high road. No one's winning over there, and I don't think there will ever be total peace in that part of the world. I don't know that you can ever have peace when no one wants to admit that the other guy's point of view is valid.

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Burzhui

damn it, stupid tripod, i swear the pics were there and i saw them and now it doesn't work anymore... grrr anyone know of a good pic hosting service that is free

BrewMaster

If you got them off of one of the news sites (cnn, msnbc, etc) just link them directly from their page.

Burzhui

Damn it doesn't work it links to the html doc cause the pic is embeded in the java script, i will try to do something at home,

In any case, thanks Brew

BrewMaster

You may already be doing this Burzhui, but what I do is I right click on the picture and open it in a new window if it's in a java applet or one those screwy little windows. Then I right click on the picture in the new window and click "properties." This gives me the url for the pic. If that doesn't work just take the address from the top of the new window and use that as the url. If all else fails, I guess just link to the page where the java script comes up. Good luck.

-The Brew

BrewMaster

Hey Burzhui, did you notice that in the past few posts when we've been trying to get your pics posted that we've been pretty civil to each other and down right gentlemanly. Thanks. It was a welcome bit of fresh air from the previous maddness. I appreciate it. Let's try to keep it up.

-The Brew

Burzhui

krikey, they removed the pics from the slide show... oh well if anyone wants to see them here are the links
http://burzhui.tripod.com/temp/1.jpg
nice

wow this is just great isn't it, poor old palestinaians with mortars
http://burzhui.tripod.com/temp/lamdf43466.jpg

explosives
http://burzhui.tripod.com/temp/bomb.jpg

BrewMaster

Hate to tell you Burzhui but htose links don't show any image.

-The Brew

hyder

Just a fact for Burzhui:
You claimed that Quran guarantees heaven and 50 virgins to suicide bombers; so I just wanted to clarify that.
Quran/Mohammed preached that a person that commits suicide goes straight to hell. So, please verify the things you read before you quote them.


Just some facts:
-Jihad is not just "physical fighting" as portrayed in the media... It is very broad term and I can't define it here. search on some search engine (google.com) to get more info on it.
-Jews were best treated in history under an Islamic Empire.... check out this site... http://users.erols.com/gmqm/toleran1.html
these Umayyads were your "animalistic" arabs too...
- Arabs too are descendants of Abraham... so, don't they also have a claim to that land?

...

Burzhui

No no no, dude not suicide, religious suicide... that is a little different from plin suicide.

And as for Brew's comment, ooops stupid trypod doesn't allow access to seperate directories... which is good but sucks for my purposes

BrewMaster

I've got news (actually history) for you Burzhui, do you know the reason Muslims were "not allowed" to live there? Well the Romans took over some time before 30BC and their reign ended sometime around 100AD (these dates could be slightly off, but you'll get the point). ISLAM DIDN'T BEGIN UNTIL ABOUT 400AD. THEY COULDN'T LIVE THERE BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T EXIST. There was no such thing as Islam when the Romans ruled Palestine. There were arabs there though. SO either you don't know your history or you are lumping all arabs into Muslims which is horribly untrue, or both.

-The Brew

hyder

nowhere in Quran or Hadith have I ever heard about this "religious suicide"!
Please quote any Hadith or anything from Quran that implies that....

Harming your own body is considered a sin in Islam, since the body is considered property of God.

The thing you are probably confusing this with is Jihad... as I said, that is a broad term and does not constitute just physical fighting with others. btw, Jihad does not constitute Suicide.

There is even a Hadith relating a story in which a Sahabi (a companion of the prophet) commits suicide as he is badly injured in a battle and can't bear the pain. The prophet watches that and tells others that he would be sent to hellfire. (I am paraphrasing it here)

Here are my sources:


to be roasted in a fire,

Do not kill yourselves, for Allah is compassionate towards you. Whoever does so, in transgression and wrongfully, We shall roast in a fire, and that is an easy matter for Allah. (an-Nisaa 4:29-30)

forbidden Paradise,

Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak:
The Prophet said, "Whoever intentionally swears falsely by a religion other than Islam, then he is what he has said, (e.g. if he says, 'If such thing is not true then I am a Jew,' he is really a Jew). And whoever commits suicide with piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in the Hell Fire." Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, "A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him." (Sahih Bukhari 2.445)

will be punished in hell by whatever used for suicide,
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire." (Sahih Bukhari 2.446, 2.445)

Verse 5:32 "...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people..."

Verse 8:61 "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."

"Let there be no compulsion (forcing others) in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

Verse 13:22 "Those who patiently persevere, seeking the countenance of their Lord; establish regular prayers; spend out of (the gifts) We have bestowed for their sustenance, secretly and openly; and turn off evil with good: for such there is the final attainment of the (Eternal) Home."

I think the above would be enough... please refrain from accusing religion here, based on false data.
Would you like it if I said Jewish religion allows the same and rewards it? (without bcking it up with information in Torah etc.)

here are a few more sites to look over for more information:
http://www.submission.org/terrorism.html -- about terrorism and Jihad
http://thetruereligion.org/m12.htm

Note: Islam does allow to fight back when you are being oppressed:
[22:39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them.
which is what you see in these oppressed countries.

-H

BrewMaster

hyder thanks for educating us. thanks you for bringing EVIDENCE which is what this thread is sorely lacking. Anyway, what are the suicide bombers thinking then? How do they justify what they're doing? What do you think about those groups? Since you're the only one here who REALLY KNOWS anything about Islam, I'm intersted in what you have to say.

-The Brew

milksheikh

Irrespective of whether terrorism is good or bad (personally, I think it is bad, but have difficulty seeing it as that different from "allowable" military action), I have to comment that I find it interesting when suicide bombers are described as "cowardly", whereas pilots firing missiles into buildings from thousands of feet away are not. Perhaps I don't understand what cowardly actually means...

BrewMaster

I agree with you milksheikh and I think that's a good point. I don't think terrorism is cool, but I also think military action is whack too. No one really wins when either is used.

Kenas

I have not visited this site for a few days now, but it seems a bit calmer. That is good. I wish current situation in Mid-East would be just a forum "fight".
I have to reply to many of the things that have been said in this forum, and I will try not to forget anything.
Since we are discussing history here (and I like it better) I will share some of the historic facts as well. I just want to say that as some one here already realised English is not my first language. And the historic facts that I have I will try to translate with my best knowledge.
First of all, BrewMaster Islam as a religion could not begin before Muhammad was born, Muhammad received(or wrote) the Koran in the beginning of the 7th century. Muhammad was born aprox. in 570.
Unfortunately, i have never seen a complete translation of Koran in either English or my native language. That is why I can't be exact, but I have read some fragments that were translated by historians. Some of those facts as the matter of fact were brought to us by hyder. But the site where he got the quotes, is not whole Koran.
There are definitely a lot of peace talk and love in Koran, just like it is in a Torah, or Bible, as the matter of fact there are a lot of things are taken from the Torah and the new testament. However there is also what Burzhui is referring to, about suicide. From what I've read, for a Muslim to get to a paradise, he needs to destroy enemies of religion. Enemy means whoever is not Muslim. To destroy the enemy he has to either kill him, make him a slave and convert, or convert the non-Muslim. Kazavat- big war, and Jihad- local war is a great way to destroy the enemies. Now what happens to a "warrior". In Koran it says that the way to paradise is like a bridge, which is sharp like a sword. For you to get to the paradise you have to put as many enemy souls(see above) on that bridge on it as it possibly can, so they to paradise would be smoother. If the warrior dies young in the for the belief(!) and kills an enemy the prophet Muhammad walks the martyr to the paradise right away. What hyder wrote before, is true! only if you are Muslim. The idea is don’t kill your brother.
I am sure are more such fact that I can't now remember (2:00 a.m.) but I will post them as they come, if I am not too lazy to type.

Another things, about Palestine:
The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what are now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century A.D., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name. Yehoshua Porath, The Emergence of the Palestinian-Arab National Movement, 1918-1929
Arabs until 8th century were just Bedouin tribes, with many different religion. Until Muhammad’s idea of uniting all the Arabs together. Word Arab comes from Arabian peninsula, Europeans were first to call that Bedouins. But Jews were also from Arabian peninsula, except Jews were from north and Arabs from south. After all, people were there before the religion.

And now for BrewMaster proposal, I think that Israel should stop any use of weapons, as soon as Palestinians stop theirs, leave the Palestine and go back to Peace talks.
What Palestinians should have done, is to take what Barak was giving, 98% of what they wanted. It would be much easier now and we would not have to go back to history

Burzhui

Beautifly Put Kenas, couldn't have said it better myself