johnnymk

I rarely top off my fuel tank. But I decided to recently when I saw some gas that wss a slight bargain. I clicked on the trip meter and then filled it up again after running nearly 250 miles. I repeated it and discovered that my 4 cylinder Breeze is getting a little under 20 MPG. I should be getting at least 22 MPG around town.

I blame it on the 10% ethanol that is being added to the gasoline.

Guess who benefits from all of this.. the farmers and big companies like ADM. We consumers are paying big bucks to gain absolutely nothing. It's a zero sum gain for motorists and America.

BAH.. another Government decision going awry.

InfiniteNothing

Well, there is some benefit to us. Notably, it reduces our need to be entangled in the mid east.

johnnymk

No, not really..If 10% ethanol is added and it reduces mileage by 10%, then there is no reduction of foreign fuel.

InfiniteNothing

That would imply the ethanol isn't burning wouldn't it?

mechmike0034

Ethanol contains fewer BTUs of energy per unit of measure than gasoline.

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Maarchk

If what he is saying is true, than ethanol is reducing the effectiveness of gasoline. Which is really scary. but i imagine its possible. Where are you getting this magical fuel from so i can stay away?

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johnnymk

From what i have read, it is currently mandated at around 3% minimum, although around here, the pumps are saying that it contains up to 10%.

From this Car and Driver article, http://www.caranddriver.com/features...omy-page7.html

it claims that E85 fuel which is 85% ethanol caused a 30% reduction in fuel mileage. Assuming a ratio of 3:1, then at 10%, admittedly, the fuel mileage would suffer only about 3-4%. However, it takes a lot of energy to produce ethanol, plus the government is subsidizing ethanol.

Maarchk

Wow good article... Another illustration of poor government decisions at work. Hmm and you are right, i bet the factories creating ethanol use more and polute more than we would if we just ran on straight gasoline. We totally need a new source of power that isn't coal, oil, and stuff like that... Why dont we put mad money towards better solar powers..

InfiniteNothing

No, it can't significantly reduce the effectiveness of gas assuming the octane rating stays the same. Usually, when they switch to the ethanol blend here in Cali, gas prices drop $0.05-$0.10

InfiniteNothing

Additional pollution might be tollerable if it gets us out of the mid east.

WhiskeyPapa

Remove farmers from that equation. Yes, it's another market for corn, but it certainly hasn't increased the price of corn.

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BigJon

I get so confused when it comes to this whole ethanol issue. If adding ethanol reduces the price of gas, but also reduces the gas milage, which in-turn increases the usage of gas, which increases the price of gas....I just don't see why we even bothered in the first place.

If this is really the case, then how the heck did this idea get approved? You'd think all the scientists in the world would let the government know that they are making a mistake.

Ugh...it makes my head hurt.

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InfiniteNothing

It reduces gas mileage but not enough to offset the beneficial decrease in oil derived gas use. Also, gas demand is seen as having a steep slope implying cheaper gas doesn't significantly increase consumption.

Jeffbx

Plus it's better for the environment - burns much cleaner than fossil fuels, and boosts the octane rating as well.

But if your goal is just cheaper gas, ethanol is not a good solution.

InfiniteNothing

And your car exaust will smell like french fries!

BigJon

I see...so we're really just doing it more on an environmental standpoint rather than helping with the current gas price craze.

Markel

I think you're mixing up your fuel sources.

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Prngr44

I run E85 in my truck as often as I can. While I don't see anywhere near 30% decline in fuel efficiency, I do see about a 5% noticeable drop (I'm anal about MPGs.)

I think the benefit of cleaner air due to its use along with the reduced need of oil from "over there" to make it work makes me feel a lot better.

Even my state's governor (IL) just announced a multi Billion dollar effort to increase the state's output of ethanol based fuel along with coal and other oil alternatives. (You can use many different items for ethanol extraction, not just corn.)

I'm not a tree huggin' hippie, but I definitely think we're too dependant on oil and even though my deliberate use of E85 amounts to .00000001% of the big picture, it's a start.

AlpineJay

I've noted the MPG drop on my car as well - around 5-10% depending on driving conditions. Gas here in the northeast is usually 10% ethanol.

What's interesting is that my coworker says her mechanic claimed that her Saab 9-5 wagon is being flaky with the check engine light due to the ethanol fuel. To my knowledge, her car is a turbo and the mechanic says it's got an adverse effect on forced induction systems, which I don't really buy. Can anybody confirm or deny this claim?

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WhiskeyPapa

Do you have trouble finding E85? We have more than 50% of all E85 stations here in Minnesota, so it's easy to find here, but I imagine it can get difficult to find in other states.

I'm currently looking for a used Ford Taurus with the flex-fuel option.

guiseppewv

No, like popcorn!!!!

Actually it is bio-diesel that smells like fried food b/c that is where most of the bio-diesel comes from - used restaurant fryer oil.

guiseppewv

So at 10% you have a drop in fuel efficiency of 3.5% but you are still using 10% less gasoline, so you actually consume 6.5% less gasoline. If your car is only getting 20 mpg and you usually get 22 then there is something else wrong with your car. There are other factors that need to be taken into account too.

Also, once we start producing ethanol not from corn but from cellulose it will be more beneficial to the environment and in our quest to remove the "power" from the mid-east.

guiseppewv

My guess: Usually forced induction engines require higher octane fuel and b/c ethanol has an octane of around 105 I would say that adding ethanol shouldn't have an adverse affect on forced induction engines. Just my guess, though.

mechmike0034

I can't confirm or deny it, but it sounds an awful lot like "I can't find the problem so lets blame the gas" to me...

InfiniteNothing

Probably just a sampling error. Different gas pumps close at different times, different driving conditions, etc.

AlpineJay

Right. That's what I guessed. The MIL on those Saabs are known to be pretty flaky, too. Comes on for little to no apparent reason...

InfiniteNothing

Maybe to earn some maintenance revenue. "Yeah, that's going to be a $120 diagnostic."

johnnymk

I just made a guess using the ratio for E85. Who knows, real world figures may be on the low or high side of 3.5%.

I am definitely going to find more information about this.

EDIT: After reading a few articles, I am wondering if I should just replace my oxygen sensor. It may be giving a false reading to the computer. The car has 82,000 miles on it.

Prngr44

Yeah, in the St. Louis area there's only 2 stations within a 50 mile radius that carry it. I keep lobbying my local gas station to start carrying because the state provides incentives (rebates and tax credits) to stations that carry it. Hopefully with this statewide initiative to increase production I'll start seeing more places I can just gas up at instead of having to take a trip just to get it.

WhiskeyPapa

I have three stations that carry E85 within a mile of my office.