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  1. #1
    Vice Admiral Cheesypuff's Avatar
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    comment on the 600,000+ dead

    I know some of you may look at alternet and possibly negate everything I'm going post. but here is the article

    http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/43224/

    According to the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, George Bush's lies have killed not 30,000 innocent Iraqis, as the president not long ago estimated, but nearly 22 times that amount, or 655,000. Neither the Pentagon, nor much of the mainstream media have made much attempt to make their own counts -- it's just not that important to anyone. So how has the U.S. media reported on these shocking-albeit-necessarily-imprecise findings, based on door-to-door surveys in 18 provinces, by the experts trained in this kind of thing? The actual methods included obtaining data by eight Iraqi physicians during a survey of 1,849 Iraqi families -- 12,801 people -- in 47 neighborhoods of 18 regions across the country. The researchers based the selection of geographical areas on population size, not on the level of violence. How strict were their standards? They asked for death certificates to prove claims -- and got them in 92 percent of the cases. Even so, the authors say that the number could be anywhere from 426,000 to 800,000.

    Well, Greg Mitchell has written two columns on the topic for Editor & Publisher and he finds, here and here, that:

    * The Associated Press casts a very skeptical eye on the study, emphasizing the views of one "expert" Anthony Cordesman, (as the AP describes him) who charges that it is nothing but "politics," with the November election approaching.

    * The Washington Post, meanwhile, interviewed Ronald Waldman, an epidemiologist at Columbia University who worked at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for many years. He called the Johns Hopkins survey method "tried and true" and added that "this is the best estimate of mortality we have."

    * Sarah Leah Whitson, an official of Human Rights Watch in New York, told the Post, "We have no reason to question the findings or the accuracy" of the survey.

    * Frank Harrell Jr., chairman of the biostatistics department at Vanderbilt University, told the Associated Press the study incorporated "rigorous, well-justified analysis" of the data.

    * Richard Garfield, a public health professor at Columbia University who works closely with a number of the authors of the report, told The Christian Science Monitor: "That's exactly wrong. There is no discrediting of this methodology. I don't think there's anyone who's been involved in mortality research who thinks there's a better way to do it in unsecured areas. I have never heard of any argument in this field that says there's a better way to do it."

    * The sampling "is solid. The methodology is as good as it gets," said John Zogby, whose polling agency, Zogby International, has done several surveys in Iraq since the war began. "It is what people in the statistics business do." Zogby said similar survey methods have been used to estimate casualty figures in other conflicts, such as Darfur and the Congo.

    I recall seeing on The Daily Show that when Bush got done playing around with Suzanne Malveaux and her fashion statement that day, she asked him about the study. He replied that "their methodology has been pretty well discredited." This is a bald-faced lie, of course. But here's my question. Were there any follow-ups? Or was the purpose of the question merely to get the president on the record without holding him responsible for anything at all, even the unnecessary murder of hundreds of thousands of people? What the hell kind of society kills all these people and cannot be bothered to care? Cannot be bothered to count them and when someone does, risking their lives in the process, lies to discredit them -- and no one cares about that either?

    A Republican political consultant seeks to discredit the survey in The Wall Street Journal today, here, and the madman, Hitchens, writes in Slate: "The Lancet figures are almost certainly inflated, not least because they were taken from selective war-torn provinces. But there is no reason why they may not come to reflect reality more closely. It is a reminder of the nature of the enemy we face, and not only in Iraq, and a very clear picture of the sort of people who would have a free hand in Iraq if the coalition were to depart." In fact, the first claim is flat-out false.

    The study specifically did not pick particularly violent provinces, as Hitchens could have discovered if he looked at the study, not that he gives any impression of having any experience with this type of statistical sampling. But even so, the sanctions were a social, moral, and epidemiological catastrophe as well. I never supported them either. The sad fact is that Hussein could have been contained militarily without all of these people dying unnecessarily. Easily. But our leaders couldn't prove themselves sufficiently macho for chickenhawk neocons to take the necessary steps, and so we have all this blood on our collective hands, to say nothing of our own soldiers' deaths, an increased terrorist threat, a trillion dollars wasted, and the hatred of the world toward our citizens.

    I just found this article to be interesting. YES...I know it's left wing media. But for all who oppose left wing media...take it with a grain of salt.
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    Admiral guiseppewv's Avatar
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    -If they got the death certs in 92% of the cases then how does their number range from 426,000 to 800,000?

    -It is a "bold-faced lie" not a "bald-faced lie" edit: I looked this up online and I stand corrected - I guess it can be said either way.
    Last edited by guiseppewv; 10-22-2006 at 06:31 PM.

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    Admiral Houdini's Avatar
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    Bah. For an article starting with a premise of "Bush's lies" and continuing with a reference to the "Daily Show," I find that it may be, well, maybe a little biased and may have its own agenda, no?

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    Vice Admiral Cheesypuff's Avatar
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    I gave a disclaimer saying this is leftwing article
    Life is like toilet paper, long and useful!
    The stars at night, are big and bright *clap 4x* deep in the heart of TEXAS!

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    Picture of the Day Guru zippyjuan's Avatar
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    You can argue over the exact figure, but a lot of people have died and are dying in Iraq. Our government does not want any figures because the public may react negatively if they knew how many were being killed. They claim to not even try to keep track. It would be difficult to do so anyways. I heard an interview with a female Iraqi reporter that said that even Iraq wants to not let true numbers out about people being killed in the insurgency so that it does not sound as bad as it is.
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    Admiral Houdini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zippyjuan
    You can argue over the exact figure, but a lot of people have died and are dying in Iraq. Our government does not want any figures because the public may react negatively if they knew how many were being killed. They claim to not even try to keep track. It would be difficult to do so anyways. I heard an interview with a female Iraqi reporter that said that even Iraq wants to not let true numbers out about people being killed in the insurgency so that it does not sound as bad as it is.
    I'm sure it is bad, but it's not as if we're targeting civilians. We're targeting those who are targeting civilians. Hopefully we'll make a bigger dent into their infrastructure soon.

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    Picture of the Day Guru zippyjuan's Avatar
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    I hope so too. We go in and clear out an area and not long afterwards the area is crawling with them again. Things have been going nowhere fast. There seems to be no shortages in killers in Iraq.
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    Chief of Naval Operations InfiniteNothing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guiseppewv
    -It is a "bold-faced lie" not a "bald-faced lie" edit: I looked this up online and I stand corrected - I guess it can be said either way.
    Huh, neither of those really make sense

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    Chief News Editor & Master of His Domain LPMiller's Avatar
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    well, it could be an italicised lie.
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    Old Skooler Numba 1 eSDee's Avatar
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    I saw this documentary called Why We Fight, and it stated that in the first 6 months of the Iraq War we dropped 50 "precision" bombs. It said that not one hit their intended target. Not sure how truthful that is, but it does bring up a good point. We are told that these laser guided precision weapons are incredible and have pinpoint accuracy. However, we are taking the weapon-manufacturers' word for it. Plus, having a thousand pound bomb land next door to a building full of civilians is still gonna have quite a few innocent casualties.
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    Admiral Houdini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eSDeeLoco
    I saw this documentary called Why We Fight, and it stated that in the first 6 months of the Iraq War we dropped 50 "precision" bombs. It said that not one hit their intended target. Not sure how truthful that is, but it does bring up a good point. We are told that these laser guided precision weapons are incredible and have pinpoint accuracy. However, we are taking the weapon-manufacturers' word for it. Plus, having a thousand pound bomb land next door to a building full of civilians is still gonna have quite a few innocent casualties.
    Yeah, but I doubt those figures. I've seen some figures and footage from the few dozen guys who kicked Taliban ass with lots of close-air support, both satellite guided and laser painted. Even some of the Northern Alliance guys were completely speechless when one of our guys looked through the laser vision system, painted a target from a couple of hundred yards away and it blew up a few seconds later. Some of those guys actually thought that we had some sort of magic uber-tech visor that could blow up stuff, since they couldn't see the bombs dropping from airplanes too high up to see. Hell, there's one account of our sending bomb _under_ a bridge to kill some running Taliban sympathizers who were scrambling to get out of the country and were hiding under a bridge. Unthinkable 15-20 years ago, except for Powell's famous statement while watching a guided bomb blast through his "counterpart's" window.

    Our "smart bombs" have been proven in the past, and the JDAM system - in my opinion one of the coolest idea - just adding a guided system to a conventional drop bomb to save money - also looks pretty good on paper and supposedly in action.

    At least we have the technology to hit things with more precision than ever before. If we have sats that can resolve a cigarette pack, I have a hard time believing that every one of our guided ordnance missed. Compared to any past battles, from Vietnam to Dresden to dive bombers in WWI, we sure do a helluva lot better, and minimalize civilian and US/Brit/Iraqi military casualties.

    Of course, some will miss. Of course civilians will be killed. Of course we'll lose people on our side. But we don't target civilians, we mourn their losses with them, and do our best to keep it clean with respect to our soldiers' losses. We lost more people in a day in hours in, say, Iwo Jima than we've lost in 3+ years in Iraq. I feel as bad as anyone else, but in the grand scheme of things related to war, it's been pretty damn clean, and our technology has a lot to do with that. I seriously doubt the failed bomb numbers, as they would be seriously hard to defeat. We even hit some guys the other day in a marijuana field - hidden because evidently dense pot is a good heat absorber. Then we burned the field with flamethrowers, giving our soldiers downwind a buzz.
    Last edited by Houdini; 10-23-2006 at 08:42 PM.

  12. #12
    Picture of the Day Guru zippyjuan's Avatar
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    According to a report, http://www.strategypage.com/iraqless...onslearned.asp

    These aircraft flew 20,753 combat sorties and used 18,467 smart bombs and missiles and 9,251 dumb bombs. Most of the smart bombs were JDAM (6,542) and laser guided (8,618). U.S. Navy ships also fired 802 cruise missiles. There were 153 air launched cruise missiles used, 98 EGBU-27 GPS/Laser Guided bombs and 408 anti-radar missiles. There were 908 guided cluster bombs dropped. Other missiles used include Hellfire (562), Maverick (918), AGM-130 (4), AGM-84 SLAM ER (3) and AGM-54 JSOW (253).

    The dumb bombs were mostly high explosive, but there were also 300 cluster bombs. Cannon were used a lot as well, with 311,597 30mm rounds and 16,901 20mm rounds fired. Thus 68 percent (18,467) of the aircraft weapons use were smart bombs and missiles, versus seven percent (17,000 smart bombs and missiles) during the 1991 Gulf War. But the total number of bombs dropped in 1991 was 227,000, versus only 28,000 in 2003. Total sorties flown (not counting attack helicopters) in 1991 was 108,000, versus 41,404 in 2003. In 1991, 70,000 of the sorties were for combat, versus 20,752 in 2003.
    That is still almost 1000 "dumb bombs" which were mostly high explosive or cluster bombs which can have high collateral damages. Cluster bombs can continue to kill long aftewards if unexploded rounds are found and then go off. The 6,500 JDRAM "smart" bombs are one ton each and can cause lots of outside damage too.
    These weapons need little from the aircraft beyond dropping the bombs within a few kilometers of the target selected by the folks on the ground.
    Most of the attacks were on suspected forces and not Command and Control Centers.
    There were 15,592 sorties against Iraqi ground forces. In comparison, only 1,799 sorties were flown against command and control targets (headquarters and communications) and only 832 against missile and NBC (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical) targets.
    and about half of the force sorties were against the six Republican Guard divisions.

    War is more efficient, but still not as pretty and clean as we are sometimes led to believe. The reported "Smart weapon" failures may have happened in the first Gulf War, but certainly not in the second where they were much better. True Iraqi deaths since the invasion will never be known. Iraq's popluation was about 26 million people.
    Last edited by zippyjuan; 10-23-2006 at 10:45 PM.
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