Help TheCorp Upgrade

[/\/ew \/\/izard]

http://www.realgn.com/jjupgrade.txt
TheCorp everyone's favorite RealGN administrator is upgrading his current crap box. This is a link to his two choices as they stand. Please post advice and ideas here. Let's help TheCorp make the best of $800!!!

[TheCorp]

Hoo boy, I tell one person about that damn upgrade and the world ends up knowing =)

Anyways, yea, just looking to upgrade. So if anyone has any other ideas for components I should get, or ones to replace the ones I have chosen, then just tell me.

Thanx a lot.

[/\/ew \/\/izard]

I told you this would help you out Corp


http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardwa...ro/default.asp
Here is a review for that card. I hope it gives you an idea if you prefer it over the Leadtek card or not. Actually I think that's a terrible review, they don't even compare the MSI card to another brand of Pro Cards. Here let me find you another review. Well after looking around for like half an hour I have concluded that there are VERY few reviews of that card period. To me that's a bad sign, but if you are willing to run the risk I say go for it.

[/\/ew \/\/izard]

Be that as it may
I think that Leadtek has a better name backing it than MSI. I don't know much about the MSI cards but when I can't find a review on a video card it slightly bothers me. Maybe a Kyro card might be a good choice. Kyro2 is pretty good, not Geforce2 Ultra good more like Geforce2 MX good. The deal with the Leadtek card is pretty good, I think that he should stick with that and then buy a Kyro3 when it comes out.

Kyro will destroy nVidia it's ability to do FSAA without having a reduction in frame rates is amazing. FSAA is going to be the next big thing in games so look for cards that will be able to make use of it.

[Rocket2Fun]

Well only one thing comes to my attention as being potentially not a good idea. The IBM 75GXP has been known to have problems... maybe you should consider a IBM 60series
I also think that the Leadtek card is a safer bet since it has been tried and proven to work well.

[Edited by Rocket2Fun on 06-05-2001 at 05:33 PM]

[clutchy]

going schizo on me now aren't u rocket

[Shark]

Okay, I gotta jump in here...

I think the current sweet spot for an Athlon right now is the 1.2 GHz (266 MHz, but if your memory forces you to run at 100MHz, you could set it down to that and "overclock" it back to 1200--or just get the 100 MHz part and save $8)... You can get this chip for about $150 from http://www.tcwo.com.

As an alternative to this, you could grab an 850 Duron and wait for the Palomino--I have heard that it will run on the current KT133A chipsets. $59 for a Duron 850 from http://www.tcwo.com.

The best motherboard out there, IMO, is the MSI K7T Turbo-R. I really liked Abit boards, but their quality control has gone down--their boards are great, though, when you get one that works... I've just had to send back 2 of them in a 4 month period and I'm not going to buy them anymore.

Set your hard drive (more on that recommendation later) as a master on the RAID controller (and set the BIOS to boot to SCSI)... Then configure it as a single drive RAID 0 array. I know this sounds wierd, but it works, and it makes the system VERY fast in DOS/Safe mode. I think the Promise controller provides ATA100 performance in DOS mode, because I've never seen Windows install as fast as this setup, and I've built a lot of machines.
Put your CD and CD-RW drives as masters on separate channels using the regular on-board IDE connectors.

If you use that drive setup, everything will be a master on its own channel. IDE does not support interleaved read/write (it can't do both at the same time), so having all masters eliminates that potential bottleneck (comes in handy when coping CDs, since most people put the HD by itself and the CD-RW as master and CD as slave on the secondary channel).

Only drawback is the onboard sound, but it can be disabled. Also, I don't recall if this board allows you to set the FSB to 266 MHz while the memory stays at 100 MHz, but I wouldn't count on it.

That motherboard costs about $103 from http://www.newegg.com.

Now, on the hard drives... You want something with a 20GB platter. A higher density platter will pass more data across the head in a given time.

So, knowing that and the price/size you were considering, I'd recommend the Western Digital WD400BB... 2 20GB platters, 7200 rpm. ~$135 from http://www.accessmicro.com.

Seems like you've decided on the video card, at ~$135, that's a good choice.

Don't forget that you'll need a good 300W power supply, and a good cpu cooler.

For the powersupply, I'm currently recommending the Enhance Electronics 300W ENP-0730. It's on AMD's recommended list for 1.333 GHz CPUs, and it has 220W combined output (very uncommon for just a 300W unit). Get it here for ~$51 shipped with a cord:
http://www.directron.com/enp0730.html

For the cooler, a good, cheap, quiet one is hard to find, as most sites point you to these coolers with the 7800rpm Delta fans on them and they are sooooo loud. I can't stand them. The ThermalTake Volcano II is a decent performer with out all the noise, and you can get it for just $13 from http://www.openlinx.com.

This whole deal will cost you ~$587 for the 1.2 GHz Athlon, and just $496 for the 850 MHz Duron.

When you consider that you can do the Duron upgrade for the same price as your proposed PIII 850 upgrade, well... the choice looks obvious to me.

I will say that RAM is really cheap right now, and I think it would be silly to upgrade all this and still use your old PC100 RAM. A 256 MB stick of PC133, CL2 can be had direct from http://www.crucial.com and it's guaranteed compatibility for the MSI K7T Turbo-R for just $67.49, free 2 day air shipping. Can't beat that with a stick.

[Edited by Shark on 06-05-2001 at 05:02 PM]

[Apex]

Originally posted by Shark
Now, on the hard drives... You want something with a 20GB platter. Even at 5400 rpm, a 20 GB platter drive keeps up with a 15GB platter, 7200 rpm drive (such as the IBM 75GXP series). Check out this site for more details:
http://www.littlerockcomputer.com/resource3.html

Actually, this is mostly incorrect. A 27gb platter (highest available now, above the 20gb/platter) 5400rpm drive will only keep up with the very oldest lowest density 7200rpm drives. The reason for this?

1. The access time is mostly a function of rotational speed. In most applications, access time tends to play a greater role than throughput.

2. Throughput is actually 3 numbers: Min, Max, and average. With high densities, you raise the max. However, max throughput RARELY plays a part in the overall harddrive speed equation. Min and Average are much more important. That's why though the Seagate Cheetah X15 15,000rpm HD has much lower densities than the Fujitsu and Quantum 10k drives and lower max throughput, it's MUCH faster. The Fujitsu and Quantum will average 20-23mb/sec but the Seagate will never fall below 30mb/sec.

[Shark]

The Western Digital WD600BB is still a good recommendation, though, right?

Originally posted by Apex
1. The access time is mostly a function of rotational speed. In most applications, access time tends to play a greater role than throughput.

Kind of analogous to the way latency plays a greater role in average memory bandwidth than peak bandwidth?

Originally posted by Apex
2. Throughput is actually 3 numbers: Min, Max, and average. With high densities, you raise the max. However, max throughput RARELY plays a part in the overall harddrive speed equation. Min and Average are much more important. That's why though the Seagate Cheetah X15 15,000rpm HD has much lower densities than the Fujitsu and Quantum 10k drives and lower max throughput, it's MUCH faster. The Fujitsu and Quantum will average 20-23mb/sec but the Seagate will never fall below 30mb/sec.

Well, I understand your points, but you phrase it as though the density doesn't matter?? If the disk is more dense, then more data will pass the head in the same rotation, right? Seems like that would increase performance all around, especially compared to a drive of the same rotation speed.

Anyhow, if the ratio is not one-to-one (and as I said, I can understand how it wouldn't be, based on my memory latency analogy), then what is the ratio?

It seems to me you can't just throw density out the window... For example, given two 20 GB drives:
one single platter 5400 rpm, and one quadruple platter 7200 rpm, which one will truly be faster?

Doesn't having 12/3 more density make up for the other drive having 4/3 more rotational speed?

[Edited by Shark on 06-05-2001 at 05:03 PM]

[Bandito]

Hey, did you guys try configuring a system with a P4?

Just curious why the systems were either an Tbird 1.33, or a PIII 850--kinda mismatched performance.

I would go with the Tbird being that you can get Crucial 256MB 2100 ram for under $60 right now.

I filled a shopping cart at googlegear with:

P4 1.4 retail w/ 128 total ram
ASUS P4T i850 Chipset 400Mhz FSB Motherboard
Pioneer DVD-115 16X
IBM Deskstar 60GXP: 40GB ATA/100 7200RPM Hard Drive
ASUS AGP-V7700 GeForce2GTS 32MB DDR Pure

$808 plus shipping and tax--slightly more than the AMD.

I bet shipping be around $20, and I don't pay the tax where I live...

[clutchy]

ok, wow, a non-biased intel user i'm in absolute shock. i really am, he just recommended amd even though he just bought a p4.

respect.

[/\/ew \/\/izard]

Well I started this thread to help get advice for TheCorp before he spent his hard earned money, and I am glad that it's been working out well. I even replied to my own post with two different names hahahahaha... oh well. The point is that TheCorp is getting advice and that's good.

Now on Bandito's statement about the DDR ram, I think that it would be best to wait for DDR2 to come out or to see exactly the outcome of the DDR vs. RDRAM battle. I still sense that some chipset companies might consider a RDRAM+AMD marriage a viable solution for high speed, but because of RDRAMs high cost I don't think it has been considered. RDRAM prices will eventually come down to DDR and SDRAM levels.

I am more interested though on the choice of video card. Will a 32meg Geforce2 Pro be sufficient for use in this system? Would it be better to wait for Geforce3 prices to come out and stick with his current GFSDR? or... Will waiting for the Kyro3 or better uses of the Kyro2 platform be better?

[Edited by /\/ew \/\/izard on 06-05-2001 at 05:31 PM]

[Apex]

Yeah, density definitely does matter, but not as much as little rock computing says. A HUGE density discrepancy will overshadow a 7200/5400rpm difference.

The Western Digital is a reasonably good suggestion. It is not as fast as the IBM Deskstar 60GXP (loses on almost every benchmark available, across the board. The WD also loses to the older Deskstar 75GXP by a good margin), but it's still a good suggestion. However, since the 40GB 60GXP is only $119 plus shipping, getting a slower more expensive HD may not be the wisest decision unless you really need the space.

[Shark]

I wasn't really that aware of the 60GXP series, but after some research on it, I agree that's a better drive than the WD400BB.

I did a lot of hard drive research, actually, and found that it's nearly impossible to judge a drive just by its specifications.

Seek time seems to have more to do with how fast the head can move across the drive.

Latency is mostly dependant on the the rotational speed.

Disk access time is actually a combination of the two (as well as any controller overhead/head switching time).

Internal data transfer rate is a combination of both aureal density and rotational speed.

The cache on the drive can also affect performance quite a bit.

If all that weren't enough, it turns out that the data layout method on the actual platter can affect performance, as well as the order of reading/writing that data in the chosen layout.

Top that off with differences in controller logic, and I find myself unable to determine the faster drive just from viewing specs--it takes real world testing.

x-bit labs seems to know their stuff, and they've done some testing including this 60GXP series review:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/storage/ibm-60gxp/

That pretty well sealed the deal for me... I'm thinking of buying a 60GXP now!

[Edited by Shark on 06-06-2001 at 10:31 AM]

[Apex]

http://www.storagereview.com

You can click on database and directly compare HD models with a bunch of tests.

[Bandito]

Clutchy, I am non-biased when it comes to cpu's. I strictly go by benchmarks and comparability. I didn't really buy the shopping cart, I just filled it out to get a 'real world' price.

Well I don't know as much about hardware as some people do, but I do quite a bit of repair at work and at home when I have time.

We just ordered a boatload of HP computers at work. Out of which we had quite a bit of bad Maxtor hard drives. Not bad at first mind you, but within 3 months. At the same time I don't blame Maxtor, but really maybe UPS? We had countless monitors come in DOA. I think they handled them with gorilla's. or maybe when they said "drop-ship" they meant out of an airplane.

Now I haven't had too much trouble with IBM drives in the past and was quite happy with them. My own personal drives are WD just because of cost and support. They are great at stand alone drives, but they can be a pain to get working with other brand drives.

[TheCorp]

Hehe thanx for all the help guys, I really appreciate it. I think I need to clarify somethings.

First of all, I am definitly getting a 40 gig 60 GXP, its just my list was a tad old in that section. Also, about the video card, well as far as I am concerned the difference between any of the Geforce2 Pros and for that matter a Geforce2 normal are insignificant. We are talking a few frames per second here, at most 10, and I can deal that, considering im trying to save money ;-)

As for the 2 different upgrades, well one was for the lazy jason which just involved sticking a new CPU in and so on. THe other, more expensive one, involves prolly a new case, new PSU (is it really neccesary, I have a 250), new everything pretty much. So it was all a matter of how lazy I was gonna be. I think im gonna spring for the 1.33 266 though with the A7V, I think its worth it, because I dont wanna wait for the Palamino. Heh, you are all thinking, lazy AND impatient? What an awesome combo ;-)

Anywhoo, lastly, no P4s for me, they just really dont do anything for me at this point. So, if anyone has any other suggestions, things I might wanna add to my system, etc etc, then please, by all means, do tell.

[clutchy]

if you're going to get the 1.33 get the a7v133 it's utilizes the 266bus that the normal a7v can't. you probably knew that, but i was just making sure.

the extra memeory bandwidth makes a pretty big difference.
and it's a good substitute for ddr.

definitely worth the extra cash.

yes you do need a 300watt psu, but no you don't need more than 300.