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Thread: Structural Engineers are baffled by the behavior of Twin Towers' collapse

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    Admiral ArkiStan's Avatar
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    Structural Engineers are baffled by the behavior of Twin Towers' collapse

    Behavior of Twin Towers In Collapse Mystifies Experts
    (9/11/01)

    By Nadine M. Post
    of Engineering News Record

    As the nation and the world absorb the events of Sept. 11, there remain more questions than answers. One big one for Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition Inc., the Phoenix, Md.-based implosion consultant, is why the twin towers of the World Trade Center collapsed in such different ways, after both were compromised by airplanes and fire.

    The south tower, which was hit second but collapsed first, failed much like a felled tree, as would have been expected after the plane compromised its exterior columns. But the north tower, similarly hit, "telescoped," says Loizeaux. It failed vertically, he adds, rather than falling over. "I don't have a clue," says Loizeaux, regarding the cause of the telescoping. He wonders whether there was an explosion at the base of the building. "I don't understand," he adds, unless there was another "agency," at work, he says.

    The twin towers were both 110 stories tall. The 1,368-ft-tall north tower, with an antenna on top, was hit by an airplane at 8:45 a.m., above the 70th floor. The second 1,362-ft-tall tower was hit at 9:03 a.m., at a lower elevation. The south tower collapsed at 10 a.m.; the north tower at 10:29 a.m.

    After its upper floors burned for about an hour, the north tower came down in a progressive collapse. "From what I observed on TV, it appeared that the floor diaphragm, necessary to brace the exterior columns, had lost connection to the exterior wall," according to Jon D. Magnusson, chairman-CEO of Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire Inc., Seattle, one of the successor firms of Skilling Ward Christiansen Robertson, structural
    engineer of record for the World Trade Center.

    When the stability was lost, the exterior columns buckled outward, allowing the floors above to drop down onto floors below, overloading and failing each one as it went down, he says. The twin towers, framed in structural steel, had exterior moment frames with 14-in. steel box columns spaced 39 in. on center. The configuration created a complete tube around the building. The central steel core carried gravity loads only. The exterior turbe provided all the lateral resistance. Horizontal steel trusses spanned 60 ft from the exterior wall to the core. Concrete on metal deck completed the floor diaphragm.

    The planes compromised the structural tube and the fires that followed, likely fed by jet fuel, probably burned to temperatures beyond the integrity of the fireproofed steel, which is designed to withstand 1,500 to 1,600° F heat.

    They were part of a seven-building complex designed by architect Minoru Yamasaki that covers eight city blocks. An 800 x 400-ft foundation box, 65-ft-deep and with 3-ft-thick retaining walls, is under more than half the complex, including the twin towers and the adjacent hotel. The complex was completed in phases beginning in 1970 (ENR 7/9/64 p. 36). Major subways, including the PATH trains to New Jersey, pass under the complex.

    Security measures had been tightened at the 12-million-sq-ft World Trade Center complex, which housed approximately 50,000 workers and received thousands of visitors daily, after a terrorist bomb on Feb. 26, 1993. That bomb blew out one section of a north tower basement X-brace between two of the perimeter columns. The blast ripped out sections of three structural slabs in the basement levels between the north tower and the hotel, threatening the structural integrity of the foundation box. It did little damage to the north tower's structural tube, other than the affected X-brace. Damage was extensive to the other building systems, however, because the bomb compromised major utility lines in the basement and the brace compromised the central core wall, allowing soot and smoke to shoot up the building core 12).

    In the aftermath of the bomb, WTC structural consultant Leslie E. Robertson, who was on Skilling's original team for the WTC, was convinced that the terrorists had meant to take down the twin towers in 1993 but had failed. After the events of Sept. 11, it seems clear Robertson was correct.

  2. #2
    Fleet Admiral mojo's Avatar
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    so it seems that you can't just be some dummy and fly into the wtc and expect all this to happen. someone with some education planned this out (not that we suspected differently, but just so everyone knows it's not just some half-assed thing that happened)
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    hot in velour pants Burzhui's Avatar
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    yea it was planned out to the last detail... i hope who did this gets Fu*ked in the A$$ pogo-stick style without vaseline
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    Commander ironchef's Avatar
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    i noticed too how the one seemed to fall upon itself. i thought it was very clever engineering -- much better to have it fall upon itself than neighboring buildings. but, perhaps it wasn't the engineering afterall.
    blurt blurt blurt

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    Lieutenant Commander poiselle's Avatar
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    The one that collapsed upon itself acted as expected. Once one floor collapses on the one beneath it the combined weight of the two overloads the next one and so on. The engineer was wondering about the one that actually tumbled. It is all just very bad.

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    Fleet Admiral hapoo's Avatar
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    i'm surprised they fell at all. if you have a house made out of cards and you knock down the top level chances of it all crashing down arn't that much, but if you take one card out of the bottom the whole thing comes crashing down, which was the case in the earlier bombing. I'm no engineer so it doesn't look right to me, anyone care to explain? I'm kinda curious.

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    Lieutenant Commander poiselle's Avatar
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    It was not the collision, but the fire that apparently caused the problem. The first bombing was huge, but only damaged one of the support structures. This one had structural damage and a jet fuel fire to weaken the structure. As in an earlier post, once it starts going it goes like a row of dominoes.

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    Exactly . . . it was the fire that caused the damage. I saw an interview with the structural engineer. He said that the steel infrastructure was meant to withstand 2 hours of intense heat before it would melt . . . which it did. It was shortly after that that each of the buildings fell.
    I used to be into sadism, necrophilia and beastiality, but then I realized I was just beating a dead horse

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    I think it was the way the planes had hit the buildings.
    One hit center (between the corner),
    while the other hit more the corner than the center.

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    someone tell me how to put that ribbon thing in my sig.

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    hot in velour pants Burzhui's Avatar
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    obby: here...

    it should look like this, w/o the ***


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    also, i noticed Leon was on the ball and added it to the Avatar list.
    Last edited by Nanotech9; 09-11-2001 at 08:22 PM.

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    FREE TO BOTHER SOME OTHER FORUM
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    What happened with the one that collapsed vertically was: the weight of the jet, combined with the heat of the fire weakened the concrete causing that floor to smash into the next lower floor.. etc.

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    Chief of Naval Operations attgig's Avatar
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    one interesting now about that fake though is that it took a while for that one to fall on itself, longer than the south tower...

    When you look at the WTC, there's somesort of black band that was where the second jet hit, and my guess is that that was the midpoint of the building...
    the second jet hit that band closer than the first one did(the first one was higher).

    hitting the building in a strategic area prolly cause the south tower to fall quicker than the other one.

    Just my assumptions...not really based on anything 'official'

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    Chief of Naval Operations Markel's Avatar
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    I think the fact that the second collision seemed to be more severe (greater structural impact on the building) and lower (more weight being born by the supporting the floors) and possibly more intense fire led to the earlier collapse of that building. I also heard an interview with the designer of the WTC, and he said he had designed it to withstand hurricanes, etc., but that he could never design a building that could withstand what happened yesterday.
    stay low... keep moving...

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    Admiral ArkiStan's Avatar
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    Remember back in 1945 when a hugh B-52 bomber crashed into the middle of the Empire State building? (I don't. I'm not that old.) Fourteen were killed, and many injured, but surprisingly there wasn't significant structural damage to the building and it was soon repaired. I've always wondered how much force (or how big a plane) it would take to actually destroy a skyscraper like that. Apparently we had the misfortune to be reminded yesterday that different buildings are built differently and in yesterday's tragedy a Boeing767 was more than enough.

  17. #17
    Admiral ArkiStan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Markel
    I also heard an interview with the designer of the WTC, and he said he had designed it to withstand hurricanes, etc., but that he could never design a building that could withstand what happened yesterday.
    Are you sure? Minoru Yamasaki died back in 1986. I'm glad he didn't have to witness this tragedy.

  18. #18
    Chief of Naval Operations Markel's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ucbstan
    Are you sure? Minoru Yamasaki died back in 1986. I'm glad he didn't have to witness this tragedy.
    Might be my bad. Maybe not THE designer, but it was someone who was quite involved with the development.
    stay low... keep moving...

  19. #19
    Disclaimer: I am a licensed Professional Engineer with a BS in Civil Engineering. I took much of the required coursework to take the Structural Engineer licensing exam, but am not a licensed Structural Engineer. The following attempts to be a layman explanation without a lot of jargon.

    The Structure acted mostly as anticipated (stood for a while and failed "gracefully"). Unfortunately the buildings were struck in exactly the right places. I do not know the exact structural makeup of the curtain wall structure or the stairwells, but here is what I know of what happened:

    The building has a core structure of many steel columns spaced closely together. The designers didn't want any poles in the middle of the structure and so decided to use a beefy exterior column system tied to the middle with large girders. From what I know, the stairwells were in the corners and designed to let everyone out in 1 hour. These stairwells were "probably" build much stouter than the rest of the structure, as both reinforcement of the building, and as a haven for the workers fleeing whatever ills attacked the building (hurricane, tornado, fire). Each column removed weakens the structure. The designers says it was supposed to be capable of withstanding a 707 (a much smaller plane). Therefore, I would assume that the building was made to stand even with the core removed, or with two of the corners removed. However, these planes removed the core and at least one, probably two corners and BENT the frame.

    Bending columns is a big no-no. The whole point of stiff design is that you keep the forces acting a structure low enough that the materials of the structure act elasticly and go back into their original shape. Once you've exceeded the elastic envelope, you go into plastic deformation which performs exactly as it sounds.

    Every 10-20 floors, these skyscrapers have water tanks to run the sprinkler systems. Reports stated that the bottom 15 floors filled with water rapidly after the strikes. I would assume that means the sprinkler system was destroyed by the aircraft and broke the piping to the sprinklers on the floors struck. Without sprinklers, the building couldn't last very long because heat will lower the force needed to deform beams to probably below the static load of the floors above. As an engineer, I am dismayed at the destruction of the structure. But as a person, I am more dismayed at the destruction of the people.


    Also, the Empire State Building was hit by a B-29 or DC-3, I believe. B-52's weren't around until the 1950's. The Empire State Building is built much different, with a lot of granite and concrete and it sustained major damage from that much smaller airplane.

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    Chief of Naval Operations attgig's Avatar
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    nice info

    thanks cive

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    Rear Admiral Lower Half TheLoneGunman's Avatar
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    I always thought it was KING KONG who attacked the Empire State Building

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  24. #24
    Lieutenant Commander i6s1's Avatar
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    Just read the Empire State story. It said the plane weighed 12 tons. I seem to remember that the jets that hit the WTC had 36 and 50 tons of fuel in them, and weighed over 100 tons. Plus, they were going a lot faster.
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