Canadian Pairs Skaters Robbed by Judges!

**coleslaw** · 02-11-2002, 08:39 PM

It's a conspiracy, I tell you! The Russian pair had a few errors in their routine, but the Canadians skated perfectly. How could the judges possibly award first place to a faulty routine?

**Nanotech9** · 02-11-2002, 08:51 PM

yeah, i saw all that

**xsiled2** · 02-11-2002, 08:54 PM

russian and frence

EVIL i tell ya

**sbp** · 02-11-2002, 09:45 PM

Yes, they sure were robbed.

**nomoney** · 02-11-2002, 10:24 PM

WOW! Canadians and figure skating....a double dont care.

**CornMonkey** · 02-11-2002, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by PsillyPyro
WOW! Canadians and figure skating....a double dont care.

ahaahahh

**chrissy** · 02-11-2002, 11:10 PM

Dudes, wait till I watch to say something... you spoiled the ending!

LOL

nah, I will just have to stay away from the forums in the evenings.

**eSDee** · 02-11-2002, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by PsillyPyro
WOW! Canadians and figure skating....a double dont care.

Hehe good one PP.

**penguintrix** · 02-11-2002, 11:17 PM

i found out that the russians won just in headline news,... and then waited to see (expectedly) a flawless performance. i was double robbed.

canadians did an awesome job and the russians surprised me. did you see the emotions??

so sad,...

**NuTs62** · 02-12-2002, 01:19 AM

Maybe they should do something like give the judges an instant replay, or contest the results. But considering its the Olympics, and it would be considered unsportsmanship, I doubt that'll ever happen.

Watchin them on the podium, I was wondering what was going through the Canadian skating pair's minds. "YOU PUNK! I BELONG ON THAT TOP STEP!".. blah blah blah.. just a bit delusional, must get some sleep

**Jenny** · 02-12-2002, 06:27 AM

I missed the performance but saw them award the medals and she looked so emotional. I just assumed she was happy, but I guess not! lol

I wonder if any of the reason the Russians got the gold was because the Russian female is 16 years old...

**whitak24** · 02-12-2002, 07:41 AM

i thought that the medal decision was completely inappropriate.

figure skating isn't like most sports that i follow, where you have definitive measures of who won and who lost (ie one team got the ball in the basket more times than the other team, therefore they won the game). in my understanding, there are two objectives: to perform your moves accurately and to present a moving show to the audience.
the canadians beat the russians on both of these counts. they performed a flawless show, and the russians didn't. in addition, it is OBVIOUS from seeing and hearing the reaction of the crowd that the canadians put on a MUCH more pleasing show than the russians.
because of this, they should have won the medal. they were robbed.

**Ladogaboy** · 02-12-2002, 07:49 AM

How much weight did they give to the artistic performance? The Russians performed their artistic routine perfectly, so that might have counted for something.

**whitak24** · 02-12-2002, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
How much weight did they give to the artistic performance? The Russians performed their artistic routine perfectly, so that might have counted for something.

you may be right. i'm a figure skating ignoramus. it's just not a sport that i follow at all. however, i do find it amazing to watch what those athletes can do......
i always assumed that the "artistic" score encompassed how good of a "show" the skaters put on. in my opinion, that's what it's mostly about: the show. and so i just assumed that whoever put on the better show should get higher artistic scores.

**Ladogaboy** · 02-12-2002, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by whitak24

you may be right. i'm a figure skating ignoramus. it's just not a sport that i follow at all. however, i do find it amazing to watch what those athletes can do......
i always assumed that the "artistic" score encompassed how good of a "show" the skaters put on. in my opinion, that's what it's mostly about: the show. and so i just assumed that whoever put on the better show should get higher artistic scores.

Well, there were two competitions: the artistic and technical. The artistic was held Saturday night, and the Russian pair won that one fair and square. I didn't get to watch the technical competition, so I don't know what happened there.

All I remember was that the announcer said, "If they don't finish in the top four in the artistic portion, they don't really have a chance at getting a medal." The Russians were first in the artistic competition; the Canadians were second.

**chrissy** · 02-12-2002, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by Ladogaboy
How much weight did they give to the artistic performance? The Russians performed their artistic routine perfectly, so that might have counted for something.

While that is true, tech scores also weigh in. And when you mess up on a jump (which happened) and a lift or throw, your artistic will/should go down too. One always affects the other.

The Canadians lost by just a couple tenths. The POL judge was one that placed them in 2nd. There was another also (either China or someone else.. can't remember).

I was just glad to see the crowd not taking it out on the skaters (RUS) because it wasn't their fault that the judges upped their scores... that we know of

Jenny, the story behind the RUS female skater is this, 6 years ago she was rushed to an ER because of a collision in a warm up where a skate hit her in her head. She underwent emergency surgery where they had to open her skull. Her partner last night wasn't her partner then, but he sat by her bed side the whole time she was in the hosptial and then took her home. They skated in 98 and I can't remember what they placed.

**~~Cantacuzene~~** · 02-12-2002, 08:43 AM

I felt the Canadians deserved to win but I didn't like how the canadian chick cried because she lost. Even if you get screwed lose with dignity. She embarrassed her country by behaving like a bitch.

**Ladogaboy** · 02-12-2002, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by chrissy
While that is true, tech scores also weigh in. And when you mess up on a jump (which happened) and a lift or throw, your artistic will/should go down too. One always affects the other.

Yeah, like I said though, I wasn't able to watch the techincal performance.

But I know what you are saying, especially since the artistic performances were close. The Russain pair won the artistic phase deservedly, but it was still close.

**whitak24** · 02-12-2002, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Ladogaboy

Yeah, like I said though, I wasn't able to watch the techincal performance. But I know what you are saying, especially since the artistic performances were close. The Russain pair won the artistic phase deservedly, but it was still close.

ok, i think you're getting a little confused here. like i've said, i'm not an expert on this stuff, but let me explain what i know.
there are two portions of all figure skating competitions: the required part, or short program (i don't know the technical name) and the free skate, or long program. the short program was saturday, the long program was last night.
now the short program contains required elements, or "figures". that is actually where the term figure skating came from - the required patterns and moves that each skater is supposed to complete. my understanding is that years ago, the short program was VERY structured (ie, everyone did the exact same thing). however, now skaters have a lot more flexibility, and as long as they include certain elements (jumps, etc), the can structure the program however they choose.
the long program, on the other hand, is pretty much free-form. the skaters can do whatever they want, and basically have the opportunity to use their special strenghts (good jumps, lifts, etc) to try to stand out and impress the judges.
within each program, contestants are scored in two categories: technical merit and artistic performance (or something like that). these scores are averaged and combined to provide a final score. i think the artistic scores have more weight toward the final score than the technical scores.
also, the long program carries more weight in the final rankings than the short program. because of this, of the top three after the short program, whichever of the top three wins the long program will win the gold. so although the canadians were in second place after the short program, going into the long program, it was still wide open. whoever won got the gold.

so that's a figure skating lesson from someone who doesn't really know about figure skating. i tried to search and see if i could find the rules anywhere, but didn't turn up anything.

btw, for whoever was asking above, the russian pair got the silver in 1998.

**whitak24** · 02-12-2002, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
I felt the Canadians deserved to win but I didn't like how the canadian chick cried because she lost. Even if you get screwed lose with dignity. She embarrassed her country by behaving like a bitch.

lay off on her. she was disappointed. she's spent the last 4 years of her life trying to reach the pinnacle of her sport and she didn't make it. even if you didn't feel like you were robbed, that would be a big disappointment. and when some people are disappointed, they cry. imo, she wasn't "behaving like a bitch"

**Ladogaboy** · 02-12-2002, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by whitak24

ok, i think you're getting a little confused here. like i've said, i'm not an expert on this stuff, but let me explain what i know.
there are two portions of all figure skating competitions: the required part, or short program (i don't know the technical name) and the free skate, or long program. the short program was saturday, the long program was last night.
now the short program contains required elements, or "figures". that is actually where the term figure skating came from - the required patterns and moves that each skater is supposed to complete. my understanding is that years ago, the short program was VERY structured (ie, everyone did the exact same thing). however, now skaters have a lot more flexibility, and as long as they include certain elements (jumps, etc), the can structure the program however they choose.
the long program, on the other hand, is pretty much free-form. the skaters can do whatever they want, and basically have the opportunity to use their special strenghts (good jumps, lifts, etc) to try to stand out and impress the judges.
within each program, contestants are scored in two categories: technical merit and artistic performance (or something like that). these scores are averaged and combined to provide a final score. i think the artistic scores have more weight toward the final score than the technical scores.
also, the long program carries more weight in the final rankings than the short program. because of this, of the top three after the short program, whichever of the top three wins the long program will win the gold. so although the canadians were in second place after the short program, going into the long program, it was still wide open. whoever won got the gold.

so that's a figure skating lesson from someone who doesn't really know about figure skating. i tried to search and see if i could find the rules anywhere, but didn't turn up anything.

btw, for whoever was asking above, the russian pair got the silver in 1998.

Oh, the way the announcers made it sound, the score from the first section (the short one) was also counted. They also said that anyone in the top four had a chance at a medal.

Oh well. Not much that anyone can do now.

**whitak24** · 02-12-2002, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Ladogaboy

Oh, the way the announcers made it sound, the score from the first section (the short one) was also counted. They also said that anyone in the top four had a chance at a medal. Oh well. Not much that anyone can do now.

it does. it just doesn't count as much (i think).
going into the long program, everyone "in theory" has a chance at a medal of some color. it's just that if one of the top three finishers in the short program WINS the long program, then they will win the GOLD medal. however, if someone outside the top three (from the short program) won the long program, it would throw everything into chaos

seriously, they would probably win some medal, but what color depends on how well the people ahead of them did in the long program.

i really wish that there was an expert on figure skating out there. i'm thinking kb0wwp. he seems to be an expert on almost everything....... i just want to hear an explaination from someone who really knows what they're talking about (i don't qualify

).

**Kenas** · 02-12-2002, 07:45 PM

Just want to put my 5c into this discussion, I felt really bad for the Canadians (especially for the female partner). Though I want to say that Russian pair was much much better artistically, there were both natural, and so was the Canadian female skater, but her partner ... I did not buy it, he seemed a little too fake. Either way I was really upset when that Chinese skater fell down, because they looked awesome and she made a quite a jump, before she went down.

Another thing, I totally hated how the media presented this pair figure skating, I felt like the cold war is not over. They were showing bad Russians with the Kremlin, Lenin and Red Flags. And these nice Canadians and so on. And suddenly we should all be proud of the Canadian team and root for the North America ... what's up with that? How come that is not such propaganda for other Canadians??? Just those who had chance to win

And on the last note, that's what I found on CNN site:

"Four of the judges who voted for the Russians are from former Soviet or communist countries; the four who voted for the Canadians are from countries in the Western bloc. The French judge was the exception, going with the Russians -- somewhat ironic, considering that Pelletier is French-Canadian".

**chrissy** · 02-12-2002, 09:00 PM

Marks //

Determining the winner of a given discipline is a three-step process. First, judges award each individual or pair two marks for each program. Although the criteria for judging the various disciplines vary, one mark generally is dedicated to the difficulty of a program's individual elements and another for the artistic impression of the overall performance.

Marks are awarded a scale from 0-6:

0 = Not skated
1 = Very poor
2 = Poor
3 = Mediocre
4 = Good
5 = Very good
6 = Perfect and faultless

Decimals to one tenth (example: 5.5) are used to further separate performances.

Ordinals //

Marks are a tool for judges to use to rank individuals or pairs against each other. A skater or pair can win a competition with relatively poor marks if everyone else in the field performs worse in the eyes of the judges.

It's ordinals -- numbers that represent how each judge thinks an individual or pair performed in relation to the other performers he or she evaluates in a given competition -- that ultimately decide who wins and who loses.

Ordinals are derived from marks. Once each judge has issued both marks, the values are added and ranked. A place number, or ordinal, is assigned to each skater or pair based on their total marks vs. the rest of the field in the eyes of that judge (first place for the skater that received the highest combined marks, second for the next highest, etc.).

Placement //

Ordinals for each individual or pair in a given event are compared to those of each other competitor in the field. Points are accumulated for "wins," or lower ordinals, and the individual or pair with the greatest number of judges "in favor" is the winner of that competition.

If two individuals or pairs have the same number of wins, the tiebreaker is the total number of judges in each skater's favor.

All four Olympic figure skating disciplines comprise more than one competition. The final step in determining the overall winner is to multiply each competition's final standings by a factor that reflects the segment's relative importance. The individual or pair with the lowest total score ("factored placement," in skating parlance) is the winner.

The factors for each discipline are as follows:

Men's and ladies' singles and pairs
Short program: 0.5 x place
Free program: 1.0 x place

The lowest possible total is 1.5 (.5 x first place in the short program + 1 x first place in the free skate). The competitor with the better free skate result wins all ties.

**coleslaw** · 02-12-2002, 09:06 PM

Skating federation to investigate judging

**NuTs62** · 02-13-2002, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by Cantacuzene
I felt the Canadians deserved to win but I didn't like how the canadian chick cried because she lost. Even if you get screwed lose with dignity. She embarrassed her country by behaving like a bitch.

If thats your opinion of how she acted, everyone should respect it. But realize the time and effort she put into it. The Canadian team is the first team in decades that everyone believed would beat the Russian's reign of gold medals. They worked their butts off. Perhaps she is being a poor sport. I believe she has every right to cry! Many of these individuals work all their lives to the Olympic moment, and what for? They don't shoot for the Silver medals, they shoot for Gold, to be #1. The 2 knew, as well as the crowds at Salt Lake City, as did the announcers, as did all the millions of television viewers, all knew that they deserved the Gold medal for their efforts. To be denied it, you think she should just smile and act all peachy? I'm sure if something meant so much to you, you'd be crying too. I don't believe she embarassed her country one bit. The couple skated with dignity, and I believe they honored their country that day with a great show for the world to see.

And although I respect your opinion, your choice of words are a tad bit harsh. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY should be referred to as a "bitch".