Any Photography Gurus Out There....

[Leon]

...want to explain Spot Metering to me? Well, here's a background. I just recently got a film camera (gasp) because my sister decided to get married and wants me to take loads of pictures. Don't worry, I'm not the main photographer. Just taking some candids. The camera I got was Canon Elan 7E and I also got a Canon 28-135mm USM IS lense, and a Canon 50mm/1.4 USM lense. For the flash, I have a Speedlite 420EX.



So, I have been reading up anything I can get my hands on. Lot's of good info from Photo.net, btw. I just took 3 rolls in 2 days, which is a record for me. It usually takes me a month to use up a single roll with my old P&S camera. So anyway, I bought some film from Costco and all they had were some Kodak Gold Max ISO 400 film. Got the pics back. Ewww.... Talk about grainy. Then I read some reviews on the Max film... Mediocre. *sigh* Now I have like 5 rolls of this lame film. I ordered some Fuji Superia 100 and 400, so hopefully the images will turn out better.

Anyhow, The part pictures I took wasn't really the fault of the film. My pictures during the day turned out pretty nice, but the night/dark background pictures are horribly overexposed. I think it's because of the spot metering on the Canon. The camera was "fooled" by the dark background so it overcompensated and overexposed the main subjects. Does that sound right?

So my question is what is spot metering? I've been trying to read up on it and it's just not sinking in. Then there's evaluative metering and partial metering. I think my head is going to explode. Also, what does flash aperture and flash sync rate mean? How are all these related? HELP!

[welfareloser]

[twilight]

uhhh.... okay, leon. i guess not everyone can be a genius like me. i am, after all, a PROFESSIONAL photographer, meaning people PAY ME to take photos, and of course i'm very good at my job. so i can tell you all about it.

spot metering is...

hey, wait, is cruelpupet here? did i mentiond i'm a DD? it's why everyone hates me.

i hate you all! you all suck! leave me alone!

[/twilight]

[mojo]

don't make me pick on you again, welfare

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by mojo
don't make me pick on you again, welfare

i'm up at 5 am due to another freakin coughing fit. pulled another abdominal muscle and am seeing stars from the pain. have mercy!

[cruelpupet]

Ok Leon heres what you need to do...

spot metering would be walking up to the area the subject is in, in that overexposed pic... taking out a medium grey card (i assume your doing B&W cause it is better and easier) and adjusting the light meter by focusing on the grey card (filling the fram with the card).


Now for a lil trick that my photography prof taught us....
apparently the pigmentation of palm of a hand is extremely close to medium grey, so you can just use your hand.

as for color i assume you could do the same, but the best person to ask that has been here would prolly be twilight.


OTHER TIPS:

if you want to try B&W kodak T-max 400 is good

It is better to overexpose a pic then underexpose, you can always cut down the development time when making the pic.

get your film developed at a professional place, going to a drug store/ 1 hr photo will give you crappy pics.

do not put the subject of the pic in the center of the frame... put them slightly off side

[Jenny]

Originally posted by welfareloser
[twilight]

uhhh.... okay, leon. i guess not everyone can be a genius like me. i am, after all, a PROFESSIONAL photographer, meaning people PAY ME to take photos, and of course i'm very good at my job. so i can tell you all about it.

spot metering is...

hey, wait, is cruelpupet here? did i mentiond i'm a DD? it's why everyone hates me.

i hate you all! you all suck! leave me alone!

[/twilight]

Funniest thing I've read in a long time!

[topane]

Originally posted by welfareloser
[twilight]

uhhh.... okay, leon. i guess not everyone can be a genius like me. i am, after all, a PROFESSIONAL photographer, meaning people PAY ME to take photos, and of course i'm very good at my job. so i can tell you all about it.

spot metering is...

hey, wait, is cruelpupet here? did i mentiond i'm a DD? it's why everyone hates me.

i hate you all! you all suck! leave me alone!

[/twilight]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA That's damn funny girl!

[mojo]

Originally posted by Jenny



Funniest thing I've read in a long time!

sure is funny...to talk about someone that isn't around to defend herself.

[Markel]

Spot metering uses only a small portion of the image to determine the exposure (shutter speed/aperature) settings to use for the shot. If a camera offers a spot metering mode, it likely has a small circle in the center of the viewfinder that indicates the approximate part of the image that will be used. The alternatives to spot metering are things like average (of all or most of the field of view) or center-weighted (which figures that whatever is in the center of the view is more important so the exposure is biased toward that area).

Some professionals like spot metering because it allows them to determine the exposure from a specific part of the picture (not necessarily the most important, but perhaps the brightest - Ansel Adams "Zone System" was based on placing a specific item in the photograph into a particular brightness zone).

[edit] p.s. Leon - dump that crappy color film and get some good black & white! Oh, and you'll also want some developing tanks, enlarger, developer trays, safe lights, ....

[whitak24]

i'm surprised you got such poor results with Kodak Max 400. i shoot almost exclusively on Max 400 and Max 800, and have never had any problems.
unfortunately, since i always shoot with a completely manual SLR, i don't really know how to manipulate the metering/shutter speed/f-stops to improve the pics.
i would have to agree with cruel though -- some developing shops just do not do a good job of setting the exposure on their photo printer for the picture....so it may just be the print. you may be able to figure out if it's the print or the camera by looking at the negatives. if you look at them and they look defined (you can see lines breaking apart different color fields [ie the edge of someone's nose defining it from the rest of their face]), then it's the printing that is causing the appearance of overexposure. however, if the face in the negatives is one big washed-out blob, then it's your camera.
sorry, that's not too much help.....

[ArkiStan]

Originally posted by whitak24
...unfortunately, since i always shoot with a completely manual SLR, i don't really know how to manipulate the metering/shutter speed/f-stops to improve the pics....

WHAT??? Your using a manual SLR camera without knowing how to adjust exposure, aperture, etc? Wow that's crazy man. A single f-stop offset doubles/halves the amount of light your getting. The picture's outcome is quite sensitive to all the settings. You must be a naturally gifted photographer!!

[Markel]

Originally posted by ArkiStan


WHAT??? Your using a manual SLR camera without knowing how to adjust exposure, aperture, etc? Wow that's crazy man. A single f-stop offset doubles/halves the amount of light your getting. The picture's outcome is quite sensitive to all the settings. You must be a naturally gifted photographer!!

I wonder if he drives with an "automatic" transmission?

[ArkiStan]

One more thing, Leon. The reason your pictures are grainy is because you're using 400 speed film. If you're shooting outside, you should be able to use 100 or 200 and the picture should be much less grainy. The higher the speed the grainier the pictures will be. The reason people use high speed film is because it shoots well in low light. And some people make their pictures grainy cause they like the effect. So if you want less grain and your shooting something like an outdoor banquet, you should be OK with 100 or 200 speed.

It seems I would have had a hard time understanding most of the previous explanations of spot metering in this thread if I had not taken a photo class in college. So let me try explaining spot metering in more layman terms. Let's say your taking a picture of a person standing in a field of snow. The camera will look at the all the bright snow and will tell you to adjust the settings to let in less light. As a result, the person will come out dark (underexposed). So what you do is go up close enough to the person so that most of the viewfinder consists of the person. Then adjust the exposure/aperture to whatever the light meter says. Then walk back to your orginal position and take the picture. In other words, you're adjusting the exposure/aperture settings to accomodate the most important object in the picture. I hope that's understandable.


.

[ArkiStan]

Originally posted by Markel

I wonder if he drives with an "automatic" transmission?

Aha...I hadn't thought of that!

[Burzhui]

Originally posted by whitak24
i'm surprised you got such poor results with Kodak Max 400. i shoot almost exclusively on Max 400 and Max 800, and have never had any problems

last and only time i used kodak max, i burned the film and the negs so god forbid no one ever will see that monstrosity, eek, good call cal with superia Leon

And i think you prety much got your answer already so i won't say anything

[LPMiller]

Originally posted by mojo
sure is funny...to talk about someone that isn't around to defend herself.

But...but...that's when you are supposed to talk about someone! It's in the rule book, right here *points*

[styleee]

Originally posted by Leon
Also, what does flash aperture and flash sync rate mean? How are all these related? HELP!

first i can't stress the importance of using a flash. using a flash will fill in the subject, and allow you to control the contrast in the image.

i'm not sure what flash aperture and flash sync rate mean on a canon, um, nevermind, i can tell you. flash sync rate is the fastest speed you can set your shutter to and still be able to use flash. if its 500, you can set your aperture to 1/500 of a second, and still use flash... and this is sorta hard to explain why, but i'll try cause i know you are dying to find out
*the shutter on your camera is like a window that slide up and down, with part of the flim obstructed by the shutter at all times. when the shutter is very fast, it covers the flim for part of the flash, so only part of the image on film was exposed when the flash went off. and i can't remember the exact speed of a flash, but it is REALLY FAST, so the shutter must be completely open when the flash goes off.
ALSO, the flash only goes off for X amount of time, so if you have the shutter open for 2 minutes or 1/30 of a second, the exposure due to the flash will be the same.

the flash aperture setting tells the camera how much light (due to flash) to let in by ajusting the f/stops. i could even tell u how the f/stops are determined if u want me to, but i'm not going to get into that right now. in general, the closer the subject, the more light is recieved from flash so aperture should be smaller= f/stop # larger... f/stop means the size of the hole in the aperture. um, its like, 1/22, 1/16, 1/11, 1/8, 1/5.6, 1/4, 1/2.8, 1/1 and that number is the % that is open

to get a little trickey, you can set your flash to be properly exposed for the subject (a person i assume) using the correct aperture. then meter the background, and set the shutter to be properly exposed for the background, or make it 1-1.5 stops darker (underexposed.)

good luck and lemme see some good pictures!

also, all this stuff is hard for me to explain without showing it on the camera, so if i don't make sence, let me know so i can try to make it more understandable!

[Jihforce]

Originally posted by Markel

I wonder if he drives with an "automatic" transmission?

He does.

[whitak24]

Originally posted by ArkiStan


WHAT??? Your using a manual SLR camera without knowing how to adjust exposure, aperture, etc? Wow that's crazy man. A single f-stop offset doubles/halves the amount of light your getting. The picture's outcome is quite sensitive to all the settings. You must be a naturally gifted photographer!!

oh my, oh my. you guys have me lmao.
i hope my mangled syntax provided you guys with some humor, because it's providing me with a lot too -- at least i can make myself laugh.
what i intended to say (and my prose didn't really reflect this), was that due to using a manual SLR, i don't know what one would do when using an auto SLR to override and change the f-stop, shutter speed, etc.
but actually, i'm glad that you recognize that i'm a naturally gifted photographer.

[penguintrix]

all of the above posted,... but i agree with arkistan,... unless you've been doing photography, you're going to be lost.

using the 7e, i'm not sure if you can, but if i'm not mistaken, you won't be using the spot metering unless you turn off the "e" on your camera. the eye control automatically determines what to focus on as well as the exposure,... or that's what i learned about the camera trying it out before i went with a nikon. (no flame war please)

to really get an understanding for the spot metering (after reading and understanding these posts) i would take pictures without the flash, using 100 speed film in daylight. (before or after noon) unless you know what you're doing, you might get confused with so many element to consider. yeah, i agree with these posts, figure out how the aperture and f/stops work before you add another element to the picture (flash, etc.). how much time do you have before the wedding anyway?

but most of all, have some fun!

[Leon]

Originally posted by cruelpupet
Ok Leon heres what you need to do...

spot metering would be walking up to the area the subject is in, in that overexposed pic... taking out a medium grey card (i assume your doing B&W cause it is better and easier) and adjusting the light meter by focusing on the grey card (filling the fram with the card).


Now for a lil trick that my photography prof taught us....
apparently the pigmentation of palm of a hand is extremely close to medium grey, so you can just use your hand.

as for color i assume you could do the same, but the best person to ask that has been here would prolly be twilight.


OTHER TIPS:

if you want to try B&W kodak T-max 400 is good

It is better to overexpose a pic then underexpose, you can always cut down the development time when making the pic.

get your film developed at a professional place, going to a drug store/ 1 hr photo will give you crappy pics.

do not put the subject of the pic in the center of the frame... put them slightly off side

Now, I assume that the light meter adjusting requires me to be in full manual mode? Is this possible to do and have the camera determine some aspects like aperture ot shutter speed? Or is this a whole package thing where I have to set the aperture, shutter, light meter by myself. For example, say the subject is about 6 feet away from me and the background is pitch black. I would focus on my hand, and have the camera spot meter that for the flash. But when I refocus on the subject, will the camera have taken a new reading and readjusted the flash? I know my wording is horrible, so let me know if you can understand what I just typed.

As for the professional development place, I'm still looking for one. Ritz doesn't count as a pro film development place, does it?

[Leon]

Originally posted by Markel
Spot metering uses only a small portion of the image to determine the exposure (shutter speed/aperature) settings to use for the shot. If a camera offers a spot metering mode, it likely has a small circle in the center of the viewfinder that indicates the approximate part of the image that will be used. The alternatives to spot metering are things like average (of all or most of the field of view) or center-weighted (which figures that whatever is in the center of the view is more important so the exposure is biased toward that area).

Some professionals like spot metering because it allows them to determine the exposure from a specific part of the picture (not necessarily the most important, but perhaps the brightest - Ansel Adams "Zone System" was based on placing a specific item in the photograph into a particular brightness zone).

[edit] p.s. Leon - dump that crappy color film and get some good black & white! Oh, and you'll also want some developing tanks, enlarger, developer trays, safe lights, ....

I just reread the instructions for the camera and it has three metering modes:

Evaluative: viewfinder is coverage is divided into 35 metering zones and evaluative metering is linked to the seven focusing points. The camera senses the subject's position and brightness, the background, the existing light, backlighting, and other lighting conditions to set a suitable exposure for the subject. (During manual focusing, evaluative metering is linked only to the center focusing point).

Partial: an area covering about 10% of the viewfinder screen at the center is used for metering.

Centerweighted Average: the metering is weighted at the center and then averaged for the entire scene.

I used evaluative metering for all my shots because that was the default mode. Well, I now know NOT to use that metering scheme. It looks like the Partial Metering mode is probably what will come closest to spot metering mode for this camera.

Dump the color? Haha. Very tempting. Black and Whites always come out very nice and elegant looking. Maybe I'll mess around with it later. Right now I have 20 rolls of Fuji Superia 100 and 20 rolls of the 400 to use up. As for developing my own pictures, I would love to, but I don't have a place for my darkroom.... yet.

[Leon]

Originally posted by whitak24
i'm surprised you got such poor results with Kodak Max 400. i shoot almost exclusively on Max 400 and Max 800, and have never had any problems.
unfortunately, since i always shoot with a completely manual SLR, i don't really know how to manipulate the metering/shutter speed/f-stops to improve the pics.
i would have to agree with cruel though -- some developing shops just do not do a good job of setting the exposure on their photo printer for the picture....so it may just be the print. you may be able to figure out if it's the print or the camera by looking at the negatives. if you look at them and they look defined (you can see lines breaking apart different color fields [ie the edge of someone's nose defining it from the rest of their face]), then it's the printing that is causing the appearance of overexposure. however, if the face in the negatives is one big washed-out blob, then it's your camera.
sorry, that's not too much help.....

You have had good results with your Kodak Gold Max? Then it's probably because you shoot picture 10 times better than I do. But here's where I read the review for the film:

http://www.photographyreview.com/Pri...7_3120crx.aspx

I had my pictures developed at Costco, where they sent it to some lab, so it's not exactly a quality place. I'm pretty sure it's not the developing that made it very overexposed because the daytime pictures I took looked pretty good. It way a beautiful day with plenty of sunlight. It's not my camera, although I would love to blame it on the Canon to make myself look better. Haha...

[Leon]

Originally posted by ArkiStan
One more thing, Leon. The reason your pictures are grainy is because you're using 400 speed film. If you're shooting outside, you should be able to use 100 or 200 and the picture should be much less grainy. The higher the speed the grainier the pictures will be. The reason people use high speed film is because it shoots well in low light. And some people make their pictures grainy cause they like the effect. So if you want less grain and your shooting something like an outdoor banquet, you should be OK with 100 or 200 speed.

It seems I would have had a hard time understanding most of the previous explanations of spot metering in this thread if I had not taken a photo class in college. So let me try explaining spot metering in more layman terms. Let's say your taking a picture of a person standing in a field of snow. The camera will look at the all the bright snow and will tell you to adjust the settings to let in less light. As a result, the person will come out dark (underexposed). So what you do is go up close enough to the person so that most of the viewfinder consists of the person. Then adjust the exposure/aperture to whatever the light meter says. Then walk back to your orginal position and take the picture. In other words, you're adjusting the exposure/aperture settings to accomodate the most important object in the picture. I hope that's understandable.

Yeah, I did expect a little graininess with the 400 film, but I felt like it was overly grainy. I had half the roll left in the camera before the night was over, so I was kind of forced to take pictures with ISO 400 film in bright sunlight. But I will definitely take a few pictures with some 100 film next time during the day.

Hmm.. I was thinking of your snow analogy, but I have the same questions as with cruelpupet. If I walk close to the subject to meter and then walk back to take the picture, won't the original metering setting be reset to something else? Or will I be in full manual mode? I think I understand the concept of spot metering now. Thanks for your explanation, it helped a lot.

[Leon]

Originally posted by styleee


first i can't stress the importance of using a flash. using a flash will fill in the subject, and allow you to control the contrast in the image.

i'm not sure what flash aperture and flash sync rate mean on a canon, um, nevermind, i can tell you. flash sync rate is the fastest speed you can set your shutter to and still be able to use flash. if its 500, you can set your aperture to 1/500 of a second, and still use flash... and this is sorta hard to explain why, but i'll try cause i know you are dying to find out
*the shutter on your camera is like a window that slide up and down, with part of the flim obstructed by the shutter at all times. when the shutter is very fast, it covers the flim for part of the flash, so only part of the image on film was exposed when the flash went off. and i can't remember the exact speed of a flash, but it is REALLY FAST, so the shutter must be completely open when the flash goes off.
ALSO, the flash only goes off for X amount of time, so if you have the shutter open for 2 minutes or 1/30 of a second, the exposure due to the flash will be the same.

the flash aperture setting tells the camera how much light (due to flash) to let in by ajusting the f/stops. i could even tell u how the f/stops are determined if u want me to, but i'm not going to get into that right now. in general, the closer the subject, the more light is recieved from flash so aperture should be smaller= f/stop # larger... f/stop means the size of the hole in the aperture. um, its like, 1/22, 1/16, 1/11, 1/8, 1/5.6, 1/4, 1/2.8, 1/1 and that number is the % that is open

to get a little trickey, you can set your flash to be properly exposed for the subject (a person i assume) using the correct aperture. then meter the background, and set the shutter to be properly exposed for the background, or make it 1-1.5 stops darker (underexposed.)

good luck and lemme see some good pictures!

also, all this stuff is hard for me to explain without showing it on the camera, so if i don't make sence, let me know so i can try to make it more understandable!

Now that I understand spot metering, I'm having problems trying to tie all this flash stuff together.

The maximum flash sync for the Elan 7E is 1/125, which isn't high at all. This means I can only have my shutter at 1/125 with the flash, right?

I know how the f-stops work already, so I'll save you from having to explain all that. Actually, I think I know how everything works individually, but I'm still trying to understand how they all relate. I do appreciate you explaining all this stuff to me. I think little by little, I will eventually get all this. But for now, my head is about to explode.

[Leon]

Originally posted by penguintrix
all of the above posted,... but i agree with arkistan,... unless you've been doing photography, you're going to be lost.

using the 7e, i'm not sure if you can, but if i'm not mistaken, you won't be using the spot metering unless you turn off the "e" on your camera. the eye control automatically determines what to focus on as well as the exposure,... or that's what i learned about the camera trying it out before i went with a nikon. (no flame war please)

to really get an understanding for the spot metering (after reading and understanding these posts) i would take pictures without the flash, using 100 speed film in daylight. (before or after noon) unless you know what you're doing, you might get confused with so many element to consider. yeah, i agree with these posts, figure out how the aperture and f/stops work before you add another element to the picture (flash, etc.). how much time do you have before the wedding anyway?

but most of all, have some fun!

Hmm... I've pretty much had the eye control off this whole time. I should have really gone with the 7 model. Oh well.

I think I've pretty much got the f-stops, aperture, and shutter concepts down. I just need to know flash photography. The wedding is in a little over a month, so I have time. If all else fails, I'll just use a diffuser on the flash. Yeah, I'm a big cheater.

[ArkiStan]

Originally posted by Leon
Hmm.. I was thinking of your snow analogy, but I have the same questions as with cruelpupet. If I walk close to the subject to meter and then walk back to take the picture, won't the original metering setting be reset to something else? Or will I be in full manual mode?

Wow that's a lot of typing you did there!! Anyway, you're right about being in full manual mode. You're overriding all automatic functions on the camera cause the camera is an idiot. It doesn't always know what you're trying to take a picture of.

tip:
A similar concept goes with auto-focusing. Sometimes Auto-focusing is really convenient when you don't have time to focus all the time. But when the subject is not at the center of the viewfinder, the camera will focus on the far background and not the close subject who is standing to the side. So what you do is first turn and look straight at the subject (the camera will focus on it), then you lock the focus (seek manual for further details) and turn back to you original point of view. The camera will still be focused on the subject and not the scenery. Shoot!

As for flash photography, I haven't done much of it myself, so I can't really tell you much. But I know it's whole different monster of it's own. It'll take time. Keep at it.

[penguintrix]

Originally posted by Leon

Is this possible to do and have the camera determine some aspects like aperture ot shutter speed? <snip...> subject, will the camera have taken a new reading and readjusted the flash? I know my wording is horrible, so let me know if you can understand what I just typed.

As for the professional development place, I'm still looking for one. Ritz doesn't count as a pro film development place, does it?

you can always set the camera to aperture priority or shutter priority and accomplish what i think you're asking here. this should include the speedlight you bought,... basically you set the aperture the camera will set the shutter for you. and vice versa. that's how i first was told to mess around with the camera and how i started. then you got to see where the camera would meter the exposure,...

in terms of development, i use the kodak developments. i mail it in or just drive it down to irvine. they've been awesome. and then i use a neg scanner to scan in the images,...

lastly,... look into something called exposure lock or lock exposure,... that'll allow you to lock in the exposure settings and then compose your picture the way you want it without having it under/overexposed. i believe this is only good if you're using the aperture/shutter priority or the p-mode,... if you're in full manual, the exposure lock is useless since you're setting the exposure anyway,... camera assumes that you know what you're doing.

[penguintrix]

Originally posted by Leon
If I walk close to the subject to meter and then walk back to take the picture, won't the original metering setting be reset to something else? Or will I be in full manual mode? I think I understand the concept of spot metering now. Thanks for your explanation, it helped a lot.

if you're in full manual mode (i may end up digging up the canon pieces eventually if this continues ) then it won't reset. your camera's meter will tell you that you're over/underexposed, but since you're in manual mode, it won't matter.

so for example, say at 2 pm, you're taking a picture of the subject (in dark clothing, or closer to you than say the landscape) with some clouds or haze or whatever,... in the snow. you're running f/16 at 1/250 and the camera says that that is correct, you're using your eval metering setting. you can set it it to spot or center weighted (in the case of snow, prob spot), stay where you are, spot meter just the subject and see how the camera re-meters the picture. it SHOULD change the stops and shutter. if it doesn't,... something's not right.

OR

you can just click it to manual and change your f/stop or shutter speed to compensate for the subject.

OR

you can meter the subject, walk back to the place where you want to compose the picture, and then manually set the aperture and shutter to what the meter said when you were right near the subject.

hope that makes sense to you.

[penguintrix]

Originally posted by Leon
Maybe I'll mess around with it later. Right now I have 20 rolls of Fuji Superia 100 and 20 rolls of the 400 to use up. As for developing my own pictures, I would love to, but I don't have a place for my darkroom.... yet.

i'm always looking for cheap fuji film. you wanna sell me those rolls (hahaha sounds funny) i'd be glad to take them off your hands.

i'm doing a lot of color work right now (the b/w is fun too, but not for work at the moment) and was JUST thinking about running out to replenish my supply.