baseball sucks

**ribitch** · 07-10-2002, 05:29 AM

ok, anyone watch any of the allstar game?

7-7 tie. All the pitchers were used up. What crap. No MVP, since there wasnt a game winner. These athletes are supposed to be all-stars. Let them play. How lame.

Reasons I am hating baseball as of lately:
- Steroids used by most players
- Jeff Weaver trade
- possible strike
- all star game is a TIE

Baseball players are sad.

link

they need to get rid of selig. They need somebody to care more about the league and turn it around.

**faither** · 07-10-2002, 07:12 AM

The biggest joke is that they name the All-Star MVP Award after Ted Williams and then don't choose one. A**holes!!! How do you call a game in the 11th inning? I know all the about the pitching but please!!!!

**Butch** · 07-10-2002, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by ribitch
ok, anyone watch any of the allstar game?

7-7 tie. All the pitchers were used up. What crap. No MVP, since there wasnt a game winner. These athletes are supposed to be all-stars. Let them play. How lame.

Reasons I am hating baseball as of lately:
- Steroids used by most players
- Jeff Weaver trade
- possible strike
- all star game is a TIE

Baseball players are sad.

link

they need to get rid of selig. They need somebody to care more about the league and turn it around.

Let me preface this by saying that I am a HUGE baseball fan . . .

and I've been a bit miffed with baseball lately . . . but really only because of the potential strike. The last strike bugged me so much that I've only paid to go to one baseball game since the strike in '94 (Visiting Boston, I went to Fenway for a Yanks v. Sox game with Pedro pitching . . . had to do that). All other games have been via free tix from work to Yanks games (Which thankfully come often enough to keep me from sated.)

As for the other reasons you mentioned, I'm not ready to pass judgement on the steroids thing. I think it's definitely going too far to say most players are on them. Some, no doubt - and probably some very prominent players even - but, performance enhancements have always been a part of every sport. The drugs are just getting a bit more potent now and the Players Union needs to agree to testing. What frustrates me most about the steroids issue isn't exactly that players are taking them, but that I love "small ball" . . . seeing teams do the little things to produce a run instead of just hitting a ball over the wall. I would much rather see a 1-0 pitching duel than see seven 450 foot blasts.

On to the Jeff Weaver deal. All I can say is . . . "tough." Each team involved filled a need. Of course, I'm a bit biased since I'm a Yankee fan, but I don't see how people can deride smart moves by one team. As Steinbrenner points out, many owners have more money than he does and could put more money into their teams. Also, Steinbrenner has historically plowed a lot of his profits back into the team, whereas most other owners haven't. The other owners made a choice to look at their baseball teams as strictly a business proposition from Day 1. When Steinbrenner bought the team, his top priority was to win - it wasn't as much of a business venture for him (Of course that's a bit over-simplified). However, because of his strong desire to win, the Yanks have turned into a tremendously profitable AND winning venture for him.

And for the All Star game, it was a necessity to stop the game. It was an unfortunate situation to be sure, but given the situation, it was the right thing to do. In the future they will need to create safeguards to ensure that there is enough depth available. Personally, I think the best solution is to encourage more competition in the game. Screw this exhibition atmosphere. Make it more like it used to be where there was really some league pride at stake. In a situation like that, managers would need to manage their lineups and bench more conservatively.

OK, that was entirely more than I intended to write when I started this post.

**ribitch** · 07-10-2002, 07:50 AM

i have always been a major fan of baseball, but its no longer the same. The players seem to care too much about money and not the game or fans.

autograph prices are insane.

they need to take care of the steroid problem. Players like kaline, mantle, aaron, and williams never needed steroids to enhance their game. they are some of the games greatest players with some of the greatest records. Now we have players smashing their records with the help of ILLEGAL drugs. What is this telling our youth?

The allstar game should have been finished. Sure every player should get the chance to play, but the manager shouldnt blow through the pitching staff in case of extra innings.

Bud Selig is a jackass, and needs immediate replacement. In my opinion, he hasnt done anything but hurt the sport

**attgig** · 07-10-2002, 07:54 AM

Bud Selig = end of baseball...
frickin greedy bastard ****face punkass bitch

**Jihforce** · 07-10-2002, 08:31 AM

Haha too you that long to figure out that baseball sucked?

**Merlin** · 07-10-2002, 08:47 AM

The All Star Game was an accident just waiting to happen. Sooner or later they were going to have a game where they ran out of players. Stopping the game was the right thing to do that they never should have had to do.

My suggestion to fix this problem would be to have a special rule for the game...unlimited substitutions. By that I mean that Zito (pitched to one batter) could have been brought back into the game later. This rule would be invoked once all pitchers have been used. In regular games only using a player once works, but in the All Star format where they want everyone to get in (not a philosphy I agree with but one I understand)you need to have a plan.

If I had paid the $175 for a ticket I would be fuming mad.

As for the other problems mentioned...

* I personally don't count any records broken in recent years as being legitimate, well ever since Mac came out about using Andro. How can every other major sport ban a substance and baseball revel in what it can do.

* Steroid testing would be bad for the same reason that testing for pot would be bad for the NBA. I mean what would you do when you discover that half your league is juicing? Especially when it is the big names you are trying to market! Roids need to be phased out somehow while being kept out of the headlines.

* The Weaver trade. Throughout the long history of the games there have been meny instances of bad teams/organizations making really stupid trades. This is just another one. You have two smart guys Beane (A's) and Cashman (Yanks) eating the lunch that belonged to a dumbass. Nobody made the Tigers make that trade. Weaver didn't make that much.

* Anyway you look at it "Bud" is a complete baffoon and needs to go. Everytime he opens his mouth more people become disenchanted with the game. You want a commissioner who helps the game not one who puts egg on its face everytime he opens up his mouth.

**ribitch** · 07-10-2002, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by Merlin
The All Star Game was an accident just waiting to happen. Sooner or later they were going to have a game where they ran out of players. Stopping the game was the right thing to do that they never should have had to do.

My suggestion to fix this problem would be to have a special rule for the game...unlimited substitutions. By that I mean that Zito (pitched to one batter) could have been brought back into the game later. This rule would be invoked once all pitchers have been used. In regular games only using a player once works, but in the All Star format where they want everyone to get in (not a philosphy I agree with but one I understand)you need to have a plan.

If I had paid the $175 for a ticket I would be fuming mad.

As for the other problems mentioned...

* I personally don't count any records broken in recent years as being legitimate, well ever since Mac came out about using Andro. How can every other major sport ban a substance and baseball revel in what it can do.

* Steroid testing would be bad for the same reason that testing for pot would be bad for the NBA. I mean what would you do when you discover that half your league is juicing? Especially when it is the big names you are trying to market! Roids need to be phased out somehow while being kept out of the headlines.

* The Weaver trade. Throughout the long history of the games there have been meny instances of bad teams/organizations making really stupid trades. This is just another one. You have two smart guys Beane (A's) and Cashman (Yanks) eating the lunch that belonged to a dumbass. Nobody made the Tigers make that trade. Weaver didn't make that much.

* Anyway you look at it "Bud" is a complete baffoon and needs to go. Everytime he opens his mouth more people become disenchanted with the game. You want a commissioner who helps the game not one who puts egg on its face everytime he opens up his mouth.

i agree with you. as far as weaver goes, it just made me loose more and more respect for the tigers. I'm a detroiter, and I support our teams, but the tigers support is wearing thin. they shook up the management this year to reduce the bad trades like this one, and it still isnt working.

As far as mandatory roids testing goes, I am all for it. Give them until next season to get off of it. If they start testing positive, heavily fine the player, and keep them from playing in the allstar games. The tests must be conducted by the league, not the teams. Have the tests random. They should include a mix of stars, ok players, and benchwarmers. If the problems dont begin to clear up, make the penalties more and more severe.

And one thing we all seem to agree on, get rid of that jackass

**attgig** · 07-10-2002, 09:04 AM

I agree with Merlin.
either that, or get some shortstop to pitch... (they do that in real games! - cmon, 5 AL ss's - I'm sure one of them could've pitched).

1)Roids/pot
if it's illegal for the average citizen to use them, shouldn't be tolerated for these freakin big name sh1ts either. There's random drug testing in my workplace, and you know what, screw privacy garbage - that's a freakin weak argument. If an employer wants to make sure that their employees aren't breaking the law, they should have the right to.

2)Yanks/bling bling
yeah, there were other teams with high salaries who are screwing up - namely the rangers....but check this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/salaries?team=nyy
and that's the salaries on opening day 2002.
The fact that the yanks are at 125 - and then added more - to go to almost 140....that's 30 mil over the closest one...
then you look at the bottom half of salaries, none of them are even half of 140.
why have 30 teams? you should have 15, cause obviously, all the teams aren't starting on the same playing field to equally compete for the world series.
yeah, screw contracting 2 teams, get rid of 15 of them.
as for contracting...
Selig is a freakin *******....Omar Minaya wants to get the expos into contention - something that any fan would root for - rooting for the underdog...but Selig just says straight out - no more payroll....you know what, that's garbage. His freakin agenda is on the line there...
if the Expos make it to the playoffs, Selig is screwed, he can't contract montreal anymore...so, he's going to pretty much do a "Major League" thing on Montreal (the bitch in that movie who tried to get them to lose).

anyways, I'm ranting on too long, and need to work......

**faither** · 07-10-2002, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by ribitch
autograph prices are insane.

You've got to be crazy to pay anyone for an autograph. I bought one once for a friend's 40th birthday (big Willis Reed fan) and wouldn't do it under any other circumstance. On top of the fact that money from consumers ultimately is what pays contracts, I don't understand how anybody would pay for one. Especially from a secondary source where authenticity in most cases is very questionable.

**IrishSS** · 07-10-2002, 10:35 AM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ins...07/10/insider/

Baseball got the travesty it deserved in Milwaukee on Tuesday night, the worst All-Star Game ever staged. You keep treating the contest like a glorified spring training exhibition and that's exactly what you wind up with, the major difference being that fans were gouged to the tune of $175 a pop for a competition not played to completion in a city that lacks the ambiance and the hotel rooms of Cactus League towns.

Only in baseball and only in Milwaukee could a sport's premier event end up with angry fans pelting the playing field with garbage and chanting "Fans Strike!" in a publically financed stadium in the commissioner's own backyard. "He was shaking, literally shaking," said one baseball source near Bud Selig while the 11th and final inning failed to break a 7-7 tie.

Let's get one thing straight: Selig made the absolute right call in ending the game after the 11th inning. NL manager Bob Brenly floated the idea of a mini home run derby to break the deadlock -- a diamond version of a shootout -- to Selig. AL manager Joe Torre said he never considered telling pitcher Freddy Garcia to groove hittable fastballs to make a tie-breaking run possible.

"They're competitors," Torre said. "You can't tell them not to compete. And how is a rigged ending good for the fans?"

Selig could not risk an injury to Garcia or Vicente Padilla, the NL pitcher who Brenly said was incapable of pitching a third inning. The real problem, however, lies with baseball allowing itself to be painted into such an awkward corner.

"They tried to get everybody into the game," Selig said of the two managers. "That's the objective of the game."

Bratwurst, Bud. Wrong, wrong, wrong. If baseball cared less about turning the All-Star Game into some democratic softball funfest at the annual company picnic and cared more about playing the best players -- the players the fans really want to see -- in a competitive environment that actually resembles a real game (basically, where we were only 15 years ago) then baseball would not have found itself in the Milwaukee Embarrassment.

"It does have to be evaluated," Selig admitted, regarding the use of players.

See, baseball has been devaluing the All-Star Game for years, so much so that FOX would trade it to ESPN for the Home Run Derby in a heartbeat. Interleague play has helped kill the game because we've seen many of the batter-pitcher matchups before. The players don't care. Many of them skip the event entirely or keep the engines running on their timeshare jets while gracing the fans with an actual at-bat or two. Check out the All-Star dugouts after the fifth inning. Empty. The biggest stars --- the ones the fans vote to see -- scram after three or four innings. If the stars don't stick around, why should we? So we get All-Star Games such as the Milwaukee Embarrassment in which fans get to see Randy Winn come to the plate more often than Barry Bonds or Sammy Sosa. Did you stay up for that Winn-Mike Remlinger smackdown in the seventh inning?

It's ironic enough that baseball names the All-Star Game MVP Award after Ted Williams and then decides not to award it. But there is also this: Williams once said the highlight of his career was his 14th-inning homer to win the 1941 midsummer classic. The way the game is played now Williams would have touched down on the tarmac with his posse in time to watch the 14th inning on a television in his limo on his way to the ESPYs.

Nearly all the talk after the Milwaukee Embarrassment from Selig and the managers was about protecting the players. Nobody wanted to talk about protecting the interests of the fans. Let's face it, the game has become a meaningless blur of substitutions because nobody cares who wins or loses any more, the name of the game is pampering the players. At least three elite All-Stars, for instance, threatened to pull out of all events if baseball didn't meet their ridiculous whims, such as, in the case of two elite players, granting field access to members of their entourage.

Managers are most guilty of stripping the competition from the game. Apparently breaking a sweat is no longer permitted in All-Star games. The players' association is likely to file a grievance if anybody dares to use a pitcher for three innings, for instance. Got to get Johnny Anonymous from the Devil Rays an inning of work, people.

"If players start to think they're not going to get into the game, then why come at all?" asked Yankees third baseman Robin Ventura.

Hey, Mike Williams should be fetching coffee for John Smoltz at the All-Star Game, not enjoying some sense of entitlement to playing time.

Selig talked after the Milwaukee Embarrassment about expanding the rosters with more position players and pitchers. Huge mistake. Sure, shoehorn a few more players into the game until it looks like the cast of Ben Hur. Adding a pitcher or two is fine enough. To really fix the All-Star Game, here is what else needs to be done.

Get rid of the archaic rule that every team must be represented. People who don't deserve to be All-Stars basically cut the line of guys who do only because of this stupid rule. Magglio Ordonez, Eric Chavez and Jim Thome, for instance, were robbed of spots this year. It's time to ditch the rule, with one exception: the host city must have one representative.

Instruct managers to play the best players longer. Give the fans' favorites more at-bats. The constant substitutions must stop, especially with pitchers. Starters Roger Clemens and Dwight Gooden each pitched three innings in their 1986 duel. Only one of the past 28 starting All-Star pitchers has pitched three innings (Greg Maddux, 1994). On Tuesday night Brenly used as many pitchers through eight innings (eight) as both teams did in the entire 1971 All-Star Game. As recently as 1980-'88, nine of the 18 starting pitchers lasted at least three innings.
The rise of relief pitchers has hurt how long starters last in the game. Brenly, for instance, picked seven relievers among his 10 pitchers. (Starters Tom Glavine, Matt Morris and Randy Johnson all bailed from the team.) Relievers aren't trained to (gasp!) pitch two innings at a time.

Put something on the line. It used to be league pride, a forgotten concept. How about home field advantage for the World Series? Might players stick around if they knew a win might mean playing Game 7 of the World Series in their home park? If Benito Santiago had singled home Mike Lowell in the 11th inning Tuesday, would anybody have been there to come running out of the dugout to greet the winning run?

Keep the game out of Milwaukee. It's a fine, friendly city, but let's be honest. The only reason the game was held in Milwaukee was because Selig helped use it as a chip toward getting taxpayers to help build him a new park. When asked about future sites at a news conference Tuesday, Selig had the nerve to mention only one criteria for selection: adequate hotel space. Milwaukee might be equipped to host porcelain bathroom fixture conventions, but an All-Star Game? Forget it. The city was so eager to show the world its sophistication that it housed the international media contingent 15 miles away from downtown in roadside suburban hotels.
Many of the festivities were as disastrous as the game. Rain gushed from multiple leaks in the roof during the Home Run Derby. The annual All-Star Gala for players, media, special guests and corporate sponsors was scheduled at an outdoor venue -- with no tents rented. A vicious thunderstorm turned the party into a sad joke, with rain soaking the chafing dishes and guests alike. The annual postgame party was unlike anything since the days of Marge Schott: brats, chips and cookies. You know it's a lowbrow event when the catering is taken care of by left field bleachers surplus.

And so it came down to this: The commissioner of baseball, tighter than a brat casing, sitting there in his orange polka dot tie like some Dr. Seuss character waiting for a Cat in the Hat to save the day, a leaky, taxpayer-funded roof over his head, a near riot going on in the stands, and most of the best players in the game long gone from the premises. David Stern, Paul Tagliabue and Gary Bettman must have fallen off their couches with laughter, if they stayed up that late. (OK, OK, and Donald Fehr, too.)

Once upon a time the baseball All-Star Game was the best of its kind in sports. It was the only place, other than a World Series, to see if Johnny Bench could hit Catfish Hunter, or Reggie Jackson could hit Tom Seaver. It was the place to see if the National League really was better than the American League. Pete Rose cared enough to run into Ray Fosse. Ted Williams played the whole game.

Now the NBA All-Star Game is a better showcase. So they don't play much defense. At least Kobe Bryant is going to be on the floor in the fourth quarter trying to win.

Winning doesn't matter any more in the baseball All-Star Game. What matters is getting everyone playing time. What matters is getting the marquee players out of the game as quickly as possible. What matters is getting them on their jets before the fans realize they've been had. The Milwaukee Embarrassment should not have been a surprise. Baseball has been asking for it.

**NuTs62** · 07-10-2002, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by ribitch
autograph prices are insane.

The allstar game should have been finished. Sure every player should get the chance to play, but the manager shouldnt blow through the pitching staff in case of extra innings.

Bud Selig is a jackass, and needs immediate replacement. In my opinion, he hasnt done anything but hurt the sport

On the topic of autograph prices.. I agree, they are expensive.. but what are many of the people, who are getting the autographs after..? To make money off a player's autograph. How can they decypher which fans want it for the sheer enjoyment that they got an autograph from their favorite player, and who's gettin it for just a quick buck or two? And if autographs were handed out to everyone, everyone would request it. They can't stand there all day signing autographs for that matter. I do partially agree that its expensive, and that they should go back to the old days and sign some balls for free.. but like many teams, its a business now.

The all-star game.. well, I agree with both sides.. it is a disappointment.. and the game was supposed to display the best, for the fans. but teams still have to win games.. it would be unfair to those teams with those last pitchers if those pitchers had to throw several innings. What I woulda done though if I were them was.. put some position player in the pitcher spot, after the pitcher got tired, and then played from there.

I think Selig's re-allignment of the leagues was pretty cool. The Giants no longer hafta fly to Atlanta for a National League WEST game.. it was stupid that Atlanta was in the western division. I'm not sure what else he's done.. but not everything he has done is a screw up. You gotta take the good in with the bad.

**attgig** · 07-10-2002, 08:26 PM

another reason to hate selig...I mean MLB
http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0710/1404343.html

Wednesday, July 10

Associated Press

NEW YORK -- As baseball prepared to resume labor negotiations following an All-Star break dominated by talk of strike, steroids and stalemate, commissioner Bud Selig claimed a team may not be able to make payroll Monday.

Selig made the comment during an interview Wednesday in Milwaukee with the Houston Chronicle and other papers, saying during the session that a second team had so much debt that it might not finish the season.

Selig did not identify the teams he was referring to, and there was no way to corroborate his claims.

The Houston Chronicle reported in Thursday's editions that Selig might have arranged to keep the Arizona Diamondbacks and Tampa Bay Devil Rays alive financially this past winter, according to its industry sources. The commissioner didn't name which teams are in financial trouble, but said one of them "will surprise you," according to the paper.

Reached at his home Wednesday night, Selig refused to discuss the subject.

"I'm done. Major league baseball's credit lines are at the maximum,'' Selig was quoted as saying in the Chronicle. "We've done everything we can to help people by arranging credit lines. Frankly, at this point in time, we don't have that luxury anymore.

"If a club can't make it, I have to let 'em go. I'm a traditionalist, and I hate all that. It pains me to do it. I just don't have any more alternatives.''

The talks are to resume Thursday.

Players and owners have not held a full negotiating session since June 27, and are far apart on all the key issues: increase revenue sharing among teams, the owners' proposal for a luxury tax to slow payroll growth, random testing for steroids and other drugs, extending the amateur draft world wide, and management's attempt to change salary arbitration rules and eligibility.

On Monday, the union's executive board met in a Chicago suburb. While the board did not set a strike date then, it asked players on individual teams to give it authority to set one. If there is no progress in negotiations, the executive board is expected to call for baseball's ninth work stoppage, setting a walkout date for August or September.

Players and owners also await the upcoming ruling from arbitrator Shyam Das, who heard the grievance filed by the union, which claims management's attempt to fold the Minnesota Twins and Montreal Expos violated the previous labor contract, which expired Nov. 7.

Das has told the sides he will attempt to have a decision by Monday. Contraction was put off by Selig until after the 2002 season following a string of legal losses by baseball in the Minnesota courts, which ruled the Twins had to honor their 2002 lease in the Metrodome.

**hapoo** · 07-10-2002, 08:46 PM

Am i the only one who thinks baseball is the most slow and boring game to watch?

**dbax791** · 07-10-2002, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by hapoo
Am i the only one who thinks baseball is the most slow and boring game to watch?

I used to think that way until the Diamondbacks got into the world series. As a casual view, its VERY slow and 162 games is just too much. But after watching the playoffs last year the games were very exciting and I gained a new appreciation for the strategies/nuances of the game.

But yeah...doesn't hold a candle to football IMO.

Only 2 weeks until training camp starts! Whoo hoo!