All fair in love in war? Or is there still Honor?

**soong** · 11-10-2002, 09:23 PM

Most of you know my situation...and it made me wonder.. how many ppl do go by that motto, all fair's in love and war. Such as no qualms about poaching girlfriends and boyfriends. If so, what about marriage? Is there any honor left?

**Jenny** · 11-10-2002, 10:21 PM

All I know is my husband & I just sat for 15 minutes "arguing" about the wife & mistress going at it over the dead husband's money & stuff.

He feels sorry for the mistress because she is having to pay so much and she is so old, etc. I don't feel a bit sorry for her.

He says the husband is more/most responsible because he was the married party in the relationship. I say maybe a little more responsible, but that the mistress is as responsible (or almost as responsible) because she knew what she was doing when she got into the relationship.

He brought up the point that maybe the husband and wife had a relationship like my parents. Constantly fighting, not able to live with each other peacefully, etc. I said (rather, yelled), "Then get a ****ING divorce."

Ok, I've ranted now.

**LegendKiller** · 11-10-2002, 10:24 PM

From my point of view, the woman deserved it. She screwed around (literally and figuratively) with a relationship for years. You dont poach another mans woman (or womans man), and you dont go for a friends sibling without express permission.

LK

**soong** · 11-10-2002, 10:26 PM

what about a friends ex? i asked...is that too much?

**johnnymk** · 11-10-2002, 11:12 PM

I chuckle when a woman goes after a married man, and when she pins him down for some kind of committment, he uses every excuse in the book to avoid going further.
When you play with fire, you're gonna get burned.

**~~Cantacuzene~~** · 11-10-2002, 11:50 PM

It all depends. Ii would never steal my best friends girl because I'm an honorable guy, but I have no qualms about stealing some random guy's girl because alls fair in love and war.

One thing people forget about medieval chivalry is that their were no set rules. The aristocracy could bend or break the rules however they wanted. Basically, honor is what you make of it.

My personal rule is to not do something so wrong/mean/unfair that will cause me to lose sleep at night. Anything less than that is OK.

**Memo** · 11-11-2002, 01:43 AM

If I steal a girl it's for nothing more than a night. If the girl will cheat on her man, there's nothing stopping her from cheating on me.

**sbp** · 11-11-2002, 04:56 AM

If a person is going to play the game, they better be prepared to reap what they sow.

Funny, oftimes the person who puts themselves into that situation, then tries to cry about the consequences.

It does seem at times in todays society there is no honor left. But look around and see how many folks stay true.

Just because others act in unwise and unhonorable ways, doesn't mean others should.

And finally, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

**molecularfire** · 11-11-2002, 10:39 AM

I may be one of the few people left in the world who is nieve enough to believe in honor, but I do. I don't expect it in others, but I do expect it in myself (although admittedly I've failed myself many times in that regard). My personal rules, 1) Never mess around with a friend's GF or ex. Even if he says it's OK. 2) Never steal someone else's girl and expect a relationship. I'm not conceited enough to think that I'm the most desirable guy in the world. There's gotta be at least one person out there more desirable than me. All that being said, a fight is a fight. I do NOT have a problem stealing the GF of an enemy just to cause him pain.

**soong** · 11-11-2002, 02:10 PM

Ouch...stealing an enemy's gf just to be mean...that is...pretty freakin mean...Generally I'd never ask a friends ex...but I have to have a set of solid feelings behind it in the first place to ask

**mojo** · 11-11-2002, 03:14 PM

you can't steal a person like an object. a person can go for your sig other, and your sig other has a choice to make. they can accept or reject the advances.

we don't live in a vacuum where nothing happens and you can control the environment. the honor would come from you knowing that you do what you can to keep your sig other happy and such. but there are a lot more variables here than just persons "a," "b," and "c." there are the personalities of each, and varying degrees and definitions of honor. but no matter how we try, we can't impose our definitions on someone else.

some things are obvious...like if you're married, you shouldn't be with another person. but the reasons behind the actions create the gray areas and the question of honor. honor has levels, and when we do things that are against the rules, use the reasoning to define the level of honor involved. maybe people don't handle things the same or individuals don't always handle stuff the best, but i'm not so sure we can use one scale to decide everything for everybody.

He says the husband is more/most responsible because he was the married party in the relationship. I say maybe a little more responsible, but that the mistress is as responsible (or almost as responsible) because she knew what she was doing when she got into the relationship.

well, he is more responsible. he's the constant in this case. if he strayed with this mistress, then if it wasn't her it would have been someone else. he's the constant. he made the vows, and didn't keep them. the mistress did have a part in it, but it wasn't her responsibility to be sure that the husband was good to his wife. she didn't owe the wife anything, but the husband did. of course, the wife didn't owe the mistress anything either, but that's another story

**soong** · 11-12-2002, 06:36 AM

Yeah... it is easy to forget that you can't just "steal" someone...they have to go willingly... and there are levels of honor, and I've certainly done very honorable and dishonorable things. But...there are certain things that I just won't do...a core belief I guess. But some ppl's core beliefs are different. Like CC said, its easy to poach someone random vs someone we know...but I've never eaten off another man's plate. I've had the chance to, but I never did. Never even told her how I felt.

**molecularfire** · 11-12-2002, 07:51 AM

I respectfully disagree with you guys. I think if someone put in enough effort and thought into it, he/she can steal someone away. Gettig a girl (this is probably also true for guys, but I haven't tried it on guys) is a series of systematic attacks on her emotions till she's so messed up that she thinks she loves you. No matter how good a relationship is going, there are always doubts. In everyone's head is a list of hopes and a list of fears. If you can convince them that you can fulfill their list of hopes and protect them from their list of fears, girls will kill for you (at that stage, getting her to lie to herself that she loves you is childs play). The only hard part is finding things on those lists that she doesn't know is there. Yes, there is free will... there's also weakness. Relationships like everything else are hard to build but really easy to destroy.

As for whether I'd go for a friend's ex... I'd like to think that I'd never let myself get to where I'd have feelings for her. IMO, if it has gotten that far, I've already betrayed my friend a little (not nearly as much as if I did anything about it), but a little nonetheless.

Ouch...stealing an enemy's gf just to be mean...that is...pretty freakin mean..

I couldn't agree with you more. That's kinda the point. Treat family like family, treat friends like friends, treat enemies like enemies and everyone else with relative apathy.

**johnnymk** · 11-12-2002, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by molecularfire
I think if someone put in enough effort and thought into it, he/she can steal someone away. Gettig a girl (this is probably also true for guys, but I haven't tried it on guys) is a series of systematic attacks on her emotions till she's so messed up that she thinks she loves you. No matter how good a relationship is going, there are always doubts. In everyone's head is a list of hopes and a list of fears. If you can convince them that you can fulfill their list of hopes and protect them from their list of fears, girls will kill for you (at that stage, getting her to lie to herself that she loves you is childs play). The only hard part is finding things on those lists that she doesn't know is there. Yes, there is free will... there's also weakness.

I don't know if you are speaking from experience or not, but preying on someone's weakness is deceitful. Even if a girl would be attracted to a guy who uses these tactics, the likelihood of that relationship lasting would be minimal. Either the girl would get sick of the constant games or the guy would get tired of the girl's shallowness and leave. Sounds like something that insurance and car salesmen use to sell unwary customers their goods.

**molecularfire** · 11-12-2002, 10:51 AM

I couldn't agree more. Anyone who does this and expects to have a lasting relationship is completely stupid. This demends the assumption that you have no respect for the girl to begin with anyways. However, love wasn't the point of this exercise, hate was. As for it being deceitful... yep. It is. Like I said, treat enemies like enemies.

**mojo** · 11-12-2002, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by molecularfire
I respectfully disagree with you guys. I think if someone put in enough effort and thought into it, he/she can steal someone away. Gettig a girl (this is probably also true for guys, but I haven't tried it on guys) is a series of systematic attacks on her emotions till she's so messed up that she thinks she loves you. No matter how good a relationship is going, there are always doubts. In everyone's head is a list of hopes and a list of fears. If you can convince them that you can fulfill their list of hopes and protect them from their list of fears, girls will kill for you (at that stage, getting her to lie to herself that she loves you is childs play). The only hard part is finding things on those lists that she doesn't know is there. Yes, there is free will... there's also weakness. Relationships like everything else are hard to build but really easy to destroy.

your thesis relies on the ability to even get close to that person. if they're happy with their relationship, they may not even talk to you

this isn't a thing where everyone is the same at all. sure, you can try stuff with anybody...i don't doubt that at all. but there are just too many variables to make this a rule. i know a lot of people that would think it's arrogant to suggest (even if you're subtle) that you can fix their problems, let alone understand them. and you would find other barriers along the way as well. some people just can't be "stolen."

**tweeteresa** · 11-12-2002, 12:28 PM

stop treating ppl like objects. they can't be bought, sold, stolen, used, give away, etc.... all you can do is love them. there are way too many obstacles and variables involved to make ANYTHING a set rule. play by the heart, not the rules.

**mojo** · 11-12-2002, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by tweeteresa
play by the heart, not the rules.

oooh, catchy. is that yours? or borrowed.

**tweeteresa** · 11-12-2002, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by mojo
oooh, catchy. is that yours? or borrowed.

its actually mine...but doesnt it seem pretty cliche? so i'm pretty sure someone else have said it before.

**Jihforce** · 11-12-2002, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by molecularfire
...I couldn't agree with you more. That's kinda the point. Treat family like family, treat friends like friends, treat enemies like enemies and everyone else with relative apathy.

Those are pretty messed up set of rules man. To purposely go out after someone guy's girl just because you hate him? That may be low, but its pretty stupid. I believe that what goes around comes around so stuff like that might end up backfiring on you.
Also, I can't imagine someone that would be so hate driven to have enemies. I guess its all that school related drama or something. Anyway, life is too short to be scheming against people you "hate"...also too short to be hating people and treating everyone else with apathy.

**molecularfire** · 11-12-2002, 01:18 PM

i know a lot of people that would think it's arrogant to suggest (even if you're subtle) that you can fix their problems, let alone understand them.

Yep, and at the same time they really like those people who they think really do understand their peoblems.

your thesis relies on the ability to even get close to that person. if they're happy with their relationship, they may not even talk to you

Only if they think I'm hitting on them. I know very few girls who when they have a relationship that they're happy with wouldn't talk to any guy.

I believe that what goes around comes around so stuff like that might end up backfiring on you.

Yeah, it is possible. If it does, it does. Life isn't always nice.

Also, I can't imagine someone that would be so hate driven to have enemies. I guess its all that school related drama or something. Anyway, life is too short to be scheming against people you "hate"...also too short to be hating people and treating everyone else with apathy.

Let's just say the list of people whom I hate is a very very short list. Actually, there is currently only one person on it, and I promised a friend that I won't do anything to him, so I'm not doing anything against this guy, period. I am more loyal to my friends than to my enemies. As for treating people you don't know with apathy, how else are you going to treat people you don't know?

People who I know and like, are friends. I treat them like friends, and I try to be as good a friend to them as possible.

btw tweeteresa... that is a really cute quote.

**Pinkgirl36** · 11-12-2002, 01:22 PM

I think that when you are happy in a relationship, you won't bother to be around anyone that will even cause you to put doubt in your mind about anything.

Honestly, if some guy were to come along and try to convince me that I wasn't happy or that he would treat me better or he was better for me, first I'd prolly punch him in the face, then tell him to **** off cuz he doesn't know anything about my relationship.

People like that just see what they want to see, yeah maybe he would see me one time when I'm crying or something because we got in an argument, but that is one time compared to the prolly million other times that he has made me happy and stuff...

And I think with a good relationship, each person would know the other persons fears about the relationship and try to get rid of those fears.

And lastly, it's sad that people can so easily hurt someone that they love for someone else that they think they love....

**tweeteresa** · 11-12-2002, 01:31 PM

i think its just sad when ppl hurt those they love. especially on purpose. it doesnt matter the reason because i dont believe any reason can justify that.

**molecularfire** · 11-12-2002, 01:32 PM

Yeah, the main problem with relationships are that people expect it to be always roses and sunshine. When something happens, they start to have doubts. Too many people don't realize that a relationship requires work (sometimes even when you may not even want to). I think it's sad too...

great, now I've depressed myself.

**mojo** · 11-12-2002, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by molecularfire
Only if they think I'm hitting on them.

not really. this isnt a world where just anyone will talk to anyone. this board kinda reflects this, in that people are more inclined to listen to certain people and not others. basic rules of attraction still apply, and if they're not attracted on some level at first, you can *try* still...but you can't just coerce someone to like you. you can invest all the time in the world and still have no guarantee. that's pretty much life.

i can see where you're coming from on a psychological level really. and i've heard all kinds of schemes and such that are just variations on the premise. you may be able to get some people with this approach. maybe even a lot. but not everyone. we're not all for sale, you know

**welfareloser** · 11-12-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by sbp
If a person is going to play the game, they better be prepared to reap what they sow.

Funny, oftimes the person who puts themselves into that situation, then tries to cry about the consequences.

yep. if you wanna go after someone who is "technically" in another relationship, and you have some way of justifying it to yourself (or not! maybe you just wanna do it and you don't care) fine. every situation is unique and there's no good way to come up with many rules of right and wrong. but, yeah, anyone who gets upset because someone is in another realtionship, cheating with them, and *gasp* won't leave and commit to them... well, you can't bitch too much.

**attgig** · 11-12-2002, 02:03 PM

INTEGRITY

forget the grey areas...

stop trying to walk the tightrope between right and wrong.

**soong** · 11-12-2002, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by molecularfire
I respectfully disagree with you guys. I think if someone put in enough effort and thought into it, he/she can steal someone away. Gettig a girl (this is probably also true for guys, but I haven't tried it on guys) is a series of systematic attacks on her emotions till she's so messed up that she thinks she loves you. No matter how good a relationship is going, there are always doubts. In everyone's head is a list of hopes and a list of fears. If you can convince them that you can fulfill their list of hopes and protect them from their list of fears, girls will kill for you (at that stage, getting her to lie to herself that she loves you is childs play). The only hard part is finding things on those lists that she doesn't know is there. Yes, there is free will... there's also weakness. Relationships like everything else are hard to build but really easy to destroy.

Holy cow when you say it like that...it is stealing...i think i've fallen prey to this scheme myself...well not me but my SO

**welfareloser** · 11-12-2002, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by attgig
INTEGRITY

forget the grey areas...

stop trying to walk the tightrope between right and wrong.

there are gray areas no matter how much you might like to ignore them.

is it wrong to talk someone into leaving an abusive relationship? no. black and white. always try to talk someone out of it.

what if you fall in love with that person while talking them out of this relationship, and that person also falls in love with you? should you artificially hold back feelings when acting on them would probably enrich both of your lives? seems stupid. okay, maybe you'll say you should hold back for a certain amount of time, blah, blah, blah... what if the abuser is your friend? in most honor systems, that makes the person you've fallen in love with off-limits forever. seems stupid.

that's one very fuzzy border between right and wrong, and i'm sure most of us could come up with many more. love is all shades of gray, and trying to cram it into black-and-white pigeonholes leaves a lot to be desired.

**Sir_Froggy** · 11-13-2002, 09:08 PM

i don't think that people are so screwed up yet that they will do anything to get someone to like them. i'd think that real friends would not screw their each other over...

except that brings to mind that one Simpsons where Bart dates McBanes' daughter then he breaks up with her, then Milhouse starts dating that girl

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