Blue Eyes vs Brown Eyes

[TofuNinja]

Have you guys seen this study... awesome stuff....it is amazing how much people get into this.

[CornMonkey]

Originally posted by TofuNinja
Have you guys seen this study... awesome stuff....it is amazing how much people get into this.

am i missing something here?

[TofuNinja]

sorry here are two links on this study. Just pulled them off of Yahoo. jane elliott is awesome. Watched two videoes on her in my Multicultural education class.

http://www.horizonmag.com/4/jane-elliott.asp
http://www.magenta.nl/EyetoEye/contraste.html

[TofuNinja]

Originally posted by CornMonkey


am i missing something here?

Basic concept is that she was teaching in an all white school in a little farm town. A few days before Martin Luther King was shot and killed. The kids had no idea why or who he was. They were all white. So she came up with a discrimination lesson. She discriminated them on the color of their eyes so they can feel what it is like. She taught thema valuable lesson about discrimination and how bad it is.

[CornMonkey]

ooooh, nice. that's for the info.

[sbp]

Nice way to make people feel guilty on account of race.

This woman needs to start living in the real world.

Just more feel good bs gobbledygook.

I don't need to feel Soul Brother pain. I can feel his ingestion when we go out tomorrow to an all you can eat buffet.

[latingirl]

Originally posted by sbp
Nice way to make people feel guilty on account of race.

This woman needs to start living in the real world.

Just more feel good bs gobbledygook.

I don't need to feel Soul Brother pain. I can feel his ingestion when we go out tomorrow to an all you can eat buffet.

Oh, Lord....

[Cantacuzene]

Regardless of what motivated her to do the experiment, its still valid and I think you are being a touch insensitive SBP. For someone who wants people to "come to the real world" you seem strangely out of touch yourself.

[Pinkgirl36]

Originally posted by sbp
Nice way to make people feel guilty on account of race.

This woman needs to start living in the real world.

Just more feel good bs gobbledygook.

I don't need to feel Soul Brother pain. I can feel his ingestion when we go out tomorrow to an all you can eat buffet.

oh geez, if I am going to end up as mean and hateful as you are when I get old...some please kill me know!
I'm such a bitch aren't I?

Also, I think that what this lady has done has taught kids alot, and it has helped them to see that just because people are "different" then you it doesn't mean that they are anyless or more then a person, and honestly, that is something that kids need to know.

[sbp]

Frankly I consider this study a waste of time and more garbage being shoved down people's throats. If you want to eat it up, go right ahead, some of us have much better things to do thank you.

This whole thing is based on the faulty assumption that white people don't experience discrimination in this country and elsewhere. Wrong!

What it gets down to is some patting themselves on the back for being oh so enlightened versus other people who actually practice it.

It really isn't all that difficult to treat people fairly, so it should stop being made like its impossible.

See it don't matter to me if a person is 300 lb with an eye on top of their head. Or even look like this fellow. As long as they get the job done, that is what matters. And if a person is dependable and standup, they can have your back and you theirs.

[GraingerGuy]

Originally posted by sbp

See it don't matter to me if a person is 300 lb with an eye on top of their head. Or even look like this fellow. As long as they get the job done, that is what matters. And if a person is dependable and standup, they can have your back and you theirs.

The problem is not everyone thinks like you do sbp. Some folks see a black guy and a white guy and will automatically think that the black guy is going to be the laziest of the two. Plain and simple. Most everyone has preconceieved notions about the various races that are out there.

I'm not saying that whites don't get discrimintated against cause they do, but the fact is dicrimination happens. I think she is just trying to teach that discrimination is bad, and if this lady wants to teach about this...more power to her.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by sbp

This whole thing is based on the faulty assumption that white people don't experience discrimination in this country and elsewhere. Wrong!

It really isn't all that difficult to treat people fairly, so it should stop being made like its impossible.

as to the first one... you're the only one making a faulty assumption here. it is NOT based on the assumption that white people do not experience discrimination. women do. short men do. tall women do. ugly or overweight people do. young people, old people, etc.

this study is based on the fact that it might give kids something to think about to suddenly suffer very pervasive discrimination based solely on meaningless cosmetic traits. being ugly won't get you a date, but it probly won't hamper your ability to get a job. being a woman may get in the way of getting a certain kind of job, but it won't get in the way of your getting (most kinds of) dates.

as to the second point... for many, it really IS that difficult to treat people fairly. sometimes, despite sensitivity training, it still doesn't happen. there was a study done in a school to monitor teachers; it was shown to them that they gave boys more attention than girls. the teachers had a rule that you had to be quiet and politely raise your hand to answer a question. girls were more likely to follow the rule; girls were also MUCH more likely to be yelled at and punished if they did not follow the rule. boys were more likely to break the rule, and more likely to be called on, even when they jumped around and yelled out to get attention. they were also rarely punished when they simply answered without waiting to be called on.

so the results of the study were presented to the teachers. the teachers were roundly horrified by the discrepencies. they wanted to be fair. they went back to their classrooms aware of the problem and intending to fix it.

it didn't get any better. the study continued, and there was little significant change in the teachers' behavior.

in some situations, and for some people, it takes a lot of effort, or training, etc, to put fairness into effect even when they WANT to do it.

[johnnymk]

Very few people practice what they preach or what society tells them is politically correct to feel sensitive to.They may spout off about how sensitive they are, but in reality, are just bags of hot air.
There was a black, blind man at work who had a food concession stand years ago. I asked him which kind of person he preferred: the fellow who openly declared that he dislked blacks or the person who pretended that he wasn't prejudiced and possibly didn't care for him as a black person. He said he preferred the first person.

[molecularfire]

I kinda agree with sbp (I can't believe that I'm saying this). Simply put, I doubt that in the long run what she did would have done any good (although I don't have a problem with her doing it for kicks). Simply put, people are not going to change. Kids are not going to base their life on one event. If the people around them stop being racist, so will them. If black people (or browns, yellows, whites, reds, greens, whatever) want people to quit being racist, then as a group, you have to become so competent that they have no choice to put up with you. From now on, my example will be using black people, but the same basic concept applies to all races. Look at black athletes. It wasn't that long ago when they were fighting to be able to play, and now they are the majority in the NBA. Now, if black people can reach the same level of success (heck, if they as a society put in the same effort) in other fields other than sports then they will be more successful at getting rid of racism.

The other way is just to do so much cross breeding that we destroy the racial line period. So... does anyone want a little chinese/vietnamese blood in their line?

[TofuNinja]

The fact that she is still doing her lessons on discrimination shows that her methods work. She has been on Opera. She was not making the point that Whites do not get discriminated and there fore she did this. She was trying to give these kids (we are talking about 1st to 3rd graders here) a lesson on tolerance. That because someone is different from you, thinks differently from you, or whatever, that you do not and should not hate them and be mean to them etc. She has done with with Businesses for diversity training. It makes people think about the shoes and roles of others.

Take Arabs for example, how many of us hate Arabs blindly for the acts of one group? Go back a few years how many people hated Russians? Hated Blacks? For no other reason then that they were different from us and we feared that difference? Not all Arabs are going to fly airplans into our homes, or blow up our cars and do acts of terrorism.

What she has done, her former students and people who have been to her workshops will say, is made people take a step back, look at the hatred they may be spewing, then put themselves in those shoes and talk about how they felt when they were hated on or when they wer doing the hating. Then they get a better understanding of tolerance and diversity.

Let's face it, we do not live in a world were one race is the master race, everyone has to learn to live together, regardless of sex, ethnic, reigion or culture and age.

She basically took a idea that was too complex for little 3rd graders to understand and made it simple so that they could understand why racism is bad.

Now if you are all for racism well I guess that's your bag... I for one think that Racism is horrid and if there is a way to educate kids and adults, in a simple way, so that racism slows down or stop then I'm for it.

ANd that is all she is trying to do, is make the world a better place. If you want to laugh at her.... well if you believe in the bible and all they laughed at Noah, Moses and Jesus as well. And they laughed at Martin Luther King Jr, and Gaundi, and JFK Jr. too.

[welfareloser]

Originally posted by molecularfire
Simply put, people are not going to change. Kids are not going to base their life on one event. If the people around them stop being racist, so will them.

you're not even making sense here. people can change. for example, society as a whole has changed from being largely tolerant of lynchings to largely intolerant of them.

sometimes, there IS one pivotal event that you remember forever, and it really does make an impact on how you live your life. maybe this event was just that for one of those kids. it probably wasn't for most. HOWEVER...

a shift in attitude comes about due to an accumulation of lots of minor events. people become less bigoted as they are exposed to situations which illustrate the unfairness, wrongheadedness, and damage of bigotry. this lesson was a nice little event. throw in a few more life lessons and some maturity, and these kids will become a little less bigoted. "it doesn't do the whole job and thus the lesson was stupid" is a stupid argument.

if people around them stop being bigoted, so will they... well, how is that supposed to happen? some people will never change. others will change. they will change if they are assaulted with the constant message that bigotry is not okay.

it's like trying to make the argument that there's no point in showing someone a movie about lung cancer because smokers never change. with anti-smoking commercials, warning labels on products, many public establishments saying "smoking is not okay here," etc, lots of smokers ARE getting the message and quitting.

[Showtime]

Human nature is basically cruel and petty. Racism isn't always a learned behaivor.
If a group of children grew up by themselves on a deserted island with no one to teach them racism, they would grow up and segregate themselves eventually. Maybe not the 1st few generations but eventually they would find differences and use them to identify each other. If outsiders came there would be distrust etc.
We now live in a time where we have access to all kinds of information about people. We can use that negatively or positively.
I love different cultures. The foods, the languages, the traditions........woman . Your not betraying your race by enjoying and appreciating other cultures. You are betraying yourself if you miss out on new experience cuz of distrust.
I sometimes ask people why they feel negatively toward different races. There are some legit cases, but mostly I've heard bs. People put others down so that they can feel good just cuz they were born a certain color.
sbp,
Don't carry the white mans burden. You never enslaved anyone, you never discriminated by the color of skin. You might want to be a little more sensitive though. Were all brothers.

-jel

[molecularfire]

Racism is a "learned" experience...

A kid is not "born" racist... they are taught to like/dislike certain people for the most part.

As an experiment... what would happen if you were to take the newborn child of a known racist, and raise that child in a home of person of the race his/her parents hated? Would the child still grow up to hate those people? (I doubt it... especially if the home they were raised in was a loving/supporting evironment.)

Ok... first of all, I didn't NOT say that kids are born racist. What I said was that a kid will look at the world around them and assume that that is the way they should live life. Did she make the kids feel bad about racism for a second...yes. It's just that IMO if these kids are going back into homes where the people are racist I doubt that that one event is going to change that.

Now as far as Blacks in sports go... I've said this many, many times. For SOME of us... athleticism is a "natural talent". Not all of us have that talent, but many do. Growing up in certain environments lend themselves to our excelling in sports since for the most part that is all that is available. (i.e. there's a basketball court in nearly every Ghetto... however I have yet to see a golf course in the same area...)

With the desire to excel at those sports... we have added motivation to go farther there, since for the most part that is one of the few avenues available for Blacks to "make it big time". The business world hasn't opened up in the same way and we are still struggling to get a firm foothold there... but yet that's another story.

I still stand by my belief (cold as it may seem) that as long as blacks as a population believe that, then they will never get to a better position in society. Why shouldn't intelligence and hard work be a "natural talent" for blacks. I'm not criticizing those who are good at sports. They have a talent, and have worked off their rears to develop that talent despite resistance against them. I'm criticizing those who aren't good at sports for not working their rears off to be good at something else. Motivation should come from within... quit waiting for someone to give it to you. There are a LOT of people out there who do NOT want you to succeed. The only way you're going to get anywhere is by being so good at something that they have to put up with you. That's why they call it tolerance.

BTW... forget about "amalgamating" the races, that just ain't gonna happen. We have way to many "cultural differences" to have one homogeneous "American Race". The best we can do is to just to try to get along with one another and "understand" where each other is coming from with an absence of bias and pre-judgement (Yeah... right.

I disagree. While I don't think it is possible to ever be free of racism... wait till the martians come. I really can see blacks, hispanics, asians, indians, whites, etc... all coming together to kick the crap out of some poor little martian kid for no good reason but because he's green and we really don't want him messing up our human heritage.

you're not even making sense here. people can change. for example, society as a whole has changed from being largely tolerant of lynchings to largely intolerant of them.

No we haven't. We've just quit using rocks to do it. Now we use public opinions and lawyers. Same difference.

a shift in attitude comes about due to an accumulation of lots of minor events. people become less bigoted as they are exposed to situations which illustrate the unfairness, wrongheadedness, and damage of bigotry. this lesson was a nice little event. throw in a few more life lessons and some maturity, and these kids will become a little less bigoted. "it doesn't do the whole job and thus the lesson was stupid" is a stupid argument.

I never said that I thought what she was doing was stupid. I just think that in the long run it'll be pretty fruitless. These kids saw that it sucked to be descriminated against, yes. But, finding out that you don't enjoy having something done to you, and turning around and doing it to someone else are two completely different things. I think it's a cute story, and I have nothing against her doing it. She can teach in whatever way she feels like IMO unless she's doing damage (and I don't think she is doing any damage).

it's like trying to make the argument that there's no point in showing someone a movie about lung cancer because smokers never change. with anti-smoking commercials, warning labels on products, many public establishments saying "smoking is not okay here," etc, lots of smokers ARE getting the message and quitting.

Yes, but that's because there is a really big push against smoking. Heck, with the TV ads, and stuff they're making it a fad to quit smoking. That's just my point. One event is NOT going to get people to quit (heck, they've written on packs of cigs. for years that smoking will kill you. They've shown videos of screwed up lungs in schools for years. Didn't do much good). People didn't quit smoking until they made it popular to quit smoking. Same thing with race relations. It's not going to do any good IMO for a person to tell you that blacks are not bad, lazy incompetent people. That will only come from constant exposure to a bunch of nice, hardworking competent black people. The only problem that I have is that there are not nearly enough of them out there.

[molecularfire]

I never said that you DID say that kids are born racist... I only added that they aren't. That wasn't a "pointing finger" comment towards you, but it looks like you took it that way.

Sorry then. It's just that you quoted me then said that. That and my initial statemnts weren't well thought out, so I thought that there was a chance someone could've misinterpreted what I wrote.

And yeah... the "environment" in which these kids live in is EXACTLY the reason why they learn these concepts of racism. But what is the chance that any of the parents of these kids are teaching these kids NOT to be racist... hmm. Probaly on a slim fraction of those households are.

If your parents are racist, you'll see it. If they aren't, you'll see it. Being racist isn't something that parents sit their kids down and tell them. It's learned from their behaviors.

And I'm still gonna tell ya that it doesn't matter of you have a Black person that is both INTELLEGENT and HARD WORKING... As long as society in general (i.e. those who really control the power) continue to foster the belief that minorities (not just Blacks BTW) should not be given opportunities, then there really ain't gonna be much that can be done to break through this barrier.

I disagree. I'm not white, I'm asian. Is there racism against us, yes. Have we as a people moved further into getting accepted, I think so. People look at asians (even racist people) different than they look at blacks because we went about getting what we want a different way. We worked hard and infiltrated into their system when they weren't looking. Next thing they knew, they turned around and realized that we were too important to kick out. Not nearly as flashy as going around making speeches about how you should be given better treatment, but it got the job done.

Your example would be ok if there were no barriers to "doing your own thang" and succeeding, however most of the standard avenues of success and greatness are already being covered/controlled by guess who? (Somebody in the "majority"). Unless you can miraculously create/invent/develop something that no one has already thought of, then you are stuck with dealing with the current system at hand.

I never said that there are no barriers. Heck, there are a LOT of barriers. There were barriers when black athletes were trying to be taken seriously also. Do you have to work much harder than a white person to get to the same spot... yes. But, if you're not willing to do that, then you're kids will. Sooner or later someone will do it... I'd like to save my kids the hassle.

BTW... while we are on the topic. Most Blacks that I know aren't sittin' on a fortune to begin with. Add to that the difficulties some of us have in even procuring the "finances" to even try to make something out of nothing and you get to see yet another "barrier" in place. (BTW... who controls the majority of banks and lending institutions around here? Hmmmm?) One way or another, most of us will have to get some help from somebody... and if they aren't willing to help, then basically you don't get anywhere fast. Basically, we have the general understanding that we are only gonna get as far as the powerbrokers allow us to (for now... who knows what the future might bring.)

Yes... I never said that it was going to be easy. My parents put together make about $20,000/year and have raised 5 kids on it. In my high school, about 7 people (out of almost 400 graduates) actually got into a 4 year university. I am currently almost $200,000 in debt and by the time I get out of here will be about a third of a million dollars in debt. Within 10 years, I will be pretty well to do and my kids will have the advantage of having a father who is set up enough that he can help them get what they want from life without as much work as he had to do. Was everybody nice to me along the way? No. If I was a rich white kid would I have to work as hard? No. However, I'm not a rich white kid, and I'm not going to get anywhere complaining about what I don't have.

I hear what you are sayin' in your examples... however, until you live the life of an "average" Black man, I generally don't think that you really understand the "hidden" challenges that we face. And that's comin' from a Black man who is both intelligent and hard workin'... Ya dig?

I'm not trying to pretend that I know how it feels to be an average black man. Heck, I don't want to be a black man. I think you guys are going about getting what you want the wrong way.

[molecularfire]

(Honestly, I don't forsee the "power-that-be" giving up their place that easily, but like I said... who knows what the future holds)

I agree. That's why people should quit waiting around for the powers that be to give up their place and do what you can to TAKE it.

Whether or not racism is around, Parents CAN play an important part in DISCOURAGING their kids to participate in racism. Now if they see it happening and don't do anything about it, then they're just as good as teachin' them to be racist by sendin' the sign that is is "ok". Once again, either way... it's a learned experience.

Yeah. I do agree with this. Once again, I don't have a problem at all with what she did. Personally, I just don't think that in the long run it's going to do any good. Now... if their parents were serious about teaching their kids to not be racist... I can see how that would be very useful.

[PreDatoR]

Ya i love it when others say that white people are never discriminated... i'm white and i deal with that $h!t every day... You live in a county that is 61% hispanic 32% white and the rest idians and whatnot... I love how "the minority" always plays the race cards when in most cases they are more racist than anyone else is... I judge people on a case by case basis... I don't care if your white black blue purple green or pink... If i don't like you i don't like you. Personality and attitude go a long ways with me... skin color don't mean squat... one of my best friends is half black and half indian and i tell ya there is nothing that we wouldn't do for each other. There's just A LOT of thick headed people that have to play the race cards that really screw it up for everyone else...

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by PreDatoR
I judge people on a case by case basis... I don't care if your white black blue purple green or pink...

Problem is that what you just said is the general statement made by most racists.

[PreDatoR]

I'm not most, don't believe me i could care less... i know how i think and i know how i judge people if you wish to call me a racist so be it... ignorance is bliss...

[Cantacuzene]

I didn't say you were a racist. I was just pointing out that most racists don't admit to being one. In fact most racists don't even realize it, let alone admit it.

[jonEwantsM3]

is it me or is it getting hot in herrrre...

Going back to the woman in the article, i think what she did was noteworthy. Theres nothing wrong with trying to do something that you think is right.


I didnt read the article but i'm responding to what you guys posted.

so slap me if i'm totally off topic

[sbp]

Originally posted by GraingerGuy
The problem is not everyone thinks like you do sbp.

Is that a good thing or bad thing?

Some folks see a black guy and a white guy and will automatically think that the black guy is going to be the laziest of the two.

Or they see an Irish guy and automatically assume he's drunk. Now where'd that whiskey bottle go?

Originally posted by DarkFury
Even though many Whites "sympathize" with the ordeals Blacks have had to endure, they still didn't get to actually "taste" it like my Parents and Grandparents did.

May have been longer ago but some groups of whites did "taste" it. Memories fade over time...

imo the problem with diversity or sensitivity training classes is that they are not diverse. Shouldn't it take a variety of viewpoints, not just non-whites? It seemed from the provided links that this class was being taught that way. And it certainly seemed Mrs. Elliott believes that racism is a "White attitudinal problem." Wonder what she thinks of places where there is racism and no white people live. Perhaps they also need the diversity cottage industry to be hired and come in.

Overcoming the racial barrier is a great challenge. Much work remains to be done.

Originally posted by my new found brother the jello is jigglin
Were all brothers.

True. And if you was really me brother, you'd have good beer awaiting.

Now how would pay money to see overt racists like the New Black panthers and the KKK in this class?

[sbp]

Originally posted by DarkFury
Do you have any particular places in mind that have this kind of racism? (where no Whites are involved?)

In China Africans were attacked by Chinese guys cause they were worried about Chinese women being "stolen".

I don't think you can have "racism" without different races... but for "some odd reason", the Caucasian race has seemed to find its way into the mix of alot of these situations. Hmmmm... interesting eh?

Well there aren't a lot of races and the world is such today that every race can be found pretty much everywhere.

[sbp]

The points are well taken. Still at its heart this type of behavior is not right and shows how difficult group behavior {inherent?) can be to overcome. Perhaps today's West even with its flaws should be taken note of. Of course some cultures already have a policy of inclusive openness.

Over time diverse populations and group interactions is an issue other countries around the globe will increasingly have to face. They will go though some of what the US and other countries have gone through.

Example: Ireland was a lilly white country. Now over the pass decade people from Bosnia, Africa, and Philippines have immigrated. The result: I'm picking up on some racial type comments being made. Funny and they {Irish} used to talk about the US.

A few years ago some Irish relatives of mine came over. They had this impression that blacks and whites were at each others throats. Then they saw what the US was really like-people of different colors working side by side and doing stuff in the same places. What a learning experience.

"All Men are Created Equal" but are not born into the same circumstances. That is a major part of the problem with the result folks from the start are running behind. Some are able to overcome this, others do not. For starters better leadership, especially black leadership, is needed to confront hard issues and not look for simplistic solutions. In addition, people as individuals, families, communities, groups, etc. should be expected to do more for themselves with high standards. And even when people come from equal backgrounds, equal results are not seen.

Something can be listened to but not acted upon or agreed with. Unless one is a married man, then all bets are off.

Some countries may be in favor of equality. But only lip service is done and they don't do squat about it. Or everyone is equal and equal=crap.

There are far too places where people are being slaughtered over religion, tribal affliation, etc and people treated poorly.

[Cantacuzene]

Originally posted by sbp
Or they see an Irish guy and automatically assume he's drunk. Now where'd that whiskey bottle go?

Its amazing that you can tell the difference between an irish man and an englishman walking down the street just by looking at them. Its been my experiance that they look similar. There is a big difference between national and racial stereotypes.

Just wanted to pop into this thread, no real arguement here.

[sbp]

Originally posted by Cantacuzene who was looking for any reason to criticize
Its amazing that you can tell the difference between an irish man and an englishman walking down the street just by looking at them. Its been my experiance that they look similar. There is a big difference between national and racial stereotypes.

Just wanted to pop into this thread, no real arguement here.

Got|facetious?