Those who drank at least three days a week had about one-third fewer heart attacks than did non-drinkers. And it made almost no difference whether the drinking consisted of half a drink or four. Those who imbibed only once or twice a week had only a 16 percent lower risk of a heart attack.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/condi....ap/index.html
I heard that also this morning on the news, three drinks per week is good for your heart or something along those lines. Then they jokingly said that your HMO wants to drop you because you aren't drinking three times a week and your boss wants to fire you because you are...Originally posted by nickelback
[i]Those who drank at least three days a week had about one-third fewer heart attacks than did non-drinkers. And it made almost no difference whether the drinking consisted of half a drink or four. Those who imbibed only once or twice a week had only a 16 percent lower risk of a heart attack
on nbc they said 2 drinks a day and that if you only had 3-5 a week it was much less affective
npr said you're better off drinking 2 or less drinks on most days.
yeah, pretty much we missed the boat on that one. but it's still here. get you some.
NEWS FLASH: YOU CAN GET ALL THESE BENEFITS BY DRINKING A GLASS OF GRAPE JUICE.
This is just as bad as the people who think we should smoke weed because "Jesus did."
Got|Proof?Originally posted by Cantacuzene
NEWS FLASH: YOU CAN GET ALL THESE BENEFITS BY DRINKING A GLASS OF GRAPE JUICE. This is just as bad as the people who think we should smoke weed because "Jesus did."
Juice has no alcohol, and I would think it is the alcohol which acts as a relaxant that would lead to fewer heart attacks over the long run. Unless the data says otherwise, I'm sticking with agreeing with the research provided.
You think if someone gave Jesus a bud, he could make enough weed out of it for everyone?
Common sense is what tells you the Earth is flat.
yeh, i'd like to see some proof, too. i don't think grape juice cuts it. wine falls in the same category of course, but not because of the grapes, because of the alcohol.Originally posted by Cantacuzene
NEWS FLASH: YOU CAN GET ALL THESE BENEFITS BY DRINKING A GLASS OF GRAPE JUICE.
This is just as bad as the people who think we should smoke weed because "Jesus did."
site some articles or studies on your grape juice theory Canta. it doesn't provide the protection against a heart attack like alcohol in moderation on most days does.
1. This research proves nothing. All they did was sample people to see whether moderate drinkers have healthier hearts than non-drinkers. They DID NOT do any empiracle tests based on experimentation. All they did was statistical data.
2. Correlation does not equal causality. Just because oranges are fruits and oranges taste good does not mean all fruit tastes good. They did not test for other factors or establish any constants. It seems that healthier people drink occasionally, but it does not prove that people who drink occasionally are healthier. Understand the difference?
3. It has not been proven that the alcohol is the factor which may cause the supposed health gain. Red wine is considered the best for you for obvious reasons: its made from grapes. Look at the nutrition facts on a bottle of grape juice compared to a bottle of apple juice. The grape juice is much, much healthier.
Oh and btw, here ya go...
http://www.medformation.com/mf/stayh.../article/13948
http://pulse.ucdavis.edu/scripts/arc...ine_heart.html
http://www.americanheart.org/present...dentifier=4422
A few choice excerpts...
Others are examining the potential benefits of components in red wine such as flavonoids (FLAV'oh-noidz) and other antioxidants (an"tih-OK'sih-dants) in reducing heart disease risk. Some of these components may be found in other foods such as grapes or red grape juice. Another area of controversy is that the linkage reported in many of these studies may be due to other lifestyle factors rather than alcohol. Such factors may include increased physical activity and a diet high in fruits and vegetables.Research is being done to find out if the benefits of drinking wine or alcohol may be due to one or more factors, including an increased intake of antioxidants, an increase in HDL ("good") cholesterol or anti-clotting properties. Clinical trials of some antioxidants such as vitamin E have not shown any cardio-protective effect. Also, antioxidants can be obtained from many fruits and vegetables, including red grape juice.
Ok, ok Canta. But I'd still prefer to drink wine or beer or bourbon than grape juice.
Common sense is what tells you the Earth is flat.
I like to ferment my grape juice into a nice merlot.
They asked the oldest woman in America if there was anything she did to stay healthy. She said she didn't do anything different than anyone else, except that she had a beer every day.
The oldest woman in Okanawa<sp> sayd she had a drink of saki every day.
People are not saying that getting drunk is good for you, just drinking small quantities can have benificial results. An Apple Pucker a day keeps the doctor away.
canta is right on.
these studies are bulls*** that has very little, if any, value for real life.
using a data set, i bet i can find a correlation between people who watch PBS and people who have fewer heart attacks.
there are a hell of a lot of factors that determine things like who will have a heart attack, and this study examined one that MIGHT POSSIBLY have some influence. in addition to the fact that the sample groups is EXTREMELY unrepresentative of the population as a whole, and then the researchers further skewed it by removing people who had a history of heart problems, they take one factor and try to draw a conclusion from it.
did they compare diets, levels of exercise, levels of income, environmental factors, levels of stress, levels of medical care, and personal factors? if they did, they didn't find it necessary to mention it
"scientists" do these "studies" all the time and then the media, not being smart enough to know how to look at regression testing and how valid it is, read the two-paragraph summary at the beginning of the paper and write an article about it.
it's not real science; it's a joke.
come on you guys.
alcohol is a blood thinner. that very simply explains why it lessens the risk of a heart attack when imbibed on most days so that the effect remains pretty constant.
just because you don't drink alcohol you don't hafta act like it is the devil
and Canta, i know grape juice/wine, hence grapes, are good for cholesterol lowering effects due to their flavanoids, but that doesn't work on the same principal as blood thinning alcohol does. that is what makes wine so kickass. it has the alcohol AND the flavanoids going for it.
those dudes, are the facts.
if i remember reading correctly, Canta was plastered NYE, so I'm gonna guess he drinks, quite often, judging by what he's alluded to, in some random threadsOriginally posted by nickelback
just because you don't drink alcohol you don't hafta act like it is the devil
yeh, he got tanked on grape juice.
and i wasn't referring to just Canta.
hey Nija, how about a "yeh nickel, you are right about the alcohol and grape juice dealio not being the same mechanism."
wouldn't that be nice of you?
did she say nice?
would be, if I was a nice guy, but i'm not so bugger offOriginally posted by nickelback
wouldn't that be nice of you?
did she say nice?
i know you are a nice guy, you just have a hard time showing itOriginally posted by Nija
would be, if I was a nice guy, but i'm not so bugger off
)
"bugger off, you bastard bugger off. f*ck you!"
do you know that tune?
I'm inclined to think it's the Sex Pistols, but I know I'm wrong.Originally posted by nickelback
i know you are a nice guy, you just have a hard time showing it
"bugger off, you bastard bugger off. f*ck you!"
do you know that tune?
mmm wheat thins... these keep the doctor away
Yup, I do drink, but I'm the last one who will claim its good for me.
The blood thinning properties of alcohol have nothing to do with lowering the risk of heart disease. Read the links I posted. They clearly debunk the myth.
i don't have to read any of that. i know thinner blood has less chance of clotting. no clotting = no myocardial infarction
Too bad you're wrong. And you can't say, "show me proof!" and then when I show you proof say, "I dont need to read any of that, I'm right anyway!"Originally posted by nickelback
i don't have to read any of that. i know thinner blood has less chance of clotting. no clotting = no myocardial infarction
Bad form.
you're just mad that you spend all that time finding links to put your grape juice up on a pedestal, and i could care less to read 'em.
newflash: you still didn't prove that alcohol and grape juice are equal.NEWS FLASH: YOU CAN GET ALL THESE BENEFITS BY DRINKING A GLASS OF GRAPE JUICE.
Bad form? oh yeah, you think you are the judge and jury dontcha?
Just a minor point, but you didn't show any proof (and for that matter, neither did the first study in this thread). The first article you linked to was a summary which claims that grapes have the same effect as wine, but didn't give any sources. Just because it's on the internet doesn't make it true. The third link from the AHA only said "Some of these components may be found in other foods such as grapes or red grape juice." Basically saying that they don't know, just another summary of different points of view.Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Too bad you're wrong. And you can't say, "show me proof!" and then when I show you proof say, "I dont need to read any of that, I'm right anyway!"
Bad form.
The second link was a study from a doctor at UC Davis. So basically this boils down to one study vs. another study. No offense, but your "proof" give me no more reason to believe you than the first study gives me reason to believe the opposite point. In fact, the article about that study basically states that is is not yet proof: "DR. KAPPAGODA'S CURRENT RESEARCH IS AIMED AT TRYING TO ESTABLISH THAT FOR SURE."
What I'm saying is that there's nothing to say that one study is better than the other. "Proof" is a very strong word.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go drink some alcohol and improve my heart (or maybe not, either way I'll enjoy it!)
canta,Originally posted by Cantacuzene
Oh and btw, here ya go...
http://www.medformation.com/mf/stayh.../article/13948
http://pulse.ucdavis.edu/scripts/arc...ine_heart.html
http://www.americanheart.org/present...dentifier=4422
A few choice excerpts...
the first 2 articles you've posted deal with the the fact that flavinoids are good for you, and that flavinoids are also available in grape juice. here are some quotes from the research article in question:
andSome research says red wine has the most benefit on the heart, but this study clearly shows that white wine, beer, vodka, scotch — any form of alcohol — has exactly the same effect.
so therefore, your first two articles do nothing to support your newsflash. nickle is indeed correct that the conclusions are that the blood thining effects of alcohol, not flavinoids are responsible for the reduced risk of heart attacks.But the new study adds to the evidence that it is the alcohol itself, and not something found only in red wine, such as red pigment, that is good for the heart.
here is a quote from your third link:
the AHA's own website acutally says moderate drinkers hae a lower heart disease rate that nondrinkers.AHA Recommendation
If you drink alcohol, do so in moderation. This means an average of one to two drinks per day for men and one drink per day for women. (A drink is one 12 oz. beer, 4 oz. of wine, 1.5 oz. of 80-proof spirits, or 1 oz. of 100-proof spirits.) Moderate drinkers have lower heart disease risk than nondrinkers. However, drinking more alcohol increases such public health dangers as alcoholism, high blood pressure, obesity, stroke, breast cancer, suicide and accidents. Given these and other risks, the American Heart Association cautions people NOT to start drinking ... if they do not already drink alcohol. Consult your doctor on the benefits and risks of consuming alcohol in moderation.
i'd say that third link does nothing to supoort your newsflash either.
yeah, pretty much we missed the boat on that one. but it's still here. get you some.
why do you say that the sample group is unrepresenative?Originally posted by whitak24
in addition to the fact that the sample groups is EXTREMELY unrepresentative of the population as a whole, and then the researchers further skewed it by removing people who had a history of heart problems, they take one factor and try to draw a conclusion from it.
38,077 is a lot of people. it makes sense to me that they would reomve those with a history of heart problems. i think the idea of a study was to see the effects of alohol on healthy hearts.
yeah, pretty much we missed the boat on that one. but it's still here. get you some.
If you want to manipulate words to mean whatever you want them to mean so be it, but I think all rational people understand the point.
Alcohol = good for the heart but has drawbacks
grapes = good for the heart no drawbacks
Canta-thank you for being informed. TOO BAD some people LET one year of anatomy class go to their heads.
oh yeh and btw for those of you that can read-
http://vanderbiltowc.wellsource.com/...ent.asp?ID=577
PLEASE NOTE-THE AHA ALSO AGREES WITH CANTACUZENE.
Last edited by oblongmelon; 01-09-2003 at 06:45 PM.
are you referring to me? if so, let me remind you of your original post:]Originally posted by Cantacuzene If you want to manipulate words to mean whatever you want them to mean so be it, but I think all rational people understand the point.
by THESE BENEFITS, you are referring to the benefits listed in this study. now, please explain to me how you can get the benefits of ALCOHOL, which is what this study was about, from a glass of grape juice.Originally posted by Cantacuzene
NEWS FLASH: YOU CAN GET ALL THESE BENEFITS BY DRINKING A GLASS OF GRAPE JUICE.
yeah, pretty much we missed the boat on that one. but it's still here. get you some.
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