Debate Christianity

[AmRivlin]

IS GOD EVERPOWERFUL/ OVERPOWERFUL? Basically can God do anything he ever wanted?

"Can God make a rock that even he can't lift?"

The Rubeman Paradox
To big or can't make big

[oblongmelon]

I can't believe you guys are fighting over religion. Everyone has their own beliefs-whether anyone thinks it's right or wrong is quite simply no one else's business.

[LPMiller]

Originally posted by johnnymk
The Bible says "The fool hath said in his heart that there is no God."
There is one truth and one God. There can not be many truths or many gods. Fortunately, I believe in Jesus who said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life". "Anyone who believes in me has Everlasting Life".
Once you die, it will be too late to repent. It's the absolute biggest gamble that a person will take in rejecting Jesus as their Saviour.
"Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Either you trust him as your Saviour in this life or he will be your Judge on Judgement Day.
"And he will say on that day, Depart from me into Everlasting Darkness, for I never knew you."

Just because the bible says that doesn't make it true.
Dianetics says that Xenu is trying to control you through Thetans, but that doesn't make it true.
Hell, I'm a minister in the Universal Life Church; ergo, I pretty much have my own religion. Doesn't mean anything I say is true. Unless it's about the french.

It's Faith, which by it's very nature, can't be proven. Saying it's in the bible is like saying it's in the Enquirer. Doesn't mean anything.

That's why people need to get a grip, and enjoy their faith, without smacking others in the head with it. I know I do.

[johnnymk]

Well, if your church can get you past the grave, I would be mildly impressed. However, I know that all of the religions that have ever existed are unable to do that.
Jesus offers Eternal Life for free; You don't have to work
for it, you don't have to obey the Ten Commandments, you don't have to give up anything and you don't have to prove anything to God. That's the reason it's called the Gospel, or good news. He knew we had no way out of the dilemma of facing death, so he died in our place. It's free, free, free for the asking!

[jase71]

You know all the other religions in the world are unable to get you past the grave, but Christianity can?

How many times have you died? And to die once as a member of each religion, wow. I'm impressed. All that just to see which one was right.

Frankly, picking a religion is a lot like betting on a horse race. You can suspect who's going to win, you can hope who's going to win, but just like a horse race, you won't really KNOW until the end of the race. So you pick the best you can, and have faith that you're right.

Which is why arguing over religion seems a little silly to me. Everyone believes they are right with all their heart. Who would knowingly pick the "wrong" religion?

But ultimately, we won't find out until we each kick the bucket and see for ourselves.

Basically, anyone who claims to have all the answers, but hasn't personally died yet to find out is just talking smack.

[fakesurfers]

Originally posted by jase71


Which is why arguing over religion seems a little silly to me. Everyone believes they are right with all their heart. Who would knowingly pick the "wrong" religion?

What about the Scientologists? Even they have to suspect it's a load of manure.

I'm going for the Bart Simpson method, a lifetime of sin and then the easy deathbed conversion, recantation.

No muss, no fuss.

I think Jebus and I will have a good laugh about the legions of suckers who did it the hard way.

[johnnymk]

What if you get hit by a car(driven by John Travolta or Tom Cruise) and you don't have time to recant?

[ironchef]

Originally posted by johnnymk
Well, if your church can get you past the grave, I would be mildly impressed. However, I know that all of the religions that have ever existed are unable to do that.

does that include christianty?

Jesus offers Eternal Life for free; You don't have to work for it, you don't have to obey the Ten Commandments, you don't have to give up anything and you don't have to prove anything to God. That's the reason it's called the Gospel, or good news. He knew we had no way out of the dilemma of facing death, so he died in our place. It's free, free, free for the asking!

wow, i can't believe you just said that.

you, my friend, have just outlined the very basis for why i won't ever subscribe to a christian belief.

How, how, how! can you promote ANYTHING by saying that the most basic and fundamental laws of it don't have to be followed? How?! You call this good news - living a morally defunct life, playing Pascal's cute little wager, just claiming to believe in something in the off chance that it might be true?!

What kind of God is this that I don't have to prove anything to him? Why the hell would I worship something that by your explanation is no better than myself? Why worship something that doesn't value the good in me? Hmm?

It's a fear-mongering establishment. You live your life in fear of death, you face death with the fear of judgement. You subjegate yourself to the whims of a ghost and damn yourself and others for having the brief glimpses of life without fear. Now is the only life worth living.

I value life. I value the good in people. I value the things that I can experience now. I don't ask for sacrifices and don't make them.

And let's talk about sacrifice. God sacrificed Jesus, yes? People sacrifice money for the good of the poor. Folks used to sacrifice animals to the old god in the bible. Do you know what a sacrifice is? A sacrifice is giving up that which you value for something that you don't value, or value less. What kind of light does that cast on the relationship of God to us? Us to God? Us to others? This is the basis of your religion and your morals.

If there is a God, I hope she's a Judge sitting in a court of law. Maybe she'll look at each person and say, "You there, you lived by your own conviction and acted with your own preservation and interest as your motives. You didn't claim to act for the benefit of others or claim to value life when all you really wanted was a lofty home in the grave. You demonstrated a love for life and for that you will be rewarded."

[jase71]

Well said, Ironchef.

Christianity often seems too much like an exclusive country club to me. You're either a member, and thus a step above everyone else, or you're not a member, and damned in their eyes.

If there is a God, I would hope he/she would judge us each by our individual merits, by our actions, by what is in our hearts, and NOT by whether we were "Members of the Club".

Frankly, if "Membership in the Club" is the sole determiner of acceptance, I'm not sure I'd want to get in.

[DeepTrout]

Originally posted by jase71

Christianity often seems too much like an exclusive country club to me. You're either a member, and thus a step above everyone else, or you're not a member, and damned in their eyes.

Can't we all just get along?

[johnnymk]

If you live by the law, you will be judged by the law. Also, if you believe in a God who weighs your supposedly good deeds against your supposedly bad deeds, you still wouldn't make it. Fortunately, Jesus fulfilled the Law whwn he died, and he accepts those who believe in his free gift of Salvation. If you want to prove what a decent guy you are to God, please try, but it's not going to please God.

[sbp]

"Christianity often seems too much like an exclusive country club to me. You're either a member, and thus a step above everyone else, or you're not a member, and damned in their eyes." Most Christians are also made fun of and looked down upon by the much of the left as ignorant bigots.

[Edited by sbp on 05-02-2001 at 12:06 PM]

[ironchef]

Originally posted by johnnymk
If you live by the law, you will be judged by the law. Also, if you believe in a God who weighs your supposedly good deeds against your supposedly bad deeds, you still wouldn't make it. Fortunately, Jesus fulfilled the Law whwn he died, and he accepts those who believe in his free gift of Salvation.

What law are we speaking of, here? Your Christian laws, which operate off the premise that you're to practice something which by your very nature of being human you can't practice? Or human laws, which judge people on a (purportedly) rational basis?

We're born sinners, according to Christianity. Then left to try to follow Jesus and his perfection, but can't do so because we're human. Sounds like Hell should be a lot fuller than Heaven if that's the case.

If you want to prove what a decent guy you are to God, please try, but it's not going to please God.

Are you speaking for God now, Johnny? What is it God wants from me?

[ironchef]

Originally posted by sbp
Most Christians are also made fun of and looked down upon by the much of the left as ignorant bigots.

[Edited by sbp on 05-02-2001 at 12:06 PM]

How'd you get politics involved in this?

And I noticed you removed atheist from your original comment. Are you stating that all leftists are also atheist heathens? Or are all atheists flaming liberals?

[sbp]

"And I noticed you removed atheist from your original comment. Are you stating that all leftists are also atheist heathens? Or are all atheists flaming liberals?"Yup it was edited. Can't forget about Reverend Jesse "Lovedaddy" Jackson and Reverend Al.
Most atheists are of the leftist persuasion.

[jase71]

Originally posted by sbp
Most Christians are also made fun of and looked down upon by the much of the left as ignorant bigots.

And much of the left is made fun of and looked down on by the right as "liberal weenies" and "bleeding heart liberals" (or much worse) for their beliefs.

It's not a political issue of left and right, and it's not something specific to Christianity. It occurs in many religions. Christianity is the subject of this thread, however.

I distrust anyone or anything that claims to have all the answers, and the ONLY answers to such important questions.
Anyone who claims to have ALL the answers is selling something.

[sbp]

"And much of the left is made fun of and looked down on by the right as "liberal weenies" and "bleeding heart liberals" (or much worse) for their beliefs." Nah. Just some of them. And just because a person is a liberal weenie doesn't mean that person is bad at heart or a bigot.

[ironchef]

Originally posted by sbp
Yup it was edited. Can't forget about Reverend Jesse "Lovedaddy" Jackson and Reverend Al.
Most atheists are of the leftist persuasion.

Hehe, the good reverends! Certainly can't forget about those two shining examples of good christians not following God's basic laws.

Those two are certain to go straight to heaven!

[Y2J]

The question of the relative values of law and faith was not and is not simply a matter of opinions. It is a life-and-death problem for both Judaism and Christianity.

Judaism resolutely maintained that deed was paramount; that only action could express faith and attitudes. Christianity firmly held that faith was supreme; that deeds enacted as religious observances were inimical to right faith and served to divert man from his ordained goals.

The salient example and root cause of this clash was the persistent assertion by Judaism that a man could never become a Jew without circumcision, which is the mark of the covenant, the external sign of the inner transformation. The new Christians at the turn of the millennium could not expect to convert pagans if they were to insist upon circumcision as an absolute prerequisite. They then proceeded to declare it completely unnecessary, and even counterproductive to the religious life of a Christian, which demanded a man's soul, not his practice.

Until this point in the life of the new religion, the Jewish Sages had regarded their views as untenable, absurd, even un-Jewish, but they explicitly considered these Jewish "Christians" as sectarians, remaining within the fold of Judaism. Now, with the Christian annulment of the requirement of circumcision, they ruled that rejecting a Torah-required practice could not be countenanced and that the endorsers of this idea could no longer be considered within the ambit of the Jewish religion. No longer were they merely backsliding Jews; they were public betrayers who perverted the faith and then abandoned it.

The repudiation of Torah and the claim to possess a successor superior to it have been the contentions of Christians from the very beginning. The "good news" of the apostles was chiefly that the chains of the "law" had been lifted and superseded by faith. Paul's attacks against the law in Judaism are fundamental to Christianity.

The law was the first impediment inherited from Judaism and it had to be jettisoned as obsolete and even harmful. Whereas Judaism holds that ethics and morality are preserved by the law, Christianity contends that they are bludgeoned by the law. The dispute continues to this very day; it is the reason for the canard, glibly repeated by multitudes of Christians, that the "Old Testament" emphasizes a God of revenge and the "New Testament" emphasizes a God of love.

That view will not withstand a moment's glance at the history of religious wars, which will quickly demonstrate whether it was law or faith that preserved the spirit of love.

The law, therefore, will forever be the strongest element of contention between Judaism and Christianity, for its existence spells the negation of Christianity and its abrogation the negation of Judaism.

In fact, far from being enslaved by the law, Jews were enamored with it.

The law, so much criticized by its daughter faith as severe and unforgiving and identified with the "dead letter," is mayim chayim, refreshing, life-restoring, living waters to Jews; the sweetness of honey and milk, the joy and strength of wine, and the healing power of oil. It is an "elixir of life" that brings healing to all.

[LPMiller]

Originally posted by sbp
"And I noticed you removed atheist from your original comment. Are you stating that all leftists are also atheist heathens? Or are all atheists flaming liberals?"Yup it was edited. Can't forget about Reverend Jesse "Lovedaddy" Jackson and Reverend Al.
Most atheists are of the leftist persuasion.

Prove it.


You can't, because it is in fact not true.

[sbp]

Originally posted by LPM

Originally posted by sbp
"And I noticed you removed atheist from your original comment. Are you stating that all leftists are also atheist heathens? Or are all atheists flaming liberals?"Yup it was edited. Can't forget about Reverend Jesse "Lovedaddy" Jackson and Reverend Al.
Most atheists are of the leftist persuasion.

Prove it.


You can't, because it is in fact not true.

Its not? How many atheists have you heard of that were conservatives?

[LPMiller]

plenty. Being fiscally conservative doesn't always mean being religious. Wanting a strong military doesn't have to mean a belief in god.

I also know very devout liberals.

You always make a mistake when you paint with a wide brush, and yes, I realize saying always is the same mistake. heh.

[ProMinx]

I just have to say that I love German Superman's name...
That and I am a believer...
ProMinx

[sbp]

I said most athetists were of the leftist persuasion not all.

Its true being of the rightist persuasion does not mean a person is religous. A person can be agnostic like the good man marrying my younger sister at the end of this month.

"I also know very devout liberals."Absolutely there are liberals who are devoutly religous.

[Edited by sbp on 05-02-2001 at 06:40 PM]

[VACILLO]

Ok this will probaly be one of the hardest things you will ever do But I urge you to pray This may be seem foolish to do if you don't believe In God But think about it, it won't hurt or harm you. And you may just come to find the most comfort and peace you can ever find.
Ask and you will recieve an answer Believe I did.
But Don't My Word for it.
Look in James chapter one Verse 5

{"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."}

Here are some thoughts and ideas I believe in.
I believe in God. And I know he lives.
I believe God is perfect. He is perfect, all-wise, all powerfull, mericeful, Kind and Just
I believe God is Our father in Heaven. I Believe That we are created in his image
I believe that We are Children of our Father in Heaven. Think about that, Just Think how great a Thought it is to think I am a Child of God! A God that Love's and Care for me.
I believe That God, Has a Greater Plan,
I believe God Loves us, ALL of us, He wants us to do well, To progress, To be Happy.
I also Believe he wants us to be more like him , to return to him,
We have the Potential To be like God,
I believe the Plan He has, was prepared to bring us joy in this life and eternal Life with Him.

Here are some Scriptural Resources I hope You will Read.
Mosiah 4:9 (" Believe in God, ... Believe that he has all wisdom, and power}
Genesis 1:26-27 {"God Created Man in his own Image"}
Matthew 5:48 {"Be Ye therefore perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect"}
Acts 17:24-29 {"We are the Offspring of God"}
Romans 8:16 {"We are Children of God"}
Also look here
2 CORINTHIANS 13:1 {".... In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established"}
John 10:14-16 {"Christ visits His other Sheep"}
"2 NEPHI 25: Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy•.
This comes from Scriptures I Read and Believe in. It is Called
"The Book of Mormon Another testament of Jesus Christ"
Which I believe to be another witness of Jesus Christ after the resurrection in America

I also Believe That Part of his Plan Is Freedom to choose,
I believe he allows us to our own decisions and learn from them,
Though Jesus Christ's Sacrifice and Resurrection,
We Can Over Come the effects of sin and all Men will live again after mortal death.
We Can Be Forgiving.

John 14:15 {"If ye love me. Keep my Commandments"}
1 Nephi 11:32-33 {"Jesus Christ was Slain for the Sins of the world"}

Knowledge is power Read The Bible.
Hope All is well
Best Regards All
Vacillo

[xsiled]

hey i got an idea lets all stop argueing and fallow bob dole's way to complete a goal. just lose ; )

[johnnymk]

We are not all Children of God; we are all creatures of God. Check your Bible. Only those who are born again are Children of God.

[DeepTrout]

Originally posted by xsiled
hey i got an idea lets all stop argueing and fallow bob dole's way to complete a goal. just lose ; )

[mrbaseball]

Just a thought...
A lot of you speak of how God should judge us based on our merits, how we've lived our lives, how sincere our convictions may have been. But does it strike you that morality can differ very dramatically across different cultures and varying historical frameworks? What exactly is a "good" life? According to who and why should I accept this voice of authority? That's where everything gets so problematic... what's your standard for morality? From where does it come... and please don't say, "we all know what's right and wrong". I live in the heart of LA, and I've worked with and I've conversed with a wide range of people and let me tell you, a sense of ethics is not the same for everyone.
If there is no God and no real ultimate basis for morality... on what basis do I encourage a disheartened and very disillusioned teen to not kill or rob or swindle? The threat of punishment, societal standards? Trust me, they scoff at that idea... as it is, so many are suffering under the law (both justly AND unjustly); they figure they might as well get what they can while they can.
How many of you actually believe there is no real and ultimate "right" and "wrong"... don't be so quick to raise your hand. Isn't it wrong to rape a woman or to molest a child? Of course it is. But why? Sure our sense of morality keeps society in order but is that all it is? Morality is solely a pragmatic concern? So there is nothing inherently "good" or "evil"? What is practical for one society may be impractical for another all depending on what this "practicality" is based upon. Even when judging the societies of the past and present that we deem "immoral", we can't forget that their actions, however repugnant to us, were practical to them, be it only for the domination/exploitation of the weak, the survival of their group, or even a high value they've placed on hedonism.

So there must be a standard that transcends practical concerns. Now I'm getting redundant but... what is that standard?

Just a few thoughts. This is definitely a springboard for the issue at hand - religion, God, Christianity.

[CornMonkey]

no matter how hard either side tries to argue, there will always be more and more "points" that are brought up to argue about... just drop the subject...especially if this is to be debated through this medium. this discussion won't get anywhere but piss people off.

but to my amazement, i was surprised that someone actually dug all the way back in the database to revive this thread. now my question is...WHY? that's all, if some of you have actually read the original posts, you'll probably know where i stand.

my current stance? "it's not worth my time to talk about it."