<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bires:
The fool has said in his **heart** there is no God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, a person who chooses not to believe in god says there is no god. Here, your just calling me a fool because I'm an athiest. I don't appreciate that very much.
This is the off topic version of the Free Christian CD thread on got deals.
Please don't DEBATE Christianity. It will never get anyone anywhere. It only causes hurt feelings and hardened hearts. Jesus didn't debate the church leaders. He lived a pure life and taught righteousness and they came to him.
The fool has said in his **heart** there is no God.
Lieutenant Junior Grade
Bires, how can you say something logical like "lets not debate Christianity" (Since we all know its going to cause a thread that will be 50 messages long...with NO results or changed minds), and THEN go and DEBATE it!!!!
If you really want to stop a thread from degenerating into rhetoric we've all heard before, then don't go on and on about Jesus. This reminds me of the little kids i tutor. They each try to quiet the rest of the class down by going "SHHHHHHH", and of course this results in 30 kids shooshing each other loudly...which anyone can tell you is louder than hell. If you say something to everyone else, make sure it applies to you as well. it called Justice.
[This message has been edited by Chief Broom (edited 05-28-2000).]
Lieutenant Junior Grade
Hey German Superman, what does your name mean? At first I thought it was refering to the white supremacist idea from Germany. Hitler called the white germans "supermen" (ubermensch) and he called Jews the opposite (undermensch??.. sorry a little rusty on this).
Haha I hope you're talking about Nietzsche's Superman instead. Maybe Shaw's?
No I just wanted a unique name, and since I speak german I wanted german something. So I put the first thing that poped into my mind. Which was superman. I'm not affliated with Nazis in any way. At least Not anymore.
First thing that came to your mind that is German ?
I'd have chosen "Frankfurter" or "Sauerkraut"
Then again I'm hungry
oops, another brain fart!
well, here's my two cents.
i am presently a buddhist, and this is my philosophy on ALL religions:
(now, this is much easier for me to explain in person, but since i can't i'm trying my best to make this clear, so please bear with me.)
look at the part of your body that's attached to the end of your wrist. what's that called? "hand" right? well, i know nothing about french, so can someone tell me what's the word for "hand" in french? but before you do, let me tell you. that's WRONG! because no matter what you say, i know that it's called "hand", so it doesn't matter what you call it in french. it's WRONG! there is only ONE right word for it is, and always is, "hand".
so, here's where you jump out of your chair, get your glocks, get your cars, and do whatever you can to tell me that there's more than one way to say "hand". whether it's in french, or spanish, or korean, or any language that you know). so who's right?
for those that speak spanish, they'll tell me that since i'm in southern california, spanish is like the main language here, next to english, therefore, spanish can't be wrong. they'll tell me that in spanish, it's "mano".
for those that speak chinese, they'll tell me that since one of the largest group of the world's population is the chinese, the chinese people has got to know what they're talk about, and in mandarin, it's "so".
for those that speak french, they'll tell me that since i don't know any french, how can i say that the french word is wrong? in french, it's " " (can someone help me fill in the blank?
then, just to back up everyone's theories, each person will take out their dictionary, and look up the word in their language to show me that i'm wrong.
so who's wrong here? NOBODY. am i right that the body part attached to the end of your wrists is called the "hand"? YES. but am i right to assume that that's the ONLY way to say it? NO. is it true that in spanish it's called "mano"? YES. is it true that in mandarin, it's called "so"? YES. will those words appear in each of the respective dictionaries? OF COURSE! so who's to say that this way is wrong or right? it's about perspective.
that's how i feel about christianity. (and if this offends anyone, i apologize. this is from MY own experiences, which is that the MAJORITY of the Christians i've met and dealt with has this point of view.)
i see "god" just as a 3-letter word. it's what's inside your heart that counts. and that's called something different to each different individual. and each person will have their own specific "dictionary" to look up, for the christians, it's the bible, for the buddhists, it's the scriptures, for the jews, it's the torah, for the muslims, it's the koran.
so just like in your own language, you know with absolute certainty that the way to say "hand" is " " (fill your own blank). you know that your own religion is 100% "right". but you don't know enough about other languages to say that their way is wrong. and if you don't know anything about the other religion, i don't think you have the right to say that it's wrong either.
see, if we look at religion as a whole, it's all basically the same thing: this life is not perfect, there is a more perfect life, and the way to the more perfect life is by following the path of a specific teacher/prophet/whatever you want to call it. if you ask someone from another religion what they believe, i bet you they believe in basically the same thing. don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, and do good things (ok, satanists excluded, i don't know. i could be wrong here too) and if you follow those basic principles, then you'll go to a better place.
see we're all the same. we just choose to call it something different. so instead of seeing the differences, why don't we look at the similarities, and it'll be a step towards a better tomorrow.
(this is something i've put a lot of thought into, so please let me know what you think about it. i'm thinking of writing it out and submitting it somewhere or something. but i need to know if that makes sense.
woah, long post, but good post. I agree with you roniman
Actually, that doesn't work with 1 religion, Christianity. Christianity must either be right (and everyone else wrong) or someone or everyone else right (and Christianity wrong). This is simply because of the claims that Christianity makes. Jesus said "I am the ONLY way". With a statement like that, there is no wiggle room, either He was right or He was wrong. Period.
Another common misconception about Christianity is the virtues. Christianity says that heaven is everlasting togetherness with God, and Hell is everlasting separation from Him. How do you get to live eternally with this Christian God? One of two ways:
1. Measure up to His standards. Meaning: live a completely spotless life.
2. Choose to be forgiven of the mistakes you did make.
According to Christianity, there is no other way. So leading a "good" life or doing "good" things or being basically "good" or "moral" plays no part in making it to heaven.
So basically it comes down to this. Someone is wrong. Sound divisive? It is. I'm not trying to make it any more so; it simply is. Christianity can only be wrong and social/cultural relativism right, or social/cultural relativism wrong and Christianity right.
Well, apex, I think you just backed up what I was saying.
Let me ask you: when you were in grade school learning english, or whatever primary lang you learned. I don’t think that the teacher said, “well, this is an “orange”. Oh yeah, it’s also known as a “juee-tzu” in mandarin, and in spanish it’s “naranja” they just taught you one way. so, now you will go down the rest of your life knowing for absolute that it’s an “orange”. However, as you grow, and learn, you will find out that there’s more than one way of calling it an orange. So do you doubt the english way? No. But it will also broaden one’s horizon to know that there’s more than just one way of saying it. And, at the same time, still have complete faith in the english way.
I’m not here to argue with you about the finer details. I’m not here to argue at all. So I’m asking you not to go into specific details, but rather, see the bigger picture with me. You’re right, in christianity, there is no room for anything else being right. But let me ask you this, do you really think that my religion, or ANY religion says, “well, you’re a buddhist, but if you want to freelance as a muslim…go right ahead”?
What you said about the virtues. Actually, they’re not unique. I’m talking about the fact that when you typed them out, you had the word “God” in your mind. So let’s use the virtues that you typed, and if you put the word “Buddha” in your mind, you have basic buddhism virtues. (eg. Virture #1? In your mind, measuring up to “His” standards…. By “His” you mean God’s, right? Well, that’s exactly the same in buddhism, but instead of thinking “His” as “God’s”, we think it’s “Buddha’s”.)
What I’m trying to say is this. What you call heaven, in mandarin it’s called “tien-tang”. So, if I go to “tien-tang”, does that mean I don’t go to heaven? No, I don’t think so. so let’s take it another step. How do you know that when we call nirvana, that it doesn’t mean the same thing? Just b/c Buddha isn’t spelled “G-O-D”, how do you know it doesn’t MEAN the same thing? If you know nothing about buddhism, or any other religion, how do you know that we’re not similar?
Most, not all, christians think I’m trying to say that there’s no differences in these religions. So they try everything possible to point out the little differences. But they never bother to listen to what I’m truly saying: “yes, there are differences, and if you focus on ONLY the differences, how does that make you any different than the people who sees only the differences between black people and white people?” so now people think that I’m attacking them. That’s is NOT true either, I’m trying to say, “see the differences, b/c that will help distinguish btw you and i. But ALSO see the similarities, b/c that will unite you and i.”
I honestly believe in all religions b/c I think that they’re doing the same thing: trying to make us all better beings. (the methods may be a bit different, but the GOALS are the same). I’m not asking you to believe what I believe. I’m only HOPING that you will try to understand what I believe. B/c only then, will people see, that in the end, we ALL believe in the same things. (That means, for the christians, we’re already ALL “christians”)
According to Christianity, Jesus must be the most egotistical, conceited and arrogant man that ever lived. Assume I were to start an organization, let's say The Humanitarian Club, which consisted of all nice people who went around and did good things all the time and never sinned (whatever I define sinning as). However in order to get into this club you had to worship me and accept me as your lord. How well you think that'd go over?
Isn't that essentially what Christianity is? A club of people who purport to do good and who are required to worship one man in order to join the club and get the prize? If god were REALLY good and perfect, and not an egomaniac as it seems, would he really need to require people to worship him? Wouldn't he want good people in heaven regardless of their beliefs or willingness to grovel???
I think that's the part I understand the least about Christianity.
I think the misunderstanding is at the point of holiness. If we have a God that is perfect, then it would be against His nature to be in the presence of imperfection. However, He has given us a way to be forgiven of such. It is our choice to accept it or not. The most common mistake I see is viewing the situation from the point of human morality. When you are trying to get into God's realm, whose yardstick do you think you have to measure up against? Other humanity or God's? God, by definition is perfect and to live with Him, we must measure up to His standards. Luckily for us, we have a God that is merciful enough to offer us forgiveness if we fail. We only need to accept His offer.
Oh yeah, actually there are a lot of religions that claim that they are but 1 of many ways. You'd be surprised.
snatchface- it's all about not being selfish. That's how you can stand it. Don't be selfish.
And it's not worship me or die. it's you're going to hell! Luckily I have sacrificed myself to save you. Now you have a choice. You choose.
hey roniman, i would like to disagree with your comment about not really a right/wrong with religions. actually, i agree on that, but would i would like to say is that there is more truth in Christianity than in others. But don't get me wrong. I'm not posting with the intentions of sounding like "i'm right and you're wrong." just my two cents. but can someone answer me this question? It seems like a lot of non-Christians try to refute Christianity when they have a lot of misconceptions about it. i would say that most people learn about other religions, i.e. buddhism, hindu, judaism, etc, in school, but to keep Christianity out of it, they don't talk about it. therefore many people do not fully understand it. then how can they try to refute when not properly educated? i hope i don't sound contradictory because i have learned aobut other religions, read books, and listend to speakers. thanks! =)
"I think. Therefore, I pray."
just to reply to snatchface's last post:
when you describe your club like that, then no, i would not like to join. after all, what do i benefit from it? ...nothing. besides, i don't even know you. aside from being around super friendly, perfect people, why should i join your club, let alone allow myself to worship you...? (no offense to you, of course...just trying to make a point)
but there is a difference b/w your club and this "club" we call Christianity. with Christianity, i believe that Jesus paid a debt that no human could possibly repay. because of this, we get to have a RELATIONSHIP with God--both here on earth and in heaven. Jesus died so that we may live...eternally.
contrary to what you say about God being egotistical, etc., Jesus taught a life of humility. He taught that "the first shall be last and last shall be first." essentially, God doesn't force us to be bowing and repeating chants 24/7 to worship Him. Christians also worship in not only obeying the will of God but also by serving others. in Matthew 25:40, Jesus says "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."
and yes, God not only wants good people but all people to enter into heaven. Romans 3:23, 24 says "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." you see, there is only one way to God--and that's through Jesus. and once this is accepted into one's heart, one can't help but to worship God BECAUSE He is good and perfect.
but for more professional opinions on this and other matters, i suggest you check out this site:
veritas is latin for "truth." recently, UCLA held a Veritas conference with speakers discussing topics such as:
"A Testable Creation Model"
"Does God Exist and Does It Matter?"
"Is there only one way to God?"
the speakers of these topics are considered to be leaders in their respective fields. fortunately, each topic is downloadable on real audio format (hope you have a fast connection).
[This message has been edited by CornMonkey (edited 05-30-2000).]
[This message has been edited by CornMonkey (edited 05-30-2000).]
Nice argument, but it doesn't hold water. According to Christianity, I could be perfect - nevere ever do anything "wrong" (as the Christian Church defines wrong), spend my whole life volunteering and generally being "righteous" (a truly awful word). However, if I still did not accept Jesus as my "lord," then I am damned. Can you deny that?
I could be a perfect "Christian" my whole life and on the day before I die renounce Jesus as my lord and spend eternity in hell.
If Jesus were truly humble why would he state that his opinion was the only corect one? Why would he demand that people worship him or go to hell?
And why oh why would anyone want to spend eternity with someone who thinks that they are perfect and their opinion is the only right one??? I can't stand being around people like that for even a few minutes in this life!
That's the beauty of it all Snatchface. It is impossible to ever think yourself as perfect unless you are delusional. Everyone is subject to criticism from within and without. Christians believe that God will forgive our sins, and that is what Christ came to earth for. He sacrificed hiself so that anyone who would believe in him would recieve a free ticket to paradise.
Lieutenant Junior Grade
There is only one god and all religions stem from and revolve around him(no gender). You can use or believe whatever and whichever and whomever you please but you are always going to the same entity, so let your heart be the middleman. All religions of the world have more in common than they do differences and those diffs are all man thought and taught. Man has changed this original teaching of Oneness and developed out of numerous mutually antagonistic sects. You don't believe if you don't can't communicate with God directly. This subject cannot be debated successfully if you are not open minded, which most people are not, because most people are not independent thinkers. God is above our petty arguments and the only eason he wants us to worship him is as aknowledgement not to hurt his creatures and help each other instead so as not to help satan win his argument that he can lead us to hell more easily than God can lead us to heaven. But that will never happen so don't worry about it.
Lieutenant Junior Grade
One question about Christianity. If it is all about forgiveness and mercy, then why did God kill so many people? An entire city was destroyed for being wicked. God even destroyed the entire world with a flood. Almost all of Leviticus is about punishments for sins. They usually involve stoning, burning, some sort of death. Is this forgiveness??? I know that a lot of the bible is about forgiveness, love, etc. But not ALL of it. Death and destruction do not equal forgiveness and mercy in my mind.
If we are to live up to God, and his ideal I think this is our basic plan. We should tempt some people with an unexplainable rule. When they break the rule, we will take away everything they have and punish them for all of eternity ok? If someone makes us angry, by not believing that we are their masters...then we should set them on fire!!! Or better yet, we will drown them for 40 days. Hey...this is sounding alot like the slavery in the Old South....UT OH!
all major religions have similarities, yes. these similarities can be praying, fasting, doing good works, dietary restrictions, etc. and of course, there are differences. but the one and only noteworthy difference is that Jesus said something that no other religious leader ever said... in Luke 5:24 Jesus said "the Son of Man has power upon earth to forgive sins."
no matter what we can do to try to "feel better" about themselves, we cannot cleanse ourself of our own sin. only Jesus can do that. in fact, He already did. and if there was any other way to for us to have a relationship with God, then i'm sure Jesus would have laid them out all on the table for us to choose.
"It is constant torture for me that I am still so far from Him whom I know to be my very life and being. I know it is my own wretchedness and wickedness that keeps me from Him." --Mahatma Ghandi
Lieutenant Junior Grade
In all those stories of death and destruction of a certain people, in every sacred book, it has been mentioned that they were given several chances, by sending them prophets and books, to mend their ways and ask for forgiveness but they refused and so the Almighty decided to make an example of them for us to learn from. He still hits us with his wrath but some people can't place it because Gods stick doesn't make a sound.
That's the beauty of it??? Forgive me, but I see absolutely NO beauty in the fact that according to your religion a multiple axe murderer/rapist can make it to heaven and a generally good person will burn in hell - all determined by belief in Christ. That's not beautiful...its horrible. I can't believe people actually think that way.
Your parents, whom (I assume) love you and raised you and would give you anything they had will be roasting in hell if they do not believe in Christ while you will be living it up with Son of Sam and Jeffery Dahmer if they repent on the day before they die. Very, very far from beautiful. And certainly not the work of a "good" god.
Strong point. Also more truth about the cruelty and egotism of the christian god. Of course all that bad stuff happened to people who did little more than mess up their own lives (adultery, etc.) whereas today we have much worse people and their god does nothing. Just more scary stories to frighten people into reaching for their wallets when the contribution bowl comes their way.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snatchface:
Your parents, whom (I assume) love you and raised you and would give you anything they had will be roasting in hell if they do not believe in Christ while you will be living it up with Son of Sam and Jeffery Dahmer if they repent on the day before they die. Very, very far from beautiful. And certainly not the work of a "good" god.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
dude, don't be such an ass.
a common misconception that people have (including Christians) is that people think one sin is worse than the other. sure, in our society, lying isn't as bad as rape or murder.
but to understand the very nature of God, we must first understand that we are all sinners and that all sin is the same in God's eyes. God is holy. and God can't be holy if he's surrounded by things that aren't holy (holy by definition means "set apart").
it saddens me to think that my non-Christian friends/co-workers (some of whom are even nicer than some Christians that i know) will indeed go to hell. the point of the matter is that we can't live our lives trying to do good expecting to go to heaven automatically. our judicial system has punishments to fit the crime. with God, there is one judgement to fit one crime. and unless you're forgiven, you're going to face judgement whether or not you're a boyscout or charles manson. a bit unfair? yes... but if you look at the history of what God has tried to do for mankind according to the bible, it is due to our own stubborness that forces us w/ the circumstances we have today.
God is a God of love and mercy AS WELL as a God of wrath and judgement because He is a Holy God. let me ask you this: if God were to intervene in the our lives today the way He did in the days of old, would you recognize God's "message" and turn to Him for forgiveness?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CornMonkey:
it saddens me to think that my non-Christian friends/co-workers (some of whom are even nicer than some Christians that i know) will indeed go to hell<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here is my beef with people like you. You think your all special thinking your going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell. It's not your place to say who goes where. it's your god's place to say who goes where. So stop saying who is or who isn't going to hell, it makes you look like an idiot and hurts other peoples feelings.
Here is my beef with that philosophy of thinking: Your being a dumbass putting yourself on a pedastal. your human, your imperfect, you've sinned. by your little statement there, your going to hell. so shut up you ignorant, hypocritical bastard.
Reading through this topic and that gargantuan whale back on the Deals page, I am struck by how rhetorical and scripted some of these responses seem. For better or worse, I see many of the Christians writing posts that would do their religious teachers proud. That either speaks to the teachers' instructive ability or the mindlessness of some belief.
Equally striking here is the persistent intolerance of Christian belief. Apex said it best: "Christianity must either be right (and everyone else wrong) or someone or everyone else right (and Christianity wrong)." That tenet is one of the best methods cults use to inculcate and retain their membership; that's exactly what Christianity would be called today if it was a lot smaller.
To finish up a wholly poorly planned post, I cannot understand the dichotomy between perfection/imperfection. If this God is so tolerant, why is he/she intolerant of imperfect things being around him/her? If he/she was so all loving, would he/she not automatically, unconditionally love humans? So many inconsistencies, perhaps just in the way we understand.
Take a chill dudes. Don't get aggravated. Its a sensitive topic and we're all here to learn each other's minds on it. At least that's why I'm here debating this - because I have no clue what goes on in religious people's minds and I find it interesting to hear how they reconcile all of the inconsistencies in the rules that they base their lives on.
Remember, there's no right or wrong here. The Christians will die thinking that they are going to heaven and if they're wrong, what will it matter? The rest of us can plan on enjoying the company of the worms, and that's no different than any of our ancestors for the past 100 million years.
I meant no offense with the parents thing. It was just an example, and according to Christianity, a correct one. It is easy to make generalizations when they dont apply to people we love.