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Thread: moved: 250 mpg Hybrid Vehicle

  1. #1
    Admiral guiseppewv's Avatar
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    250 mpg Hybrid Vehicle

    Experimental Hybrid Cars Get Up to 250 Mpg
    CORTE MADERA, Calif. - Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.
    It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret — a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel.

    Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car.

    Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb — all for about a quarter.

    He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have gotten up to 250 mpg.

    They have support not only from environmentalists but also from conservative foreign policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism through their gas guzzling.

    And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are beginning to take notice, too.

    So far, DaimlerChrysler AG is the only company that has committed to building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially frowned on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them.

    "They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what they can do about increasing fuel economy."

    The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of gas and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a day, he says, he gets 80 mpg.

    "The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference."

    Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost their cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power.

    Gremban rigged his car to promote the nonprofit CalCars Initiative, a San Francisco Bay area-based volunteer effort that argues automakers could mass produce plug-in hybrids at a reasonable price.

    But Toyota and other car companies say they are worried about the cost, convenience and safety of plug-in hybrids — and note that consumers haven't embraced all-electric cars because of the inconvenience of recharging them like giant cell phones.

    Automakers have spent millions of dollars telling motorists that hybrids don't need to be plugged in, and don't want to confuse the message.

    Nonetheless, plug-in hybrids are starting to get the backing of prominent hawks like former
    CIA director James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney, President Reagan's undersecretary of defense. They have joined Set America Free, a group that wants the government to spend $12 billion over four years on plug-in hybrids, alternative fuels and other measures to reduce foreign oil dependence.

    Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy, said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern governments that support terrorism.

    "The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are bent on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said.

    DaimlerChrysler spokesman Nick Cappa said plug-in hybrids are ideal for companies with fleets of vehicles that can be recharged at a central location at night. He declined to name the companies buying the vehicles and said he did not know the vehicles' mileage or cost, or when they would be available.

    Others are modifying hybrids, too.

    Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said.

    University of California, Davis engineering professor Andy Frank built a plug-in hybrid from the ground up in 1972 and has since built seven others, one of which gets up to 250 mpg. They were converted from non-hybrids, including a Ford Taurus and Chevrolet Suburban.

    Frank has spent $150,000 to $250,000 in research costs on each car, but believes automakers could mass-produce them by adding just $6,000 to each vehicle's price tag.

    Instead, Frank said, automakers promise hydrogen-powered vehicles hailed by
    President Bush and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, even though hydrogen's backers acknowledge the cars won't be widely available for years and would require a vast infrastructure of new fueling stations.

    "They'd rather work on something that won't be in their lifetime, and that's this hydrogen economy stuff," Frank said. "They pick this kind of target to get the public off their back, essentially."
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050813/...brid_tinkerers

    Interesting.

  2. #2
    I'd take a 250 mpg Sports Car A Surbuban.. seems the hardest to do


  3. #3
    Admiral guiseppewv's Avatar
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    Could you imagine a 250 mpg vehicle? You could go 3000+ miles on a tank. You would just about have to change the oili and rotate the tires every time you filled up. Plus look at all of the world political ramifications. The middle east would not have the power that they hold today, among other things.

  4. #4
    Chief of Naval Operations attgig's Avatar
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    after hitting 49 bucks at the tank today.... DANG, i could use this.

  5. #5
    Admiral kimchicowboy's Avatar
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    yeah. i don't want to drive for the rest of the week. won't be hard since i don't work and have no social life. hahah
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  6. #6
    Admiral guiseppewv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimchicowboy
    yeah. i don't want to drive for the rest of the week. won't be hard since i don't work and have no social life. hahah
    Sorry, kimchi, but this car can solve some of the world's energy problems but I am not sure it will solve your work and social life problems. j/k

    I thought you were going to go to grad school?

  7. #7
    Chief of Naval Operations johnnymk's Avatar
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    I heard of a hybrid getting the equivalent of 80 or 90 mpg when plugged in. But 250 mpg? Don't hold your breath.

    It's just like the story that the auto companies had a 100 mpg carburetor that they didn't want to bring to the market because of threats from the oil industry.

    I do see a future in diesel hybrids, assuming the environmentalists can live with the idea.
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    Rear Admiral Lower Half Cubsfan's Avatar
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    Wouldn't the 250mpg only last a very short time? I'd assume that if you took a long trip, that you'd use up all of the charge you stored up by plugging it in real quick, and then it'd be back to functioning like a normal hybrid, right?

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    Admiral Merlin's Avatar
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    Yeah but the vast majority of driving that I do is commuting back and forth to work. At under 10 miles eash way I think I would go forever on one tank. Now if that were the case I would not mind in the least that my long distance driving (actually done rarely) only got average mileage.

    Added bonus - You could now take advantage of those few parking lots with good parking spots and outlets for electric cars.
    :monkey:

  10. #10
    Hmm...I don't mind the 250mpg but it doesn't say what the trade off is. Yes you put more money into it by using better or more batteries, but is that the only thing? How's the performance and did you have to chuck some deadwood with a horse jockey at the helm.

    We need more hybrid vehicle choices and eventually something other than gasoline as a fuel. I don't think we'll get away from oil because doesn't that also make plastics?

  11. #11
    Chief of Naval Operations InfiniteNothing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubsfan
    Wouldn't the 250mpg only last a very short time? I'd assume that if you took a long trip, that you'd use up all of the charge you stored up by plugging it in real quick, and then it'd be back to functioning like a normal hybrid, right?
    Your fuel economy varies with how often you plug it in. 250 mpg is very misleading. By that logic a full electric car gets infinite mpg. He should have done gallon equivalents. But I'm all for this technology. Probably better than hydrogen.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcs328
    Hmm...I don't mind the 250mpg but it doesn't say what the trade off is. Yes you put more money into it by using better or more batteries, but is that the only thing? How's the performance and did you have to chuck some deadwood with a horse jockey at the helm.

    We need more hybrid vehicle choices and eventually something other than gasoline as a fuel. I don't think we'll get away from oil because doesn't that also make plastics?
    The trade off is your electric bill goes up by about what your gas bill went down by.
    Last edited by InfiniteNothing; 08-15-2005 at 09:42 AM.
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals.

  12. #12
    What's Da Pho*? bachviet's Avatar
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    Sounds good but what about the batteries? It would cost a bundle to replace and recycle those.
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  13. #13
    Chief of Naval Operations InfiniteNothing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnymk
    I do see a future in diesel hybrids, assuming the environmentalists can live with the idea.
    Small chance but might happen. Tougher federal sulfur standards and the NOX reduction research Ford is doing could make this happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by bachviet
    Sounds good but what about the batteries? It would cost a bundle to replace and recycle those.
    As always emission standard parts get longer warrenties (at least 8 years I think, 10 in Cali). In 10 years you'll be able to aford a much cheaper even better battery due to better technology. (It's like your 486 crapping out on you now)
    Last edited by InfiniteNothing; 08-15-2005 at 08:08 AM.
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  14. #14
    Admiral Merlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs328
    Hmm...I don't mind the 250mpg but it doesn't say what the trade off is. Yes you put more money into it by using better or more batteries, but is that the only thing? How's the performance and did you have to chuck some deadwood with a horse jockey at the helm.
    Well batteries are very heavy so I would expect it to handle a bit more like a tank with the added weight.
    :monkey:

  15. #15
    Admiral guiseppewv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnymk
    I heard of a hybrid getting the equivalent of 80 or 90 mpg when plugged in. But 250 mpg? Don't hold your breath.

    It's just like the story that the auto companies had a 100 mpg carburetor that they didn't want to bring to the market because of threats from the oil industry.

    I do see a future in diesel hybrids, assuming the environmentalists can live with the idea.
    I guess you didn't read the whole article:

    Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said.

    University of California, Davis engineering professor Andy Frank built a plug-in hybrid from the ground up in 1972 and has since built seven others, one of which gets up to 250 mpg. They were converted from non-hybrids, including a Ford Taurus and Chevrolet Suburban.

  16. #16
    Chief of Naval Operations InfiniteNothing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin
    Well batteries are very heavy so I would expect it to handle a bit more like a tank with the added weight.
    Li-ion batteries are pretty light weight.
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals.

  17. #17
    I imagine these Li-ion batteries to be the size of car batteries and not 100 cell phone batteris linked up in parrallel. I'll wait for the Di-Lithium versions to come out so I can cruise along impulse speed and occassionaly go to warp speed when needed. Make it so!!

  18. #18
    Chief of Naval Operations InfiniteNothing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs328
    I imagine these Li-ion batteries to be the size of car batteries and not 100 cell phone batteris linked up in parrallel. I'll wait for the Di-Lithium versions to come out so I can cruise along impulse speed and occassionaly go to warp speed when needed. Make it so!!

    Oh they're much bigger than that. When I say they are light weight I mean compared to current hybrid batteries which don't weigh down the cars all that much. Compared to the car, it's pretty small. (I think the insight only weighs like 1700 lbs)
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals.

  19. #19
    Admiral Merlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteNothing
    Li-ion batteries are pretty light weight.
    Right but how many would need to be added? I am of course no expert in this area but I do know that adding lots of batteries is adding weight. That and the loss of cargo/passenger space are the only tradeoffs I could see. And the cost.
    :monkey:

  20. #20
    Admiral guiseppewv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin
    Right but how many would need to be added? I am of course no expert in this area but I do know that adding lots of batteries is adding weight. That and the loss of cargo/passenger space are the only tradeoffs I could see. And the cost.
    In the case of the Prius mod they replace the existing batteries with Li-Ion batteries so the space issue is nil and the weight issue actually decreases.

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    Admiral Houdini's Avatar
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    I'm a little worried about facing a crisis 10-20 years down the road due to the zillions of toxic batteries. They're not going to be the easiest to get rid of. Toxic dumping site anyone?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Houdini
    I'm a little worried about facing a crisis 10-20 years down the road due to the zillions of toxic batteries. They're not going to be the easiest to get rid of. Toxic dumping site anyone?
    true...at the rate we buy new cars, they'll be tons of those batteries waiting to leak. It'll be worse than all those CRT monitors we have and dumped for LCDs.

  23. #23
    Admiral guiseppewv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houdini
    I'm a little worried about facing a crisis 10-20 years down the road due to the zillions of toxic batteries. They're not going to be the easiest to get rid of. Toxic dumping site anyone?
    That is true. I have had this discussion with some environmentalists and they are always like "wow, we never thought about that". I think if they could find a way to recycle them we would be a lot better off.

  24. #24
    Rear Admiral Lower Half jstreet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houdini
    I'm a little worried about facing a crisis 10-20 years down the road due to the zillions of toxic batteries. They're not going to be the easiest to get rid of. Toxic dumping site anyone?
    I'm with you on that, and also -- from where is the power coming that charges the batteries?

    I'm all for reducing emissions, but what if in burning less gas in the car we end up burning my coal down at the power plant?

    Does anyone know which ends up being more "fuel-efficient" or better for the environment?

  25. #25
    Chief of Naval Operations InfiniteNothing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houdini
    I'm a little worried about facing a crisis 10-20 years down the road due to the zillions of toxic batteries. They're not going to be the easiest to get rid of. Toxic dumping site anyone?
    Battery recycling. It's not really a big deal. It's not even as bad (I imagine) as regular car battery recyling. Drain it, neutralize the acid, precipitate toxics if any, pour down a drain, recycle scrap metal. The Li+ batteries aren't near as bad for the enviornment as the old mercury/lead batteries. NMH batteries aren't terrible either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_Williams
    I'm with you on that, and also -- from where is the power coming that charges the batteries?

    I'm all for reducing emissions, but what if in burning less gas in the car we end up burning my coal down at the power plant?

    Does anyone know which ends up being more "fuel-efficient" or better for the environment?
    Yes it's electrically generated (which is why that 250 mpg is misleading) but here's the thing... in some parts of California at least, you can pay an extra $0.35 /kWh and your energy will be derived from a cleaner blend (methane, wind, water etc). So if you do these two things in conjunction, over all, it's much better for the planet. And that's really the beauty of plug in hybrids and full electrics... it's very easy to change how they are powered... it requires no engine modifications or expensive drivetrain improvments. For instance if nulclear fusion became a profitable energy source tomorrow, we could switch over what provides the energy in an instant. Secondly... powerplants and generating from big sources is generally more efficient and clean than many small scale gas motors.
    Last edited by InfiniteNothing; 08-15-2005 at 01:08 PM.
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  26. #26
    Admiral guiseppewv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_Williams
    I'm with you on that, and also -- from where is the power coming that charges the batteries?

    I'm all for reducing emissions, but what if in burning less gas in the car we end up burning my coal down at the power plant?

    Does anyone know which ends up being more "fuel-efficient" or better for the environment?
    I would say that the coal fired plant is more efficient than a car's engine at converting a natural resource to energy. Not sure about the "better for the environment" question.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteNothing
    Yes it's electrically generated (which is why that 250 mpg is misleading) but here's the thing... in some parts of California at least, you can pay an extra $0.35 /kWh and your energy will be derived from a cleaner blend (methane, wind, water etc). So if you do these two things in conjunction, over all, it's much better for the planet. And that's really the beauty of plug in hybrids and full electrics... it's very easy to change how they are powered... it requires no engine modifications or expensive drivetrain improvments. For instance if nulclear fusion became a profitable energy source tomorrow, we could switch over what provides the energy in an instant. Secondly... powerplants and generating from big sources is generally more efficient than many small scale gas motors.
    I agree with IN. It is electrically generated but it most of the power plants in the us are run off of domestically produced fuel. In my opinion anything that ends our dependence on foreign oil and is better for the environment is a good thing.

    Also, I agree with IN that one of the beauties of a hybrid that has the ability to "plug-in" is the fact that the "plug-in" energy can be derived from any source. You could setup a solar array at your house and supply the vehicle's batteries with energy from the sun if you wanted to.

  27. #27
    Admiral Houdini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteNothing
    Battery recycling. It's not really a big deal. It's not even as bad (I imagine) as regular car battery recyling. Drain it, neutralize the acid, precipitate toxics if any, pour down a drain, recycle scrap metal. The Li+ batteries aren't near as bad for the enviornment as the old mercury/lead batteries. NMH batteries aren't terrible either.
    I'm not sure what the products are of expended Li+ batteries. While some parts can be recycled, those toxic precipitants must be stored or used for something else. Right now it's not a big deal, as there aren't that many hybrids, but even if the hybrid engine percentage increased to, say, 20%, that's a lot of batteries. I'm not against hybrid technology. Capturing energy during braking, etc., is great. I wouldn't mind having one right now, as my car only drinks premium, and I do a lot of city driving. Still, there are disadvantages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_Williams
    I'm with you on that, and also -- from where is the power coming that charges the batteries?

    I'm all for reducing emissions, but what if in burning less gas in the car we end up burning my coal down at the power plant?

    Does anyone know which ends up being more "fuel-efficient" or better for the environment?
    I've seen the debate go both ways on this one. Switching to electricity or even hydrogen results in movement, not elimination, of pollution to the area where the power is generated. Some areas of the country have great hydroelectric sources and plenty of wind. Others do not. Nuclear is clean, with the exception of the end products. If only we could harness the tides...

  28. #28
    Chief of Naval Operations InfiniteNothing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houdini
    I'm not sure what the products are of expended Li+ batteries. While some parts can be recycled, those toxic precipitants must be stored or used for something else. Right now it's not a big deal, as there aren't that many hybrids, but even if the hybrid engine percentage increased to, say, 20%, that's a lot of batteries. I'm not against hybrid technology. Capturing energy during braking, etc., is great. I wouldn't mind having one right now, as my car only drinks premium, and I do a lot of city driving. Still, there are disadvantages.
    I don't see it as a serious disadvantage. The amount of waste in a battery is a pretty small percentage of the weight of the battery and is dwarfed by the waste of junking a car in general and most of the waste is recycled back into creating new batteries using tried and true methods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Houdini
    Switching to electricity or even hydrogen results in movement...
    Any movement away from the middle east is a huge plus in my book.
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals.

  29. #29
    Admiral Airencracken's Avatar
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    Think home windmill to charge your plug in or solar panel. Pretty. 1337.
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